The Everyday Sniper Episode 84 Gunwerks AAR

[Lowlight]

Gunwerks Episode

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[maverickasu]

Hey Lowlight, I know it is a touchy subject and I am NOT asking you to name names. But the "grey-area" and cheating things your talking about that 10% of competitors are doing. what ARE those things? What should we be looking for? What should we be watching for or really keep an eye open for. You mentioned if you see it, SAY something. What kind of stuff are ppl seeing and not saying stuff about?

 

[Lowlight]

I am not getting into it anymore

I brought it up because I was confronted about my past comments, but moving forward, I am not stirring that particular pot. They know, it's small things so let them sort it out. Jon admitted he has seen it too, so clearly it is happening, even now.

I am not a PRS Members, I am not supporting the PRS with my matches, I have no dog in the fight and aside from relaying this conversation to you, I am out of it. Sorry no red meat from me.

They can sort themselves out or choose to do nothing and pretend none of this matters. And maybe it doesn't matter, they are content to keep the status quo, so why should I question their motives. If you are not sure and don't know what to look for, consider yourself lucky, move on and enjoy your time.

 

[Hippy_Steve]

Hey Frank, thanks for the shout out for new shooters wanting to dip their toes into precision shooting. I'm having a hard time finding a mentor or group of guys to shoot with and learn from, and I think the best option is to dive into a local match and see where that current takes me.

 

[maverickasu]

I am not getting into it anymore

I brought it up because I was confronted about my past comments, but moving forward, I am not stirring that particular pot. They know, it's small things so let them sort it out. Jon admitted he has seen it too, so clearly it is happening, even now.

I am not a PRS Members, I am not supporting the PRS with my matches, I have no dog in the fight and aside from relaying this conversation to you, I am out of it. Sorry no red meat from me.

They can sort themselves out or choose to do nothing and pretend none of this matters. And maybe it doesn't matter, they are content to keep the status quo, so why should I question their motives. If you are not sure and don't know what to look for, consider yourself lucky, move on and enjoy your time.

understood... Guess this falls bottom line that don't be intimidated, if you see something hinky, ask, say something, generally follow up and hold each other accountable.

 

[360precision]

After listening to this it is opening my eyes more to the fact that these national and even local prs nrl matches are pushing shooters away from good fundamentals for many different reasons and aspects just to get an impact anyway possible. As a hunter that wants to get into these types of competitions to get better as a shooter to be a better hunter I wished there would be more field/practical matches. I hope they are listening and move in that direction. Even if it was just a couple more a year that are like the gunwerks match.
Also Lowlight you mentioned seeing more Leupolds at the match and I know mile hile sold a bunch. Any feedback on tracking ,glass clarity and just the general opions on performance of the mark 5?

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

Hey Lowlight, I know it is a touchy subject and I am NOT asking you to name names. But the "grey-area" and cheating things your talking about that 10% of competitors are doing. what ARE those things? What should we be looking for? What should we be watching for or really keep an eye open for. You mentioned if you see it, SAY something. What kind of stuff are ppl seeing and not saying stuff about?

I CAN say things because I don't give a shit, and I'm not worried about upsetting anyone. I don't know what Frank thinks the grey area is. I know what I think of PRS matches though.

First off, they are fun and useful for building skill...but people that tout themselves as "PRS Shooters" can be absolutely insufferable. The whole game (IT'S NOT A SPORT) attracts a lot of very credible people, but also a lot of elitist assholes that think PRS is the biggest, baddest, most practical and hardest shooting sport around. Because it's a points race, and we can look on the internet and see who all the top shooters are. And we can go to Precision Rifle Blog and see "What the Pros Use" and obviously conclude that what they use is the best. (Nevermind the fact that companies basically pay to be well represented) And guys derive a huge sense of accomplishment out of just participating in it. Usually most people are well behaved at a match but go to any online forum and you'll see what they think of themselves in private. They think that all of the gamesmanship like 8oz triggers, attachments galore, and 26lb rifles are pushing marksmanship forward. They want to treat PRS like it's an Olympic sport but don't want to run it like one.

Second, the "grey area" is mostly due to the rules being pretty open ended. Some people look at the "grey area" as being part of the game, and others look at it as undermining the competitive nature of the game. It's both. Rifle matches are social events. Nobody wants to go to a match and be told that you can't shoot with your friends. Guess what? Having friends is an advantage.

For example, if I squad up with friends who are great shooters in their own right, and great at playing the game, and we work together, we can come up with pretty close to the optimum solution on every stage. Perfect real world example: one of the matches I shot had a stage where you had to shoot off a table-top and a stool. The shooter could put the stool on the ground, keep it on the table, and have it in any orientation they wanted. Every squad before mine had decided on some variation of the stool being on the ground and turned on it's side. I decided to flip the stool upside down on top of the table and put a bag on it; it was basically the same as shooting off of the table. I asked the RO beforehand if this plan was alright, and he didn't see a problem with it because he was like "The stage only says you have to shoot 5 off the table and 5 off the stool, and you get to pick the orientation of the stool." Technically I could have put the bipod on the stool and it would have been within the rules. We had a good laugh about it but I easily cleaned the stage and everyone after me did a lot better than the people before. Nobody had thought of it. I cleared it with the RO beforehand, but I am sure there are people who would have shot the stage first and asked questions later, and then complained to the match director that it was within the rules. Another example would be a "sitting stage" that I shot. I cleaned it by using a sling and actually being good at it because I shot a metric fuck ton of NRA Highpower so that's my bread and butter. Another Highpower shooter cleaned it as well. And then a whole squad of shooters cleaned it because a guy had an extra long bipod, and they stuck their feet out in front of them and put the bipod on their feet, and put a bag under the back.

