The whole box at 100 yards

[justin amateur]

Just a thought...what do y'all think would happen,
if 5 shot groups went the way of the dodo,
and if ya' were going to show off how well ye'r rifle can do at 100 yards,
was accomplished by sending all 50 shots at a single aimpoint.
I have a feeling it'd pretty much end claims of "sub-moa all day long".

Even at 50 yards it'd be damn difficult to accomplish.

 

[45cal4life]

Think I can summarize that answer; Oh, the wind was crazy that day

 

[ma smith]

It's alot easier to be lucky for 2 minutes of wind calls than 20 minutes

 

[Ranchhand]

Please do it OP, and share your results.

 

[justin amateur]

Me? Why me?

Agreed, it was my idea, but why should I be the first?

It was just a thought...but ya' know what?

I have no fear of failure. 50 at 100 it is.
Any rimfire caliber, any setup including one piece rests, 100 yards.

Include a pic of the setup, the view downrange and the results with a ruler along side.

I've already done this at 200 yards, so 100 yards ought to be easy. Not.

 

[Moe Ron]

Wait. Shirley you don’t mean a whole box in one day.
That’s just crazy talk

 

[justin amateur]

Not with rimfire, H.
I think the only way to achieve sub moa for 50 shots
will be from a custom rig off a high end rest with a superb box of 22lr.


Moe...stop calling me Shirley.

I still watch that movie..loved Bob Stack and the Hairy Krishna's.


This could be interesting.... I wonder how many of us would be willing to post their results,
no matter how embarrassing the spread at 100 yards.

Besides me, that is.
We already know I'm unafraid to push the envelope.


If we make this the new requirement as proof of accuracy,
that means the next time ya' see a 5 shot rimfire group posted,
with that claim of sub-moa all day long,
ye'r gonna have to ask: what happened to the other 45 shots?

Instigator? Who? Me?

 

[Hoser]

How about a 60 round group under 1 MOA.

CTC on this group was just over 1 cm which equals about .8 inches MOA

 

[lash]

How about a 60 round group under 1 MOA.

CTC on this group was just over 1 cm which equals about .8 inches MOA

Impressive!

 

[justin amateur]

Daaaaayyyyyuuuuum Hoser!

Pics of the rifle, setup and range if you will.

I need the rifle porn.

 

[lash]

Here's a box shot at the same aim point in about 5 minutes but with 4 or 5 tenths of elevation and windage dialed every 10rds.
View attachment 7443358

Very nice! But what would the result be if all five groups were placed over the same aimpoint?

 

[melglass]

For some reason even with as much as I like to shoot this would not be fun for me at all. And it has nothing to do with the final results.

 

[justin amateur]

Not fun? Mel...tell me it ain't so!

I was cackling like a lunatic this morning,
watching Fed 36 gr cphp and SK Magazine spread all over the backer.
Tickled my funny bone each time I squeezed.
Sub-moa all day long...not happening, no how, no way.
It was ridiculous.

How about some dot targets at 100 yards.
Two 25 shot targets shot in succession.
Would that be fun?

 

[melglass]

Not fun? Mel...tell me it ain't so!

I was cackling like a lunatic this morning,
watching Fed 36 gr cphp and SK Magazine spread all over the backer.
Tickled my funny bone each time I squeezed.
Sub-moa all day long...not happening, no how, no way.
It was ridiculous.

How about some dot targets at 100 yards.
Two 25 shot targets shot in succession.
Would that be fun?

For me that would be. Or the same 50 shot offhand. For me it’s not about the misses must the hits. Positive feedback instead of negative. I have had lots of fun burning up the worst bulk I could find offhand.

 

[justin amateur]

Now ye'r just rubbing it in Mel.
I just might be the least talented offhand shooter you ever met.
I have to be braced or supported to make a shot.
Offhand, my results make my friends and family laugh.

