The whole box at 100 yards

[rick137]

The pic was taken at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs.

Pretty much a standard 40X Elrod repeater in an AI stock with a S&B 5-25 on top. The ammo is a magic lot of old Eley Blue. They dont make it anymore. It was graded below Match and TenX but above Edge. It shot better than any other lot I have tried in that rifle. I bought 3 cases of it from Cathy at Good Shooting. I should have bought 3 pallets.

I later switched to a S&B 12-50 as the 1/8 MOA clicks enabled me to center up the group a bit better. MIL clicks were just a touch too coarse. I would go from one side of the X-ring to the other in one click.

Being electronic targets there are no scoring rings, it is just a black blob of rubber to aim at. It took a while, but I figured out how to hold center of mass and get decent scores.

I have shot several 600s with my 40Xs and Vudoos. But the picture above was my first.

@Hoser

Sir, my hat is off to your marksmanship. Did you start with a cold, clean barrel? So we do have an example of a 60 yd 50 shot group using bipod and bag support with precision greater than 1.00 MOA. The gauntlet has been thrown.

 

[ManOfMystery]

@Hoser

Sir, my hat is off to your marksmanship. Did you start with a cold, clean barrel? So we do have an example of a 60 yd 50 shot group using bipod and bag support with precision greater than 1.00 MOA. The gauntlet has been thrown.

Its a 60 shot 50 Meter group. Its the standard international prone course of fire and target. If I recall my target dimensions correctly the ten ring is ~1/2moa.

Here is a past broadcast of an international prone final.

@Hoser is a fantastic marksman, I had the privilege of meeting him when I was at the OTC testing ammo and he graciously let me borrow a rifle and some ammo to shoot one of their local matches. First time shooting a centerfire match of any kind.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

They will undoubtedly know about their own manufacturing processes, but people send their rifles of various kind and various barrel lengths for testing.
if the data can be aggregated and organized so buyers might know what ammo shoot better out of their rifle, it could be a competitive advantage and a time saver at the testing sites.
all theoretical of course, but things similar to this are happening in cancer treatment, bio-pharmaceuticals, cybersecurity, etc.
just my random thoughts on how to learn and work more efficiently.
YMMV, happy shooting.

 

[Blutroop]

CCI Maxi-Mag 40 grain hollow point rated 1875 fps

CZ 455 Feddersen Fuglie

Results 3.6 inches of vertical, 1.7 inches of horizontal

Better than Crackerjacks...three surprises in that box.

Irregular seating depths, tilted seating, varying cartridge dimensions,
typical CCI production.

There's a start, plenty of room for improvement.
Let's see what y'all can do to improve on those results.

That gun looks like it’s part of that bench! Do you move your rifle or go move the target to adjust where you hit?

 

[justin amateur]

Wize-adze.

Luckily, I don't have to shift the target.
The benches have heavy duty lockable casters,
so they can be rolled into alignment.

 

[Hoser]

@Hoser

Sir, my hat is off to your marksmanship. Did you start with a cold, clean barrel? So we do have an example of a 60 yd 50 shot group using bipod and bag support with precision greater than 1.00 MOA. The gauntlet has been thrown.

I clean my rifle after every match to keep the crud in the barrel down to a dull roar. So I normally fire 10-15 rounds to let everything, including my brain and trigger finger, settle in. As soon as things are good, you select start match on the screen and your off to the races. After 60 shots over 35-45 minutes your brain is pretty cooked from concentrating that hard.

 

[barronian]

Well, i wasn't very happy with my results yesterday, so i tried to do better today .... at least i tried !
What i did learn was that Center-X is very temperature sensitive - much more so than i would have expected and much more so than Eley Match.

The top right hand target was shot first, with ammo from the house that had a powder temp (initially ) of about 18C (65F). Avg vel 1040 f/s, ES 42.

The Top left hand target was shot about 90 mins later when the powder(and gun) temp had fallen - probably closer to the 6.8 C (44F) air temperature. The POI change is rather obvious. Avg Vel 1012 f/s, ES 44.

