Terrible ES & SD w/ H4350. What is going on?

[NeMuscle]

I'm new to precision shooting and I'm designing a load for my Tikka CTR 6.5 cr.
I started my load development yesterday by doing a course bullet seating depth test to test group size. 6 shots each at 0.008", 0.045", 0.065", 0.085", and 0.125" off the lands. (No huge difference, prolly go with 0.065" and call it a day.)

My next step was going to be a ladder test with the powder to try to find a good node, but after reviewing the data from 30 rounds of the same charge I don't like what I see.

about 450 rounds down the barrel already
CCI LRP
Lapua
140 ELD's
H4350 @ 41.8gr
Chargemaster Lite
Magnetospeed

[30 rounds]
AV fps - 2685
SD - 16.5
ES - 63
(The Chargemaster was calibrated at the start and confirmed with a beam scale. It was a brand new, never opened jug of powder when I opened it.)

I know some of the difference may be because of the variations in seating depth, but even in the best group, 0.085", thoughs 6 bullets were:
AV fps - 2685
SD - 12
ES - 35

I should be getting better consistency shouldn't I?
What should I do?

 

[SupressYourself]

This could be a lot of things. I trust my Magnetospeed, so I'd probably rule that out (for now).
The scale could be drifting a bit due to static or other problems. Hard to tell unless you have another trustworthy scale to double-check.
But most likely, you have variance in neck tension on the brass, which is difficult to measure unless you have a hydraulic seating press.
Is it new brass? What are you using to size the cases?

 

[Triple D]

I should be getting better consistency shouldn't I?
What should I do?

Be more consistent. You can’t vary the pressure with different seating depths and expect tight Std. Dev.

Stick with the seating depth that you like and adjust the charge. You’ll find a tighter std. dev. Among a specific charge.

 

[lte82]

I'm new to precision shooting and I'm designing a load for my Tikka CTR 6.5 cr.
I started my load development yesterday by doing a course bullet seating depth test to test group size. 6 shots each at 0.008", 0.045", 0.065", 0.085", and 0.125" off the lands. (No huge difference, prolly go with 0.065" and call it a day.)

My next step was going to be a ladder test with the powder to try to find a good node, but after reviewing the data from 30 rounds of the same charge I don't like what I see.

about 450 rounds down the barrel already
CCI LRP
Lapua
140 ELD's
H4350 @ 41.8gr
Chargemaster Lite
Magnetospeed

[30 rounds]
AV fps - 2685
SD - 16.5
ES - 63
(The Chargemaster was calibrated at the start and confirmed with a beam scale. It was a brand new, never opened jug of powder when I opened it.)

I know some of the difference may be because of the variations in seating depth, but even in the best group, 0.085", thoughs 6 bullets were:
AV fps - 2685
SD - 12
ES - 35

I should be getting better consistency shouldn't I?
What should I do?

In a 6.5 creed size case it, every .1 gr of powder equals about 6-8 fps. So the ES of 63 you are seeing is equivalent to a charge weight that has a 1 gr worth of extreme spread. That's a WHOLE lot.

1. Weigh your cases to make sure they are consistent. It's Lapua, so they should all be within 1gr of the same weight. I've seen where mixed lots of Hornady brass cause the types of velocities you're seeing, but not Lapua.

2. Primers may be igniting inconsistently. I've never actually had this issue, but might be worth trying a different lot.

3. The beginning of a carbon ring *can* cause some weird velocity problems, or even just a dirty barrel.

 

[rustyinbend]

I'd pick a good distance off the lands ... like 0.030 ... and build your ladder test. After you have a good velocity node and good SD and ES, "then" fine-tune your seating depth. That's what's been working for me.

 

[phlegethon]

Most people underestimate their ES and SD by looking at inappropriately small sample sizes. Your results above are probably pretty normal. Yes, seating depth should affect pressure and therefore velocity, so that’s going to increase it a bit.

