The whole box at 100 yards

[XP1K]

CCI TNT Green 30 grain jhp 22wmr rated 2050 fps

CZ 455 Feddersen Fuglie

Hey...why are there only 27 holes y'er asking?

Well, there's a good reason for that...

That's what's left of the magazine and mag well.

Case rupture/head separation blew out the bottom of the receiver.
Put an end to my morning of shooting while I picked up the pieces.
Bits of mag well and magazine all over the deck and bench.

Yes, the cartridge was fully seated.
Yes, the bolt was completely closed.
No, there was nothing on the bolt face to change the head space.
The head simply blew off either due to a weakness in the brass
or, as the chronograph history showed, an overcharged cartridge.

These cartridges are rated 2050 fps.
The chrony showed a high of 2406 fps, 350 fps higher than the rated mv.
That 1907 fps low, was the last shot fired, the case rupture.
Even with the loss of seal, it still exited the muzzle at almost the rated mv.
Daaaayyyyuuuuummmm!

That is the remains of the brass in the chamber

Pushed out the brass with a cleaning rod fed in from the muzzle

Trigger no longer functions, something is inside the bolt jamming the firing pin.

The head separated right at the rim flare
No bulge on the chambered brass, only the rim failed.

So much fun...CCI wants the remainder of the cartridges for analysis
and both parts of the ruptured case.

That probably wouldn't have done my 10/22 magnum any favors.
Glad you made it through the experience.

 

[justin amateur]

Yeah, it was interesting, very much a "check y'er shorts" kinda moment.

The rupture spread magwell and magazine chunks up to 15 feet away.

CCI picked up the remaining cartridges and the 2 pieces of the blown shell for analysis.
Instructed me to send the rifle to CZ for repairs.
Too late. Disassembled the bolt and pulled the trigger, cleaned, inspected, reassembled.
Adjusted the pull, bump tested multiple times, full function.
Ordered two mag well assemblies and two 22wmr/17hmr magazines.
Might as well have a backup, might happen again.
A few years down the road it'll get harder to find spares.

 

[Booner1334]

I had an out of battery detonation with CCI 22 magnum with a Kel Tek PMR 30 pistol. (Please don't judge me by my pistol choice). I really don't know what happened other that seeing a bright flash from the powder and getting hit in the forehead by a small piece of brass. No damage to the pistol and after it happened I went online and found a few cases where it had happened to other PMR users as well as others shooting .22 WMR. So was it the pistol? I wasn't doing rapid fire shooting although the pistol gets really dirty with unburnt powder so it could have been unburnt powder that prevented the round from being seated properly, or was it the ammo? ( I hate being a beta tester for some gun companies). At any rate, It drives home the need to always wear shooting glasses, and while I still shoot the pistol, I don't trust it or CCI WMR.

 

[justin amateur]

I hear ya' Booner

I hand load 1 round at a time directly into the chamber before closing the bolt.
That way I can feel if the cartridge won't seat if/when I get an out of spec cartridge.
I have found several over the past three years of testing that wouldn't seat fully.
If those cartridges had been stacked in a magazine first,
then fired from a Semiauto, I'd have experienced
multiple out of battery case ruptures. 22wmr does not receive
a whole lot of quality control inspections from what I've seen.

 

[justin amateur]

Eley Semi-Auto Benchrest Outlaw 40 grain 22lr rated 1090 fps

CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja, Sinclair bipod

One of the less expensive Eley products

 

[justin amateur]

SK Biathlon Sport 40 grain 22lr rated 1106 fps

CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja, Sinclair bipod

One audibly weak round that dropped low

 

[justin amateur]

Remington CBee 33 grain cphp 22lr rated 740 fps

CZ 455 Lilja, Sinclair bipod

Visual check of the cartridges shows multiple problems.
Deformed bullets, dents, dings, peeling copper wash, irregular seating.
Not expecting anything worthwhile from these cartridges, that's what I got.

Those 18 cartridges left in the tray would not chamber.
That's 18 out of 100 that wouldn't meet saami specs.
Those deformed bullets would not seat, too large a diameter.