Strelok gives me 0.5 mil drop with this temp change - very close to what i see. Lapua Ballistics gives me 0.3 mil so this dosent quite fit my DOPE ...

What are other peoples experiences with temperature sensitivity ?? Do you leave your ammo outside to acclimatize ? Or do you try and keep it warm ?

Sig Sauer STR 200 /GRS/Rempel

And here is 50 Eley Match shot right after the 100 Center-X. Avg Vel 1076 f/s, ES 33 (or 25 if you remove the two extreme values).

 

[Mban2]

My wife regularly could accomplish this feat offhand with iron sights. But being one of the best shooters in the world makes it an unfair advantage. Myself? I would be lucky to even remember to use the same point of aim not to mention take into account any sort of environmentals

 

[rottenruger]

It's alot easier to be lucky for 2 minutes of wind calls than 20 minutes

At 100 yards?

 

[rottenruger]

Well, i wasn't very happy with my results yesterday, so i tried to do better today .... at least i tried !
What i did learn was that Center-X is very temperature sensitive - much more so than i would have expected and much more so than Eley Match.

The top right hand target was shot first, with ammo from the house that had a powder temp (initially ) of about 18C (65F). Avg vel 1040 f/s, ES 42.

The Top left hand target was shot about 90 mins later when the powder(and gun) temp had fallen - probably closer to the 6.8 C (44F) air temperature. The POI change is rather obvious. Avg Vel 1012 f/s, ES 44.

Strelok gives me 0.5 mil drop with this temp change - very close to what i see. Lapua Ballistics gives me 0.3 mil so this dosent quite fit my DOPE ...

What are other peoples experiences with temperature sensitivity ?? Do you leave your ammo outside to acclimatize ? Or do you try and keep it warm ?

Sig Sauer STR 200 /GRS/Rempel

And here is 50 Eley Match shot right after the 100 Center-X. Avg Vel 1076 f/s, ES 33 (or 25 if you remove the two extreme values).

Is that a butt rest or a battery under the stock?

 

[drglock]

Hopefully my chassis comes in the next few weeks and we stop working five 12’s so I can play along. Need a good excuse to get used to my RimX in a PDC chassis instead of my Manners T2A. Now to decide on what flavor to try. I’ve got RWS 50, 4 lots of Center X, SK Standard , SK Pistol Match Special ,SK Biathlon and some prime If anyone has a request just let me know. It’ll be 100yds at an indoor range and hopefully not too many cannons going off,
cause they do rattle the ole cage even when plugged and muffs on.

 

[justin amateur]

A request? Sure. All of them flavors.

Not all in the same day.
Spread it out, a couple boxes per trip.
Let's see just how tight you can group 'em.

 

[barronian]

Is that a butt rest or a battery under the stock?

Protektor rear rest

 

[justin amateur]

Winchester Varmint HE 34 grain jhp 22 wmr, rated 2120 fps

CZ 455 Feddersen Fuglie

Inspection before sending downrange showed one scragged cartridge.
Peeled back the copper plate and deformed the bullet.
Also found variations in seating depth and angle, irregular brass dimensions.
Great quality control at Winchester, eh?

ES 164 fps

I haven't had much luck with the 22wmr.
Poor cartridge quality prevents it from producing consistent accuracy.

 

[Krob95]

This reminds me. I have some more terrible 50rd groups for you guys!

 

[Krob95]

This time I shot the targets with a Tangent Theta 5-25 Gen2XR with the dot above the big hole being my point of aim. Rifle had approx 500rds on it since last cleaning before this. Now it has 650.

Thinking I am going to scrub the barrel and chamber really well, foul it back in with 20rds or so, then do this one more time. Adding a bonus brand of ammo to the mix as well for science.

 

[justin amateur]

Ye'r getting there K.
If you can get ye'r hands on a box of "magic" 22lr,
I think you can get it done.