Muzzle Velocity Stats – Statistics for Shooters Part 2

Consistent muzzle velocity is key for long-range shooting, otherwise, bullets that leave the muzzle...

precisionrifleblog.com

 

[NeMuscle]

This could be a lot of things. I trust my Magnetospeed, so I'd probably rule that out (for now).
The scale could be drifting a bit due to static or other problems. Hard to tell unless you have another trustworthy scale to double-check.
But most likely, you have variance in neck tension on the brass, which is difficult to measure unless you have a hydraulic seating press.
Is it new brass? What are you using to size the cases?

Yes, brand new never fired Lapua brass. I did not size it before hand, just did a visual and loaded them.

 

[918v]

I'm new to precision shooting and I'm designing a load for my Tikka CTR 6.5 cr.
I started my load development yesterday by doing a course bullet seating depth test to test group size. 6 shots each at 0.008", 0.045", 0.065", 0.085", and 0.125" off the lands. (No huge difference, prolly go with 0.065" and call it a day.)

My next step was going to be a ladder test with the powder to try to find a good node, but after reviewing the data from 30 rounds of the same charge I don't like what I see.

about 450 rounds down the barrel already
CCI LRP
Lapua
140 ELD's
H4350 @ 41.8gr
Chargemaster Lite
Magnetospeed

[30 rounds]
AV fps - 2685
SD - 16.5
ES - 63
(The Chargemaster was calibrated at the start and confirmed with a beam scale. It was a brand new, never opened jug of powder when I opened it.)

I know some of the difference may be because of the variations in seating depth, but even in the best group, 0.085", thoughs 6 bullets were:
AV fps - 2685
SD - 12
ES - 35

I should be getting better consistency shouldn't I?
What should I do?

New Lapua brass should be sized to uniform seating pressure. I would have done a velocity test first at book COAL. Then a seating depth test.

 

[lte82]

Yes, brand new never fired Lapua brass. I did not size it before hand, just did a visual and loaded them.

You definitely don't need to size them. I've been loading new lapua and peterson brass the last 12 months with great results. Regularly 4-5 SD's and small groups in dasher, 6x47, 308...

The other thing to look at is changing the charge weight up or down. Due to harmonics and other internal ballistics the ammo could just be hunting for a node. Like if you see 2650, 2655, 2652, 2690, 2660, you should consider moving up into the 2690 range, or dropping down a couple tenths and see if it eliminates the high velocity "flier" while staying in the 2650 range. If you are "on the edge" of a node, you can see some weird velocity fliers like that, either high or low. If the ES/SD is just bad and the velocities show no consistency, you may be right between nodes and you need to make a more drastic adjustment (assuming your brass, powder charges, and bullets are consistent, and barrel is not shot out).

 

[Lawnboi]

Did you do anything to the virgin Lapua? I bet that has everything to do with it.

You don’t need to size it but it has insanely grippy/tight necks if you don’t do anything to them.

 

[TxWelder35]

Pick a single seating depth, run a ladder test 5 shots at each charge weight, find a good stable velocity with good es/sd, then run your seating depth test to tighten up groups

 

[NeMuscle]

You definitely don't need to size them. I've been loading new lapua and peterson brass the last 12 months with great results. Regularly 4-5 SD's and small groups in dasher, 6x47, 308...

The other thing to look at is changing the charge weight up or down. Due to harmonics and other internal ballistics the ammo could just be hunting for a node. Like if you see 2650, 2655, 2652, 2690, 2660, you should consider moving up into the 2690 range, or dropping down a couple tenths and see if it eliminates the high velocity "flier" while staying in the 2650 range. If you are "on the edge" of a node, you can see some weird velocity fliers like that, either high or low. If the ES/SD is just bad and the velocities show no consistency, you may be right between nodes and you need to make a more drastic adjustment (assuming your brass, powder charges, and bullets are consistent, and barrel is not shot out).

That would make sense. I'll just continue with my ladder test and hopefully 41.8 is near a velocity drop off.

Do anyone know if there is a standard seating depth off the lands for a Tikka w/ 140 ELD's?

 

[spife7980]

That would make sense. I'll just continue with my ladder test and hopefully 41.8 is near a velocity drop off.

Do anyone know if there is a standard seating depth off the lands for a Tikka w/ 140 ELD's?

I would start at .020 off if touching. Once you find you ocw powder node you would be +/- .015 either way on the final seating depth I suspect.