Another advantage of being on a team/super best friends squad is that you can game the shooting order at matches. Maybe I am doing well, but my buddy is doing better, so I can shoot first and give him my wind call, and he can shoot right after me at a marked advantage over someone going at it alone. The same goes for spotting impacts: if I can put a guy behind me with a spotting scope and he tells me all of my shots were slightly low, I can edit my data to perform better on the next stage.

And then if you are on a team, you can also bully the RO's into basically giving you extra points. I already talked about how you can break the stage design. You can also get extra hits by having your super-best-friend spot for you as well. Put your buddy next to the RO, and on shots that the RO doesn't have to call, you just have your buddy verify that it's a hit, and usually the RO will give you the benefit of the doubt. Or just have your buddy be the RO and shots that he normally has no call for might actually be impacts that barely clipped the edge.

Is it fair? It's not fair to the new guy who expected this to be an individual show of skill. However it is fair in the sense that he can work with his squad in the same sense other guys work together. Part of the fun of going to matches for a lot of shooters is basically hanging out with their friends, as well as sharing knowledge. If you make the rules more strict by splitting up squads, and limiting communication, you also make the matches less fun. And it makes it harder for new shooters to get up to speed if we cut off communication about how-to-shoot a stage due to fairness. Making it an Olympic type environment would also make it less fun.

And it's not that this is necessarily wide-spread. Like I don't think that Team X is having guys go up and spot impacts in bad faith. But a whole squad of guys wearing the same T-shirt, and trying to win a $4000-$5000 prize, and all of a sudden it can start to look very bad. It just takes a few cynical people exploiting loopholes to ruin it. And RO's and Match Directors are going to be reluctant to call it out because Team X sponsors the match and donates to the prize table as well. And the matches are mostly funded by repeat customers. Go to more than 1 match and you'll see a bunch of the same people. And at the end of the day it doesn't matter if Shooter X places top 50 because of a few less than ethical points here and there. Because his direct competition Shooter Y is doing the exact same thing. And Shooters X and Y are the guys paying these $250 match fees over and over.

It's probably not the people that finish at the top that are the cynics either; it's going to be shooters that are just below the top that really want to be there that will be doing the shady shit. Like the guy with the erasable pen was someone I never heard of before in my life. The guy that is shooting 185 Juggernauts in tactical class this year is probably someone you never heard of.

 

[MarinePMI]

@Lowlight

I really enjoyed this podcast; lots of good discussion points. Plus, it was fun listening about the guys from our local range that ended up on Frank's squad. We had a local "train-up" day at our local club yesterday, and it was interesting to see the excitement that those shooters had about the match (they even recreated some of the stages from Cody, to use as training aids for some of the newer guys). nolegs24, hic28 and Beau were really pushing them to think on the clock and get their head into the stage.

As to the mentor thing for new shooters, I'm thinking a "Tyro" class might be a way to get new shooters to venture into the deep end of the PRS style match pool. As a "Tyro" (for those that don't know, this a very old term for a novice competitor) they could wear a special colored arm band or something as an identifier, and allow them some additional leeway to ensure the shooting experience is positive and geared for their experience level. Maybe allow RO's to call dope corrections, or add 30 secs to the time of the stage(?). I like the Mentor/Tyro approach as well, but wonder if visually tagging someone as a Tyro would allow everyone in that squad to help mentor the new shooter, defraying the impact to a single shooter who, has the experience, but still wants to perform/focus on the match too.

Maybe someone is in the "Tyro" class for their first 2-3 matches, and then revert to normal "open" or "tactical" class shooter after that(?). Or base it on their scores (like skeet, you start in the "B" class, and after that first match, your score determines whether you fall in the A, B, or C class of competitive shooters).

I also like the idea of penalty points on the point chasers; it provides a check against the abuses we've all seen at PRS matches (I still recall the 2015 SHC, and some of the shenanigans that went on there...No fault of Frank mind you, it was a shit storm organizationally with all the rain/flooding that had occurred the week prior to the match, and made it a ripe environment for abuse).

I was also glad to hear that Phil had included mandatory mag changes in the stages, it was something we noticed at our club as well (people fumbling with mags). We also have started making stages 12 rd count stages, mapped to an odd number of addresses, forcing them to consciously decide/plan their mag changes (hopefully as they were breaking position and moving to another address). A very practical training item to force onto shooters IMHO.

At any rate, I suppose I'm rambling a bit. Just wanted to say it was a great podcast, and brought up a lot of points to think about/chew on....

 

[MarinePMI]

Okay, maybe I'm not done rambling... It's Sunday morning, and my coffee is kicking in.

The discussion on the PRS "grey area" shenanigans does bring to mind a subject that may well worth be exploring in a podcast.

I remember years ago, when working with an ammunition manufacturer, I was talking with their Chief Engineer. He was lamenting some decisions that upper management had recently made to the production line, and I asked him why he thought they made the decisions they had. His answer still echos in my mind to day. He said "He has no 'passion' for the trade!", only for numbers.

With PRS/LR shooting, we have seen a wide array of people join the ranks in a short amount of time. That being said, when we talk of people skirting the rules, I often ask myself the question "Why is this person shooting?" They almost always have a passion, but I ask myself, what passion is it they have? Is it a passion to win? (point chasers) Is it a passion to bolster their ego? (tacticool gear chasing crowd) Or is it a passion of being a "shooter"; the love of being able to be proficient at launching a piece of metal into the wind, and seeing it "surf" back into the target at distance. Of earning a mutual respect from other people of similar a passion without ego or agenda, but for the love of the sport.

I think that could be a very interesting discussion within a podcast, that could illuminate the market/sport for shooters and vendors alike. Maybe more discussion on the "why" of this sport/discipline, and less about the "how" or "what" would be a good thing.

People with "passion" tend to spend money, and a lot of it. Identifying those "passions" would be something (I think) enlightening and worth discussing....

JMTCW...