Apply the half - third rule of rimfire,
at 50 yards that would be a 0.37" ctc hole for 50 shots.
Dayyyyum!

 

[Krob95]

Ye'r getting there K.
If you can get ye'r hands on a box of "magic" 22lr,
I think you can get it done.

Apply the half - third rule of rimfire,
at 50 yards that would be a 0.37" ctc hole for 50 shots.
Dayyyyum!

I really want to break 1 moa for a 50rd group at 100yds. This is quite the challenge for sure!

 

[Moe Ron]

Sorry if this is one of those repeatedly asked questions. Educate me on the manufacturing process of the rim fire cartridge. Why are rounds from the same lot number more consistent. How do you purchase them from the same lot #
Thanks

 

[ManOfMystery]

Sorry if this is one of those repeatedly asked questions. Educate me on the manufacturing process of the rim fire cartridge. Why are rounds from the same lot number more consistent. How do you purchase them from the same lot #
Thanks

Because the machines and their measurements are reset with every new run which corresponds with a lot number, and are using the same powder, lead, brass, etc. through the whole run. The lots stop when either a component runs out, the machines are stopped for any reason, or a shift has finished. So there are slight variations from lot to lot, or you can think of it from machine stoppage to machine stoppage.

To buy from the same lot you generally have to purchase from a reseller who keeps track of that and you ask for a specific lot number. I'm not 100% sure if the bargain brand plinking rounds have the lot numbers readily available but I do know that SK has them printed on the boxes at least.

 

[Moe Ron]

Thanks
Pretty much what I thought.
Any production line videos anywhere?

 

[ManOfMystery]

Thanks
Pretty much what I thought.
Any production line videos anywhere?

All I found were these two. I didn't watch them FYI so no idea to their content or accuracy.

 

[IamJoHo]

Well, i wasn't very happy with my results yesterday, so i tried to do better today .... at least i tried !
What i did learn was that Center-X is very temperature sensitive - much more so than i would have expected and much more so than Eley Match.

The top right hand target was shot first, with ammo from the house that had a powder temp (initially ) of about 18C (65F). Avg vel 1040 f/s, ES 42.

The Top left hand target was shot about 90 mins later when the powder(and gun) temp had fallen - probably closer to the 6.8 C (44F) air temperature. The POI change is rather obvious. Avg Vel 1012 f/s, ES 44.

Strelok gives me 0.5 mil drop with this temp change - very close to what i see. Lapua Ballistics gives me 0.3 mil so this dosent quite fit my DOPE ...

What are other peoples experiences with temperature sensitivity ?? Do you leave your ammo outside to acclimatize ? Or do you try and keep it warm ?

Sig Sauer STR 200 /GRS/Rempel

And here is 50 Eley Match shot right after the 100 Center-X. Avg Vel 1076 f/s, ES 33 (or 25 if you remove the two extreme values).

Where can I get this 6x5 target?

 

[hudo22]

Love it, one of the ranges here does rimfire 100 and 200m afternoon comps, 2x serials of 3sighters and 15 to score. The big difference is shooting consistently to achieve a good group vs shooting consistently to shoot a good score, body position, atmosphere, etc all blow a score out really fast. And you can easily see that just cause your shooting a great group doesn't always correlate with a great score.... hence your stock rimfire with selected ammo can outperform a many thousands of dollars setup. A real leveller. Have a look at the results here https://shooting.hexsystems.com.au/club/153

 

[BytorJr]

Impressive stuff guys. I plink at the 6” plate at 100 yards with either open sights or one of those antique 3/4” scopes. Hell it seems more like 1/2” out front. Precision shooting? Nope. Challenging? For me. Fun? Hell yes.

 

[natdscott]

My wife regularly could accomplish this feat offhand with iron sights. But being one of the best shooters in the world makes it an unfair advantage. Myself? I would be lucky to even remember to use the same point of aim not to mention take into account any sort of environmentals

Ok, I’ll bite.

