Time to start applying centerfire logic to .22 (was just zero, now expanded to other areas)

[Dthomas3523]

Took the day off and zeroed my NRL22 at 50y and PRS rifle at 100y. Trying to keep them similar. This is a great topic on data. Here's the dope I confirmed today, just now noticing barely any down dialing... I find winter changes things, but today was Warm for Maine, little wind. SKLR shot well in the vudoo, 55 deg, 50% hum, 100ft. Ignore the old dope, lol. Great topic D Thomas!!

Keep in mind, the 50yd zero is along the same lines as a 3-400yd zero with your centerfire. As far as the chance of having a wind error in your zero.

When I was using a 50yd zero, there were two ranges I usually shot at. I had a consistent .2 windage difference in my zeros at each range.

This all but disappeared when I went to a 25 or 30yd. Maybe a small difference, but not enough to miss.

 

[StrayDog]

That's true. I was zeroing at 25y through the winter with Lapua Biathlon, but the down dialing was annoying at times. You're right about exposing my range bias too, my local NRL22 club is always at the same range, with a varied angled left to right wind, so I actually favor a slight left zero bias. I'd probably be more off if I went somewhere else... If only there were more rimfire matches around here! We max at 100yds. Really wish we could stretch to 300+ Will be fun to watch NRL22 COFs evolve as rimfire matches push the steel further out.

 

[darth_ritis]

Even though I've always zero'd at 50 yards, I just ran a test in Strelok Pro with all my 22 rifle profiles to see if zeroing at 25 would be an advantage for me.

Open the drop table (spreadsheet icon) and configure it for 10-50 yards (or meters) with a 1 yard (meter) increment. Find the range where the vertical correction flattens out. Set that as your zero range on your scope (temporarily) and go back to the drop table. You should see every distance marked with a U for "up", or perhaps the peak of the curve has D0.0 for vertical correction. When you find the peak, this would be your ideal competition zero so that everything is dialed up from zero.

I have a hard time zeroing at odd distances at public ranges, so I may not change my zero. I find it easy to mask minor POI shifts at 25 and find it important to check at 100 yards that my elevation dope is right and my group isn't off left or right. I'll fine-tune my windage zero if the 100 yard group is off, unless the wind is gusting.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Even though I've always zero'd at 50 yards, I just ran a test in Strelok Pro with all my 22 rifle profiles to see if zeroing at 25 would be an advantage for me.

Open the drop table (spreadsheet icon) and configure it for 10-50 yards (or meters) with a 1 yard (meter) increment. Find the range where the vertical correction flattens out. Set that as your zero range on your scope (temporarily) and go back to the drop table. You should see every distance marked with a U for "up", or perhaps the peak of the curve has D0.0 for vertical correction. When you find the peak, this would be your ideal competition zero so that everything is dialed up from zero.

I have a hard time zeroing at odd distances at public ranges, so I may not change my zero. I find it easy to mask minor POI shifts at 25 and find it important to check at 100 yards that my elevation dope is right and my group isn't off left or right. I'll fine-tune my windage zero if the 100 yard group is off, unless the wind is gusting.

This is the equivalent to zero’ing a centerfire at 100 and then “checking wind” at 400. Which is one of the things this thread is trying to bring to light. Even on a light wind day, of say 3mph you can have up to .3 mil of wind error. 5mph jumps it to .5 and 8mph goes to .8.

And that’s *if* you were even able to obtain a wind free zero at 50yds.

Most of what we have been doing with a Rimfire doesn’t hold up and needs to be looked at from all the advancements we have made in centerfire.

All adjustments being up is the secondary reason. I’d take a 15yd zero that has almost no chance of wind in the zero and be forced to dial down on some targets (if my turret’s zero stop allowed for that much down).

Basically, a zero of anything over 30yds is taking a larger risk of not having an as environment free zero as possible.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Remember, it’s called a zero. We want everything as close to “zero” as possible, including the possible wind influence in that zero.

