tacom structured barrel

[Tx_Aggie]

I think a .22lr could be a neat application for this barrel. Especially when you consider the cost for the structured barrel and the barrel life a .22lr has.

Any benefits would have to be VERY tangible in order for it to make sense on something like a .300NM, when you have only ~1,000 rounds of barrel life.

I'm not saying these do or don't "work", that I don't know. But if I was a prospective buyer, the benefits would have to be readily apparent in order for it to make economic sense in most applications.

TACCOM seems to place a lot of stake in their assertion that the structuring process allows the barrel to dissipate heat quickly (while apparently throwing no mirage off the surface).

Does a precision 22lr get warm enough for something like that to be beneficial?

 

[oldrifleman]

From a pure engineering point of view there are multiple opportunities for improvement and failure. The degree of benefit, or degradation is up for debate ( this thread is proof). Harmonics definitely affect accuracy, barrel tuning is a tried and often proved example. The structured barrels bore semi random holes in a thick barrel that alter the ability of the barrel to transmit vibrations through the barrel basically removing nodes from the equation. Other holes and the above mentioned bored holes increase surface area which multiplies the heat transfer ( hot to cold) reducing thermal stress. The holes also serve to change the stress profile of the solid in that it is no longer the smooth, homogeneous stress relieved, tube that came from the original artist. All of these from a theoretical engineering point of view offer advantages to the shooter. They also pose concerns about what these particular changes would do to a precise stress relieved starting place. John does do stress management using CAD computational techniques to predict the results and pinpoint the best cuts to make.
I am open to the concepts and the science, I remain optimistic that he can make positive contributions, I just wait for additional proof and real life touched examples ( yes I know there some here that own them) with some level of experimental data supporting the positive outcomes we want to see.

 

[kthomas]

TACCOM seems to place a lot of stake in their assertion that the structuring process allows the barrel to dissipate heat quickly (while apparently throwing no mirage off the surface).

Does a precision 22lr get warm enough for something like that to be beneficial?

TACCOM makes a lot of claims in regards to what this barrel can do.

Yeah, the heat one isn't going to really matter on a .22lr.

 

[The_Steward]

I mean, the axial holes create air pockets, and air is a worse thermal conductor than steel. So you're actually reducing the cross sectional area for thermal transfer there. I know they claim convection through those holes, but I'd have to see some decent thermal testing data to buy that.

I think if stiffness-to-weight and heat dissipation were the big important issues affecting accuracy, you'd already see F-class, PRS, and top bench guys using flutes. They don't. So....

 

[Tx_Aggie]

From a pure engineering point of view there are multiple opportunities for improvement and failure. The degree of benefit, or degradation is up for debate ( this thread is proof). Harmonics definitely affect accuracy, barrel tuning is a tried and often proved example.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on barrel tuners being “proven” to do much of anything other than separating folks from their hard earned cash.

 

[oldrifleman]

“I think if stiffness-to-weight and heat dissipation were the big important issues affecting accuracy, you'd already see F-class, PRS, and top bench guys using flutes. They don't. So....”

I totally agree, but I am open to the possibility.

“We’ll have to agree to disagree on barrel tuners being “proven” to do much of anything other than separating folks from their hard earned cash.”

Sorry I meant to put quotes on the word proven. In the world of rimfire BR they are everywhere and many do believe in them. They have never worked for me, but many do believe.
I was trying to say if you read the thing that as a theoretical engineering problem is very interesting, but no one has shown the physical proof that it works.

 

[Zebulon]

I think a .22lr could be a neat application for this barrel. Especially when you consider the cost for the structured barrel and the barrel life a .22lr has.

Any benefits would have to be VERY tangible in order for it to make sense on something like a .300NM, when you have only ~1,000 rounds of barrel life.

I'm not saying these do or don't "work", that I don't know. But if I was a prospective buyer, the benefits would have to be readily apparent in order for it to make economic sense in most applications.

