The Spall Liner

[jwsnydes]

Hey friends, this is a question for those of you that have experience with hard armor.

I'm looking at picking up a set of level III steel/titanium plates soon. These have been debated back and forth with pros and cons over ceramic, but that isn't what I'm looking to get into here.

I need something to control spall (the splashing of lead and copper that shoots outward when a bullet hits the front of a steel plate). I've seen zero aftermarket options to purchase, but a few people had mentioned that I could linex the surface of the plate (there are no linex dealers for 150 miles) or sew a bag out of layers of bulk Kevlar.

Am I missing a better option? Or is it very easy to sew and cut kevlar?

 

[Muttt]

Re: The Spall Liner

The plates (ceramic) we wore in combat were placed into a kevlar pocket. So, spall/splatter/whatever wasn't really an issue. You are going to have to put these things into some kind of carrier to wear them. If whatever carrier you use is made from kevlar, it should solve your problem for you. Although a centerfire rifle bullet will penetrate a layers of kevlar, once it gets through the kevlar and strikes the plate, the bullet comes apart into shrapnel. By then the velocity is so deminished, the kevlar around the plate catches all the pieces of the shrapnel.

It is fairly easy to sew and/or cut kevlar. It's the pulling/breaking strength of the fibers that stop the bullet. But, the fibers are easy to move sideways and allow a sharp item like a needle or icepick to slide through. It doesn't break the fibers .... it only moves them out of the way. They cut fairly easy, also because you are not stretching or breaking the fibers by pulling them (which is where kevlar gets it strength). That's why cops put the thin metal trauma plates into the pockets of thier vests .... because the vest doesn't do much to stop a knife or ice pick.

 

[Triad]

Re: The Spall Liner

We use to carry some Level III steel plates that were stitched into a Kevlar carrier to reduce threat of spall. Issue was that the bulk of the kevlar kept the plate from fitting into a carrier of the corresponding size. Buyers were finding that they had to go up a size in carrier to make the plates fit. Also, many of the steel plates in the 5mm zone were failing to stop some of the threats that they should have been stopping. Some of the metal plates are "in conjunction" plates which require that you wear IIIa armor behind it as well.

Im not aware of any carriers that have the kevlar composition to count as spall protection (front or rear). There are carriers that have kevlar, but thats and angle taken to increase strength and reduce weight, nothing to do with ballistic protection.

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: The Spall Liner

Thanks for the information guys. Any thoughts on an amount of layers that should suffice as a covering? I've heard 3 to 5 layers. Kevlar comes in different weave counts and thicknesses.

 

[scharfschutze762]

Re: The Spall Liner

You can do the linex yourself..they sell it at autoparts stores spray or roll on. But I have no opinion on its effectiveness.

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: The Spall Liner

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharfshutze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can do the linex yourself..they sell it at autoparts stores spray or roll on. But I have no opinion on its effectiveness. </div></div>

I would need this stuff --> Paxcon 2100. I can't see it being sold at the autoparts stores anywhere.

Paxcon 2100

 

[Muttt]

Re: The Spall Liner

I just watched an episode of myth busters. They used bed lining to coat a wall and then set off some C-4 ..... it held ... LOL.

Not too sure about catching bullet spray.

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: The Spall Liner

Actually, this might work too.

Kevlar Tape

If I taped a couple of layers to the front of the plate would that control the spall? I would think it should act the same as if I stitched a kevlar bag, but this might be easier.

It says it isn't suitable for bulletproofing, but that isn't exactly what I'm looking to do. More fragment control.

 

[lw8]

Re: The Spall Liner

I wouldn't bet my life on a steel plate...

Take a steel plate and drop it in a flat rate box (the thin one) from the post office and whack it with a couple of 7.62 rounds. Look at the number of frag holes in the box...that is going into your neck, face, and arms.

Good luck with that.

