Advanced Marksmanship Talk to me about terminal ballistics between 6.5 creedmoor and 7.62 nato

[tarheel7734]

I am very familiar with how the m118lr and the m80 ball effect tissue and how in real life how effective it is. My question is how does the 6.5 creedmoor compare.6.5 Creedmoor had less recoil, doubled hit probability at 1,000 meters, had a 33% longer effective range, retained 30% more energy at 1,000 meters, and had 40% less wind drift at 1,000 meters, but how does compare in tissue? Lets say for a hunting round. I know socom evaluated it to replace the 7.62.

 

[Tokay444]

Better.

 

[theLBC]

out to 500 yards the .308 is still going to have a small edge in energy (without knowing which exact ammo), but the 6.5CM is going to have the edge by 100-150ft/lbs at 1000 yds.

 

[chase723]

If you hit them in the head/neck/chest it’s trivial.

 

[W54/XM-388]

If you are hunting at 1000 yards, do the animals a favour and step up to something with a lot more power than either.

 

[theLBC]

If you are hunting at 1000 yards, do the animals a favour and step up to something with a lot more power than either.

i am hoping he really means how does the 6.5CM perform at hunting distances under 500 yards, in which case the 6.5CM is perfectly capable, but doesn't have as much of the ballistic advantages over a .308 or 7.62x51mm at those "reasonable" hunting distances unless there is a heavy or shifting wind.

 

[hlee]

Bullet construction and shot placement trump kinetic energy. A Nosler partition out of a 6.5 put in the lungs will be much more effective than m80 ball in the gut.

 

[Cheyenne Bodie]

Longer bullets will tend to open up more, and more easily. I don't know the numbers, but I'm pretty sure 6.5CM has a sectional density that shits on 308 given comparable loads.

 

[sea2summit]

A comparable 6.5 bullet to M118lr will perform better. Comparable to M80, not sure but I would think range will matter a lot because it’s smack dab middle of the road between the .223 and .30 so while the hole will be smaller the temporary channel will be more like 556.

 

[264win]

There isn’t much practical difference in terminal performance, unless you are talking about hunting larger animals at shorter ranges.
Then the 308 does have some advantage with 180-200 grain bullets

 

[db2000]

Not exactly what you’re comparing but relevant none the less.
6.5 PRC Berger 156 EOL 2950 fps 1410 ft/lbs
vs .300 Wby Mag 180 Accubond 3100 fps 1233 ft/lbs at 800 yrds respectively. Recoil is minimal compared to Wby Mag. Interested in real world experience. Thanks

 

[tarheel7734]

So say a 147gr eld match or 143gr eldx hunter vs a m118lr should fare pretty well?

 

[Newbie2020]

Bullet construction and shot placement trump kinetic energy. A Nosler partition out of a 6.5 put in the lungs will be much more effective than m80 ball in the gut.

As Yogi Berra said, In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

In truly ethical hunting circumstances (insert ongoing internet heated argument here), there’s a minimum sufficient terminal energy to drop large game. More is only better if you miss the vitals, and that leads to a whole different conversation.

 

[ScottDWallace]

The most lethal projectile I have ever hunted with was a 52gn .224" going 3850fps from a 22-250. Vitals shot would illicit a kick, two stride run, and then fall over DRT. You could calibrate a tape measure with it. Darnedest thing I've seen.

I now hunt with a 260Rem and have seen larger wound channels as compared to the 308 guys I hunt with. I can only speculate that the extra FPS allows for a more aggressive expansion and hydrostatic shock. Either way, they run a little further than the 22-250, but let's just say it's a short track job.

 

[hambandit]

ive taken deer with the following calibers, and reasonable hunting ranges: 243, 6.5cm, 270, 308, 30-06. shot placement > everything else, close second is a quality bullet designed to expand and kill. the 147 eldm is not that bullet. the jacket is thin and its more likely to fragment than expand reliably. this results in a messy kill or just a wound, neither of which are the ideal result when trying to kill something.

 

[sinister]

Dead is dead. Hit it in the right place and either 6.5 or 30 do their job. Lots of animals killed in Scandinavia and Europe using a 6.5.

Practical difference is minimal. You're going to have to handload or buy premium ammo for the difference (at distance) in tissue, terminal effect discounting placement.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

For the 6.5 my new bullet choice is the Speer 140gr Gold Dot bullet. The Gold Dot is used in their Lawman Line of LE ammunition, and features good accuracy and controlled expansion, so all that energy stays in the quarry. It is very similar to the bullet used in Federal Fusion Ammunition.

I've loaded up a bunch in my 260, but record heat (100-110+) and Covid issues keep me off the range. So far, SE AZ (Tucson) has had 95+ days of 100+ heat, closing in on the 99 day record.

Soon, though...

What you are sending is as important as what you are sending it with. Gold Dot is what I send when I want to send the very best...