My structured barrel is in .308 1:8 twist

Have 450 rounds though it
210 smk and 215 Berger hybrid

It is shooting really well

It was a rifle I have for a mile

It has had no issue with this (24x24 in target )

I have found it very different in recoil impulse and as per bore scope? At 550 rounds it is anecdotally showing less fire cracking and less carbon build up as compared to
Shilen barrel 1:10 with 550 rounds

They both shoot well

But the recoil impulse is def different

Also noted

The Tacom hq barrel doesn’t see my o have any poi shift at 100 yards when shooting lighter heavier and etc bullets

 

[Tx_Aggie]

“I think if stiffness-to-weight and heat dissipation were the big important issues affecting accuracy, you'd already see F-class, PRS, and top bench guys using flutes. They don't. So....”

I totally agree, but I am open to the possibility.

“We’ll have to agree to disagree on barrel tuners being “proven” to do much of anything other than separating folks from their hard earned cash.”

Sorry I meant to put quotes on the word proven. In the world of rimfire BR they are everywhere and many do believe in them. They have never worked for me, but many do believe.
I was trying to say if you read the thing that as a theoretical engineering problem is very interesting, but no one has shown the physical proof that it works.

Ah, understood. That makes sense.

 

[John Baker]

From what can tell, the major claim of Structured Barrels (SB) is that a SB is stronger and stiffer than a conventionally profiled barrel of equivalent weight. This is, essentially, the same claim made by fluted barrel proponents. I’m not convinced that a straight blank is a good control, as it would have significantly more mass. But, a fluted barrel and a conventional barrel (both weighing the same as a SB) would be good candidates for controls. Throw in any other barrels/profiles that you like. But, maintaining the barrel weight and length across some subset of controls would seem to eliminate some variables.

All of the barrels tested directly against the Structured barrel will be: same length, same weight, same bar stock, sequentially rifled.
We will look at prefits also of other shapes as required- with weight being the primary control.

 

[John Baker]

Christ you make things complicated. When something needs a wall of text for a simple question, it make you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

Eliminate the damn variables by running two barrels on one action. Then you have no variables outside of the barrel.

Here's another genius idea, you point out about 4 different tests that were done, how about sharing those? Are potential customers supposed to scour the internet for them? Finally, just share the data, I don't need to read another wall of text about how a Boeing airplane flies or dumb shit about a 90% failure rate masking an 86% failure rate masking an 84% failure rate.

A simple change of a barrel on an action will totally invite "a poop on session". First point being - you had different shooting conditions.
Chris Baxter- .22 target test multiple loads, Eley, Brian Boone... mil (do not have permission).

 

[oldrifleman]

A simple change of a barrel on an action will totally invite "a poop on session". First point being - you had different shooting conditions.
Chris Baxter- .22 target test multiple loads, Eley, Brian Boone... mil (do not have permission).View attachment 8490817View attachment 8490818

Agreed there will ALWAYS be discrepancies in the data as just changing barrels disturbs the equation as each barrel is different ( even 2 consecutively cut instances will react differently). The trick is to document enough information to overcome the uniqueness. May pick three candidate barrels shoot all three for say 10 groups each taking measurements of temperature and such. Perform the conversion on 2 of them and retest all three. You now have data on control subjects to compare.
I know this is will not satisfy everyone, but you now have the START of a controlled test structure.
As always, have a wonderful weekend!

 

[John Baker]

I think a .22lr could be a neat application for this barrel. Especially when you consider the cost for the structured barrel and the barrel life a .22lr has.

Any benefits would have to be VERY tangible in order for it to make sense on something like a .300NM, when you have only ~1,000 rounds of barrel life.

I'm not saying these do or don't "work", that I don't know. But if I was a prospective buyer, the benefits would have to be readily apparent in order for it to make economic sense in most applications.