 

[justin amateur]

Hey Lash...have you noticed there hasn't been much "all day long" sub moa showing up?
I don't expect it as I'm just an amateur with a garage tweaked CZ.
Seems to me that with all the high end rifles and skilled shooters at the 'hide,
there'd be more results with tighter groups posted.
Doesn't seem to be happening.
Makes me wonder if attempts were made,
but results weren't good enough to post?

 

[drglock]

Hey Lash...have you noticed there hasn't been much "all day long" sub moa showing up?
I don't expect it as I'm just an amateur with a garage tweaked CZ.
Seems to me that with all the high end rifles and skilled shooters at the 'hide,
there'd be more results with tighter groups posted.
Doesn't seem to be happening.
Makes me wonder if attempts were made,
but results weren't good enough to post?

Maybe those guys that are All day long sub moa thought you ment 25yds

 

[justin amateur]

Doc...that was cold...funny as hell, but cold.

 

[lash]

Hey Lash...have you noticed there hasn't been much "all day long" sub moa happening?
I don't expect it as I'm just an amateur with a garage tweaked CZ.
Seems to me that with all the high end rifles and better skilled shooters at the 'hide,
there'd be more results with tighter groups posted.
Doesn't seem to be happening.
Makes me wonder if attempts were made,
but results weren't good enough to post?

It’s pretty much as u expected the results would be. Not based upon my limited experience, but based upon watching your tests and trials over the past while. I think that I even posted something to that effect earlier in this thread. I am pretty sure that is what you expected as well, since you had already spent a good deal of time testing this concept.

And yes, I suspect that the dearth of other postings included this thread is a good indicator. Not only that your hypothesis seems to be proving out, but also that those that have tried have been disappointed in the results and maybe concerned about whether it was them or the ammo.

 

[justin amateur]

It's a topic of conversation at the local range.
A couple of the benchrest competitors have been watching me
and have provided boxes of ammo for testing across the chronograph.
Consensus is it's not the rifle or shooter.
Off the bench with a fully supported match rifle, ammo quality and wind
are the limiting factors when shooting for precision.
Rough enough at 50 yards, but outdoors at 100 yards,
consistent results are 3 times more difficult to obtain.

 

[phlegethon]

Vudoo 22, Ace barrel, Center-X. 100 yards, no wind, 31° F.

I am curious how centerfire rifles would do on this test. Better, I’m sure, but probably not as well as most think.

 

[justin amateur]

Center fire?
I'd have to do that with a one dot one shot target.
That way it'd be easy to verify the number of shots sent.
Be even more fun at 200 yards.
I think that needs to be attempted this spring.

I'm running out of rimfire flavors to try.
All that's left in the untried leftovers
is some Eley Benchrest Precision and Tenex,
plus a couple of boxes of 17 wsm.

 

[drglock]

Vudoo 22, Ace barrel, Center-X. 100 yards, no wind, 31° F.

View attachment 7507160

I am curious how centerfire rifles would do on this test. Better, I’m sure, but probably not as well as most think.

I’d take this all day long every day for what I do. I mostly shoot NRL22 type of matches. I try to shoot at least 2 matches a month but I also love to get to the range with just me and my 22 and shoot groups just to see what I and my setup can do. Anyone can go out and post up a group here and there that are in the .5-.6” range at 100yds and even get a good 6x5 now and then but doing the 50 at 100yds is a whole different animal. Anyone thinking they can go out and shoot 50 rounds under an inch every time is going to learn a cold hard lesson.

 

[ma smith]

The sensitivity of 22lr to minor environmental or fps volatility needs to be analyzed.

IIRC you only need 2.5 wind shift or 50fps ES to mess this test up
(each yield ∆ 0.9 or ~1MOA disturbance to 22LR @100yds | 1100 FPS).

1/50 is also 2% so if there is a >=2% probability of either event,
your skill/rifle needs to shoot .1MOA or something crazy to overcome

or you shoot indoor range with world class shooter, lot tested ammo etc

[somebody correct me if these numbers are way off]

 

[justin amateur]

Match quality 22lr needs an ES of less than 40 fps to produce less than 1 inch of vertical spread.
Wind I can compensate for or wait for lulls.
What kicks my adze is rolling turbulence.
Never know where it is or how it will shift the trajectory.
Add in cartridge defects from the assembly line,
you get unpredictable strays that ruin y'er day. Such is rimfire.