 

[Supersubes]

Yes, brand new never fired Lapua brass. I did not size it before hand, just did a visual and loaded them.

Thats your issue. Lesson learned. Treat it exactly as you would have if they were fired cases. Out of the mouths were dinged, the chamfer sucks, and the necks are dry as can be.

 

[Dthomas3523]

You definitely don't need to size them. I've been loading new lapua and peterson brass the last 12 months with great results. Regularly 4-5 SD's and small groups in dasher, 6x47, 308...

The other thing to look at is changing the charge weight up or down. Due to harmonics and other internal ballistics the ammo could just be hunting for a node. Like if you see 2650, 2655, 2652, 2690, 2660, you should consider moving up into the 2690 range, or dropping down a couple tenths and see if it eliminates the high velocity "flier" while staying in the 2650 range. If you are "on the edge" of a node, you can see some weird velocity fliers like that, either high or low. If the ES/SD is just bad and the velocities show no consistency, you may be right between nodes and you need to make a more drastic adjustment (assuming your brass, powder charges, and bullets are consistent, and barrel is not shot out).

Do you run a mandrel through new brass?

 

[NeMuscle]

Do you run a mandrel through new brass?

Nope

 

[SupressYourself]

I think people that say you don't need to touch new brass before loading are in the minority.
Lapua is great brass for sure, but if nothing else, the way it's shipped loose in those boxes can provide the potential for dinged case mouths and other issues. Just run it through your normal brass prep (minus cleaning obviously) and you'll probably get better results.
Some like to use a dry lube on the inside of the necks on super clean brass. For me, the jury is still out on that one...

 

[Dthomas3523]

Nope

Was asking someone else before making a response.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I think people that say you don't need to touch new brass before loading are in the minority.
Lapua is great brass for sure, but if nothing else, the way it's shipped loose in those boxes can provide the potential for dinged case mouths and other issues. Just run it through your normal brass prep (minus cleaning obviously) and you'll probably get better results.
Some like to use a dry lube on the inside of the necks on super clean brass. For me, the jury is still out on that one...

If you don’t use some sort of lube on clean necks, you’ll get varying seating pressure that may not be due to neck diameter.

Pin gauges will check neck diameter. Seating force gauges show you the big picture, but won’t pin point exactly what is going on. That part is up to you to decipher based on your loading process and QC checks.

 

[Winny94]

I'm new to precision shooting and I'm designing a load for my Tikka CTR 6.5 cr.
I started my load development yesterday by doing a course bullet seating depth test to test group size. 6 shots each at 0.008", 0.045", 0.065", 0.085", and 0.125" off the lands. (No huge difference, prolly go with 0.065" and call it a day.)

My next step was going to be a ladder test with the powder to try to find a good node, but after reviewing the data from 30 rounds of the same charge I don't like what I see.

about 450 rounds down the barrel already
CCI LRP
Lapua
140 ELD's
H4350 @ 41.8gr
Chargemaster Lite
Magnetospeed

[30 rounds]
AV fps - 2685
SD - 16.5
ES - 63
(The Chargemaster was calibrated at the start and confirmed with a beam scale. It was a brand new, never opened jug of powder when I opened it.)

I know some of the difference may be because of the variations in seating depth, but even in the best group, 0.085", thoughs 6 bullets were:
AV fps - 2685
SD - 12
ES - 35

I should be getting better consistency shouldn't I?
What should I do?

That 30 lot sample size is about useless for finding any sort of SD/ES info. SD/ES is primarily a function of consistency - consistent brass prep, consistent powder charge, consistent neck tension, consistent seating depth.

6.5CM w/ 4350 may be the most published recipe on record, so you should have a good idea of where you can expect nodes. If you cant get good results, start at brass prep. Consistency is key

 

[Winny94]

Yes, brand new never fired Lapua brass. I did not size it before hand, just did a visual and loaded them.

Id put a lot of money thats your issue. New cases never have the same neck tension out of the box, regardless of visual inspection. Always run a mandrel at least.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

------------> rabbit hole (case prep)

 

[NeMuscle]

OK. Use a mandrel, unfortunately they are out of stock everywhere.
Also I would like to get a scale check weight set to verify my scales.... which are also out of stock. Ugh.