I totally agree on the economic sense- don't shoot me for getting off subject- as the car increases in speed the number of buyers decreases faster.
I cannot speak to the person who notes no more life as we cannot find this person- if you are reading this please contact us- we have multiple 300Norma's way in the 2000round count and still going. In fact one is on its way to Hat Creek in a couple of weeks- its round count is over 2,500 (mil life) . Life is one of the reasons we use our 3rd party customer as our base. It would be very difficult for us to accumulate 9k rounds on 300cals.
We want to hear about short life and non-shooters. We need to know the "why's". We have absolutely had barrels totally shoot out in 250rds (rifling is gone) - all specific materials and company (I think the company got a bad batch of material), and 6mm run 4000rds plus.
We are putting a fair amount information concerning mass, stiffness, and thermal conductivity on our social media. Heat is directly proportional to life- in my opinion.

 

[232593]

PM Replied

Did you test it? If so how did it perform?

 

[sneakypayload]

My structured barrel is in .308 1:8 twist

Have 450 rounds though it
210 smk and 215 Berger hybrid

It is shooting really well

It was a rifle I have for a mile

It has had no issue with this (24x24 in target )

I have found it very different in recoil impulse and as per bore scope? At 550 rounds it is anecdotally showing less fire cracking and less carbon build up as compared to
Shilen barrel 1:10 with 550 rounds

They both shoot well

But the recoil impulse is def different

Also noted

The Tacom hq barrel doesn’t see my o have any poi shift at 100 yards when shooting lighter heavier and etc bullets

The “less fire cracking” is anecdotal. You’d have to cut and examine the barrels with much more than a borescope to tell a difference. Also not all stainless is created equally.

 

[OREGUN]

Did you test it? If so how did it perform?

I’m here for this. When @padom comes in with his experience, can we end this thread?

 

[sneakypayload]

I’m here for this. When @padom comes in with his experience, can we end this thread?

A single user on a forum isn’t a real test, and neither is anecdotal random ramblings from people. When I can see actual controlled, peer reviewed studies that this is more “effective” all this is, is the 6.8 spc “has more stopping power” nonsense from a decade ago.

Dimpling barrels to save on weight and making stuff harmonically dead isn’t some new thing.

Barrels also get pulled or decommissioned because they do t hold certain standards. A straight contour barrel, m24 contour, etc will have the same amount of fire cracking and throat erosion if they shoot the same loads and are from the same manufacturer within a certain deviation.

If you run a 6bra at 2750 you’re gonna get to that 2500-3000 round mark on most quality steel barrels and still shoot within 1/2 - 3/4 MOA, whereas if you send a 6mm-300PRCAI down similar barrels you might burn up at 800 rounds if you’re shooting smaller bullets at 4000 fps.

 

[Zebulon]

The “less fire cracking” is anecdotal. You’d have to cut and examine the barrels with much more than a borescope to tell a difference. Also not all stainless is created equally.

Kreiger is the barrel manufacturer I used for this structured barrel

 

[OREGUN]

A single user on a forum isn’t a real test, and neither is anecdotal random ramblings from people. When I can see actual controlled, peer reviewed studies that this is more “effective” all this is, is the 6.8 spc “has more stopping power” nonsense from a decade ago.

Dimpling barrels to save on weight and making stuff harmonically dead isn’t some new thing.

Barrels also get pulled or decommissioned because they do t hold certain standards. A straight contour barrel, m24 contour, etc will have the same amount of fire cracking and throat erosion if they shoot the same loads and are from the same manufacturer within a certain deviation.

If you run a 6bra at 2750 you’re gonna get to that 2500-3000 round mark on most quality steel barrels and still shoot within 1/2 - 3/4 MOA, whereas if you send a 6mm-300PRCAI down similar barrels you might burn up at 800 rounds if you’re shooting smaller bullets at 4000 fps.

Yeah yeah but there’s not much credibility left in this thread. PADOM laid out an offer to run one and report. He (Dom) is more of a known quantity around here than any of the shills, trolls, and fake accounts that this topic seems to bring out of the woodwork. So, no one asked about fire cracking and throat erosion ( not sure where you’re going with that) but having someone other than “not John Baker’s fake account” or some guy with what seems to be a personal vendetta against this Baker guy, weigh in with a comparison against his other experience, even if it is only N=1, would be worth more than this whole thread.