 

[darth_ritis]

Zeroing distance is a trade-off. Closer distances have less wind effect, that's true, but the POI can be a bit off and it's easy to miss that especially with 5 or 10 shot groups making a ragged hole big enough to hide a tenth or two of error in zero. I'd rather zero at 35 instead of 50 but I don't have access to ranges with targets at that distance, so it's a compromise. I also find it easier to "aim small" at 50 rather than distances at or near minimum scope parallax.

This is the equivalent to zero’ing a centerfire at 100 and then “checking wind” at 400. Which is one of the things this thread is trying to bring to light. Even on a light wind day, of say 3mph you can have up to .3 mil of wind error. 5mph jumps it to .5 and 8mph goes to .8.

And that’s *if* you were even able to obtain a wind free zero at 50yds.

Well, not exactly, or at least not the same intent. If POA/POI is off by an unexpected amount, for elevation but also windage, I can re-check my zero and reason about why. If the wind is strong or gusty, I don't even bother, too much variation. If the wind is light and consistent, I've found the zero to be a bit off more often than it's been any other reason. And anecdotally I've done better in matches when the opportunity comes up to validate zero this way. Given a solid zero, someone could check wind the same way though. Probably two sides of the same coin.

A wind-free zero - I guess it depends. I'm fairly often able to zero in almost no wind at an outdoor range, but have seen serious shifts in an indoor range. So there's probably no such thing as a wind-free environment to zero in, but there can be conditions where there isn't enough wind to matter at zeroing distances.

Most of what we have been doing with a Rimfire doesn’t hold up and needs to be looked at from all the advancements we have made in centerfire.

Can you dive into what doesn't hold up in more detail? I'm curious to explore that, with the fundamental differences compared to centerfire. Given the small, 19th-century shaped bullet going subsonic speeds fired with no recoil and limited to factory ammo, at what point might the application of everything we've learned about centerfire precision start to break down? I wonder how much these new advancements like the new CuttingEdge bullets will make a difference in narrowing that gap?

I'm excited to see where threads like this are going, it's wonderful that 22 is getting so much attention.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Zeroing distance is a trade-off. Closer distances have less wind effect, that's true, but the POI can be a bit off and it's easy to miss that especially with 5 or 10 shot groups making a ragged hole big enough to hide a tenth or two of error in zero. I'd rather zero at 35 instead of 50 but I don't have access to ranges with targets at that distance, so it's a compromise. I also find it easier to "aim small" at 50 rather than distances at or near minimum scope parallax.



Well, not exactly, or at least not the same intent. If POA/POI is off by an unexpected amount, for elevation but also windage, I can re-check my zero and reason about why. If the wind is strong or gusty, I don't even bother, too much variation. If the wind is light and consistent, I've found the zero to be a bit off more often than it's been any other reason. And anecdotally I've done better in matches when the opportunity comes up to validate zero this way. Given a solid zero, someone could check wind the same way though. Probably two sides of the same coin.

A wind-free zero - I guess it depends. I'm fairly often able to zero in almost no wind at an outdoor range, but have seen serious shifts in an indoor range. So there's probably no such thing as a wind-free environment to zero in, but there can be conditions where there isn't enough wind to matter at zeroing distances.



Can you dive into what doesn't hold up in more detail? I'm curious to explore that, with the fundamental differences compared to centerfire. Given the small, 19th-century shaped bullet going subsonic speeds fired with no recoil and limited to factory ammo, at what point might the application of everything we've learned about centerfire precision start to break down? I wonder how much these new advancements like the new CuttingEdge bullets will make a difference in narrowing that gap?

I'm excited to see where threads like this are going, it's wonderful that 22 is getting so much attention.

Your POI is not off at 15/20/25 if you don’t shoot 5 and 10 shot groups to zero.

This is Simple. Shoot a round into paper, the use that as your POA. If the next bullet doesn’t go into the same hole or barely outside of it, then you aren’t zero’d. No reason to send 5 or 10 shots at the same POA.

If you are able to zero wind free outside at 50 and 100 yds, you are in a rare location that gets less than 3mph of wind. As it only takes 3-5mph minimum to add wind into your zero.