 

[daybreak1199]

Re: The Spall Liner

I have used plate backers before, this helps prevent fragments of the ceramic plate from penetrating the body. I suppose one could place a plate backer on the front side of a metal plate to act as a spall liner. Or sandwich the metal plate between two soft plate backers. There are so many variables here that trying to come up with a sure fire way of preventing spall or richochet is more or less guess work and theory than anything else.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=10...kers&_rdc=1

V/R
Jason

 

[Triad]

Re: The Spall Liner

I think it would be easier to buy a plate that does not have spalling issues.

 

[Muttt]

Re: The Spall Liner

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it would be easier to buy a plate that does not have spalling issues. </div></div>


+1 ..... that would be my first thought when buying body armor

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: The Spall Liner

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it would be easier to buy a plate that does not have spalling issues. </div></div>


+1 ..... that would be my first thought when buying body armor </div></div>

I really like the (few) level III plates that can stop M855, but they are all steel. They have really have great multi-hit capability over even IV plates. They are more rugged, no need to xray them, thinner by far, and around the same weight as ceramic. And half of the cost.

If I could find a rugged, reasonably priced, sub 8lb, ceramic IV plate that I didn't have to xray every year, I would consider that.

If I could control spall, then it is an ideal plate for me.

 

[lw8]

Re: The Spall Liner

Steel often fails on m193....super common round.

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: The Spall Liner

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lw8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steel often fails on m193....super common round. </div></div>

Great point. I forgot to include that. The GAMMA Plus III+ steel combo plate stops it (i've seen independent testing) and everything else short of 3006 AP or a military only black tip, which I am not worried about as primary threats.

It is a $200 plate, and around 5.2lbs. Hard to beat (minus spalling issues).

 

[daybreak1199]

Re: The Spall Liner

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JW Snydes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lw8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steel often fails on m193....super common round. </div></div>

Great point. I forgot to include that. The GAMMA Plus III+ steel combo plate stops it (i've seen independent testing) and everything else short of 3006 AP or a military only black tip, which I am not worried about as primary threats.

It is a $200 plate, and around 5.2lbs. Hard to beat (minus spalling issues). </div></div>

Would you mind posting the info about this plate, and the site, if you don't mind.

V/R
Jason

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: The Spall Liner

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: daybreak1199</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JW Snydes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lw8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steel often fails on m193....super common round. </div></div>

Great point. I forgot to include that. The GAMMA Plus III+ steel combo plate stops it (i've seen independent testing) and everything else short of 3006 AP or a military only black tip, which I am not worried about as primary threats.

It is a $200 plate, and around 5.2lbs. Hard to beat (minus spalling issues). </div></div>

Would you mind posting the info about this plate, and the site, if you don't mind.

V/R
Jason </div></div>

This is all I could find online for you, besides you reading my memories.

Post #24

Plate tests

 

[DeliveryBoy]

Re: The Spall Liner

Long time Lurker, this is the first time I have something of substance to contribute. Congrats, this got my first.

I too have been looking to acquire plates and have researched the pros and cons of almost all the options. In the end, no plate is perfect each and every one has its strengths and weakness. “What will you be using it for” is the only question that matters. There are some great conversations in various forums to guide you with your reasonings/needs so I won’t dive into those.

First- Level III Ti/Steel- Does not contain an oz. of Ti. It is branding and Ti in name only. It is a lighter weight alloy of steel and has had difficulties stopping certain rounds/multi hits. I have the link to such information if desired.

Spalling, that is the discussion here- It is a serious issue with most plates and the major drawback with steel (along with weight). That is very unfortunate about the line-x being so far away. It should be the ticket to solving the spalling- not to mention pleasing to the eye and protection from the elements forever. I will be testing the spalling issues and solutions soon, once I can get out to desert.

