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The Everyday Sniper Episode 84 Gunwerks AAR
- Thread starter Lowlight
- Start date
The problem with all of the suggestions of limiting the equipment race is that it comes from people that do not and will not shoot matches. If there was an actual demand for "Sniper" or "Practical matches" or 308 only there would be more than the 1 or 2 per year and there wouldn't be any problem filling up slots.
PRS exists because of repeat customers and that's what it serves. It's much easier to fill a match that is a free for all than one with some arbitrary rules to limit gaming. Gaming is a problem but it's vastly overstated. Most guys are basically playing golf with guns...not trying to prepare for a Syria deployment. Being allowed to be inventive is a lot more rewarding than matches that are so limited that everyone has the same setup.
Guys that don't shoot bitch about bags and what not, but real world practicality is much more boring and mundane. Where in the real world are you going to fire a 10 shot string in 2 minutes from a truck? The most real world thing that most will do is put some meat on the ground with a well aimed shot.
Guess what? Hunting isn't especially hard. I take my gamer changer bag to the tree stand in the fall to use as a rifle rest. I carry a fat bag in my ruck at work and use it as a pillow in my sleeping bag.
PRS exists because of repeat customers and that's what it serves. It's much easier to fill a match that is a free for all than one with some arbitrary rules to limit gaming. Gaming is a problem but it's vastly overstated. Most guys are basically playing golf with guns...not trying to prepare for a Syria deployment. Being allowed to be inventive is a lot more rewarding than matches that are so limited that everyone has the same setup.
Guys that don't shoot bitch about bags and what not, but real world practicality is much more boring and mundane. Where in the real world are you going to fire a 10 shot string in 2 minutes from a truck? The most real world thing that most will do is put some meat on the ground with a well aimed shot.
Guess what? Hunting isn't especially hard. I take my gamer changer bag to the tree stand in the fall to use as a rifle rest. I carry a fat bag in my ruck at work and use it as a pillow in my sleeping bag.
should have qualified for the 2016 Finale cause thats how it was ran
no tripods (unless provided on the stage), all stages started gear in hand, you had to move with your gear thru the stage, and then move to the next stage area once completed
most everything that people suggest has been done somewhere at some point...
Was that the finale that wasn't really well liked because the course was so hard that the winner only hit half the targets?
no cause i hit way more than 1/2 the targets and i wasnt the winner
That’s what I did. Well, I rode up there with one buddy who was also new. Do it! You’ll meet some like minded/like-experienced people. There was always a ton of 1st timers at the 3 local matches I’ve done.
If I came across like I was bitching that wasn’t my intention.
I don’t have any interest in PRS because it’s not applicable to how or why I’m passionate about precision rifles. I don’t have anything against it. I think it’s great that it’s so popular.
I’m not a gamer. I have no interest in a gear race. I want to be a better field shooter.
With PRS being so popular maybe it’s time to test the waters to see if there’s enough interest to support a different twist on things. And maybe grow some new shooters.
I don’t have any interest in PRS because it’s not applicable to how or why I’m passionate about precision rifles. I don’t have anything against it. I think it’s great that it’s so popular.
I’m not a gamer. I have no interest in a gear race. I want to be a better field shooter.
With PRS being so popular maybe it’s time to test the waters to see if there’s enough interest to support a different twist on things. And maybe grow some new shooters.
Hey Frank, love the podcast and SH. As a new precision rifle shooter/competitor these have been invaluable tools for me. This drama though is killing me, quit beating around the bush and tell it like it is or drop it. Let us know what to look for and what the PRS should do to advance the sport. If you don’t want to go down this “rabbit hole” then quit bringing it up and put some good material on the podcast like you always have man.
Also Frank when you coming to Mississippi to put on some training. I messaged you on Instagram to get some details on how to attend one of your training classes. Thanks
FNG here...so don’t shoot me for the response. Rewarding the top shooters/scorers with cash makes sense. Right now, almost all the match cash goes to the range owner which, to be fair, they should get a significant amount or it wouldn’t be worth it to put on a match. However, 2 day matches with 200+ contestants at ~$300 each contestant adds up ~60k for a weekend venue. Knowing that a lot of the RO’s are volunteers and most of the prizes are donated by sponsors increases the range’s intake...again, not knocking them making money. Perhaps a cash payout to the shooters somewhere near 40-50% of the intake would be appropriate and use the donated items from sponsors as raffle items to the rest of the shooters? Additionally, sponsors could be tapped to donate both cash toward the payout as well as a product. Some of this may be happening now...not sure what the numbers are to put together a large match.