 

[LRdasher]

Hey Lowlight, I know it is a touchy subject and I am NOT asking you to name names. But the "grey-area" and cheating things your talking about that 10% of competitors are doing. what ARE those things? What should we be looking for? What should we be watching for or really keep an eye open for. You mentioned if you see it, SAY something. What kind of stuff are ppl seeing and not saying stuff about?

This is the stuff that really turns me off and why I no longer am a PRS paying member. Yes these were within the rules but really...........

It has become who can game the system better.

and this "Shooting with the assistance of the tripod made this pretty dang easy since the targets were fairly large and forgiving. I cleaned this stage as well, gaining 9/9 points."

 

[Shippj]

The guiding principle behind a lot of action shooting matches that I experienced was “it’s not enough to be a great shot, you have to be able to think and problem solve too”. Even in these other shooting disciplines you have “Fudds” that complain that someone is against the “spirit” or that they have a better interpretation of what the match director wanted.

If in the above stages the match director did not want someone using a tripod, then he should spell it out in the stage description. If you want someone to use the rope for support then either design the stage so you have to use it, or spell it out in the stage description. There is nothing wrong with limiting equipment, it’s even better when you do it by stage design instead of decree. If you want to shoot the same as everyone else and not be allowed to think freely and creatively then there is NRA (among others).

This everyone must be equal is really disturbing. Practice harder and be creative, it’s how this are innovated.

There is grey area, sharing wind calls in teams. Spotting and giving corrections for team mates, downright cheating (though I think this is very rare). These infractions should be spelled out and punished.

 

[Lowlight]

The Match Director saw the image above on FB and said it was not how the stage was designed

they do spell it out, the problem is the RO does not correct a shooter or the Shooter argues a missing word in the description, shooter is top 10 guy, RO relents and you have this bs.

The Shooter is not there to compete against the match director, they are there to compete against each other. We know what the spirit of the stages is, as in, the one above you were not supposed to "touch the ground" with the bipod or rifle but Jake decided the stand for the prop was not the ground so he gamed it. But on seeing that the MD said it would have been a DQ - what happens is, the RO does not call the MD and to keep things moving agrees with the shooter and that opens the gates.

I read the stage description it was pretty clear, shoot off the ropes, nothing touches the ground. We should not have to say, stand too.

This idea it's all about Innovation is BS, yes you can have some but it has been taken to the next level where the MD now have to consider every possible situation and you just can't do that.

 

[Shippj]

One of the biggest gripes I have about PRS matches is the RO's cant shoot the match. I came over from 3gun, the RO's are shooters, people who are passionate about the game. The RO's I see at PRS (I use the term as a catch all for like rifle matches) are usually inexperienced and sometime worse, inept. I get it, they are volunteers, God Bless them for doing it. (I run a local monthly 3 gun match and I understand getting volunteers to help out). Why doesnt PRS allow the RO's to shoot the match? If you offer shooters a discounted or free match if they come work it, now you have shooters scoring. You also have someone with a vested interest in making sure the match is fair and equitable.

In the above scenario there are lots of ways to ensure whoever that is that they couldn't use their bipods. Instead of saying "no equipment touching the ground" . How about saying the "front of the rifle must be supported only by the rope"? Using active voice and spelling out what you want instead of being coy and leaving some interpretation. I shoot a local rifle match in my area, I know that no stages will allow tripods. He says it up front, Im ok with that (and I still go to his match, hell I love it). But the difference is he has the ability enunciate exactly what he would like the shooter to do, also he has the creativity and experience to limit your gear decisions based on stage design.

When I first started running a local USPSA match, then moved to 3gun, it blew my mind that shooters wouldnt follow how I thought the stage should be shot. When I wanted them to go left they went right, when I wanted them to shoot at 300 yd targets they ran closer. I felt like I was being gamed, that I was the victim. Thats a bullshit excuse, shooters were finding holes in my game and teaching me to be a better stage designer. I am by no means great at it now, but Im alot better than I was when I began. I learned to make them do what I wanted by designing the stage properly and by spelling it out in the stage description (and leaving no room for interpretation).

I still am not as good as some more experienced stage designers that I know, but Im getting better.


Stage design is hard, RO'ing sucks. Its not for everyone. You have to deal with type A, want to win, hard dicks (and dickettes). But its also what draws me to the sports, the freedom to think and shoot it my way. To use my strengths and try mitigate my vast weaknesses.

 

[Lowlight]

They pull a single word or missing word out of the books, I have the gunwerks book and it's well written but you can still find loopholes. They even have a BOLD gear restriction part at the bottom. Doesn't mean you can't find another way.

Not every stage is meant to be gamed and the ones that are to the degree of grey we are talking about are usually contrived to begin with. This idea you are out to beat the MD is a bit of BS wrapped in a blanket called Innovation. Sometimes a shooting from a sling stage is just that, and not a monopod from the MPA chassis to your foot because the monopod is attached to the chassis it is part of the rifle and not an additional item that you designed to defeat my stage cause you heard ahead of time I do sling shooting stages. But then you get the complaints of the great new product and tool for the LR Shooter, the Chassis Monopod from Top Dog Innovations who will give every PRS shooter a 25% discount because his uncle owns the machine shop.

I have been doing this longer than most, I have seen it all and get it. I should * have to worry about a Typo or missing word for you under the spirit of the stage and the match I am hosting. Get my drift right ?

 

[Shippj]

Sure man, you have been doing this along time. Thank you for your service and so forth. I have not been doing it very long. I dropped my retirement paperwork a few years ago, in my last year got sent to the 3 shop for my last 6 months and starting shooting competitions cause I was bored and it was fun. So I don’t have near the experience in these matches that you do.

But if you don’t spell it out then how are you going to communicate your point? No one can read your mind. We are supposed to know what the stage designer was thinking? Sure you may know, you got your own forum and been doing this a long time. I’m new. I haven’t been around and don’t know what is in his (the stage designers) mind (and that we do it that way because that’s the way it’s always done).