Again, would you zero at 100 and check your wind at 400 with a centerfire?

Becauase that’s the exact equivalent of what you described.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

'Zero' the windage at 15-25 with a vertical line lined up with your reticle.

Then 'Zero' for your elevation at the distance that makes the most sense for dialing efficiency for ranges used, matching up to a scale of the centerfire you use.

Gallia est omnis divisa in partes duas...

 

[darth_ritis]

Your POI is not off at 15/20/25 if you don’t shoot 5 and 10 shot groups to zero.

This is Simple. Shoot a round into paper, the use that as your POA. If the next bullet doesn’t go into the same hole or barely outside of it, then you aren’t zero’d. No reason to send 5 or 10 shots at the same POA.

22LR is not precise enough for one round to be guaranteed perfect POA/POI. A one round zero is ridiculous, even for centerfire.

 

[Dthomas3523]

22LR is not precise enough for one round to be guaranteed perfect POA/POI. A one round zero is ridiculous, even for centerfire.

Jesus man. You do it 3 or 4 times. Just not 5 and 10 shots at one POA.

This is how many people zero their center fire rifle.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Or put up pasty dots. Whatever you want to do.

With my vudoo and Mpct2 reticle, when zero’d I can aim anywhere on paper, pull the trigger and a single bullet hole will appear exactly where the center dot in the crosshair is. Every.....single......time.

If your rifle won’t, then you don’t have the proper equipment for serious .22prs competition.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Here is a good video on a method to zero without shooting groups at each POA.

Getting off the rifle and back on is a good way to make sure you AND the rifle are zero’d.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

I zero at 50 yards for two reasons:

1) 50 yards is what we use for 22lr ARA benchrest competition, so I am used to it
2) 50 yard groups are larger than 25 yard groups (assuming everything is the same: conditions,shooter skill etc) but I get to see where the center of the group is and adjust zero to that average. I have found that My 25 and 50 yard zeroes are close, but not the same and using a 50 yard zero for longer ranges over 100 yards results in more hits for me. I feel that i get more reliable data from 50 yards.

22 has so many variables beyond our control I’m amazed that we hit as much as we do

1) ammo charge consistency is so scattered, 10-30 ES for good ammo, 15-50 for decent ammo and 25+-100+ for cheap ammo are all values I’ve seen on my chrono. More $ usually means better ammo but i will get a couple wild rounds per box of fifty out the most expensive match ammo i buy for benchrest from multiple brands really makes for frustration .

2) Temperature is a bigger environmental factor then people give it credit for. Zero your gun on a cold morning with cold ammo for a match. 11-12 oclock noon comes and all of a sudden you are missing every target you were nailing in practice because rifle and ammo sitting in sun warming up, changing mv just enough to miss. When I shoot silhouette in winter i often have to dial in .25-.5 MOA more at 77 meters and an extra .5-.75 MOA at 100 meters compared to a summer zero. depending on how much it warms up i have to dial it back out by the end of the match. I’ve been shooting a lot of NRA offhand silhouette the last three years. Enough to move up two classes and scores are close to moving up yet another class. Temp changes are noticeable even in offhand.

3) Barrel harmonics are real. We cant ladder test 22 like we can with centerfire. Ladder testing is essentially fine tuning powder loads and the resultant mv to your barrel harmonic for a favorable small impact group. Closest we can come to that in the rimfire world is lot testing ammo and adding fixed or variable weight “tuners” to the barrel to influence the vibration harmonics to give us favorable results. See varmint al’s webpages for some interesting reading with FEA on 22lr. It’s pretty involved deep reading, but the gist of the article is that “yes you can tune in great precision for a fixed range, but that will also take you out of tune at other ranges”. How much out of tune at other ranges is what you have to decide and this is another reason i use a 50 yard zero. http://www.varmintal.comwww.varmintal.com/a22lr.htm

Also keep in mind how far above bore centerline your scope is mounted As that will drastically effect your poi under 50 yards (once past 50, results even out). A tall set of rings has very different settings at 10 20 30 35 yards from a low mounted scope. This is why most bullet drop programs ask for scope height above bore. Don’t just use the default setting, go out and measure it if accuracy matters to you.