I’m going to have to remember this next time we have to shoot a floating platform. Jam bags and backpack into corner so it does move.
Lmao. That makes the whole sport look like a joke. Hence why I have zero interest in joining in on something like this.
Again, make them leave their big ass dorky bags and tripods at home and he would have had to shoot the stage as designed.
Production class is a novel idea, but the gear itself is not the entire issue or even close to it.
The entire sport lacks a mentoring system or a clear entry. Ya, go shoot that club match over there etc.. it still is NOT easy for new match shooters to transition from enthusiastic about shooting a long range targets to entering a positional match.
Just like a pyramid scheme, the base runs out fast if you don’t get new blood to enjoy matches.
Bitching isn’t the answer either, action is. Figuring out what will get some of you in this thread who have not shot LR positional matches, to come out and experience a match, not to mention a new shooter is the Key.
It is not only the PRS, that needs to change if we are hoping for sustainability muchless growth.
Frank’s topics spurred our local match director to reach out to me and ask for the hide’s feedback on what he could, should do, to change and encourage new shooters.
As far as spelling out COF, I don’t believe one needs to write a book. Download a NRL22 COF it is so simply spelled out.
If the match directors can figure out how to keep their base, yet get more new shooter to join they will have found the answer.
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For me, watching a clown shove a huge bag and a tripod he brought with him into an obstical to change the obstical, and then watch no one say a word about it except “impact”, makes me never want to be associated with a match like that. Can I bring by toolbox and some scrap wood and deck screws to change obstacles? If no, why not? I don’t like needing to haul around a bunch of crap to be able to shoot well and a damn sure am not going to pay money to go shoot a match where I have to carry a bunch of crap around to be able to cheat well... or ahem...”game” well. I always thought guys looked silly running around with lazy-boys attached to their arms but that video puts it on a whole other level.
Exactly, at my local match that I run, this dude would be made fun of so hard. As well as stage DQ. Since it’s a local match I’d let him reshoot it as the stage was intended. But at a big 2 day match. Stage DQ and leave it at that. If he doesn’t understand why, that explains everything.
The answer is really, really simple. Bring your rifle, bipod, and size restricted rear bag(not big enough to be able to cheat with). If you want ingenuity to be part of it give them a few props and tell them to go to town. Not being able to bring a bunch of crap from home leaves them with no props to cheat with. I can’t imagine why bringing huge bags and tripods with you ever became part of the whole deal.
The first few thoughts that came to me are:
"if you're not cheating, you're not trying"
"don't hate da playa, hate da game"
and lastly "that's gay as fuck"
Man you guys sure like to bump your gums behind the keyboard, yet you don't ever get out and shoot and try to get better at it. The video above was from this past weekend's NRL match at Conway Way Lead Distributors in Kansas. I wrote the course of fire for the match. This is one of 21 stages shot. This was an entirely positional match, no prone. What Brian did was within the rules set forth. No gear restrictions, but you had to carry all of it with you for the whole match and everything had to start in your hands. Was it necessary? No, but do what you have to get the hits. There were plenty of other shooters that cleaned this stage simply using their bipod and rear bag. There were also people that tried to jam bags in to reduce the wobble that timed out or missed shots. It still comes down to knowing your skills and what tools to carry to get the job done. Get out and shoot and get better at it. Figure out what works for you to get the job done. Quit criticizing what others do when it works for them.
Uh...hic28, NoLegs24 and I run and shoot matches constantly at our range, so I wouldn't say we don't get out and shoot (pretty bold statement coming from a keyboard without knowing the background of who you're speaking to). If your match allows this kind of thing, so be it, it's your match. That being said, I don't see the point of shooting this stage allowing the behavior shown in the video. We're all shooting (well, most of us) to get to become better marksman, not to become better at picking apart a stage CoF. Allowing people to game/defeat the intent of the stage CoF really does nothing for their shooting skills, it just displays a problem solving prowess. If I wanted to do that, I'd play crossword puzzles or tetris.
JMTCW...
the above happening was entirely on the RO, but it sounds like the MD set it up for things like that to happen which IMO is fine...would i have shot it like that? nah...but making shooters set everything up on the clock with no pre-staged gear, fine by me
and quit mentioning tripods in with all the 10 different bags, jamming it under a prop is 1 thing (that can easily be stopped by an RO), but a good tripod is prolly the single most useful tool other than a rangefinder for being able to engage targets at extended distances where prone isnt an option, if you dont understand that, get out more...
and quit mentioning tripods in with all the 10 different bags, jamming it under a prop is 1 thing (that can easily be stopped by an RO), but a good tripod is prolly the single most useful tool other than a rangefinder for being able to engage targets at extended distances where prone isnt an option, if you dont understand that, get out more...