I do not want to soil a steel body armor plate just see the effects of bullet splatter. So for testing purposes I am repurposing 3 steel target plates, AR500 3/8”. One plate will be the control and without any protection. The second plate will be Line-x (paxcon). The third plate will be the DIY Kevlar sleeve fashioned out of a previously loved Level II vest. This also test the number of Kevlar layers necessary because I cannot find many credible sources/tests. General consensus is +/-5

Unfortunately, I won’t be able to make it out to the desert to test until June/July. I will gladly post my results upon completion.

 

[daybreak1199]

Re: The Spall Liner

Sounds like a good test, what will you be using to catch or indicate spalling coming off the target plate, and have you chosen a round for the test yet? Are you testing in the ocotillo area?

 

[DeliveryBoy]

Re: The Spall Liner

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JW Snydes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: daybreak1199</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JW Snydes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lw8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steel often fails on m193....super common round. </div></div>

Great point. I forgot to include that. The GAMMA Plus III+ steel combo plate stops it (i've seen independent testing) and everything else short of 3006 AP or a military only black tip, which I am not worried about as primary threats.

It is a $200 plate, and around 5.2lbs. Hard to beat (minus spalling issues). </div></div>

Would you mind posting the info about this plate, and the site, if you don't mind.

V/R
Jason </div></div>

This is all I could find online for you, besides you reading my memories.

Post #24

Plate tests </div></div>

That entire thread by Doc is very useful and succinct. Love it.
Doc mentioned the 4.5mm Ceramic layer came to him (from dealer to test) already with chips and cracks. Not good on the durability front?
And with the m193 defeating the steel plate. I've seen (youtube) of a steel plate taking multiple m193 on top of eachother. I believe the issue lay with the lighter (55gr) bullets at hot velocities (in excess of 3k). After testing for spall guards, a group of us will be testing (talk is cheap, I know, but it will be done) a steel plate with setup like the one I will be running. Steel plate with the spall guard chosen and kevlar backing(vest) vs a long list of rifle rounds. It will be duly documented and posted. ETA summer.

 

[DeliveryBoy]

Re: The Spall Liner

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: daybreak1199</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds like a good test, what will you be using to catch or indicate spalling coming off the target plate, and have you chosen a round for the test yet? Are you testing in the ocotillo area?
</div></div>

-Planning on placing the plates in a cardboard box as a fragment indicator. Simple 360 test. I was considering catching/determining the wounding capabilities, tbd. (possibly just on the control). The holes, or hopefully lack there of, in the box for the spall guard tests should be answer enough.

-Ammo, Might test pistol but will probably stay with rifle only. Most likely consist of 223 PMC bronze (b/c thats what was bought in bulk) out of 16" barrel. With x39/x54r surplus possibly joining the fray. Number of calibers might change before and also during as the spall guards take their respective beatings. Increase number of calibers and increase the number of tests targets. We'll see.

-I've ventured down yonder before to shoot- kinda a trek for me. These days its a little more convenient for Victorville area.

-Testing perimeters may change as design and $ determine.
-Might coat multiple plates in LineX (can swap Kevlar Pockets as they get torn up)
-Suggestions are always welcome.

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: The Spall Liner

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeliveryBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: daybreak1199</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds like a good test, what will you be using to catch or indicate spalling coming off the target plate, and have you chosen a round for the test yet? Are you testing in the ocotillo area?
</div></div>

-Planning on placing the plates in a cardboard box as a fragment indicator. Simple 360 test. I was considering catching/determining the wounding capabilities, tbd. (possibly just on the control). The holes, or hopefully lack there of, in the box for the spall guard tests should be answer enough.

-Ammo, Might test pistol but will probably stay with rifle only. Most likely consist of 223 PMC bronze (b/c thats what was bought in bulk) out of 16" barrel. With x39/x54r surplus possibly joining the fray. Number of calibers might change before and also during as the spall guards take their respective beatings. Increase number of calibers and increase the number of tests targets. We'll see.

-I've ventured down yonder before to shoot- kinda a trek for me. These days its a little more convenient for Victorville area.

