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Throwing a little shade at some high end ARs
- Thread starter ut755ln
- Start date
This thread has gone Full Retard...
Every firearm is intended to be ran and maintained, you wouldn't buy a new truck and not put a drop of oil in it would you???
I don't know what Rambo Seal Team 6 Jerkoff fantasy you have running through your head, but if you don't maintain your weapons they will fail on you some sooner than others.
I have owned and shot every rifle mentioned above and I am by no means a KAC Fanboy, in fact I make it a point to call out gloating KAC owners and people who know me will testify to that. But! Give the choice I will almost always pick a SR15 because I myself have never had any issues with any of my SR15s and out of all the weapons mentioned above with the exception of maybe the Radian and JP the SR15 will shoot damn close to 1/2 MOA.
That being said if I wanted a rifle to run hard and abuse without breaking the Bank I would go with the Geissele Super Duty, I have a couple friends who are currently running them and they all call it the cheaper better version SR15
The the PWS would be my second choice although they are getting a bit pricey.
Every firearm is intended to be ran and maintained, you wouldn't buy a new truck and not put a drop of oil in it would you???
I don't know what Rambo Seal Team 6 Jerkoff fantasy you have running through your head, but if you don't maintain your weapons they will fail on you some sooner than others.
I have owned and shot every rifle mentioned above and I am by no means a KAC Fanboy, in fact I make it a point to call out gloating KAC owners and people who know me will testify to that. But! Give the choice I will almost always pick a SR15 because I myself have never had any issues with any of my SR15s and out of all the weapons mentioned above with the exception of maybe the Radian and JP the SR15 will shoot damn close to 1/2 MOA.
That being said if I wanted a rifle to run hard and abuse without breaking the Bank I would go with the Geissele Super Duty, I have a couple friends who are currently running them and they all call it the cheaper better version SR15
The the PWS would be my second choice although they are getting a bit pricey.
When I think about threads like this, I ask myself:
"If you had to purchase an AR15 RIGHT now, and then immediately get into a shooting the second that fucker was slapped into your hands with 0 rounds through it....and if it fucked up, you were gonna DIE...what would it be?"
At the end of the day the answer for me was a LMT MARS 12" Piston gun.
If not an AR type rifle, it would have been an HK53 or a Sig 551, both guns I have a long happy experience with.
"If you had to purchase an AR15 RIGHT now, and then immediately get into a shooting the second that fucker was slapped into your hands with 0 rounds through it....and if it fucked up, you were gonna DIE...what would it be?"
At the end of the day the answer for me was a LMT MARS 12" Piston gun.
If not an AR type rifle, it would have been an HK53 or a Sig 551, both guns I have a long happy experience with.
All my KAC's will run with Wolf steel case or PMC 223, above 30* but if it's really cold, at least in one 16" gun, it has short stroked a few times on the PMC, but not always, in weather in the 20*'s.
Drop the low powered shit out, drop in 5.56 NATO loads, on the same fuckin' day & hour & the short stroking is GONE.
Make of that whatever the fuck you want.
MM
that's odd for sure given the wolf is fine and I'm pretty sure the wolf is less than the pmc.
Never shot the Wolf in that cold of weather, so can't confirm one way or the other. Any cold weather shooting, which really is not much fun anyway, gets 5.56 pressure ammo or reloads.
But sometimes, you just gotta do it to find out what works or doesn't.
MM
LOL. No the thread to come across literally the day after dropping some $$$ on an SR-15
If they're made out of the same quality of aluminum and steel, all the measurements line up, all the holes are drilled in the right places (and are straight), all the components are likewise within a good tolerance, and finally, it's assembled correctly... then, yes.
I've had $3000+ AR's that didn't check all the boxes, and some that did, same thing with the cheap ones I've had or cobbled together too.
Generally, like I said before: the more money you spend, the better the chance of getting a good one, but not always.
Yeah I am a fan of the Geissele Super Duty, it is the next on my list. I managed to pick up the upper and lower separately on auctions for a pretty decent discount on the PWS. Maybe I had a one off bad experience with the KAC.
I don’t care what you shoot. Im simply trying to debunk the misinformation that there isn’t a difference in quality. True, any manufacturer can slap a large price tag on a product without it being a quality product. But those large name, reputable manufacturers are usually just that for a reason. And their large price tags are backed by the proven quality of their products.
The original complaint was that KAC sr15’s didn’t feed well, mixed with a lot of chiming in about expensive AR’s being mostly a waist of money.