Yea he started with a fully deployed and locked down tripod in his hands, not exactly the way it should go. Stages should start from zero. If you want to write it to allow for this at least make them start with their gear from a starting position. You white the stages and are the only one here saying the video is ok. Do you see the problem?
Get out and shoot more to get better? What? Exactly what we are making fun of is people who want to game the system rather than just shooting better. Who is a better shooter? Someone who can make hits without needing all of that crap to game the stage or someone who spends more money and carries more crap? How about make them climb an obstical before shooting and see if they can do it with a lazy-boy and a fully deployed tripod. The guy in the video could barely walk 15 feet to the stage the way he was carrying all of his crap.
If you are going to allow all of that there should be a trade off for guys who come streamlined with minimal equipment. Make it like a cross country race where different vehicles have advantages and disadvantages. Vehicles with bigger tires and suspension do better on the off road stages. Faster, more streamlined cars do better on the road stages. Right now it seems like the idea is that whoever carries the most crap and thinks of the best way to cheat has the advantage. Not everyone wants to play that game. I know I don’t.
The dude had his tripod already deployed and locked where he wanted it before the start. That’s not starting without prestaged gear.
I’ve got no problem with tripods but using a tripod on a stage not designed for a tripod defeats the purpose of the stage. Make a tripod stage and say you can use your own or use this one if you don’t have one. But to make carrying a tripod necessary to be on a level playing field with others who carry them is ridic. Especially when they are used to alter the way a stage was designed.
????. This place is loaded with “experts”, none of which were there, none of which had a clue how the COF was written. So you are speaking out of ignorance.
Was it something I wouldve done as a shooter? No way, but was it well within the rules and perfectly fine? Absolutely.
Was it something I wouldve done as a shooter? No way, but was it well within the rules and perfectly fine? Absolutely.
Tell me why you wouldn't do it. Is it because you don't want to look ridic like he did? In that case, is a match simply giving money to people who are willing to look sillier than you to win prizes? That is quite the model for matches. Why wouldn't you have shot the stage the way he did? Pinning the platform down is obviously going to give an advantage. Do you enjoy paying money to shoot at a disadvantage to keep from looking like a clown?
I’m new but I shoot local matches, not just bump my gums in the forum. I don’t see any practicality in this... Why even bother having the platform if this is allowed? Is this a shooting match, or a “let’s be clever and negate the obstacle” contest? This is a joke.
Is this being defended because it simply wasn’t thought of when the CoF was written?
Just my opinion, but when this is perfectly fine, I want nothing to do with that match. Why even have a floating platform if that is allowed? The tripod already set up off the clock is just icing on the cake... This is a joke.
when im walking around hunting i leave my tripod deployed with the legs extended for kneeling
why is it necessary? ive seen plenty of shooters use only 1 bag and out shoot everyone trying to use tripods and multiple bags...matt won the entire PRS last year basically using 1 bag...quit making imaginary excuses
this shows you dont know who is at the top of prs matches and HOW they are shooting to get there...and is why sideline chatter is pretty much ignored
While there might be a couple of people in this thread who have not shot possitional matches, seems you might be misunderstanding some in the crowd.
I get that you are unhappy with the feedback. But wouldn’t it be better to take the feedback and consider how you might make your COF appeal to more people?
I’ve seen No legs and Hic attack problems on a stage most of us would not of have the presence of mind to find the solution, then kick ass. Meanwhile, something simple like a dropped gun and broken scope screws my head and I choose to DNF, but if I had half the head those two do, would have figured out where the hell the gun was shooting and just tried to use the reticle. The entire point here is, the guys are giving you good valuable feedback and do have experience.
Or local MD is even asking for a simple survey of shooters both from his matches and the outside. He is even looking for people’s opinion that have not “yet” shot matches. Why because he’d like to figure out a way to get new shooters into the sport. Listening, learning and adapting is what will help the sport not getting our feelings hurt.
Btw his matches are currently full, they’re not giant, but if MDs at the local level, ignore feedback, the bigger matches will go away with an empty pipeline.
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Says Johnny Come lately,
We have been doing matches since before you knew what a tactical rifle was...