Wind driven bullet rise and drop due to the magness effect affects all shooters, 22 is no exception and due to it’s slow speed has even more influence than its supersonic centerfire cousins. If you don’t know what the magness effect is and you want to shoot long range, then you should research it. Ive seen over an inch difference in Poi height Shooting 22 benchrest at 50 yards from 3 o clock vs 9 o clock winds with the same poa.

Heck, if I could have my own 22 range, my 22s would never leave the house...

The old one died about a year ago. TigerShilone is bringing it back, looks like it is on the schedule for June14th at the Sheutzen range, where it used to be at the 200yrd last 'berm'. crci.org has the schedule- though it says 2019, not 2020.

@Tiger_Shiloneyou have any comments?

I am resurrecting the Steel Dogs match at Colorado rifle Club on a trial basis second Sunday June through September on the Scheutzen 200 yard line. Schedule is listed and approved here https://crci.org/EventSchedule/tabid/2560/Default.aspx (double click on event schedule to refresh to 2020 dates is if it displays the 2019 year. New webmaster issues). I’m trying to get the COF published on the web but it’s not there yet.

I didn't feel like playing equipment cop, setting up a time eating paper score stage, and I like a set of consistent published rules (not Facebook updates). That is why I didn’t set up a NRL22 match. Just show up with a safe 22 and shoot the match with the time limits. your skill reflects your score with 14 steel targets from 35 to 200 yards.

compare ring heights between these two very different 22lr match guns





edit add: EDIT pics corrected 3/6/20

 

[Dthomas3523]

I zero at 50 yards for two reasons:

1) 50 yards is what we use for 22lr ARA benchrest competition, so I am used to it
2) 50 yard groups are larger than 25 yard groups (assuming everything is the same: conditions,shooter skill etc) but I get to see where the center of the group is and adjust zero to that average. I have found that My 25 and 50 yard zeroes are close, but not the same and using a 50 yard zero for longer ranges over 100 yards results in more hits for me. I feel that i get more reliable data from 50 yards.

22 has so many variables beyond our control I’m amazed that we hit as much as we do

1) ammo charge consistency is so scattered, 10-30 ES for good ammo, 15-50 for decent ammo and 25+-100+ for cheap ammo are all values I’ve seen on my chrono. More $ usually means better ammo but i will get a couple wild rounds per box of fifty out the most expensive match ammo i buy for benchrest from multiple brands really makes for frustration .

2) Temperature is a bigger environmental factor then people give it credit for. Zero your gun on a cold morning with cold ammo for a match. 11-12 oclock noon comes and all of a sudden you are missing every target you were nailing in practice because rifle and ammo sitting in sun warming up, changing mv just enough to miss. When I shoot silhouette in winter i often have to dial in .25-.5 MOA more at 77 meters and an extra .5-.75 MOA at 100 meters compared to a summer zero. depending on how much it warms up i have to dial it back out by the end of the match. I’ve been shooting a lot of NRA offhand silhouette the last three years. Enough to move up two classes and scores are close to moving up yet another class. Temp changes are noticeable even in offhand.

3) Barrel harmonics are real. We cant ladder test 22 like we can with centerfire. Ladder testing is essentially fine tuning powder loads and the resultant mv to your barrel harmonic for a favorable small impact group. Closest we can come to that in the rimfire world is lot testing ammo and adding fixed or variable weight “tuners” to the barrel to influence the vibration harmonics to give us favorable results. See varmint al’s webpages for some interesting reading with FEA on 22lr. It’s pretty involved deep reading, but the gist of the article is that “yes you can tune in great precision for a fixed range, but that will also take you out of tune at other ranges”. How much out of tune at other ranges is what you have to decide and this is another reason i use a 50 yard zero. http://www.varmintal.comwww.varmintal.com/a22lr.htm

Also keep in mind how far above bore centerline your scope is mounted As that will drastically effect your poi under 50 yards (once past 50, results even out). A tall set of rings has very different settings at 10 20 30 35 yards from a low mounted scope. This is why most bullet drop programs ask for scope height above bore. Don’t just use the default setting, go out and measure it if accuracy matters to you.