Greg

 

[nagantguy]

Not to be snide at all; totally serious cause I once worried studies and wondered the same exact questions.
I just this AM killed a fairly large bodied 3.5 year old decent racked 8 Point with a bow inside 10 yards- and one lung top of heart and jugular vein were all damaged and he fell and went a total of 30 steps before falling over dead- would a 6.5 or 308 or pulse rifle or 50/110 have killed it any more dead, quicker or more efficient?
yep arrows kill different than rifles, the largest crop damage doe I killed last year weighed over 200 shot inside 15 yards with 7mm WBY, 160 grain Nosler accubond ran over 100 yards with lungs destroyed, minimal blood on ground till the end. Would a 308 or 6.5 have done better?
In the current debate it seems 6.5 has an edge to user in wind drift speed and energy at longer range- but no animal with same hit would know or care about any ballistics debate or virtues.

 

[Newbie2020]

I’m not really sure what the question is?...

I had the same thing happen with an antelope with a 175 gr Federal soft point 300wsm at 80 yds. Quartering shot facing towards me. Broke the near shoulder, split the heart and lungs, exited between the ribs on the opposite side, critter ran 80 yds and died. Dead is dead I guess. Adrenaline, muscle glycogen, calcium dumping, yada yada.

My guess is the differences in killing ability of various rounds are null At these close ranges, assuming accurate shot placement. Cartridge and ballistics and bullet weight won’t be of consequence until you reach ranges where either (a) bullet energy is borderline or (b) likelihood of heart-lung impact is questionable.

“A lotta deer died at 150 yds from a 30-30.”

 

[eastexsteve]

Keep in mind that when you talk about terminal ballistics, your assuming that all that energy will be delivered to the target. This is not the case if the bullet doesn't stop in the target, but keeps going.

A good example of this is most deer I've shot at ranges out to 200 yards with a .308 would either run a bit, or just fall over or fall down in their tracks. Upon examination, the bullet would be a through-and-through. On the other hand, my personal rifle range is located in an area frequented by hogs, and it's not unusual for them to walk right out in the line of fire. A couple of times, I've killed big hogs at distances approaching 800 yards, and the round appeared to literally knock 'em over so hard they rolled over with their feet momentarily in the air. When I looked at the bullet wound, it never made it out the other side, but stopped in the far shoulder. Those bullets spent all their energy in those hogs.

 

[TxWelder35]

Given the same bullet design/construction, impacting the same spot, inside of 200 yards on a deer I don’t think it matters a damn bit if they are hit with a 6BR, 6.5cm, or a 300wm. Bet they all have the same results.

 

[McCrazy]

I come from a similar background as you, Tarheel (5th SFG for the win). I have also been pretty impressed by the terminal ballistics of the M118LR projectile which is just a 175 gr. Sierra March King. Considering it is designed for accuracy and BC; not terminal performance, it does rather well. The M80 ball projectiles are 147 grain from I don't remember where and while they get the job done, they don't do it with quite the authority of the M118LR in my experience.

As for the 6.5 CM vs. .308 terminal ballistics, I don't have a lot of experience with that. However, as someone pointed out earlier the extra velocity of the 6.5 will give it the advantage on cavitation and hydrostatic shock which does most of the soft tissue damage. This advantage will increase with distance due to the 6.5s BC superiority. Add to that the greater chances of actually hitting what you are aiming at that the 6.5 affords you and the better choice seems fairly clear to me.

DOL

 

[acudaowner]

 

[tarheel7734]

I come from a similar background as you, Tarheel (5th SFG for the win). I have also been pretty impressed by the terminal ballistics of the M118LR projectile which is just a 175 gr. Sierra March King. Considering it is designed for accuracy and BC; not terminal performance, it does rather well. The M80 ball projectiles are 147 grain from I don't remember where and while they get the job done, they don't do it with quite the authority of the M118LR in my experience.

As for the 6.5 CM vs. .308 terminal ballistics, I don't have a lot of experience with that. However, as someone pointed out earlier the extra velocity of the 6.5 will give it the advantage on cavitation and hydrostatic shock which does most of the soft tissue damage. This advantage will increase with distance due to the 6.5s BC superiority. Add to that the greater chances of actually hitting what you are aiming at that the 6.5 affords you and the better choice seems fairly clear to me.

DOL

Thanks brother I appreciate it. I had deduced much of that and just needed confirmation. I really want to get a bergara hmr and was trying to settle on a caliber. I settle then second guess my choice. Been debating lately between the 6.5 creed, 6.5 prc, and 300 prc.

 

[THEIS]

I settle then second guess my choice. Been debating lately between the 6.5 creed, 6.5 prc, and 300 prc.

Hi,

Now you are talking about completely different animals (no pun intended) when adding in the 300PRC into the mix.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[McCrazy]

The PRCs are definitely in a whole other league performance-wise but also require different bolt faces than the standard bolt face the 6.5 CM and .308 and therefore don't work in as many applications.

However, they are newcomers and we will see if they last or fizzle out like the WSMs, SAUMs, WSSMs, etc. The Creedmoor on the other hand is well-established and probably here to stay.

 

[tarheel7734]

The PRCs are definitely in a whole other league performance-wise but also require different bolt faces than the standard bolt face the 6.5 CM and .308 and therefore don't work in as many applications.

However, they are newcomers and we will see if they last or fizzle out like the WSMs, SAUMs, WSSMs, etc. The Creedmoor on the other hand is well-established and probably here to stay.

What I will most likely do is get the Creedmoor. Work 1 mile and closer mostly 1k and under and work my groups. If I find I need to go larger I can do so at a later time.