Looks like I'm back to web surfing for in stock items.

Thank you everybody for your help.

 

[lte82]

Do you run a mandrel through new brass?

Yes and no. Lately no, but only because the neck tension with the Peterson dasher, 47, and 308 brass has been good right out of the box, doesn’t scrape bullet jackets, and runout is minimal. If neck tension is too tight or the case mouths are sharp I’ll run them through a mandrel and sometimes even chamfer. Or if I have cheap brass (IE, Wolf 223) I’ll actually take them through a FL die to normalize neck tension. Funny thing though, I’ve run tests right off the work bench and a .002 variation in neck tension doesn’t really create much of a POI shift or velocity shift to the point where it matters. 5-7 extra ES maybe, 63 no. Neck tension doesn’t have nearly as much effect on internal ballistics as described (or maybe regurgitated) online. Probably the same effect as not cleaning your primer pockets or sorting your bullets.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Yes and no. Lately no, but only because the neck tension with the Peterson dasher, 47, and 308 brass has been good right out of the box, doesn’t scrape bullet jackets, and runout is minimal. If neck tension is too tight or the case mouths are sharp I’ll run them through a mandrel and sometimes even chamfer. Or if I have cheap brass (IE, Wolf 223) I’ll actually take them through a FL die to normalize neck tension. Funny thing though, I’ve run tests right off the work bench and a .002 variation in neck tension doesn’t really create much of a POI shift or velocity shift to the point where it matters. 5-7 extra ES maybe, 63 no. Neck tension doesn’t have nearly as much effect on internal ballistics as described (or maybe regurgitated) online. Probably the same effect as not cleaning your primer pockets or sorting your bullets.

Mandrels took my ES from 30-40 to 20-30 or so.

That could just be more that I introduced consistency to my process and not necessarily the actual neck ID.

But definitely agree, it shouldn’t be the reason for 60es unless something is pretty far out of whack.

 

[NeMuscle]

I think I'll do a test.
Take 6 new cases and run them through my FL die (which has an expander ball/deprimming pin in it) and 6 cases that are untouched.
Load them exactly how I did before and shoot them while alternating back and forth and recording the numbers and see if it makes a difference.
Unfortunately I won't be able to do this until Monday.

If it doesn't seem to be much of a difference then I think I'll continue and do a ladder test every 0.2 grain and see if 41.8gn is right on the edge of a large velocity change.

 

[Supersubes]

Yes and no. Lately no, but only because the neck tension with the Peterson dasher, 47, and 308 brass has been good right out of the box, doesn’t scrape bullet jackets, and runout is minimal. If neck tension is too tight or the case mouths are sharp I’ll run them through a mandrel and sometimes even chamfer. Or if I have cheap brass (IE, Wolf 223) I’ll actually take them through a FL die to normalize neck tension. Funny thing though, I’ve run tests right off the work bench and a .002 variation in neck tension doesn’t really create much of a POI shift or velocity shift to the point where it matters. 5-7 extra ES maybe, 63 no. Neck tension doesn’t have nearly as much effect on internal ballistics as described (or maybe regurgitated) online. Probably the same effect as not cleaning your primer pockets or sorting your bullets.

You never know what you're going to get though. Necks can be all over the map. You might recognize seating tension issues right off the bat. The OP may not, and may not know what to look for in the necks to begin with. Heres a brand new box of peterson. Its part of a large purchase of brass, and they all look like this. I would never reload cases in this condition, no reason to accept that in virgin condition. In my experience, this is the lions share of why some people have shit results with virgin.

Random virgin lapua 6.5 case.

 

[PFG]

Why not just load all the virgins, fire into a dirt mound, then start the reload and brass prep process from there?

At least you’ll get 100 1x fired that hsvd round necks, assuming you loaded round bullets.

 

[Supersubes]

Why not just load all the virgins, fire into a dirt mound, then start the reload and brass prep process from there?

At least you’ll get 100 1x fired that hsvd round necks, assuming you loaded round bullets.

Because that’s a huge waste of time and components, and you’re missing out on learning what the barrel likes. You could have 95% of your load work up done in the first 50 rounds, with nothing remaining but a slight charge weight tweak to account for the different pressure characteristic of the fired cases.