I go back to 3gun as an example because they have solved a lot of these problems. During the RO match stages get troubleshot and the range master makes calls. Some stages get reworked or descriptions get rewritten. It sucks because you might have to shoot them over again if your in the RO match. Life moves on and hopefully the bugs are worked out before the main match. But now the MD is aware of possible holes and probably fixed them, and the ROs are aware of the MDs intent.

 

[Srikaleak]

@Lowlight Could you list out where you disagreed and where you agreed with Jon Pynch. I just want to get the rundown of the topics. You don't have to give your opinion but I wanna know where the disagreements were.

 

[Lowlight]

No, it's done with,

Please these stages are simple, spelling it out more is a cop-out of epic proportions, there is nothing to a stage brief, these guys are playing games

I purposely left a word out above and put an asterisk in its place you still understood what I meant. Stage briefs are pretty damn simple and everyone understands it. The issue is, if you look at it from the angle you are shooting against the Match Director you can find fault with anything. This is a lame ass excuse that the stage briefs are not clear, plain and simple.

Show me an example of briefs that you didn't understand? How is it new and inexperienced shooters can figure it out but the PROS have to manipulate it

After all, this comes from the crowd who thinks a Skill stage is, Kneeling, Standing, Standing Kneeling at 400 yards, yet we see every conceivable variation on how to do it. Doing the same thing twice is a skill, right.

 

[Srikaleak]

No, it's done with,

Please these stages are simple, spelling it out more is a cop-out of epic proportions, there is nothing to a stage brief, these guys are playing games

I purposely left a word out above and put an asterisk in its place you still understood what I meant. Stage briefs are pretty damn simple and everyone understands it. The issue is, if you look at it from the angle you are shooting against the Match Director you can find fault with anything. This is a lame ass excuse that the stage briefs are not clear, plain and simple.

Show me an example of briefs that you didn't understand? How is it new and inexperienced shooters can figure it out but the PROS have to manipulate it

After all, this comes from the crowd who thinks a Skill stage is, Kneeling, Standing, Standing Kneeling at 400 yards, yet we see every conceivable variation on how to do it. Doing the same thing twice is a skill, right.

Yea my bad, just listened to podcast 86 and it sounds like it's wearing you out. Done is done. Thanks for the hard work.
I'm curious if you'd be willing to make a points table for sniperhide. Posters with the most likes? J/k.
One prize that I really would love to win is a year's membership to access the training sessions on the site. Can't resell that (or can I?) ?

 

[Lowlight]

The disagreement was mainly around the prizes and prize table, and what it actually does for the sponsor. He felt it was beneficial to the sponsor because, "a person who bought it from him, wanted it" and it will go to a worthy shooter because it was sold to them.

That is the highlight of where we disagreed

 

[Srikaleak]

Yea, a lot of your gripes revolve around the prize table and it is a valid concern.
ROI is a very interesting topic regarding sponsors, match hosts and participants along with furthering "the sport". I always thought it was silly that the prize was an item and not trophy+cash. If they wanted to do raffle alongside the cash prizes that's great.
I love this topic because it's all new to me and I like trying to solve complex problems.

 

[Shippj]

If I havent illustrated the point, I am far from a pro-shooter. As a caveat is there any pro shooters? People who only shoot for their living? Jerry Miculek? Max Michelle? Honestly I dont know.

I think the difference is perception. I dont see stages as competitor vs match designer. I see them as competitor trying to solve a problem, utilizing his strengths, better than another competitor. Ben Stoeger ( 6? time national pistol champ in production and a little of a controversial figure) hosts classes where he would have people run stages with the best and worse stage plans. His point being that the stage plans didnt matter, all the gaming might help you slightly, but the shooting mattered much, much more. For example if you gave me an MBA chassis, super duper bipod, tactical sniper wonder tripod, the best newest gamer caliber and then gave you a .308 in a match, who is going to win? I would bet my money on you, skills and experience will trump the newest widget every time. I will cede that at like skill levels, those accessories can make the difference. But you still have to practice with them.

Enough of that though, I will agree that we disagree. And even that doesnt matter as I dont shoot national level matches (of any discipline). I do little local and State level matches and have alot of fun.

As for the prize table, you are absolutely right on that. I wish they would just get rid of them. Why would anyone donate their sweat and blood just to see someone else piss it away on facebook at 60% value? If I donated my widget to the prize table and a shooter put it up for sale 30 minutes after walking the prize table I would say to hell with that match. The coupon code is a fabulous idea, ideally though you are shooting for the fun, friends, and trying to beat your buddy so you can talk smack to him until the next match (as well as have an excuse to improve your skills).

Anyways man, good on ya. I like listening to your podcast.

 

[Lowlight]

The widgets and calibers make a huge difference,

308s hover around 40th Place + all things equal, in certain matches you can make up a bit of difference, but not as much as you think.

Funny how almost every "innovation Stage Solution" involves buying a new widget, I have yet to see any real innovation done without an accessory. Can you say Free Recoil... watch my videos the best equipment pointed at the target will hit with next to no shooter influence.

It's a gear race as I said above, if you can afford it, odds are you'll do well.

 

[kriller134]

I think a random drawing for prizes is the best way to do things. That way everyone has an equal chance of getting something great. Then have a cash purse for the top competitors. I don’t shoot prs, but if they did something like that I’d be more inclined to go spend money on an expensive match fee. As a newb, if I won a really nice prize, I’d tell everyone I know. That’d be good for the company donating the item and good for the prs.

 

[Tree]

Having done some local matches this year and talking to others who have shot national matches I would agree it is an equipment race. I recently was talking to an individual who likes to shoot Tactical class but to lowlights point about they can not compete against the open class. Top tactical shooter ended 20th overall and due to how the prize table was run there was nothing worth walking it for by that time. Personally I would like to see prize tables walked alternating open/tactical positions. This might get more people willing to shoot tactical. Heck man6 local matches don’t even separate the two divisions so there is no “benefit” to shoot a .308 or .223.