 

[justin amateur]

Those of us who think serious fun is time at the range.
If all I did was hunt, my ammo consumption would be way less.
My typical Saturday morning is 150 to 250 rimfire rounds sent.
Then another 50 to 100 centerfire either rifle or pistol.

Sadly, I need the practice.

 

[BillOH]

Vudoo, bench, bipod, rear bag, SK Biathlon, 100 yards. There was a fly landing all over my target that made me think my shots were hitting way over there. It was tough not taking a shot at him. Wind was calm to start then I got a little left to right. 50 yard zero, I held on the top middle sighter and that's where they dropped in.

 

[melglass]

Now ye'r just rubbing it in Mel.
I just might be the least talented offhand shooter you ever met.
I have to be braced or supported to make a shot.
Offhand, my results make my friends and family laugh.

Still rounds down range so it’s all good.

 

[justin amateur]

Alrighty now....lets set the bar extremely low for starters.

Federal 36 gr cphp 22lr rated 1260 fps

CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod, Mueller 8-32X 44 target reticle

And the results

No "all day long" sub-moa going on there.
To be expected from cheap bulk 22lr.
My favorite small game cartridge for the North Florida underbrush.
No 100 yard shots where I chase squirrels and rabbits.
Majority of shots are taken at 15 to 20 yards, fine for this ammo.

 

[justin amateur]

Ummmmm....I spoke too soon. Apparently the bar needs to drop a couple of notches.

SK Magazine 40 grain 22lr rated 1073 fps
Goober lube in a can, bring paper towels to degrease y'er fingers.

Excess bullet material crimped down past the case mouth onto the brass,
irregular seating, asymmetric drive bands...yep, it's bulk ammo.
Used a CCI box to hold 50 to keep track and keep my fingers clean.

CZ 455 Varmint Lilja, Sinclair bipod

Look at the vertical spread...some serious mv differences in those cartridges.

 

[justin amateur]

Hey! Look at that! The hi-v 22lr did better than the standard velocity!
How can that be? Is it possible that the supersonic transition is much less important than cartridge quality?
Certainly looks like it.

 

[justin amateur]

CCI 30 grain V-Max 22wmr rated 2200 fps

CZ 455 Feddersen Fuglie barrel block, set trigger, Mueller 8-32x 44 target reticle
That is 18 lbs of inertia and stability...makes testing ammo very simple.
No skill required.

Results at 100 yards holding a single aimpoint for 50 shots
1.7 inches of vertical, 2 inches of horizontal...definitely not sub-moa.

Visual inspection showed variations in seating depth, overall cartridge length
and several bullets seated at an angle/visibly tilted relative to the case mouth.
Rolling on a flat surface showed tip wobble. Better results than the cheap bulk 22lr,
but still no sub-moa "all day long" going on.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

So pretty much going back to how we all got started?

 

[justin amateur]

Doc...now that's funny.

Nope, not about how we started, now we have better rifles and hopefully better skills.
This thread is a reminder that a few 5 shot groups and the phrase "all day long"
are substantially less than the truth.

I figure start with examples of the cheap stuff, then see if those truly skilled folks
will be motivated enough to show just how good rimfire can be.

Note: I do not include myself in those ranks. Just an amateur here.
My talent is instigation....I'm very good at annoying folks into proving me wrong.

 

[justin amateur]

CCI Maxi-Mag 40 grain hollow point rated 1875 fps

CZ 455 Feddersen Fuglie

Results 3.6 inches of vertical, 1.7 inches of horizontal

Better than Crackerjacks...three surprises in that box.

Irregular seating depths, tilted seating, varying cartridge dimensions,
typical CCI production.

There's a start, plenty of room for improvement.
Let's see what y'all can do to improve on those results.

 

[lash]

Ha ha, I see what you're saying. Took me a second to think about it. Ya, it would probably be just under an inch. Maybe I'll spend $10 trying it this winter.

Lol, I figured that you’d see what I was saying. Still all in all nice shooting.