-Testing perimeters may change as design and $ determine.
-Might coat multiple plates in LineX (can swap Kevlar Pockets as they get torn up)
-Suggestions are always welcome. </div></div>


I am very interested in seeing your results. Thanks for trying to help and being willing to share your results!

 

[DeliveryBoy]

Re: The Spall Liner

Looks like some one has done a little testing over on AR15... de-spalling steel plates Long read- Lots of BS- quality test after 10pgs of reading
Hurrah- someone actually tested something not just theorized about it. Good test. Props to "bcauz3y"

...I'll spare you the agonizing read... Summary...
1)5 layers of kevlar cut to size of plate plus excess overhang
2)Affix to plate via quality epoxy between each layer and compression. Overhang around plate for added strength and complete coverage.
3)Seal from elements with roll/spray on truck bed liner- and aesthetics!

I still want to see Line-x Paxcon at work.
...and my own tests will proceed- except succinct and to the point. (like this post)

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: The Spall Liner

DB thanks for the update. I'm going to look this over!

 

[frankythefly]

Re: The Spall Liner

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JW Snydes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey friends, this is a question for those of you that have experience with hard armor.

I'm looking at picking up a set of level III steel/titanium plates soon. These have been debated back and forth with pros and cons over ceramic, but that isn't what I'm looking to get into here.

I need something to control spall (the splashing of lead and copper that shoots outward when a bullet hits the front of a steel plate). I've seen zero aftermarket options to purchase, but a few people had mentioned that I could linex the surface of the plate (there are no linex dealers for 150 miles) or sew a bag out of layers of bulk Kevlar.

Am I missing a better option? Or is it very easy to sew and cut kevlar? </div></div>
How big is your plate? I have an extra spall cover that would fit, pm the dimensions.

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: The Spall Liner

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JW Snydes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey friends, this is a question for those of you that have experience with hard armor.

I'm looking at picking up a set of level III steel/titanium plates soon. These have been debated back and forth with pros and cons over ceramic, but that isn't what I'm looking to get into here.

I need something to control spall (the splashing of lead and copper that shoots outward when a bullet hits the front of a steel plate). I've seen zero aftermarket options to purchase, but a few people had mentioned that I could linex the surface of the plate (there are no linex dealers for 150 miles) or sew a bag out of layers of bulk Kevlar.

Am I missing a better option? Or is it very easy to sew and cut kevlar? </div></div>
How big is your plate? I have an extra spall cover that would fit, pm the dimensions. </div></div>


10x12

 

[mark5pt56]

Re: The Spall Liner

The older Second Chance steel plate meant for rounds such as 12 slug, .30 carbine, etc. were wrapped in kevlar. At the top, they had a "flap" of extra kevlar, my guess was for extra spall protection to protect the neck/under jaw. I think it was called the K30

These were approx 5x8, designed for mid level rounds, blunt trauma, stab protection. I'm sure you can get a cover made. Try Vel-Tye, they can possible do this for you if given plate dimensions.

 

[atomic41]

Raising this from the dead to see if there was ever a test done. Does anyone know how to coat a steel plate to reduce or prevent splatter? If you know of a successful method, please share.

 

[Texasflyer]

Raising this from the dead to see if there was ever a test done. Does anyone know how to coat a steel plate to reduce or prevent splatter? If you know of a successful method, please share.

Check out buffman range on youtube. Dude does some of the best tests on plates ive seen. He also does tests on the anti spaul coatings. Super interesting channel.

 

[atomic41]

Thanks I will check it out. I'm hoping to see tests done on DIY coatings.

 

[...]

you can buy spall lining bags if you want a ready made options

Spall Armor | Spall Liner | Blockers of Spall for 10x12 AR500 Steel Plates

Spall Armor Spall Liner Blockers of Spall for 10x12 AR500 Steel Plates

www.bodyarmormegastore.com

or are you looking for a lining to use on targets?

 

[pmclaine]

Necro thread but I have the answer......