But I run my BRA at 2680.

 

[sneakypayload]

Yeah yeah but there’s not much credibility left in this thread. PADOM laid out an offer to run one and report. He (Dom) is more of a known quantity around here than any of the shills, trolls, and fake accounts that this topic seems to bring out of the woodwork. So, no one asked about fire cracking and throat erosion ( not sure where you’re going with that) but having someone other than “not John Baker’s fake account” or some guy with what seems to be a personal vendetta against this Baker guy, weigh in with a comparison against his other experience, even if it is only N=1, would be worth more than this whole thread.

But I run my BRA at 2680.

I'd agree with that.

 

[232593]

I’m here for this. When @padom comes in with his experience, can we end this thread?

Not my thread to end.

 

[padom]

I have NOT tested one of these barrels. John did reach out and offer to send a barrel to test. I have a backlog of items to test and review at the moment and the holidays just got in the way.

I will reach back out to John and hopefully I can get something tested in late Q1...

 

[mschroeder40]

Eric Cortina seems to like them.

 

[Maurygold]

he said they would be good for hunting. I don't think that's a compliment from a world-class f-class shooter.

I think he was being polite and not calling him out on the bullshit he's selling - which i wish he would have.

 

[Csafisher]

Eric Cortina seems to like them.

If that’s true he’ll be shooting one in f class soon. Which doubt.

Dude was like my barrel dampens harmonics so much it improves the recoil control on my 24lb braked rifle…… lmao

 

[mschroeder40]

I would like to try a 6.5 cm on my heavy bolt gun. It would be interesting to see if barrel life is extended and rapid shot dispersion reduced.

 

[mschroeder40]

he said they would be good for hunting. I don't think that's a compliment from a world-class f-class shooter.

I think he was being polite and not calling him out on the bullshit he's selling - which i wish he would have.

He was talking about the aspect that you could change bullet weight and fps and still be zeroed with different factory ammo. Which for a hunter does make it a lot easier to switch between loads for different applications.

 

[Csafisher]

He was talking about the aspect that you could change bullet weight and fps and still be zeroed with different factory ammo. Which for a hunter does make it a lot easier to switch between loads for different applications.

Are hunters going to lug around a big truck axle barrel like that?

 

[mschroeder40]

Run a 16" with a suppresor.

 

[mschroeder40]

Personally I like John's innovative thinking. Haters gonna hate! Just like Democrats @ Trump's speech last night.

 

[Maurygold]

He was talking about the aspect that you could change bullet weight and fps and still be zeroed with different factory ammo. Which for a hunter does make it a lot easier to switch between loads for different applications.

Um. That’s not how hunting work. Are you burner account for John?

Because the shit you’re saying also makes no sense

 

[mschroeder40]

Ok Pocahontas! I'm an AI bot. Lol

 

[232593]

I have NOT tested one of these barrels. John did reach out and offer to send a barrel to test. I have a backlog of items to test and review at the moment and the holidays just got in the way.

I will reach back out to John and hopefully I can get something tested in late Q1...

Were you able to get the barrel for that test?

 

[kthomas]

He was talking about the aspect that you could change bullet weight and fps and still be zeroed with different factory ammo. Which for a hunter does make it a lot easier to switch between loads for different applications.

There's pretty much no practical applications of this barrel for hunters.

And honestly it's bizarre that EC thinks hunters would benefit from this over match shooters, given his obsession with tuners.

 

[Maurygold]

There's pretty much no practical applications of this barrel for hunters.

And honestly it's bizarre that EC thinks hunters would benefit from this over match shooters, given his obsession with tuners.

I’m guessing John paid him to be on the show and he didn’t want to shit all over him.

You can see Eric wince when that clown starts talking about how the barrel mitigates felt recoil and that the chamber is the coldest part.

 

[sneakypayload]

There's pretty much no practical applications of this barrel for hunters.

