tacom structured barrel

[Tx_Aggie]

I think a .22lr could be a neat application for this barrel. Especially when you consider the cost for the structured barrel and the barrel life a .22lr has.

Any benefits would have to be VERY tangible in order for it to make sense on something like a .300NM, when you have only ~1,000 rounds of barrel life.

I'm not saying these do or don't "work", that I don't know. But if I was a prospective buyer, the benefits would have to be readily apparent in order for it to make economic sense in most applications.

TACCOM seems to place a lot of stake in their assertion that the structuring process allows the barrel to dissipate heat quickly (while apparently throwing no mirage off the surface).

Does a precision 22lr get warm enough for something like that to be beneficial?

 

[oldrifleman]

From a pure engineering point of view there are multiple opportunities for improvement and failure. The degree of benefit, or degradation is up for debate ( this thread is proof). Harmonics definitely affect accuracy, barrel tuning is a tried and often proved example. The structured barrels bore semi random holes in a thick barrel that alter the ability of the barrel to transmit vibrations through the barrel basically removing nodes from the equation. Other holes and the above mentioned bored holes increase surface area which multiplies the heat transfer ( hot to cold) reducing thermal stress. The holes also serve to change the stress profile of the solid in that it is no longer the smooth, homogeneous stress relieved, tube that came from the original artist. All of these from a theoretical engineering point of view offer advantages to the shooter. They also pose concerns about what these particular changes would do to a precise stress relieved starting place. John does do stress management using CAD computational techniques to predict the results and pinpoint the best cuts to make.
I am open to the concepts and the science, I remain optimistic that he can make positive contributions, I just wait for additional proof and real life touched examples ( yes I know there some here that own them) with some level of experimental data supporting the positive outcomes we want to see.

 

[kthomas]

TACCOM seems to place a lot of stake in their assertion that the structuring process allows the barrel to dissipate heat quickly (while apparently throwing no mirage off the surface).

Does a precision 22lr get warm enough for something like that to be beneficial?

TACCOM makes a lot of claims in regards to what this barrel can do.

Yeah, the heat one isn't going to really matter on a .22lr.

 

[The_Steward]

I mean, the axial holes create air pockets, and air is a worse thermal conductor than steel. So you're actually reducing the cross sectional area for thermal transfer there. I know they claim convection through those holes, but I'd have to see some decent thermal testing data to buy that.

I think if stiffness-to-weight and heat dissipation were the big important issues affecting accuracy, you'd already see F-class, PRS, and top bench guys using flutes. They don't. So....

 

[Tx_Aggie]

From a pure engineering point of view there are multiple opportunities for improvement and failure. The degree of benefit, or degradation is up for debate ( this thread is proof). Harmonics definitely affect accuracy, barrel tuning is a tried and often proved example.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on barrel tuners being “proven” to do much of anything other than separating folks from their hard earned cash.

 

[oldrifleman]

“I think if stiffness-to-weight and heat dissipation were the big important issues affecting accuracy, you'd already see F-class, PRS, and top bench guys using flutes. They don't. So....”

I totally agree, but I am open to the possibility.

“We’ll have to agree to disagree on barrel tuners being “proven” to do much of anything other than separating folks from their hard earned cash.”

Sorry I meant to put quotes on the word proven. In the world of rimfire BR they are everywhere and many do believe in them. They have never worked for me, but many do believe.
I was trying to say if you read the thing that as a theoretical engineering problem is very interesting, but no one has shown the physical proof that it works.

 

[Zebulon]

I think a .22lr could be a neat application for this barrel. Especially when you consider the cost for the structured barrel and the barrel life a .22lr has.

Any benefits would have to be VERY tangible in order for it to make sense on something like a .300NM, when you have only ~1,000 rounds of barrel life.

I'm not saying these do or don't "work", that I don't know. But if I was a prospective buyer, the benefits would have to be readily apparent in order for it to make economic sense in most applications.