 

[Srikaleak]

Funny how almost every "innovation Stage Solution" involves buying a new widget, I have yet to see any real innovation done without an accessory. Can you say Free Recoil... watch my videos the best equipment pointed at the target will hit with next to no shooter influence.

It's time to bring about the Robotic PRS League. The ultimate widget.

 

[maverickasu]

I've honestly wondered why money doesn't run more like a bass tournament or varmint calling contest... Payout like 1 spot for ever 15-20 or so competitors. Trophy + cash, then do a raffle for any prize table offerings... makes make it worth winning but everybody gets a shot...

That said, that doesn't solve the what are WE doing for the sponsors side of thing @Lowlight brings up...

 

[mustang-cars]

I have been shooting in local matches for just a year is all. My first national level PRS match was Gunwerks in Cody. I try to look at things from the perspective of both individuals.

From the manufacturers stand point they want they're donation to the prize table to mean something(increased sales and exposure). They get that to some degree by being a sponsor and the shooters of the match seeing they're stuff on the table and the advertisement during the match. Maybe they don't get the best bang for their buck if the top guys sell the stuff a day later and maybe they do because some shooter somewhere gets it for 60% off. That we will never know because its impossible to track the effects positive or negative.

Secondly you have the shooters. Regardless of how much gaming is going on the top shooters are still probably really good. Whether you're a top shooter or just some newb like me who loves shooting and is trying desperately to get better you're putting a metric shit ton of time, money, and training into doing this. You as the shooter would like to see a return for your investment because that's what life is. If I win 1st place at a match I want to pick something awesome up off of the table because it makes me feel good and if I already have a piece of equipment that meets the niche then I'll sell it to supplement my ridiculously expensive hobby. By the way I've been at several matches where it was random draw for the prize table and I've so far walked the table in a worse place then what I actually placed.

The match aspect. I've shot mostly local matches. These are a good mix of PRS style and field matches. Everyone at these local matches has for the most part been very helpful in lending me gear and trying to help me succeed in everyway possible. The Cody match was a different experience for me. It was a lot more clickish and exclusive than I am used to. Everyone was friendly don't get me wrong it just felt like everyone was worried you were going to gain some information from them that would help you beat them. I think there is a lot of ego wrapped up in PRS and the competition is pretty fierce with only a few points separating the top 10 guys. This makes for an atmosphere that doesn't seem so inviting. It makes sense though. Some top 10 guy isn't going to stop what he's doing to help me out. He doesn't gain anything from doing that. Really not a whole lot of people out there doing anything in their life that doesn't personally benefit them.

In conclusion. This is a tough sport that has grown in popularity immensely. With that popularity there is quite a bit of money, prizes, and mild celebrity that goes along with that. I don't think there is an easy answer to solve the problem. Maybe I'm wrong. As for me I'll keep paying the money to compete in matches that aren't perfect because I'm passionate about shooting. My main goal is to have fun and get better. I shoot against myself. When I loose sight of that and try to be the best I always have a worse match. I help the new guys out because that's what you should do, even as a new guy myself.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

I kind of walk both lines at the same time. I think that PRS are over-rated as "the one true test of skill" and that all of the widgets are kind of fucking stupid to put it lightly. I also think 6 Dasher is fucking stupid. And I think free-recoil is fucking stupid. And using Benchrest triggers if fucking dumb but in a match where only hits matter and there are no equipment rules then that is what the sport is going to drift to.

And everyone that is a critic assumes that because some guys aren't happy, that the whole thing is broken. And for every stone thrower on the outside with a shred of credibility, there are 5 more saying "See this is why I don't shoot matches!" The same shit gets said about NRA Highpower all the damned time by old fucks who think the M14 was the only battle rifle that ever mattered. The reality is that most of these guys possess none of the skill or desire to do something as simple as shooting accurately at static targets at fixed distances with basically all of the advantages in the world...because it will bruise their ego. It's really easy to be a great shooter on the internet.

Here's a couple of dirty little secrets. Anyone that has the drive and dedication to rise to the top of one shooting sport almost certainly has the ability to do the same in another. Or to be at the top of multiple disciplines at the same time. Shooting fundamentals are the same across the board and being good at them helps in any discipline.

How far can fundamentals get you? Pretty fucking far. I beat 2/3rds of the shooters at the first large PRS match I went to by just knowing how to pull a trigger. I pulled a decent performance straight from my asshole just based on just applying good fundamentals. I had a 300 yard zero, a rough estimate of my velocity, and a cell phone. The main advantage I had was I had shot a metric shit ton of NRA Highpower and got almost kind of good at it. And the 2/3rds of the guys down the list from my know-nothing-I'm-just-here-to-shoot ass are pretty common faces at PRS matches, and some of them now represent some pretty big brands.

You know what else is a dirty little secret? It's gotten a whole hell of a lot more competitive; especially where I am from. The same guys keep coming back to the same matches. Look at the scores for the CORE Accuracy International Long Range Classic. The course of fire might be slightly different from year to year...but every match I have shot their has been VERY VERY similar. Same targets at the same distances and the same round count. 2016 was won with a score of 143 points by Shannon Kay. 2017 was 157 points. Shannon was 2nd with 151 points. This year Matt Brosseau won with 175 points.

I actually attended both the 2017 and 2018 matches so I can attest that the courses of fire were basically the same. The ranges were identical. Props were identical. Targets identical. Weather was identical. We might have shot in slightly different orders but that was about it. That's why I am comfortable using CORE as a benchmark. Shooting the same score at the same match as Shannon Kay did in 2016 would have put you all the way into 42nd place...I know because interestingly enough...that is what I did.