My point was that certain high end rifles, like the popular names mentioned, are purpose driven, hard use rifles. Most were meticulously designed for fighting and hard use. They are also commonly produced to fire specific types of ammunition. I know that last part, because I make a lot of that specific ammunition. The amount of quality control, subject matter experts and detail that goes in to that realm of defensive weapons/ammunition is beyond most people’s understanding. These companies don’t just follow a vague milspec/saami/nato guideline. They put mountains of focus and effort into research and development.
So what I am saying is that yes, there is a difference between certain high end products and certain mid-grade/low end products. It’s just that most people don’t understand/require that higher end product. And there is also the obvious “defend my purchase to the death” group on both sides of the spectrum.
I am fully aware that everything has a fail point and expensive, popular brand rifles break too. I am also fully aware that people have seen certain instances where they witness these high end rifles go down in a class while a lower grade rifle runs flawlessly. What they don’t stop to consider is how long and how hard any specific rifle was used prior to that class. Or, how each specific rifle was maintained… Simply seeing one or two scenarios play out in real time doesn’t exactly work as the “end all, be all” for an argument or discussion. At absolute best, it’s a tiny sample size to reference from. When I stated that people should go to classes and run their rifles and see other rifle brands ran, I meant over several classes. Over the course of several classes, you will most likely start to see a trend of those big name rifles having a lower failure rate. And if you dive into the professional use realm rather deeply, you will start to understand the little key differences between brands that ultimately make a large difference in the grand scheme of it all. It all boils down to intended/required use of your rifle. Hope that clears up my view point of the subject.
I bought a lightly used 16" SR15 for an unbelievably good price before covid started because I wanted to see what the hype was about. I've only run my reloads through it, 55, 62, and 77 grain. The 55 grain load is on the light side and the 77 is warm. I have not seen a single malfunction so far with my ammo.
My son ran some steel cased ammo in it, and it choked. Oh well, go be poor somewhere else
My son ran some steel cased ammo in it, and it choked. Oh well, go be poor somewhere else
I am not trolling you, it is a serious question. What branch/units use KAC? It seems like they are kind of general purpose M4s issued like the FN?
Did it really shoot that much different than any other mid-length gas 16" cobbed together AR? I watch reviews on Youtube, and dudes are creaming on them "OOhh the recoil is so soft..." this and that. Or am I gonna have to do like you buy one to experience the hype lol.I bought a lightly used 16" SR15 for an unbelievably good price before covid started because I wanted to see what the hype was about. I've only run my reloads through it, 55, 62, and 77 grain. The 55 grain load is on the light side and the 77 is warm. I have not seen a single malfunction so far with my ammo.
My son ran some steel cased ammo in it, and it choked. Oh well, go be poor somewhere else
PMC Bronze 55gr is the most under powered brass cased ammo there is. I sure as hell wouldn't use it as a combat load in any of my AR's.
Expecting it to run 100% , again in any AR15, would be foolish. Expecting it to run in a finely tuned AR is crazy.
5.56 powered ammo is the answer.... Even Uncle Sugar already knows this.
Expecting it to run 100% , again in any AR15, would be foolish. Expecting it to run in a finely tuned AR is crazy.
5.56 powered ammo is the answer.... Even Uncle Sugar already knows this.
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I’m not aware of KAC’s current contracts. Or each branch/units individually fielded weapons. I would be willing to go as far as saying that there are still plenty of SR25’s still floating around in active use. KAC however, holds several military contracts and focuses the vast majority of their research and development towards military offerings from what I am aware of. A simple google search may provide you more information then I am aware of as I’m not tied to KAC personally in any way.
It’s what I use to set my adjustable gas blocks.
I can totally see a finely tuned gas system choking with it and I wouldn’t fault the rifle at all for doing so.
Mine is recoils “softer” than my BCM and isn’t way over gassed. It also holds better groups.
It is a perfect suppressor host. No need for an adjustable gas block, or custom tube. With my Surefire mini there’s no gas blowback.
As a KAC fanboy, I’ll admit again: you don’t see the performance benefit until you’re shooting enough to break bolts, and supposedly the E3 bolt doesn’t break easily like over 20k rounds.
But who here doesn't have a spare bolt? That's why I don't get it personally.
I get it. I have spares for my SBR too, I wonder if I’ll even ever break a bolt.