 

[PFG]

I can confirm, with minus pin gages, all my virgin 6.5 lapua has neck tension tighter that 4 thou.

 

[260284]

That would make sense. I'll just continue with my ladder test and hopefully 41.8 is near a velocity drop off.

Do anyone know if there is a standard seating depth off the lands for a Tikka w/ 140 ELD's?

Mine shot good at .020" off and better at .055" off the lands. It will vary from rifle to rifle though.

 

[Supersubes]

I can confirm, with minus pin gages, all my virgin 6.5 lapua has neck tension tighter that 4 thou.

As shown in the pictures above, brass is not round, has burrs, and little to no chamfer. Sticking a pin gauge in them isnt telling you what you think it is.

 

[iceng]

Neck chamfer, and mandrel. 2 important steps on virgin brass.

Also you need to do a ladder or OCW first and find a velocity node. Then do seating depth and chase some accuracy.

 

[Winny94]

OK. Use a mandrel, unfortunately they are out of stock everywhere.
Also I would like to get a scale check weight set to verify my scales.... which are also out of stock. Ugh.

Looks like I'm back to web surfing for in stock items.

Thank you everybody for your help.

Several options in stock here: https://www.brownells.com/reloading..._1=264+Caliber&avs|Special-Filters_1=In+Stock

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

pin or plug guages are an inexpensive way to measure what your necks are at. Get a bunch +/- of varying sizes above and below your desired ID.

You can find individuals on Amazon.

 

[SporterII]

Check that charge master against your mechanical scale each drop. Every one next go round. Mandrel and touch the case mouth with a chamfer tool.
Try tha load again and see what you get
Or
Just run the powder and see what happened without a shot fired.

 

[260284]

I have had great ES and Sd with new Lapua and Peterson brass just chamfering the case mouth and loading it. If you didn't chamfer first, that would be the first and cheapest step.

 

[PFG]

Neck chamfer, and mandrel. 2 important steps on virgin brass.

Also you need to do a ladder or OCW first and find a velocity node. Then do seating depth and chase some accuracy.

What lube do you use inside necks before mandrel? Or on the mandrel?

 

[Winny94]

What lube do you use inside necks before mandrel? Or on the mandrel?

This wasnt directed at me, but a quick dip in Redding graphite has done well for me.

 

[iceng]

Imperial dry neck lube. Has small ceramic balls in it. My method is (from a dirty fired case)
Deprime, wet tumble, dry, neck size / FL size / whatever is needed (with light lube), paper towel wipe dry the neck, dip in dry lube, mandrel inside necks, short wet tumble to clean, prime, power, seat projectile.

If require I throw anneal and trim in also. I measure every 10th case when sizing / loading. In a box of 100, the start of each row I check. If there's a problem, I only have a max of 10 cases which need a follow-up adjust.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Yes, brand new never fired Lapua brass. I did not size it before hand, just did a visual and loaded them.

I recently broke out a new box of ADG for my 300 PRC, and I measured the first firing over 50 shots. I got an SD of about 12. My normal SDs are about 6, and with the second firing, they fell right back in line. Here are some things to think about:

- Don't do load development using virgin brass.
- Don't do load development while your barrel is speeding up.
- Do prep virgin brass: primer hole debur, chamfer, mandrel, and if you're really anal, uniform primer pockets. I don't trim until after first firing.
- The spreads you used for seating depth are WAY too big for many bullets, and even for most "jump tolerant" bullets.
- Get the basics down before you try lowering ES/SD by adding in additional reloading steps.

 

[AKMarty]

That would make sense. I'll just continue with my ladder test and hopefully 41.8 is near a velocity drop off.

Do anyone know if there is a standard seating depth off the lands for a Tikka w/ 140 ELD's?

Factory 147 ELDM was running .030” off the lands when my Tikka was new. .375-.5 moa groups (SD 10.5 @ 10deg F). 2100 rounds later I’m in excess of .107” jump and still shooting .375” groups.

If you like how the factory ammo shoots, copy the CBTO.