 

[Krob95]

Once I get my hands on another brick of center x I’ll give this a go with my vudoo, indoors and at 50 and 100yds for shits and giggles as I love burning powder lol

 

[justin amateur]

Indoors at 100 yards?
That I want to see.

Imagine, no worrying about timing the squeeze
or tracking wind flags with one eye and the crosshair with the other.

 

[Krob95]

Indoors at 100 yards?
That I want to see.

Imagine, no worrying about timing the squeeze
or tracking wind flags with one eye and the crosshair with the other.

Depending on when MHSA gets some center x in I will be more than happy to post up some groups for the masses lol

 

[Islander]

Went to the range this morning before the wind got to bad. I only have a couple of boxes left of what this rifle likes so I did the “whole box” test with some other stuff I had in the cabinet. The GM Match wasn’t horrible, with just two flyers. Once I get some more of the good stuff, I’ll try that.

 

[Islander]

Forgot my bipod, so I used this set up.

 

[Krob95]

Bought two bricks of midas because, you know, it’s just money lol so I will post center x at 100 yds and midas plus at 100yds unsuppressed with my vudoo. Will be shooting off a heavy fill tab gear str8laced bag and a MDT Ckye pod. Will post pics here in a couple hours when I’m done

 

[Islander]

Bought two bricks of midas because, you know, it’s just money lol so I will post center x at 100 yds and midas plus at 100yds unsuppressed with my vudoo. Will be shooting off a heavy fill tab gear str8laced bag and a MDT Ckye pod. Will post pics here in a couple hours when I’m done

Looking forward to seeing those groups. Vudoo+Center X+Midas Plus= One ragged hole!

 

[Krob95]

So disclaimer on the below pictures. I had pulled a couple shots high on both the center x and midas plus groups due to breaking shots with someone shooting next to me. My point of aim was also destroyed due to shooting it out so if I do another 50 rd group I am going to dial a false zero so I have a consistent POA.

I only counted the outer most shots to get a good idea of overall spread. If you guys think I should count more please let me know and I will. With out further ado, here are the groups. (I ran 50rds midas plus prior to the 50rd group to let the barrel acclimate to the change in ammo if needed)

Rifle specs are as follows:
Vudoo V22 Gen 1.2 w/ 18” Proof Carbon fiber barrel
TriggerTech Diamond 2 stage
Accuracy International AIAX chassis
Zero Compromise 5-27x MPCT2 in a Spuhr 6002 mount
MDT Ckye Pod
OG Str8Laced bag with heavy fill
Center x
Midas plus

(Black stickers are 1” for reference)

 

[rick137]

@justin amateur

So far your conjecture is spot-on.

I would like to see what someone could do with a Vudoo or RimX and premium ammunition, first with a high end one-piece mechanical rest and then with the same rest and a tuner. Of course with wind not a factor.

Rick

 

[lash]

@justin amateur

So far your conjecture is spot-on.

I would like to see what someone could do with a Vudoo or RimX and premium ammunition, first with a high end one-piece mechanical rest and then with the same rest and a tuner. Of course with wind not a factor.

Rick

I’m sure that you realize that he didn’t just make this challenge out of the blue. With all of the testing that he himself has done, he already knew what the outcome would be. This thread and the various people trying it is just a good way for those that might doubt a single shooter’s results will get to see the harsh reality for themselves.

 

[Krob95]

I’m going to retry this on Friday probably to see if offsetting the point of aim and point of impact makes a difference that way I don’t have to guess where to hold.

 

[ma smith]

Thanks to OP and everyone participating in this thread
it is very interesting and self effacing

 

[justin amateur]

K, offsetting the aimpoint is how I do all these large number groups.
Currently my scope is set for a 200 yard zero.
At 100 yards the poi is 14 to 21 inches above poa.
That way I don't mess with the turret settings, only the focus/parallax.

Works for benchrest rigs also.
At 100 yards poi will be 7 to 9 inches below poa using a 50 yard zero.
No need to adjust the vertical, just the focus.