I consider the KAC as a nice to have. But, if you can’t get a good deal, or don’t have the cash in general, might as well get a BCM or something else. I like the engineering that went into it, so I was always wanting to get one, and I did.
Got rid of mine when I got the Geissele. There wasn't enough difference in function or felt recoil to justify $1000 difference. Geissele had the better trigger and finish.
I’m not seeing how the Geissele are considered grossly cheaper that the SR15’s 16”. I’m seeing $1,975 for the black Geissele at normal pricing. KAC SR15 16” is $2,470 but comes with iron sights that are about $300 and could be easily sold if you wanted too, probably for more?
If you take the sights out of the equation your only talking a couple hundred bucks.
That being said I’ve never handled a G rifle. Only JP Professional and KAC.
If you take the sights out of the equation your only talking a couple hundred bucks.
That being said I’ve never handled a G rifle. Only JP Professional and KAC.
Everytime someone uses the term "hard use" an "operator" gets a chubby.
You're seeing MSRP, Geisseles were being had at $1600 out the door on black Friday. Other retailers like primary arms and brownells were consistently having them on sale. I paid $1250 for my Geissele. KAC irons are so easy to find on the secondary market that trying to obtain a bunch of money for them is a fools errand.
Where are you finding a KAC for msrp in stock?
Nothing wrong with KAC, it was a nice rifle while I had it but I just couldn't justify keeping it over the Geissele. With the way DD sales have been popping up I may have to grab one of those again and throw a LaRue MBT in it as a backup.
Bro Geissele done gone buck wild, they want $1900-2200 for their rifles and “Black Friday” pricing is not regular pricing. However, BF pricing is about the retail price they were before Bill lost his fucking mind.
KAC irons are $230-280 secondary market any day. Even if KAC isn’t in stock for MSRP, the Geissele’s in stock are at MSRP and wildly overpriced for what you get, including the terrible color from the drunk worker dunking the rifles in the anodizing tank.
I agree the pricing on Geisseles website is insane however you can find deals for $1600-1700 pretty frequently on brownells and primary arms. I've owned a few Geisseles and the anodizing on mine were perfect, they were all luna black though.
If we are going to talk aesthetics then how about scratches all over a $2500 rifle, some of them being quite deep. Even on their SR25s, same thing. It's also nice when they send you bent irons and their advice "just bend them back"
If we are going to discuss price vs "what you get" then buying all these rifles are a waste and you should only build...with exception of the IWI Zion that was on sale for $699.
Geissele isn't worth MSRP and neither is KAC, like I said I paid $1250 for my super duty and it has functioned flawlessly, soft shooting, not a ton of gas in the face. Plus, it has a good flash hider that serves as a QD mount for a suppressor that is quite a bit cheaper than the KAC offering and is usually in stock.
I have the 11.5 carry handle pistol one that shoots nothing but tula 223. Angry poor noises ftw.
Pretty much anything high end that’s not boutique comes to you looking like a blem, that’s for certain. Though my experience with KAC CS has been pleasant and all issues were solved with satisfaction.
I will say JP has the best fit and finish out of everything I’ve ever seen. Dare I say perfect or damn close. With the highly polished BCG and the silent captured spring, they feel super smooth. Feels smooth too when shooting. Not that any of that matters, just sayin.
My thoughts echo the OP.
My thoughts echo the OP.
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Yeah in my original post, I said it was my favorite in term of shooting for all the DI guns.
I was contemplating selling mine, but I think that would be foolish. The professional is a really sweet pkg. I took my CompM5 off of it and put it on the KAC, so need to figure out what to put on it next.
Well the entire secondary market must be wrong then. Price some takeoffs at $250 and they sell in a few days easily.
It has nothing to do with being the best.. When people pimp certain products, the herd will follow. It's why KAC can charge what they do. It's why people pay $40-$50 for a FCD dust cover, $600-$800 for a enhanced LMT bcg or KAC sandcutter. It is also why Geissele kept increasing their prices and would still sell out even after their barrel coating change, handguard fiasco, BF fiasco ect.
We are our own worst enemy in that regard.
Yup, its KAC. They could sell aluminum stock as 0% lowers and you would have people pimping it as revolutionary and the best.
If you ever decide to get in the mood for some foolery, I would be down to take the JP off your hands.
Since we have video from the Battle of Kenosha, I think we all learned not to go into action with Aguila .223 unless you have an FA on your upper.
You guys should now do Savage vs AI.