Why did it get more competitive? Because everyone wised up to how-to do it well. Every single stage is either "Here we built this wall so put a Gamechanger on it" or "Here is this table-top, rock, or car hood...put your bipod down and shoot prone." And only hits count so we went from 6.5mm down to 6mm...and then down to even smaller 6mm. And we're going to see some .224s next year with heavy bullets. And the triggers got lighter too...in 2016 your only real option for a Benchrest trigger was a Jewel...and it might break at the worst time. Now we have Bix and Trigger Tech in addition to Jewel. The equipment has gotten tailored to the sport.

But guess what? Those guys that had good fundamentals in 2016...are still fucking winning. Shannon Kay is basically top 10 of any match he goes to. Same goes for a lot of the guys that work at K&M. Yes it's a game...but it's not like having poor fundamentals does anything but help you. Even @Lowlight pulled a top 50% finish out of his ass while being a crippled ass old dude who shot a less-than-optimal gun with less-than-optimal ammo with less-than-optimal preparation. And they probably had the stupid ass PRS barricade that Frank isn't tall enough for because the Precision Rifle Series hates everyone that isn't a chisel jawed 6'4 Adonis. (And before Frank nukes me for making a short joke...I'm fucking short too...I get it...I hate the stupid barricade too...and the at least 2 stages every match where I have to come up with some inventive way to get taller...it's fucking dumb that invariably the tie breaker stage for the match puts us little people at a distinct disadvantage.)

Anyways incoherent bumblefuck of a rant over. I'm going to drink some Old Ocelot now.

 

[Lowlight]

Steppy Stool Frank

Can't reach the ground Frank

Not for nothing and I say this to him a lot, Shannon is the worst best shooter I have ever seen, he has terrible fundamentals, slaps the trigger, off to the side, he is naturally a very good shot. When I shot with him in the past I would always tell him this.

Doing the same thing over and over will of course increase scores, the more you practice exactly what you will encounter the better you will get. These guys have actually gotten pretty lazy stage wise with a few notable exceptions to the rules. if they do what is expected, the Top 10 can then practice it to perfection. We used to always strive to change at least 50% of the match. In some cases more, the SHC was always a different match compared to the Shooter's Bash. We would test new concepts at the Bash and refine stuff for the Cup.

it's designed to help those who attend more matches. Guys at Gunwerks referred to the South East, Core and K&M Matches as "Meatball Matches" their words not mine. Makes sense when you consider they figured out how to game a match so guys can score more points attending "ours vs theirs"

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

Not for nothing and I say this to him a lot, Shannon is the worst best shooter I have ever seen, he has terrible fundamentals, slaps the trigger, off to the side, he is naturally a very good shot. When I shot with him in the past I would always tell him this.

Doing the same thing over and over will of course increase scores, the more you practice exactly what you will encounter the better you will get. These guys have actually gotten pretty lazy stage wise with a few notable exceptions to the rules. if they do what is expected, the Top 10 can then practice it to perfection. We used to always strive to change at least 50% of the match. In some cases more, the SHC was always a different match compared to the Shooter's Bash. We would test new concepts at the Bash and refine stuff for the Cup.

it's designed to help those who attend more matches. Guys at Gunwerks referred to the South East, Core and K&M Matches as "Meatball Matches" their words not mine. Makes sense when you consider they figured out how to game a match so guys can score more points attending "ours vs theirs"

I'll have to take pictures of "Tippy Toe Dan" this weekend. Or "Stands on his backpack Dan".

I use CORE as an example because it's one that I have been to for the past 2 years, so I can say with confidence that the course of fire was basically the same. I am sure if you looked at the top scores across the board you would find that they have gone up over the past 3 years.

I've never squadded up with Shannon, so I don't know what his fundamentals are. But part of being a good shooter is also knowing how much slop you can get away with. If you looked at Brandon Greens scores during the Highpower matches you would assume that he is meticulous, plans carefully, and is well organized. If you actually saw how he gets to where he is you would realize that it's basically total fucking chaos and he is liable to completely change something mid-match that nobody in their right mind would recommend.

Or if you wanted to look at PRS Matches, I would use Troy Lawton as an example of a guy that knows how fundamentals work. He's old as fuck and won the P100 rifle trophy, and probably a metric ton of trophies on the international side of the house. Now he shoots PRS, but if you ever watch him shoot, you'll see that he has a very distinct trigger strategy. He shoots a BR trigger and basically uses the air space in the trigger guard as the first stage and touches the trigger. It's stupid but it works...and there's no limitations on the pull weight of the rifles so...why not?

There's only one thing that matters at the end of the day...did the firing pin hit the primer when the gun was pointed where it was needed to be? Everything else is designed to help get you to that point. You can be a good shooter by building a good position where the gun is locked on the target and trigger control doesn't matter...or you can build a piss poor position and have perfect trigger control and still be good. And the truth is that once you reach a certain point you realize that sometimes the dogma doesn't matter that much and because we are under match pressure we aren't trying to take the perfect shot. One of the first lessons that stuck with me from AMU was to "shoot the first 10 you see"

I've seen the "Meatball Match" comments before. And in different types of competitions. When I lived in Washington, guys at the National Matches would deride some Washington shooters as "Machias High Masters"...because Machias is a range that rarely has a wind condition. Guess what? The bulk of the United States U25 Palma team were "Machias High Masters." A good bit of the US National Team were shooters from the PNW.

Everyone likes to think that there venue is the hardest, most bad ass thing on the planet. I've heard shooters from CORE complain the Alabama is too easy because the targets are bigger. The targets are bigger because there's likely to be 35mph of wind in the afternoon. I'm sure CORE shooters would complain that the Gunwerks match was too easy because it had a 2 minute time limit instead of 90 seconds.

There might be some truth to it. But I haven't seen the points I get drastically affected by the venue. Well it never effects me because I'm not paying for a stupid $100 T-shirt in the off chance that I qualify for a finale I won't be able to afford to go to. But if I did...I would have gotten roughly the same amount of points at CORE as I would have at MPA as I would have got at AL Precision as I would have got at Steel City. Maybe I'll shoot this weekend and come back and bitch about it.