A Serape.



This one specifically....

Clint Eastwood Poncho cowboy Serape replica handmade of Alpaca wool Un

This is a brand new unisex poncho, made of alpaca wool yarn. It is very light, extremely soft, warm, very soft to touch and won't itch. One Size (approx.): 58" x 35.5" / 147 cm W x 90 cm H incl. fringe Material: Alpaca Wool blend Colour/pattern could vary slightly from the photo. Weight of each...

ecualama.com

 

[Tchitcherine]

Post #11 FTW. Solve the spall problem by using superior material.

 

[Texasflyer]

Necro thread but I have the answer......

A Serape.



This one specifically....

View attachment 7607217

Clint Eastwood Poncho cowboy Serape replica handmade of Alpaca wool Un

This is a brand new unisex poncho, made of alpaca wool yarn. It is very light, extremely soft, warm, very soft to touch and won't itch. One Size (approx.): 58" x 35.5" / 147 cm W x 90 cm H incl. fringe Material: Alpaca Wool blend Colour/pattern could vary slightly from the photo. Weight of each...

ecualama.com

I wonder how clint eastwood feels about being likened with a unisex poncho?

 

[pmclaine]

I wonder how clint eastwood feels about being likened with a unisex poncho?

Clint has so much X/Y chromosome he turns transgenders male.

 

[atomic41]

you can buy spall lining bags if you want a ready made options

Spall Armor | Spall Liner | Blockers of Spall for 10x12 AR500 Steel Plates

Spall Armor Spall Liner Blockers of Spall for 10x12 AR500 Steel Plates

www.bodyarmormegastore.com

or are you looking for a lining to use on targets?

For armor, wondering about making a non-coated Ar500 plate safer to use. Thanks for the link, I didn't know that existed it looks interesting.

 

[Jcmar15]

Just buy quality ceramic plates. Steel plates are not worth it.

There is a reasons that people that wear hard armor plates for a living use ceramic and not steel.

 

[...]

Just buy quality ceramic plates. Steel plates are not worth it.

There is a reasons that people that wear hard armor plates for a living use ceramic and not steel.

when Uncle Sugar is footing the bill, you can run the best.

when Uncle Splenda is footing the bill, you run what you can.

between steel or nothing at all, ide run steel.

 

[Jcmar15]

I’d run nothing at all and save my money for good plates. You’ll be faster and more mobile without them anyways.

 

[...]

well it sounds like he already has the plates soooooo

 

[atomic41]

well it sounds like he already has the plates soooooo

Yeah plate is in hand, someone is considering using it for duty but would like to find a solution to make it safer. I'll talk to them about those spall liner bags.

 

[softcock]

 

[strikeeagle1]

^^^Thanks for the link. I found it an informative and fair discussion of the issues at hand with chest armor.
Thanks again.

 

[Sureshot732]

Hey gang I just saw this thread and was so engaged I had to sign up. I too have gone down the steel vs ceramics road quite a few times. First I got steel with no fraglock coating bc I didn't know any better. Then I added the spall bags but ultimately wasn't confident with them. I finally replaced my steel plates with level IV ceramics, which honestly weren't that much more than multi-curve steel with frag lock (RMA Defense #1155).

Anyways, I am still running my steel side plates and I have been looking for spall sleeves in 6x8. Has anyone seen them anywhere? I found these but they don't appear to be made out of kevlar and they're dumb expensive. For one 6x8 spall sleeve, they want $110. I could just buy the side ceramic plates for that much. Honestly, that;'s probably what I'll ultimately end up doing but was looking for a cheaper solution in the meantime.

Guardian GSS Spall Sleeve | HighCom Armor

Used for advanced protection with plates, the Guardian™ Rifle Insert Spall Sleeve reduces spall fragments from ballistic impact.

www.highcomarmor.com

Thanks for all the info everyone. Very helpful. Appreciate everyone's input. Looking forward to lurking around the threads some more.