When you have 15+ of experience you can give us a lecture
Are you seriously telling me you walk around hunting like this?? That is funny if you actually do.
I did not say the people using all of their ghay props to game the system would always be or beat the top shooters. I said they would have an advantage. Maybe it makes someone who doesn't practice as much as me or shoot as good as me beat me by 1 impact and cause me to lose a spot at the prize table. Someone like me who has never shot one of these types of matches has no desire to do so because of the stupid games being played. The excuse is that they are being ingenuitive but that's not the case. Maybe I will join a match and bring along a big concrete base with a sandbag attached to it that I can use to defeat any unsteady obstacle. I'v got no problem carrying 70 LBS 15 feet to walk up to the line. If the COF didn't say "no big concrete bases with bags attached to them" it should be legal, right? I mean, I usually carry one around when I hunt......
Perception is reality
If the public perception of what you're doing is stupid, uninviting, contrived, etc, fill in any blank you like, the reality is, it is.
Doesn't matter if they are there or not, if they are experienced or not, it only matters what they think moving forward.
If the public perception of what you're doing is stupid, uninviting, contrived, etc, fill in any blank you like, the reality is, it is.
Doesn't matter if they are there or not, if they are experienced or not, it only matters what they think moving forward.
This is why I like matches like Mammoth when it was in Kentucky and you had to hump 3-5 miles between stages. No one carried this much shit.
Exactly. This guy knows the truth. Matt carries one bag and fucks up peoples feelings every match. The rest of clowns running too much equipment cost themselves points and will never reach that top level, period. Oh and bitching on the internet wont get you there either.
The videos where Phillip Velayo starts a stage with a tripod fully closed/collapsed is cool! I dig that!
Shooting a stage with the tripod already set without time constraints, and using a shooting bag the size of a backpack is hilarious. Yea naw, no thanks to that silliness...
Shooting a stage with the tripod already set without time constraints, and using a shooting bag the size of a backpack is hilarious. Yea naw, no thanks to that silliness...
matches are on the weekends, the evenings and during the week are for discussing on the internet, you know like SH where all this started
There would not be any Series if we didn't discuss on the internet
There would not be any Series if we didn't discuss on the internet
Conway Lead and MadBeems are two of my friends. We're all only 3-4 years into this particular sport, but we've grown rapidly.
But I wholeheartedly disagree with their responses. Somebody needs to post a video of the match brief from day 1. There was 5 minutes dedicated to this exact subject. What I gathered from it, was that the intent of each stage was clear, and we were expected to follow it. I believe the phrase "if we hung a rope there, we expect you to shoot from the rope, not prone beside it" was used. Maybe I completely misunderstood what was said. (My significant other would say that was highly likely)
I believe what happened was when the heavy rains came in early Sunday morning, there job became 10x more difficult. If they had been able to give the RO's stage rundowns, I think it would have been addressed at that point.
It's a shame that they are put in this position to begin with, simply because nobody can agree on what's ok, and what isn't. I personally only dropped 2 shots by simply kneeling behind it the way I believed it was supposed to be done, and I would have cleaned it on a good day.
Part of the problem is centered around those who believe that guys who aren't gaming, aren't doing it because they couldn't think of a "better" way. The other part is because of the guys who thought of it, but chose not to because they thought it was Wrong.
If this stuff is OK, then the sanctioning body needs to come out and clearly say so. If it's not OK, then they need to draw a line. Arguing about it afterwords isn't good for anybody.
Rant off......
But I wholeheartedly disagree with their responses. Somebody needs to post a video of the match brief from day 1. There was 5 minutes dedicated to this exact subject. What I gathered from it, was that the intent of each stage was clear, and we were expected to follow it. I believe the phrase "if we hung a rope there, we expect you to shoot from the rope, not prone beside it" was used. Maybe I completely misunderstood what was said. (My significant other would say that was highly likely)
I believe what happened was when the heavy rains came in early Sunday morning, there job became 10x more difficult. If they had been able to give the RO's stage rundowns, I think it would have been addressed at that point.
It's a shame that they are put in this position to begin with, simply because nobody can agree on what's ok, and what isn't. I personally only dropped 2 shots by simply kneeling behind it the way I believed it was supposed to be done, and I would have cleaned it on a good day.
Part of the problem is centered around those who believe that guys who aren't gaming, aren't doing it because they couldn't think of a "better" way. The other part is because of the guys who thought of it, but chose not to because they thought it was Wrong.