My structured barrel is in .308 1:8 twist

Have 450 rounds though it
210 smk and 215 Berger hybrid

It is shooting really well

It was a rifle I have for a mile

It has had no issue with this (24x24 in target )

I have found it very different in recoil impulse and as per bore scope? At 550 rounds it is anecdotally showing less fire cracking and less carbon build up as compared to
Shilen barrel 1:10 with 550 rounds

They both shoot well

But the recoil impulse is def different

Also noted

The Tacom hq barrel doesn’t see my o have any poi shift at 100 yards when shooting lighter heavier and etc bullets

 

[Tx_Aggie]

“I think if stiffness-to-weight and heat dissipation were the big important issues affecting accuracy, you'd already see F-class, PRS, and top bench guys using flutes. They don't. So....”

I totally agree, but I am open to the possibility.

“We’ll have to agree to disagree on barrel tuners being “proven” to do much of anything other than separating folks from their hard earned cash.”

Sorry I meant to put quotes on the word proven. In the world of rimfire BR they are everywhere and many do believe in them. They have never worked for me, but many do believe.
I was trying to say if you read the thing that as a theoretical engineering problem is very interesting, but no one has shown the physical proof that it works.

Ah, understood. That makes sense.

 

[John Baker]

From what can tell, the major claim of Structured Barrels (SB) is that a SB is stronger and stiffer than a conventionally profiled barrel of equivalent weight. This is, essentially, the same claim made by fluted barrel proponents. I’m not convinced that a straight blank is a good control, as it would have significantly more mass. But, a fluted barrel and a conventional barrel (both weighing the same as a SB) would be good candidates for controls. Throw in any other barrels/profiles that you like. But, maintaining the barrel weight and length across some subset of controls would seem to eliminate some variables.

All of the barrels tested directly against the Structured barrel will be: same length, same weight, same bar stock, sequentially rifled.
We will look at prefits also of other shapes as required- with weight being the primary control.

 

[John Baker]

Christ you make things complicated. When something needs a wall of text for a simple question, it make you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

Eliminate the damn variables by running two barrels on one action. Then you have no variables outside of the barrel.

Here's another genius idea, you point out about 4 different tests that were done, how about sharing those? Are potential customers supposed to scour the internet for them? Finally, just share the data, I don't need to read another wall of text about how a Boeing airplane flies or dumb shit about a 90% failure rate masking an 86% failure rate masking an 84% failure rate.

A simple change of a barrel on an action will totally invite "a poop on session". First point being - you had different shooting conditions.
Chris Baxter- .22 target test multiple loads, Eley, Brian Boone... mil (do not have permission).

 

[oldrifleman]

A simple change of a barrel on an action will totally invite "a poop on session". First point being - you had different shooting conditions.
Chris Baxter- .22 target test multiple loads, Eley, Brian Boone... mil (do not have permission).View attachment 8490817View attachment 8490818

Agreed there will ALWAYS be discrepancies in the data as just changing barrels disturbs the equation as each barrel is different ( even 2 consecutively cut instances will react differently). The trick is to document enough information to overcome the uniqueness. May pick three candidate barrels shoot all three for say 10 groups each taking measurements of temperature and such. Perform the conversion on 2 of them and retest all three. You now have data on control subjects to compare.
I know this is will not satisfy everyone, but you now have the START of a controlled test structure.
As always, have a wonderful weekend!

 

[John Baker]

I think a .22lr could be a neat application for this barrel. Especially when you consider the cost for the structured barrel and the barrel life a .22lr has.

Any benefits would have to be VERY tangible in order for it to make sense on something like a .300NM, when you have only ~1,000 rounds of barrel life.

I'm not saying these do or don't "work", that I don't know. But if I was a prospective buyer, the benefits would have to be readily apparent in order for it to make economic sense in most applications.

I totally agree on the economic sense- don't shoot me for getting off subject- as the car increases in speed the number of buyers decreases faster.
I cannot speak to the person who notes no more life as we cannot find this person- if you are reading this please contact us- we have multiple 300Norma's way in the 2000round count and still going. In fact one is on its way to Hat Creek in a couple of weeks- its round count is over 2,500 (mil life) . Life is one of the reasons we use our 3rd party customer as our base. It would be very difficult for us to accumulate 9k rounds on 300cals.
We want to hear about short life and non-shooters. We need to know the "why's". We have absolutely had barrels totally shoot out in 250rds (rifling is gone) - all specific materials and company (I think the company got a bad batch of material), and 6mm run 4000rds plus.
We are putting a fair amount information concerning mass, stiffness, and thermal conductivity on our social media. Heat is directly proportional to life- in my opinion.