Wind rise and drop due to the magness effect affects all shooters, 22 is no exception and due to it’s slow speed has even more influence than its supersonic centerfire cousins. If you don’t know what the magness effect is and you want to shoot long range, then you should research it. Ive seen over an inch difference in Poi height Shooting 22 benchrest at 50 yards from 3 o clock vs 9 o clock winds with the same poa.





I am resurrecting the Steel Dogs match at Colorado rifle Club on a trial basis second Sunday June through September on the Scheutzen 200 yard line. Schedule is listed and approved here (double click on event schedule to refresh to 2020 dates is if it displays the 2019 year. New webmaster issues). I’m trying to get the COF published on the web but it’s not there yet. www.crci.org

I didn't feel like playing equipment cop, setting up a time eating paper score stage, and like a set of consistent published rules (not Facebook updates) Which is why I didn’t set up a NRL22 match instead. This way you just show up with a safe 22 and shoot the match with the time limits and your skill reflects your score with 14 steel targets from 35 to 200 yards.

compare ring heights between these two very different 22lr match guns





edit add: cant add proper single imgur pic from phone, need to still edit on pc

A note on scope height in relation to bore, it’s just like anything else in a ballistic solver. Start out with the exact height, and then tweak if needed.

We can only change a few things in software that affect dope:

BC (unless using a CDC)

MV

Sight Height


All three can be tweaked to make the curve match up with real world dope.

 

[darth_ritis]

I am resurrecting the Steel Dogs match at Colorado rifle Club on a trial basis second Sunday June through September on the Scheutzen 200 yard line. Schedule is listed and approved here (double click on event schedule to refresh to 2020 dates is if it displays the 2019 year. New webmaster issues). I’m trying to get the COF published on the web but it’s not there yet. www.crci.org

This is great news, I enjoy that match.

 

[OldHistorian]

I zero at 50 yards using a .22 for several reasons(10 round group min)-
1) minimize the chance of a poor zero that has disproportionate effect at longer ranges;
2) I have a range at which I shoot for zero which is pretty well protected from wind; (In a depression)
3) it is more convenient than zeroing at 100 yards, and most of my shots are under 5x that zero distance.
(I should note that I zero at 300 with my CF LR stick, as I can hold COM on an 18" target and hit it with no ranging/elevation shift out to about 350 yards- the military BSZ concept. In other words, if I am in a hurry, I can hit out to 350 yards without ranging or needing data. )

 

[Dthomas3523]

I zero at 50 yards using a .22 for several reasons(10 round group min)-
1) minimize the chance of a poor zero that has disproportionate effect at longer ranges;
2) I have a range at which I shoot for zero which is pretty well protected from wind; (In a depression)
3) it is more convenient than zeroing at 100 yards, and most of my shots are under 5x that zero distance.
(I should note that I zero at 300 with my CF LR stick, as I can hold COM on an 18" target and hit it with no ranging/elevation shift out to about 350 yards- the military BSZ concept. In other words, if I am in a hurry, I can hit out to 350 yards without ranging or needing data. )

The more optimal way for your centerfire would be to zero at 100 and then dial your 300 dope in for your max point blank zero.

Same idea with Rimfire. Zero closer and dial in.

 

[1badDart]

I don't shoot groups when zeroing, I may shoot one bull until I get it close. Then I shoot targets like the A-17 (.135" 10 ring) with several bulls, one shot per bull. IMHO this gives me a better idea what my rifle is doing.

This and $1.50 will buy you a cup of coffee in some places.

 

[OldHistorian]

The more optimal way for your centerfire would be to zero at 100 and then dial your 300 dope in for your max point blank zero.