She can stand there in the suit, and use that G+E Free Rifle for 50 rounds, and a tuned lot of X-ACT or R100 or Eley Red, and the nicest set of Centra irons..

...and not hit 1 MOA at 100 yards for an entire 50-count box.

Her target is just under 3/4 Minute, and NObody cleans it Offhand...much less putting an equivalent at 100 yards and more than doubling the windage calling.

You can be forgiven for having every confidence in her ability. I strongly doubt she’d say she could do what you say she could do.

 

[AManWearingAHat]

A mechanically rested 54 action in a tube with a good lot of Tenex could probably do it. As a shooter though that would be one hell of a feat.

 

[Mban2]

Ok, I’ll bite.

She can stand there in the suit, and use that G+E Free Rifle for 50 rounds, and a tuned lot of X-ACT or R100 or Eley Red, and the nicest set of Centra irons..

...and not hit 1 MOA at 100 yards for an entire 50-count box.

Her target is just under 3/4 Minute, and NObody cleans it Offhand...much less putting an equivalent at 100 yards and more than doubling the windage calling.

You can be forgiven for having every confidence in her ability. I strongly doubt she’d say she could do what you say she could do.

She is a multiple time Olympian... she cleans 50m targets offhand during 3p almost every time. She could easily double the size of the 10 ring and do it at 100

 

[natdscott]

She is a multiple time Olympian... she cleans 50m targets offhand during 3p almost every time. She could easily double the size of the 10 ring and do it at 100

She would have to be. If true, then my hat is literally off to her ability, talent, and perseverance. It’s good that she found a supportive and understanding husband because it means that you are—at times—a roommate, taking backseat to hours daily training sessions and exercise.

I am very aware of the “I can’t do it, so it’s impossible.” effect. Seems like it comes up in shooting a lot, especially among American men. I’ve been on both sides of it, and try to be cognizant of the contempt of “non-doers“ for those that are getting it done.

But I’m also more than passingly familiar with 3P, unsupported Offhand, COAT-supported Offhand, and the 10 and 50 m ISSF targets. Also at least a little experience with what $20 ammo with a Harrell tuner can do on an otherwise still pretty damned accurate Anschutz.

My experience dictates to me that given the 100 yard precision potential of current equipment and ammunition (even the best), the rifle leaves almost NO margin for a Shooter’s hold radius and for wind effects, to still keep that many consecutive rounds inside 1.047” at 100 yards, Standing.

 

[Mban2]

1.047 measured center to center of the extreme spread is 100 percent attainable. And yes, my wife can absolutely shoot as well as I am claiming. In fact, I know quite a few more women and men that can accomplish this task. But they are all olympians, or at least long time Team USA competitors.

 

[Mban2]

When I am back to the civilized part of my state, I’ll grab 100 rounds of Tenex and shoot them through the Vudoo and the Anschutz from as stable of a position/rest as I can rig together. Let’s see if Eley is up to the task

 

[acudaowner]

I love trying to shoot tiny groups but still find my self wondering why shoot 50 shots in a whole your 10 maybe if its after than it seems like waisting ammo you cant look at the whole and tell where your 10th shot placed or your first 5 its just a big hole now if you could put 50 shots in a single shot hole that would be special or is there something to be learned by shooting 50 shots in a 1.5'' hole ?

 

[rick137]

1.047 measured center to center of the extreme spread is 100 percent attainable. And yes, my wife can absolutely shoot as well as I am claiming. In fact, I know quite a few more women and men that can accomplish this task. But they are all olympians, or at least long time Team USA competitors.

@Mban2:

Just so I understand your wife's marksmanship, we are talking about precision not accuracy.

Could your wife shoot 50 consecutive shots whose centers lie within a 1 MOA disk at 100 yd? I presume shot prone. With a shooting coat and sling? Iron sights? If she could do the above standing prone, incredible, super human, hat way off.

 

[Mban2]

@Mban2:

Just so I understand your wife's marksmanship, we are talking about precision not accuracy.