 

[Krob95]

I sold my Proof barreled vudoo and bought a 20” MTU Ace barreled vudoo. I will be trying this again once I get it out of jail, probably the back half of this coming week.

 

[ManOfMystery]

I think many people over estimate the accuracy of a .22lr.

Even with a tuned BR rig, in a bedded recoiling fixture, through a tunnel with electronic targets very few if any rifle and ammo combinations are able to keep sub MOA accuracy. You can get there, but it will take a lot of time and lots of money. Then you have no guarantees that the rifle will maintain that accuracy over the next several years or even case of ammo.

I used to work at the Eley test range for a year and over that time I shot a lot of different Tenex lots, through a lot of different guns. 40 shot groups at 50m.

 

[justin amateur]

Hey MOM!

Just the person I need to query.
You've seen the computer generated results.
Did you ever see better results at 100 yards than at 50 yards, from the same group of bullets?

Been discussing the possibility, only way to know
would be if you could track the same bullet at the two distances.

 

[ManOfMystery]

Hey MOM!

Just the person I need to query.
You've seen the computer generated results.
Did you ever see better results at 100 yards than at 50 yards, from the same group of bullets?

Been discussing the possibility, only way to know
would be if you could track the same bullet at the two distances.

I personally haven't tested both distances at the same time. But I have seen a handful of results that show that phenomenon as well as talked to several prone shooters that would use different lots at 50 and 100. No one I have talked to could give a definite answer as to why that happened but some of them thought it has something to do with barrel harmonics. Specifically the exit velocity vs position of the barrel and I would tend to agree with them.

If you're shooting at a fixed known distance for competition (with .22lr) the muzzle velocity and SD doesn't matter too much imo. When running a chronograph while testing the ammo that had middle of the road to largest SD would usually group the best at 50m and the ammo that had the best SD would usually group the worst. Remember this is only for a fixed distance.

 

[justin amateur]

Eley SemiAuto Benchrest Precision 40 grain 22lr rated 1080 fps

Couple minor dents and dings, clean crimp, some minor variations in bullet/brass dimensions

CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod

 

[Mr. Wolf]

Eley SemiAuto Benchrest Precision 40 grain 22lr rated 1080 fps

Couple minor dents and dings, clean crimp, some minor variations in bullet/brass dimensions

CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod

Thanks for sharing. i had never heard of the Eley semi-auto BR. Looks to be decent grouping for outdoors.
Any chrono #?
Appreciate the extended post on the longer range properties of the 22LR through good rifles/barrels.
YMMV, happy shooting.

 

[justin amateur]

Wolf, this brick has been consistent below 40 fps ES for 50 shots.
Better than my last purchase of Eley Match.

 

[justin amateur]

Eley SemiAuto Benchrest Outlaw 40 grain 22lr rated 1090 fps

CZ 455, Lilja, Sinclair

Clean crimps, minor scratches on the drive bands, a few dings on the noses

 

[justin amateur]

Eley Tenex 40 grain flatnose 22lr rated 1058 fps

Very clean cartridges, only a couple of dings visible on the 50 cartridges

CZ 455 Lilja, Sinclair

 

[Bradu]

I will have to try this with my cz457 and with my Vudoo once all my parts show up. I’m curious how they will do if I can get a day with decent weather.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

Wolf, this brick has been consistent below 40 fps ES for 50 shots.
Better than my last purchase of Eley Match.

Amazing results from team Eley.
My CZ457 PV didn't seem to like Eley Club and Team much, but that was with a TBAC22. I didn't have extra ammo to test suppressed and non-suppressed but if memory serves, groups were .6" - .7" at 50 yards.
Fun to follow along with your tests. Can't beat the FL weather this time of the year!
YMMV, happy shooting.

 

[Tim7139]

Out of curiosity, based on the images, is any of this exercise done shooing over flags?

 

[justin amateur]

Good evening Tim.

I make use of the wind shadow from the side wall,
and the berm vegetation movement,
along with skin response to time the squeeze.
The 100 yard range has 10 foot tall concrete side walls.
Bench 1 or 7 provides the least amount of wind effect
depending on prevailing direction.
unless it's a tailwind of any sort.

At 200 yards I set flags at 40 yard intervals.