 

[beetroot]

I know some of the difference may be because of the variations in seating depth, but even in the best group, 0.085", thoughs 6 bullets were:
AV fps - 2685
SD - 12
ES - 35

My reloading practices are pretty archaic compared to many here but if that load is shooting relatively well I'd just do a charge weight test with the seating depth, if the accuracy is good I'd be more than happy with that.
Or just do a charge weight test seated .020" off the lands.

If the rifles inherent accuracy starts to hold you back in the future then go down the rabbit hole of low ES/SDs and insane brass prep but if you are hitting steel reliably at the distances you shoot then don't stress about it.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I recently broke out a new box of ADG for my 300 PRC, and I measured the first firing over 50 shots. I got an SD of about 12. My normal SDs are about 6, and with the second firing, they fell right back in line. Here are some things to think about:

- Don't do load development using virgin brass.
- Don't do load development while your barrel is speeding up.
- Do prep virgin brass: primer hole debur, chamfer, mandrel, and if you're really anal, uniform primer pockets. I don't trim until after first firing.
- The spreads you used for seating depth are WAY too big for many bullets, and even for most "jump tolerant" bullets.
- Get the basics down before you try lowering ES/SD by adding in additional reloading steps.

What exactly do you do to new brass?

 

[Rocketmandb]

What exactly do you do to new brass?

To start, I use a mandrel to open up the neck. Some manufacturers make brass with exceptionally tight necks (ADG is the most egregious) or with Hornady they have a sort of lip that's good to even out. I will deburr/uniform the flash holes and for non-Lapua, chamfer the mouths in and out. I'm also one of the anal types that will uniform the primer pockets, though I don't do that again for quite a few firings.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

To start, I use a mandrel to open up the neck. Some manufacturers make brass with exceptionally tight necks (ADG is the most egregious) or with Hornady they have a sort of lip that's good to even out. I will deburr/uniform the flash holes and for non-Lapua, chamfer the mouths in and out. I'm also one of the anal types that will uniform the primer pockets, though I don't do that again for quite a few firings.

no full lenth size or bushing?

 

[Rocketmandb]

no full lenth size or bushing?

No - highly unlikely that new brass won't fit a chamber (even my tight ass 300! ), and they make them tight to begin with, so a bushing doesn't buy you anything (and I'm using a mandrel in front of that regardless).

 

[iceng]

There are standards, such as SAAMI and if a company chooses to manufacture or sell brass or cartridge with a specific head stamp, it must be to the standard.

There are some (Starline comes to mind) who sell unfinished brass for wildcatting as an example.

I usually neck turn, and I flash hole deburr. Flash hole deburr I've noticed does an excellent job at lowering ES/SD on a given KNOWN load, a seasoned reloader would notice it, however a new reloader, or a load (in OPs case) which is new, or having problems, I would not rely on that or even suggest it as a cure.

 

[Winny94]

View attachment 7579929

Imperial dry neck lube. Has small ceramic balls in it. My method is (from a dirty fired case)
Deprime, wet tumble, dry, neck size / FL size / whatever is needed (with light lube), paper towel wipe dry the neck, dip in dry lube, mandrel inside necks, short wet tumble to clean, prime, power, seat projectile.

If require I throw anneal and trim in also. I measure every 10th case when sizing / loading. In a box of 100, the start of each row I check. If there's a problem, I only have a max of 10 cases which need a follow-up adjust.

Why wouldn't you anneal after each firing

 

[iceng]

Why wouldn't you anneal after each firing

Because I don't always need it ? Most of my loads I do, however I have some I do not. A good example of this is 223 or my hunting gun. 223 I keep loading until it dies, then get more free brass, and my hunting doesn't see enough use to warrant it.

I also have a cartridge I called 6 Troll which I don't anneal. 223 necked up to 6mm and Ackley improved, which is a 6x45 AI, or very similar to 6 TCU. 87gr VMAX @ 2940fps. Literally load it by seating a proj in it, I don't even neck expand on range brass or anything. Just get 223 brass, and smash a 87gr into it. Reload it 3 or 4 times (or until it splits) and get more brass when needed. It's a cheap PRS training round, and it's accurate enough for me with the lack of care I out into it.

I use a redding type S 223ai die, with a bigger bushing, and a drilled out 223rem seater.