And honestly it's bizarre that EC thinks hunters would benefit from this over match shooters, given his obsession with tuners.

This is what happens when two snake oil salesmen meet in real life.

 

[Maurygold]

This is what happens when two snake oil salesmen meet in real life.

This is such a stupid position to take.

If you don’t win national f-class matches you do not understand ballistics and shooting enough to call Eric a liar. The man is one of the best precision shooters in the country (proven) and uses tuners. If tuners are snake oil why arent you beating him???

 

[Csafisher]

This is such a stupid position to take.

If you don’t win national f-class matches you do not understand ballistics and shooting enough to call Eric a liar. The man is one of the best precision shooters in the country (proven) and uses tuners. If tuners are snake oil why arent you beating him???

So you have to win national matches to understand ballistics now? That’s pretty retarded. I’d bet Jerry Miculek could out shoot you with a hi point if you had your favorite pistol. I guess that means you don’t know shit about pistol shooting…..

 

[sneakypayload]

This is such a stupid position to take.

If you don’t win national f-class matches you do not understand ballistics and shooting enough to call Eric a liar. The man is one of the best precision shooters in the country (proven) and uses tuners. If tuners are snake oil why arent you beating him???

Because I literally understand highschool level probability and statistics. Y’all spend your money though.

 

[Maurygold]

So you have to win national matches to understand ballistics now? That’s pretty retarded. I’d bet Jerry Miculek could out shoot you with a hi point if you had your favorite pistol. I guess that means you don’t know shit about pistol shooting…..

you completely misquoted me, i said: "If you don’t win national f-class matches you do not understand ballistics and shooting enough to call Eric a liar"

Pistol shooting is about practice - ballistics is not. so that was irrelevant

I encourage anyone who knows more than Eric to go out without a tuner and beat him. Then you can call him a shill, but you'll be pretty shocked when you show up at that match and 90% of the shooters around you have these useless tuners on their guns and beat you.

Because I literally understand highschool level probability and statistics. Y’all spend your money though.

prove that intelligence and go beat Eric. If he has useless snake oil on his gun, he shouldn't be able to beat you while you use your high school math.

 

[Csafisher]

you completely misquoted me, i said: "If you don’t win national f-class matches you do not understand ballistics and shooting enough to call Eric a liar"

Pistol shooting is about practice - ballistics is not. so that was irrelevant

I encourage anyone who knows more than Eric to go out without a tuner and beat him. Then you can call him a shill, but you'll be pretty shocked when you show up at that match and 90% of the shooters around you have these useless tuners on their guns and beat you.



prove that intelligence and go beat Eric. If he has useless snake oil on his gun, he shouldn't be able to beat you while you use your high school math.

You’ve completely missed the point. If you actually think he only wins because he some stupid toooner on his rifle then you’re mistaken. Maybe a better analogy would be tiger beating you at golf with some kids clubs. He’s just better lol. If the guy wanted to sell more toooners he could easily conduct a test with some statistically significant samples sizes and prove us all wrong….. but he doesn’t. Hence the snake oil comments.

 

[Maurygold]

You’ve completely missed the point. If you actually think he only wins because he some stupid toooner on his rifle then you’re mistaken. Maybe a better analogy would be tiger beating you at golf with some kids clubs. He’s just better lol. If the guy wanted to sell more toooners he could easily conduct a test with some statistically significant samples sizes and prove us all wrong….. but he doesn’t. Hence the snake oil comments.

He proves you wrong every year he’s out there winning at national and international levels using a tuner. I’m not sure what better testing there could be.

Half the battle in f class is showing up with a gun that shoots tiny groups. He’s doing that with a tuner. He did it with a tuner for years before he sold one.

People who claim tuners don’t work are not well represented in national precision matches. I wonder why that is?

^ same is true for that tacom bullshit.

 

[Csafisher]

He proves you wrong every year he’s out there winning at national and international levels using a tuner. I’m not sure what better testing there could be.