And PRS stages are unimaginative. They are silly. They are boring. Oh look...we built a wall...but this time it's with bricks...and we're calling it Trumps wall. Oh the next stage is also a wall...but now it's made out of wood. Next stage is off of this nice big flat cable spool we flipped over. Next stage is the stupid god damned PRS Barricade. Oh shit we went really crazy and the next stage is a wall...but now the sides are diagonal. Well...walls are boring..why don't we shoot out of windows...in a connex...that look auspiciously like another wall. What if we made the wall out of metal tubing? THAT'S A GREAT FUCKING IDEA! Well...we want a more field like stage...I know...the wall is made with rustic logs with bark on them.

But the alternative was Joe Harris style matches where the stage was "Walk over this balance beam while reciting the Declaration of Independence with all of your gear. Shoot at this 12 inch by 2 inch ruler hanging from a tree at 750 yards. You must also hum Africa by Toto at the end to confirm your points. Otherwise you get nothing."

 

[Jack Master]

To address the prize grabbers/sellers:
How about hitting the prize table in Flights, like most golf tournaments (I HATE golf). Example of 50 shooters, First flight - 1st through 5th get prizes, Second Flight 11-13, Third flight 21-23, Fourth Flight 31-33, fifth flight 41-33. This will make the top flight of shooters compete against each other for the prize table and help the shooter in the middle and bottom of the score board. If the top shooters want to game the competition, go for it! They are only beating each other from the prize table. Choosing the flights can be done several ways; 1)Based on # of shooters 2) Based on % of score or hits. 3)... With flights getting 6th sucks, but so does getting 34th and makes getting 31st pretty sweat. This way every shooter as just a much chance at a good prize as the top 10 or 20 guys. The sponsors are also likely to get a higher return on investment. The top 20 guys won't like this idea, but the rest of the field will.

 

[LH_Gina]

Sure man, you have been doing this along time. Thank you for your service and so forth. I have not been doing it very long. I dropped my retirement paperwork a few years ago, in my last year got sent to the 3 shop for my last 6 months and starting shooting competitions cause I was bored and it was fun. So I don’t have near the experience in these matches that you do.

But if you don’t spell it out then how are you going to communicate your point? No one can read your mind. We are supposed to know what the stage designer was thinking? Sure you may know, you got your own forum and been doing this a long time. I’m new. I haven’t been around and don’t know what is in his (the stage designers) mind (and that we do it that way because that’s the way it’s always done).


I go back to 3gun as an example because they have solved a lot of these problems. During the RO match stages get troubleshot and the range master makes calls. Some stages get reworked or descriptions get rewritten. It sucks because you might have to shoot them over again if your in the RO match. Life moves on and hopefully the bugs are worked out before the main match. But now the MD is aware of possible holes and probably fixed them, and the ROs are aware of the MDs intent.

Some matches do actually let the RO's shoot the COF. In AZ, we just call it a "club match" and don't let those registered for a 2-day national level event attend. We break up our big match over a couple of months and use those matches to proof stages, change stage times, move targets closer or farther, make targets bigger or smaller, usually simplify confusing instructions, and let our RO's game the crap out of everything so the MD's can rewrite the stages to limit gaming at the big show.

 

[Redeye3]

This is the stuff that really turns me off and why I no longer am a PRS paying member. Yes these were within the rules but really...........

It has become who can game the system better.

View attachment 6929561


and this "Shooting with the assistance of the tripod made this pretty dang easy since the targets were fairly large and forgiving. I cleaned this stage as well, gaining 9/9 points."

 

[Redeye3]

For the 2 shots he had to take from that position I believe it was a good decision. Cof should have said "rifle must be supported by rope"

Could have used a backpack to support entire rifle above the rope. It's a game as Frank said not a professional sport. Game it within guidelines or make you're intentions clear on course of fire.

RO makes final call when reading stage brief.

 

[Precision Underground]

How about say bring your rifle and your ammo and leave the tripods, huge ridic bags, and other no way you would be using this in the real world stuff at home.

 

[Redeye3]

How about say bring your rifle and your ammo and leave the tripods, huge ridic bags, and other no way you would be using this in the real world stuff at home.

Should start a new series with that Mentality which I like?

Just pointing out for the 2 shots he took from that position was not a gamechanger, He finishes top place very often by working out the problem in a little bit of time. I don't care what bag bipod he uses it's still challenging to say the least.

What really grinds my gears is when people start moving props, last 2day I went to shooters were moving the hay bales around So they could lay prone between them. There's definite line that gets crossed Frequently.

 

[Shippj]

How about say bring your rifle and your ammo and leave the tripods, huge ridic bags, and other no way you would be using this in the real world stuff at home.

Oh? What “real world” can you not have a tripod, or a bag (assault pack), or various other things that you decide to hump?

 

[Shippj]

What really grinds my gears is when people start moving props, last 2day I went to shooters were moving the hay bales around So they could lay prone between them. There's definite line that gets crossed Frequently.

This should be automatic match DQ and possibly removal from he series. USPSA had this issue at a match a few years ago and I believe they kicked the person out of the .org.

 

[Redeye3]

I watched the Ultimate sniper challenge (army/marines/etc) on the History Channel the other day, Each one had a tripod/ rucksack/ front support bag/etc (being used when allowed). Those guys are the best of the best in the real world.

One of the stages they ran was supposed to be unsupported standing at 200yrd, they used their shooting buddy as support for rifle. Gaming no realistic yes.

 

[Precision Underground]

Oh? What “real world” can you not have a tripod, or a bag (assault pack), or various other things that you decide to hump?

You are right. It would not be ridic to go in the field with these at all...... Screw carrying water and ammo I need muh bag!

Train so that you don't need a bunch of "stuff" to shoot well. One day you won't have your crutch when you need it.