Could your wife shoot 50 consecutive shots whose centers lie within a 1 MOA disk at 100 yd? I presume shot prone. With a shooting coat and sling? Iron sights? If she could do the above standing prone, incredible, super human, hat way off.

she could get close standing. At 50 she keeps it within the 10 ring and it was a rare exemption if there was a 9. But yes, she is more than capable of it in a prone 3p standard configuration. I’m interested to see what the Ammo is capable of. We also just picked up a Vudoo, so I’ll set her behind it and seehow it compares to her Anschutz. Her accuracy is just about as good as the mechanical precision of the equipment she uses.

 

[justin amateur]

Winchester Super X 45 grain subsonic hollow point, rated 1060 fps

Subsonic 22wmr? I guess if all you own is a 22wmr rifle/pistol
and you don't want the loud bang, it would be a bit quieter.

CZ 455 Feddersen Fuglie on the bench at the 100 yard range.

Visual inspection gave warning as to what was to come.
Case mouths cut at angle to center line of cartridges,
overenthusiastic crimps, lack of uniformity in drive bands and bullet shape.
This was bulk rimfire made as fast and as cheap as possible.
Minimal quality control.

One thing easily noticed, with the minimal powder load,
major drop in decibel level when shooting.

Results at 100 yards...

KH is keyhole...those bullets were tumbling.

They came from cartridges with angled case mouths and over crimped.

 

[barronian]

Well, i tried again. If it wasn't for all the slow rounds on target 2 i would have made 50 inside 1 MOA... Always useful to have an excuse

Target 3 is just to show what a 5 shot group looks like with this setup and ammo. Nice visual impression of the statistical difference between a 5 shot group and a 50 shot group.

The highest POI on target 1 was NOT the highest velocity, it was actually in the middle of the ES.
All of the low POIs in target 2 were under 1065 f/s.

Velocities, ES, etc are written on the targets.

This was the setup:

 

[Mr. Wolf]

Beautiful set up and excellent write up.
I'd appreciate it if you could comment on the following:

Is it the original barrel from Sauer?
What length?
Do you notice any point of impact shift with the Magnetospeed?

Thank you and happy shooting.

 

[barronian]

@Mr. Wolf Thanks

Yes, it is the original 710mm (27.95") barrel from Sauer. . I dont know of anyone else who makes .22 barrels for the STR. These are rather 'special' since the barrel and half of the action are one piece. The bolt lugs engage with the 'barrel'.

There is a slight change of POI with the Magnetospeed on and a very, very slight change in accuracy - so slight that it takes thousands of rounds to get a statistically valid proof of the difference.

 

[SingleShot85]

I don't think anyone is keeping 50rnds of any rifle under sub moa.....

 

[Mr. Wolf]

Barronian-
Thank you for that. That is one very accurate rifle and ammo combination.

By chance have you been to one of the Eley test ranges to get the the lot that shoots best in your rifle?
I also noticed that in the setup photo, you have Center-X. How does that shoot in the Sauer?

I think I may need to look into the STR 200s.

Cheers and happy shooting

 

[justin amateur]

SS85, I'm not going to say never...but it won't be easy.
I have a documented 3 inch 50 shot group at 200 yards.
Yes, a high end, custom built, benchrest rifle and tuner,
atop a serious mechanical rest, wielded by an experienced shooter. (not me)

A 3inch group at 200 yards would be just under an inch at 100 yards. (the half-third rule of rimfire)
You'd need optimum conditions and a majorly "magic" box of cartridges to get it done,
but I expect to see one of the shooters here to accomplish it...just wondering how long the wait.

 

[barronian]

Barronian-
Thank you for that. That is one very accurate rifle and ammo combination.

By chance have you been to one of the Eley test ranges to get the the lot that shoots best in your rifle?
I also noticed that in the setup photo, you have Center-X. How does that shoot in the Sauer?

I think I may need to look into the STR 200s.