 

[justin amateur]

Lash, any half decent test protocol requires multiple confirmations.
Not just one set of data provided by a single recorder.
I figure with the targets already posted in jbell's 6x5 thread
there might be a few shooters who'd find this challenge worthwhile to attempt.
That would provide confirmation of, or disprove, my original premise.

 

[Islander]

I’m going to retry this on Friday probably to see if offsetting the point of aim and point of impact makes a difference that way I don’t have to guess where to hold.

That’s what I did after seeing a few of the previous targets. It’s hard to hold center of a ragged hole, lol. I clicked about 2 MOA down from my 100yd. setting.

 

[lash]

Lash, any half decent test protocol requres multiple confirmations.
Not just one set of data provided by a single recorder.
I figure with the targets already posted in jbell's 6x5 thread
there might be a few shooters who'd find this challenge worthwhile to attempt.
That would provide confirmation of, or disprove, my original premise.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. This is a good thread for that reason.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

Fantastic thread. Between this, the 200 yrd 50 shots and the 6x5 threads, they will providE very useful data.
I wonder if there is some sort of big data/machine learning that can be applied to the data found here to answer questions like:
which ammo provides best bang for the $ out of rifle x?
which barrel length in the same rifle shoot more variety of ammo with better precision?

These standardized shooting challenges may make this possible in the future.
I hope that the Eley and Lapua test centers are keeping track and analyzing this kind of data.
I will follow along and post in the future As I learn more about my rifle and become a better shooter.

Thank you and happy shooting.

 

[Hi-Wall]

What I really take away from the group testing with 10 or more shots fired on a single target is how the magnificent, tiny little one hole groups start to disappear. I shoot 10 and 20 round groups with my .22's and my .30 caliber cast bullet ammo. Perhaps I just can't shoot worth a hoot, but 10 and 20 shot groups are seldom MOA at 100 or sub MOA at 50. Often nine out of ten or eighteen out of 20 just make me happy, but there is often a round or two that spoils the soup.

 

[rick137]

I should have been more specific. So far nobody using a bipod and rear bag, and probably without a tuner, has been able to shoot a 50 shot group with CTC precision of 1.00 MOA or less. Except for Hoser. From his target I infer the shooting was indoors but we do not know anything about the support and barrel tuner. If he did use bipod-rear bag support and no tuner then there is a single counterexample. That would be a very impressive counterexample. Even with a mechanical support and tuner it is impressive.

An equivalent, or perhaps slightly harder, challenge would be 50 disks/dots with a 1.00 MOA diameter. One shot per dot with center of bullet hole on the boundary or inside the dot.

 

[justin amateur]

I hope that the Eley and Lapua test centers are keeping track and analyzing this kind of data.

They don't need to.
They already understand what is needed to produce cartridges capable of consistent accuracy.
The problem is the current technology, economics and the methods of manufacture won't allow it.
They have to show a profit and in order to manufacture "perfect" cartridges, the cost would be similar
to that of match grade centerfire Lapua...think about that expense.

 

[JG26_Irish]

I was talking to a friend from OH who just won the WV state Unlimited BR championship in ARA about the Lapua test center in OH and what was a good group to expect when testing ammo with a custom unlimited BR rifle? They test in a tube at 50y and 100y so wind is not a factor and the rifle is firmly clamped into the jig and not allowed to free recoil like they do in competition. He said that a custom BR match rifle with tuner and a good lot of ammo CX or Midas is only capable of 10-12mm edge to edge for 10sh groups at 50y. That is less than 1/2 in for only 10 shots. It works out to 1/2 MOA more or less. However, if 50 shots were fired it is absolutely going to be larger. I have seen what those rifles can do in matches and they outshoot every 22lr that I have ever owned. These custom unlimited rifles will often place three shots into one hole but ammo and wind has become their two biggest variables for those rifles.