 

[justin amateur]

Winchester Varmint HE 25 grain 17 wsm rated 2600 fps

Savage Bmag with plastic stock on heavy bag

Visual check of cartridges shows multiple problems.
Bent polymer tips, uneven seating depths, varying cartridge lengths, varying brass lengths,
uneven case mouths, sloppy crimp, varying brass diameters - some tight in the chamber - some wobble.

Results, as expected, less than desirable

Even set up on bench one, in the wind shadow, still too much spread.

Was it the plastic stock on the heavy bags? Maybe.
There is a way to find out. Barrel block rig.

Same problems as the first box...

Nope, results weren't caused by the plastic stock on heavy bag.
Just poor quality ammunition from Winchester.

 

[drglock]

Winchester Varmint HE 25 grain 17 wsm rated 2600 fps

Savage Bmag with plastic stock on heavy bag

Visual check of cartridges shows multiple problems.
Bent polymer tips, uneven seating depths, varying cartridge lengths, varying brass lengths,
uneven case mouths, sloppy crimp, varying brass diameters - some tight in the chamber - some wobble.

Results, as expected, less than desirable

Even set up on bench one, in the wind shadow, still too much spread.

Was it the plastic stock on the heavy bags? Maybe.
There is a way to find out. Barrel block rig.

Same problems as the first box...

Nope, results weren't caused by the plastic stock on heavy bag.
Just poor quality ammunition from Winchester.

Lol you sure you didn’t play fetch with your dog and those. You’d think I’m this age the manufacturers could do a better job than that.

 

[justin amateur]

Doc, if this is what Winchester is now shipping for use in 17wsm rifles,
there's no surprise that many are finding their new toys
aren't capable of the supposedly better accuracy to be obtained
as advertised when the cartridge was originally released.
This stuff was just sad. Center of critter it's adequate,
but don't ever think it's a precision made cartridge.

Kinda puts a hold on thoughts of a custom barrel, don't it?
What good is a high end rig if the ammunition is barely capable of 3 moa?

 

[hiddenshooter]

Vudoo/Center X
Pretty disappointed but I havent shot much for several years. Nearing career end + getting my ass handed to me on my 1st and only attempt = me trying this again soon. Excuse the measuring tape reference. Wasnt planning on posting (never post anything but Im always here observing).

 

[justin amateur]

HS, you got nothing to be disappointed about.
That's not the rifle or you producing those strays.
Funny how folks are willing to take the blame for cartidge defects or unpredictable puffs of wind.
CenterX is a midgrade cartridge.
Didn't test out as reliable enough to be Midas+, X-Act or Biathlon.
Some boxes are better than others, some ain't.
I think you did well at 100 yards for fifty shots.
No cherry picking going on here.
Just real world results of what happens when you have to show all 50 shots.

 

[Tim7139]

At the risk of being redundant, unless you learn the merit of windflags, you are mostly showing that you are willing to expend $ on ammo that really does not show much other than your gun goes bang 50 times in a row and/or a weather report........sorry.

 

[justin amateur]

Hey Tim, are you sure you don't want to give it a try?
It's not all that difficult. 100 yards, any setup, indoors or out.
Show us how you think it should be done.
Think of it as an opportunity to share y'er knowledge.


Speaking of which, I'm taking y'er recommendation.
Picked up a Teslong borescope and ordered a new factory 22lr barrel for my CZ 455.
I'm going to record barrel wear at 100 shot intervals for the first thousand rounds.
You were right, no documentation to support barrel break-in, only anecdotal reports.

 

[phlegethon]

Hey Tim, are you sure you don't want to give it a try?
It's not all that difficult. 100 yards, any setup, indoors or out.
Show us how you think it should be done.
Think of it as an opportunity to share y'er knowledge.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
—Theodore Roosevelt

 

[Tim7139]

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
—Theodore Roosevelt

Yeah....I kicked Teddy’s ass 4 times in matches.

 

[Tim7139]

Hey Tim, are you sure you don't want to give it a try?
It's not all that difficult. 100 yards, any setup, indoors or out.
Show us how you think it should be done.
Think of it as an opportunity to share y'er knowledge.