Literally any test with some statistically significant samples ….. why hasn’t anyone done it?

 

[oldrifleman]

There are good shooters and then there are great shooters. Good shooters can win from time to time. Great shooters understand the art but also can use of what may seem to be small advantages to great advantage. Eric is one who knows how to shoot and read conditions, he also understands how to make things like a Tuner make a difference, same may be true for the TACOM barrel. Could Eric beat me using a rusty Savage, maybe not, but he can put together the pieces that will succeed.

 

[Maurygold]

Literally any test with some statistically significant samples ….. why hasn’t anyone done it?

Sounds like someone that’s never shot 20 rounds over an e target.

 

[moosemeat]

Just because EC can shoot and read conditions doesn't mean he knows more about shooting than everybody else. It means he's a amazing shooter. He should have called out the snake oil of that barrel.
I'm not weighing in on the tuner stuff. I don't believe they work but I can't prove either way.

 

[XP1K]

I think the most impressive thing to me from the video with cortina was the fact that 300 norma had a claimed 3,400 rounds on it and still shot better than moa.

And you have to admit, the ar's shot pretty impressive.

 

[sneakypayload]

I think the most impressive thing to me from the video with cortina was the fact that 300 norma had a claimed 3,400 rounds on it and still shot better than moa.

And you have to admit, the ar's shot pretty impressive.

Now that IS actually impressive. And if you can actually hold 3400 rounds of 300 Norma at 1 MOA through that barrel that’s the real value proposition.

 

[Edsel]

Just because EC can shoot and read conditions doesn't mean he knows more about shooting than everybody else. It means he's a amazing shooter.

Usain Bolt actually has a Postdoctoral Degree in Linear Hydrocarbons, and developed the compound used in the soles of his track shoes.

 

[jbell]

I have no skin in this game, I do not know John Baker, nor do I have anything to do with TACOM HQ. I have met him, looked at several of his builds, and briefly shot one of his barrels, but nothing to begin to form any opinion
at all. John and I think it was his son if I remember correctly were both very nice and humble, but they both rightfully so believe in their technology.

I am curious how many of the people here in this thread and the others that are shitting on both the technology and the people behind it have some real experience with John’s barrels. I keep coming back to these threads in hopes to hear from those people. I think everyone should have a voice and be heard but some of you guys are coming across not much different than those people who are so opposed to our rights as free men and women in this country (talking a lot of shit about a subject you have no real knowledge on).

I am not here to bash anyone, but some of these post makes it hard to have a real conversation about a technology that may or may not actually have merit. Maybe it’s 80% there and just needs a little refinement to be something of true value to our community, but with so much unjustified hate it may never get there. Or maybe this is a fruitless venture but to quote one of my favorite lines “a man is a fool not to push a suggestion as far as it will go”…

 

[Maurygold]

I have no skin in this game, I do not know John Baker, nor do I have anything to do with TACOM HQ. I have met him, looked at several of his builds, and briefly shot one of his barrels, but nothing to begin to form any opinion
at all. John and I think it was his son if I remember correctly were both very nice and humble, but they both rightfully so believe in their technology.

I am curious how many of the people here in this thread and the others that are shitting on both the technology and the people behind it have some real experience with John’s barrels. I keep coming back to these threads in hopes to hear from those people. I think everyone should have a voice and be heard but some of you guys are coming across not much different than those people who are so opposed to our rights as free men and women in this country (talking a lot of shit about a subject you have no real knowledge on).

I am not here to bash anyone, but some of these post makes it hard to have a real conversation about a technology that may or may not actually have merit. Maybe it’s 80% there and just needs a little refinement to be something of true value to our community, but with so much unjustified hate it may never get there. Or maybe this is a fruitless venture but to quote one of my favorite lines “a man is a fool not to push a suggestion as far as it will go”…

They make claims that defy logic and have no proof to support them.

the evidence supports they are making invalid claims. Because their barrels (which they claim are more accurate than any other barrel due to their structure) are not represented at all in precision sports after being out for 5+ years