 

[Tree]

Would love to see someone run a match with the following rules:

Everything except rifle must be securely contained in or on your pack. (Bags must be inside pack, tripod if allowed secured to pack)
Pack size limited to xx
All stages start with pack on (gear secured to pack) rifle in hands
Shooter has 2 minutes to setup and engage targets according to stage description.

 

[stevenc23]

Would love to see someone run a match with the following rules:

Everything except rifle must be securely contained in or on your pack. (Bags must be inside pack, tripod if allowed secured to pack)
Pack size limited to xx
All stages start with pack on (gear secured to pack) rifle in hands
Shooter has 2 minutes to setup and engage targets according to stage description.

You pretty much described all Competition Dynamics matches
Except no limit to pack size but you have to carry all of your gear through entire match



.

 

[Precision Underground]

Would love to see someone run a match with the following rules:

Everything except rifle must be securely contained in or on your pack. (Bags must be inside pack, tripod if allowed secured to pack)
Pack size limited to xx
All stages start with pack on (gear secured to pack) rifle in hands
Shooter has 2 minutes to setup and engage targets according to stage description.

This. And say anything you plan on eating or drinking drinking during the match in your bag as well! Make them choose between water and a big ass stupid bag lol.

 

[Shippj]

This. And say anything you plan on eating or drinking drinking during the match in your bag as well! Make them choose between water and a big ass stupid bag lol.

Oh you can go to a stage and have to compete AT level 1 AND stay awake during a 70 slide power point brief about summer safety before you can move on. That way you can really pretend your in the Army.

 

[Precision Underground]

Oh you can go to a stage and have to compete AT level 1 AND stay awake during a 70 slide power point brief about summer safety before you can move on. That way you can really pretend your in the Army.

If being able to shoot well without needing a bunch of crap means pretending to be in the army then i guess I'm guilty as charged......

 

[Tree]

Oh you can go to a stage and have to compete AT level 1 AND stay awake during a 70 slide power point brief about summer safety before you can move on. That way you can really pretend your in the Army.

Ignorant post. Not trying to mimic the military rather limit the equipment race.

 

[Luvman]

I'm not a match shooter. I doubt I ever will be. For me it's about the indian, not the arrow.

I would however be interested in matches if they were more geared towards the field/fundamentals.

It would be nice if shooters with a box stock .308 rifle like a tikka or bergara with a $1000 scope could be competitive in matches.

Here's how I would do it:

Minimum trigger pull weight ~ 2.5lbs
All shooters would shoot the same ammo, provided or bought at the match (.223, .308, and 6.5CM only)
Max barrel length - 26" for .223 and .308, 20" for 6.5CM
Max rifle weight 15lbs or so
Max 1 bag
Field type bipods only
Shooting a stage from tripod gets a scoring penalty of some percent ( 20-40 maybe)
Shooting a stage from only sling support gets scoring bonus percent
Seasoned shooters could earn bonus time on a stage for coaching new shooters
Hell while we are at it lets put an "A" zone on some targets that are 1MOA or smaller. Hits here would get bonus points

I'd would like to shoot a match like that. I have no clue if it would be popular or not.

 

[Precision Underground]

I'm not a match shooter. I doubt I ever will be. For me it's about the indian, not the arrow.

I would however be interested in matches if they were more geared towards the field/fundamentals.

It would be nice if shooters with a box stock .308 rifle like a tikka or bergara with a $1000 scope could be competitive in matches.

Here's how I would do it:

Minimum trigger pull weight ~ 2.5lbs
All shooters would shoot the same ammo, provided or bought at the match (.223, .308, and 6.5CM only)
Max barrel length - 26" for .223 and .308, 20" for 6.5CM
Max rifle weight 15lbs or so
Max 1 bag
Field type bipods only
Shooting a stage from tripod gets a scoring penalty of some percent ( 20-40 maybe)
Shooting a stage from only sling support gets scoring bonus percent
Seasoned shooters could earn bonus time on a stage for coaching new shooters
Hell while we are at it lets put an "A" zone on some targets that are 1MOA or smaller. Hits here would get bonus points

I'd would like to shoot a match like that. I have no clue if it would be popular or not.

Mostly agree except for ammo and barrel length. Making everyone shoot the same ammo would be unfair because my gun may hate that ammo. And if you want to lug a 30" palma be my guest but make stages that would be hard on a 30" palma. I would be interested in a match that tested the shooter and his/her ability to make shots without crutches.

No issue with tripods but make a tripod stage where everyone shoots off of a tripod. Using a tripod when the stage clearly is calling for support from a prop should be impossible because there should not be time to set it up.

 

[Luvman]

Mostly agree except for ammo and barrel length. Making everyone shoot the same ammo would be unfair because my gun may hate that ammo. And if you want to lug a 30" palma be my guest but make stages that would be hard on a 30" palma. I would be interested in a match that tested the shooter and his/her ability to make shots without crutches.

No issue with tripods but make a tripod stage where everyone shoots off of a tripod. Using a tripod when the stage clearly is calling for support from a prop should be impossible because there should not be time to set it up.

Very valid points!

The barrel length thing is my attempt at narrowing gap the 6.5's have over the .223 and .308. The ammo restriction is my attempt at leveling the field as well. I'm sure there's a better way to accomplish that, but you get the idea.

It would be nice if there where a precision type match that a shooter could show up with a box stock .308 rifle with mid level glass and their gear wouldn't be what limits a finish in the top half of the pack.

Frank mentioned a guy in one of the podcasts that went 3 for 3 cold at a mile with his 30-06 hunting rifle. That shit impresses me!

 

[MarinePMI]

It would be nice if there where a precision type match that a shooter could show up with a box stock .308 rifle with mid level glass and their gear wouldn't be what limits a finish in the top half of the pack.

Pretty sure that was what the "Production" class of PRS was intended to do.