Same idea with Rimfire. Zero closer and dial in.

I hear you, but I am reluctant to rely on the scope settings if I do not have to. I can hold out to 800 yards without having to adjust the scope, at least for CF. I see no advantage to zeroing closer. Why do it ? With .22 there isn't much difference between a 25 and 50 yard zero, at least with my setup, but I prefer getting farther out with the zero for field use.

Not saying you are not right, but I see no real advantage, and some real-world disadvantages to zeroing short and dialing for distance. Please explain?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I hear you, but I am reluctant to rely on the scope settings if I do not have to. I can hold out to 800 yards without having to adjust the scope, at least for CF. I see no advantage to zeroing closer. Why do it ? With .22 there isn't much difference between a 25 and 50 yard zero, at least with my setup, but I prefer getting farther out with the zero for field use.

Not saying you are not right, but I see no real advantage, and some real-world disadvantages to zeroing short and dialing for distance. Please explain?

Again, it only takes a little bit of wind to affect your zero with your centerfire at 200 and 300 yds.

This is the exact same effect as a .22 at 50+ yds.

It’s all scalable in about a 4 or 5 to 1 ratio.

Whatever you are doing with your .22 is the equivalent of 4 or 5 times that with your centerfire.

A 50yd zero would be the same as a 200 or 250yd zero. This is not the optimal way to zero a centerfire rifle and is not the optimal way to zero a .22.

You want the zero to be as close as possible while maintaining all up corrections for dialing. This has long been the standard for centerfire and is no different with .22.

Basically, centerfire has evolved, but we are still shooting a .22 like they did in the 70’s. It’s not optimal by a long shot.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also, if you see disadvantages of dialing for distance, you are likely on the wrong forum.

That’s all this forum is about when it comes to zero and distance.

 

[IntenseImage]

So based on this I dumped some data into Strelok Pro w my old 50y zero and in the chart of 10-50yds I had dial downs from 23-50yds. With a 30yd zero, I'm only up no matter the distance from 10+ and at 0 stop from 27-41. That should work (if I read into this all correctly)

 

[Dthomas3523]

So based on this I dumped some data into Strelok Pro w my old 50y zero and in the chart of 10-50yds I had dial downs from 23-50yds. With a 30yd zero, I'm only up no matter the distance from 10+ and at 0 stop from 27-41. That should work (if I read into this all correctly)

Yep. No enter a 4 or 5 mph wind and play with 10-20-25yd intervals on your dope chart.

One of them will line up to .1 every 10 20 or 25yds per 4 or 5mph wind.

 

[Snuby642]

"So basically, I’m saying that when utilizing the same logic as centerfire, you should be zero’ing at 25 or 30yds. Nothing else."

So check my math for me please.
.1 mil at 25 yards is .09 inches?
3/32 of an inch?

And on 1/4 moa turrets .0625 or 1/16 of an inch.

Or .03125, 1/32 on a 1/8 turret.


A lot of fine hair splitting going on.
Maybe a sharper knife would help.

My dial down is 1 click at 25 yards with my 1/4 moa turret, 50 yd zero.



Lol

 

[Dthomas3523]

"So basically, I’m saying that when utilizing the same logic as centerfire, you should be zero’ing at 25 or 30yds. Nothing else."

So check my math for me please.
.1 mil at 25 yards is .09 inches?
3/32 of an inch?

And on 1/4 moa turrets .0625 or 1/16 of an inch.

Or .03125, 1/32 on a 1/8 turret.


A lot of fine hair splitting going on.
Maybe a sharper knife would help.

My dial down is 1 click at 25 yards with my 1/4 moa turret, 50 yd zero.



Lol

None of that pertains to anything being discussed.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Your 50yd zero has the same chance as having a windage error the way a 200-250yd zero with a centerfire.

Is it possible to get a 250yd centerfire zero without wind? Or a 50yd .22? Of course.

But we don’t need to take that chance with a .22 just like we don’t need to take that chance with a centerfire.

 

[Snuby642]

Not arguing your theory dtomas.