By comparison my little Remington has had some success shooting ARA benchrest matches this year in the Factory stock rifle class which requires a two piece rest and no tuners allowed. That little rifle struggles to consistently keep all 25 shots inside the rather generous 100 ring of the ARA factory tgt. Attached is a perfect 2500 tgt that I shot at Nationals this year. I shot four such perfect tgts over the two day event and only dropped 6 shots out of 200 total outside of the 100ring and four of those were on the last tgt in very tricky winds. All were fired outdoors and the attached example was fired at the end of a long first day in some fairly steady right to left wind. At the end of day one I had fired 125 shots on record bulls recording three perfect scores out of five cards and dropping only two shots of 125 out of the 100 ring and both were out only fractions of a mm. That is still more than 1.15 MOA for the total. The tgt is scored worst edge and the 100 ring measures about 0.83 inches edge to edge. Looking at the tgt in the pic the bulls 3, 18 and 21 had it been shot as a group the 25 shots measure approx. 0.70 inches edge to edge (about 18mm) or 0.477 inch ctc or about 0.91 moa and that is only 25 shots at 50y. It is impossible to do this precisely but it gives a real world outdoor example of what is possible. Ammo & wind is also my #1 variables. That and keeping my scope clamped down tight, lol.

A couple of final comments. In BR matches we do not hold the same POA because winds vary during the match and we also have the benefit of shooting sighters anytime we choose which again is to help negate the impact of the wind. Both these items go away in an indoor environment protected from the wind. Therefore, I think it is still a reasonable comparison, albeit only 25 shots per tgt.

Irish

 

[Hoser]

Pics of the rifle, setup and range if you will.

The pic was taken at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs.

Pretty much a standard 40X Elrod repeater in an AI stock with a S&B 5-25 on top. The ammo is a magic lot of old Eley Blue. They dont make it anymore. It was graded below Match and TenX but above Edge. It shot better than any other lot I have tried in that rifle. I bought 3 cases of it from Cathy at Good Shooting. I should have bought 3 pallets.

I later switched to a S&B 12-50 as the 1/8 MOA clicks enabled me to center up the group a bit better. MIL clicks were just a touch too coarse. I would go from one side of the X-ring to the other in one click.

Being electronic targets there are no scoring rings, it is just a black blob of rubber to aim at. It took a while, but I figured out how to hold center of mass and get decent scores.

I have shot several 600s with my 40Xs and Vudoos. But the picture above was my first.

 

[justin amateur]

Those one dot-one shot targets are my personal favorite for working on my wind skills, Irish.
Instant feedback on when I foul up on a call. By the end of a 25 shot target,
I can start putting together a run of decent hits. But those first 5 to 10 shots I'm all over.

Hoser, thanks for the follow up and explanation.
Never been to an Olympic facility or used the electronic target system.

I've spent 3 years sending groups of 50 at 200 yards.
My biggest problem is not wind, but cartridge quality.
I've tried all the different brands and types of rimfire available in 22lr, 22wmr, 17hmr and 17wsm.
Looking for explanations as to the cause of odd strays led me to careful visual inspection
of each cartridge before chambering. Correlating the result of each shot to the defects seen
and found those fliers have a direct relationship to the severity of the cartridge damage.
The worst problems, with 22lr, are those that involve the drive bands, crimp and bullet seating.
Any deformity at the area just above the crimp affects the expansion of the bullet heel
and as a result messes with muzzle exit pressure release. Uneven pressure on the heel,
as it leaves the barrel, shoves the bullet off the centerline of rotation and skews the trajectory.

 

[barronian]

Here are two 50 at 100m results. the first one is with Eley Match the second one with Center-X. all the othe r holes are just me getting the barrel and me used to Center-X after using Eley Match for months. Easy to see my somewhat variable concentration
If you exclude my fliers then teh main clumps are very close to what the ES predicts at 100m.

Sig Sauer STR 200 in GRS Hybrid stock
Delta 5-50x56