Cheers and happy shooting

Unfortunately the Eley test range is on the other side of the country from me so i havent been there yet.

I cant get Center-X to work for me in either of my guns (STR 200 and CZ 455) when the temperature is below about 10C. I posted a comparrison a bit earlier in this thread.

 

[learjet]

heres my attempt using a mediocre lot of CX. This lot has averaged just over .55 moa, but i havent gotten anything new lately thatll do better. I have afew old lots im hoarding, maybe next time, anyways i shot a 6x5 at 50 which measured a bit better than this lots average, then i went out to 100... very humbling lol!

 

[wkw]

So disclaimer on the below pictures. I had pulled a couple shots high on both the center x and midas plus groups due to breaking shots with someone shooting next to me. My point of aim was also destroyed due to shooting it out so if I do another 50 rd group I am going to dial a false zero so I have a consistent POA.

I only counted the outer most shots to get a good idea of overall spread. If you guys think I should count more please let me know and I will. With out further ado, here are the groups. (I ran 50rds midas plus prior to the 50rd group to let the barrel acclimate to the change in ammo if needed)

Rifle specs are as follows:
Vudoo V22 Gen 1.2 w/ 18” Proof Carbon fiber barrel
TriggerTech Diamond 2 stage
Accuracy International AIAX chassis
Zero Compromise 5-27x MPCT2 in a Spuhr 6002 mount
MDT Ckye Pod
OG Str8Laced bag with heavy fill
Center x
Midas plus

View attachment 7444963View attachment 7444964View attachment 7444965

(Black stickers are 1” for reference)

You've got a 100 yard indoor range? Wow, that would be cool. Where oh Where is that.

 

[Krob95]

You've got a 100 yard indoor range? Wow, that would be cool. Where oh Where is that.

In Johnstown Colorado. It’s pretty awesome not having to be out in the cold lol

 

[kashaV]

Here is a full box of 50 at 100 yards
CZ 452 Ultra Lux (Super BRNO SAA 2500)
BRNO Peep Sights
SK Biathalon Sport

 

[justin amateur]

Is that the 6 inch or 8 inch target kV?

Shot without a scope?

No way would I be able to produce anything that tight using a peep sight.

 

[kashaV]

6 inch. Front post held at 6 o'clock on the bottom of the black. Cannot see the red dot but can see the black at that distance.
Another target on 8 inch black

 

[natdscott]

she could get close standing. At 50 she keeps it within the 10 ring and it was a rare exemption if there was a 9. But yes, she is more than capable of it in a prone 3p standard configuration. I’m interested to see what the Ammo is capable of. We also just picked up a Vudoo, so I’ll set her behind it and seehow it compares to her Anschutz. Her accuracy is just about as good as the mechanical precision of the equipment she uses.

Well hell, @Mban2 , so am I!!!!

My prone hold is not as tight as hers, and I’d not claim so. At least, I sure don’t think it is...I’d legitimately need to shoot better prone equipment to know.

For 40-round targets, on a 240 round running average, I hit about 0.725 MOA. I’ve fired as high as a 14X clean on the 300 yard MR target, whose X-ring is 2.85”. At least 10 of those X’s were all in the lower right 1/4 of that ring...so that works out to what? ..something under 1/2 minute, and I honestly felt sheepish about the 10s, the rifle was shooting so well.

I got there via ibuprofen, a pile of USAS50, Mini Palma, and 50 yard and 50 meter targets, along with a shitload of British .22, like any good American.

Prone is a different game. 1 MOA in sling prone is not a hard mark if you are careful, even without adjustable rifles.

You said Offhand.

Alright. No hard feelings here, and I’ma stfu now.

 

[drglock]

Ok here’s my entry.

RimX
Green Mountain 18”
PDC chassis
Gen II Razor 4.5-27x56
Atlus PSR bipod
Rear bag
Built by Keystone Accuracy with Padom’s reamer.

Shot indoors at 100yds with bipod and rear bag off a bench.