If this stuff is OK, then the sanctioning body needs to come out and clearly say so. If it's not OK, then they need to draw a line. Arguing about it afterwords isn't good for anybody.
Rant off......
Are you seriously telling me you walk around hunting like this?? That is funny if you actually do.
I did not say the people using all of their ghay props to game the system would always be or beat the top shooters. I said they would have an advantage. Maybe it makes someone who doesn't practice as much as me or shoot as good as me beat me by 1 impact and cause me to lose a spot at the prize table. Someone like me who has never shot one of these types of matches has no desire to do so because of the stupid games being played. The excuse is that they are being ingenuitive but that's not the case. Maybe I will join a match and bring along a big concrete base with a sandbag attached to it that I can use to defeat any unsteady obstacle. I'v got no problem carrying 70 LBS 15 feet to walk up to the line. If the COF didn't say "no big concrete bases with bags attached to them" it should be legal, right? I mean, I usually carry one around when I hunt......
theres a pack on my back, rifle slung, and tripod over my shoulder set up for kneeling...i could have done the same thing he did by throwing my pack up front and my tripod under the platform with little effort...maybe he should have had his pack on his back, big deal...if im out walking i can kick the tripod open and drop the rifle into it in ~20-30 sec, and be on an animal in a position to observe and take a good shot at any distance im comfortable with
every swinging/chain ive ever shot has specifically addressed in the stage brief "no touching the chains/ground/support structure to stabilize the platform"....sounds like this one didnt, so be it
show up with your bag of concrete...we'll see how long you last carrying it from stage to stage
Thanks for the context. I wouldn’t have thought of shooting that stage that way, but even if I would, I’d have probably refrained. Just doesn’t seem to go with the intent of how it’s supposed to be shot, to me. That mentality will probably keep me from ever winning a match and I’m okay with that.
i have legit had guys ask if they could bring a portable bench...told them the same thing, long as you carry it...no one has tried yet
I understand that 100% too. But what all these internet “snipers” need to understand is, this is a game, nothing more. In a real world situation you wouldnt put a rifle on a shaky platform, or shoot off a bouncy tree branch. You would find a solid position, or build one, or shoot off your already deployed tripod you are using for your binos. Ya’ll get so hung up on one little detail and beat the fuck out of it. What about the 20 other stages that were written and built fool proof? I appreciate the criticism, I actually enjoy it, but try and do a better job of being more of a supporter, rather than this “HMFIC of this shit” that feeds on he drama and the misguided ignorance that runs rampant on here. Im not into the drama, im into the shooting portion of it.
My rules were
1. No sharing equipment, period.
2. If you use it, you must carry it from stage to stage BY YOURSELF, and you must start the stage with it in hand.
3. Rifle must be supported on barricade.
4. No euipment restrictions, if you carry it, you can use it.
5. No prone on bipod.
Which rule did he break?
Every top shooter we had loved the match, it was a bit out of the ordinary and not exactly as you “purists” think it should be. Thats fine, thats a free America. You do you, Ill do me. Shooters that want to shoot it next year will. Shooters that dont, will scour the internet the monday after and tear it apart. Perfect. Save us all the trouble and send your complaints and critisim to me directly. Ill be glad to review all of it and use relevant info for improvement, and will thouroughly enjoy shredding the rest. [email protected]
Thanks for your time Frank. We’ll see you up here next year, or on the internets the Monday following.
I'm not carrying it from stage to stage. That is what my tactical wheelbarrow is for. Hey, it didn't say no tactical wheelbarrows in the rules......
OK so you don't actually hunt with a fully deployed tripod as you said you did when defending the video. Got it.
Your whole conversation is on mute when you quote "Sniper". Not into the drama but here you are participating in it with both feet. Yes, I am The HMFIC Of this shit because it's my business I started it. It's social media and one that existed before you did in this space.
These guys shoot matches too, try paying attention who is actually conversing here. Match shooters are, and the contrived BS makes you look stupid not us, we are actually laughing at the dumb shit.
You guys have become experts of political spin to twist the stories to make yourselves look better. Not working
You won't see me next time, I pick and choose what matches I shoot and you''re not on my list
These guys shoot matches too, try paying attention who is actually conversing here. Match shooters are, and the contrived BS makes you look stupid not us, we are actually laughing at the dumb shit.
You guys have become experts of political spin to twist the stories to make yourselves look better. Not working
You won't see me next time, I pick and choose what matches I shoot and you''re not on my list
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We aren't saying he broke any rules. We are saying your rules suck and need to be revised....
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