Speaking of which, I'm taking y'er recommendation.
Picked up a Teslong borescope and ordered a new factory 22lr barrel for my CZ 455.
I'm going to record barrel wear at 100 shot intervals for the first thousand rounds.
You were right, no documentation to support barrel break-in, only anecdotal reports.

That’s not really the point.
Say you go to the Dr., he decides to listen to your heart by placing a coffee cup on your chest.
Now.....you’re either thinking, or asking..... Doc, why don’t you use a stethoscope, ya know, like all those other docs use?

you will never....repeat never, be able to ascertain any useful information nor make any intelligent decisions as to what is going on, in an excercise, without the benefit of atmospheric reporting......via flags or wind measurement devices, often both.......especially behind a 22.

As an experiment, simply for your own personal amusement, beg, borrow , steal a set of flage, paying even moderate attention to them and see. Bet you a pretty farthing what you though and what you think will be somewhat different.

Thanks again for the invite except There is zero practical info to gain in my world with this particular experiment. Besides, I get plenty of shooting....CFBR winter league group matches every Sun AM. 22’s all ceaned/oiled resting quietly until April or so.
my next serious testing is likely gonna haul my lazy butt to Lapua test center with 2-3 rifles after ski season.

I promise, I won’t bother you further here.....have fun.

 

[hiddenshooter]

Center X was the best I had. Have any of you seen the # thresholds for lapua like eley does with RSD? 1mm off from tenex to match and so on... Havent lot tested Eley or Lapua @ their respective facilities. I agree with Tim about the wind. Especially with rimfire and certainly at longer distances.

 

[hiddenshooter]

HS, you got nothing to be disappointed about.
That's not the rifle or you producing those strays.
Funny how folks are willing to take the blame for cartidge defects or unpredictable puffs of wind.
CenterX is a midgrade cartridge.
Didn't test out as reliable enough to be Midas+, X-Act or Biathlon.
Some boxes are better than others, some ain't.
I think you did well at 100 yards for fifty shots.
No cherry picking going on here.
Just real world results of what happens when you have to show all 50 shots.

I agree. I'll throw some flags out and see if I can omit the 5 rounds thats opening it past an MOA.

 

[justin amateur]

I hear ya' Tim.
I keep trying just to see if I can annoy you into adding a target or two.

I do use wind-i-cators on days when I feel so inclined.
I have 2 sets, both homemade.
Needed for those mornings when my results aren't what I expected.

 

[Tim7139]

I hear ya' Tim.
I keep trying just to see if I can annoy you into adding a target or two.

I do use wind-i-cators on days when I feel so inclined.
I have 2 sets, both homemade.
Needed for those mornings when my results aren't what I expected.

Never ever allow any forum stuff to become an annoyance getting or giving.

 

[hiddenshooter]

Tried it again yesterday. Prone, rear sock, bipod, 39 degrees. No wind flags yet but unlike the 1st time I waited if the wind picked up (pretty calm day).

 

[justin amateur]

Daaayyyyuuuumm HS, that's almost as tight as the results from a Bleiker in a test tunnel!
With twice the number of rounds sent!

That's the group aggregate from the ammo test done in 2010.
25 shots at 100 yards.

Link to original test below...

You are being redirected...

 

[hiddenshooter]

Daaayyyyuuuumm HS, that's almost as tight as the results from a Bleiker in a test tunnel!
With twice the number of rounds sent!

That's the group aggregate from the ammo test done in 2010.
25 shots at 100 yards.

Link to original test below...

You are being redirected...

I haven't put calipers on it but 1st glance looks like it's a hair outside 1 moa.

 

[hiddenshooter]

Daaayyyyuuuumm HS, that's almost as tight as the results from a Bleiker in a test tunnel!
With twice the number of rounds sent!

That's the group aggregate from the ammo test done in 2010.
25 shots at 100 yards.

Link to original test below...

You are being redirected...

Just over 1 MOA... like I thought. 1.099 vertical. Well just .052 to go. Imma wait until it warms up and try again.

 

[jbell]

Hiddenshooter knows his business when it comes to this precision rifle game...

 

[justin amateur]

Doing break-in on a new 22lr 455 heavy barrel,
Winchester 36 grain cphp rated 1280 fps.

CZ 455 Varmint, heavy bags

That's some lame looking ammunition

Results match the appearance.