I can get a wind free zero on rimfire at 50 yards. I also do initial centerfire load testing wind free.

Was just wondering why shooting at very short ranges anyone would want mil turrets?

My wife shoots NRA targets at 50 feet as our shortest discipline, 16 yds.

At 16 yd is a half inch "low" due to scope hight above bore, at 25 yd it is 1/16 " rise" with a 1/4 moa turret.
Perfect zero lies between clicks ammo depending.

I was just suggesting a finer turret incrament for short range shooting.

You can still set is for your 30 yd zero.

And no I don't hate mil scopes.
I think past 100 yds they are better.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Not arguing your theory dtomas.

I can get a wind free zero on rimfire at 50 yards. I also do initial centerfire load testing wind free.

Was just wondering why shooting at very short ranges anyone would want mil turrets?

My wife shoots NRA targets at 50 feet as our shortest discipline, 16 yds.

At 16 yd there is a half inch "rise " due to scope hight above bore, at 25 yd it is 1/16 " rise" with a 1/4 moa turret.
Perfect zero lies between clicks ammo depending.

I was just suggesting a finer turret incrament for short range shooting.

You can still set is for your 30 yd zero.

And no I don't hate mil scopes.
I think past 100 yds they are better.

There’s always a chance of landing between clicks on a zero. Happens quite often even at 100yds in centerfire.

A tenth is a tenth is a tenth of a mil. No matter what range.

But yes, they make 1/8moa and .05mil optics for disciplines that require that kind of fine tuning.

 

[Vodak]

Not arguing your theory dtomas.

I can get a wind free zero on rimfire at 50 yards. I also do initial centerfire load testing wind free.

Was just wondering why shooting at very short ranges anyone would want mil turrets?

My wife shoots NRA targets at 50 feet as our shortest discipline, 16 yds.

At 16 yd there is a half inch "rise " due to scope hight above bore, at 25 yd it is 1/16 " rise" with a 1/4 moa turret.
Perfect zero lies between clicks ammo depending.

I was just suggesting a finer turret incrament for short range shooting.

You can still set is for your 30 yd zero.

And no I don't hate mil scopes.
I think past 100 yds they are better.

The conversation is geared towards people shooting both rimfire and centerfire in a NRL-PRS format. The reason to use Mils is simply for commonality between platforms. You’re absolutely right that you’re giving up some adjustment resolution, but it makes cross training more practical. For other disciplines it probably does make more sense to use finer target adjustments.
Dthomas- I think this was a great post. I’m looking at setting up a new 22 bolt action for myself and this has changed my perspective on how I’m going to go about doing it.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The conversation is geared towards people shooting both rimfire and centerfire in a NRL-PRS format. The reason to use Mils is simply for commonality between platforms. You’re absolutely right that you’re giving up some adjustment resolution, but it makes cross training more practical. For other disciplines it probably does make more sense to use finer target adjustments.
Dthomas- I think this was a great post. I’m looking at setting up a new 22 bolt action for myself and this has changed my perspective on how I’m going to go about doing it.

Thanks. Agreed that this is more of a prs/practical rifle way of looking at it and it may not be for everyone.

Even those of us who take .22 a little more seriously still look at it as “just a .22.”

Yet when you compare it, we are shooting in subsonic velocities and dialing our scopes more/further than centerfire. And doing it off props.

A lot of this is the equivalent of shooting the equivalent of what many would consider jumping into ELR distances and doing it off prs props.

When was the last time you dialed 14+ mils in a prs match? And if so, when was the last time you did it and weren’t prone? (Hypothetical question)

 

[ScottDWallace]

@Dthomas3523 You have the patience of a saint. Plus, I couldn't agree any more with you about what NRL22 matches have become.

 

[A&8's]

Here is a good video on a method to zero without shooting groups at each POA.

Getting off the rifle and back on is a good way to make sure you AND the rifle are zero’d.

I remember when I was in the Army ('88) during BRM, our DS's always said there should be no reason why you can't get your rifle gross zeroed in 3 rounds. 1 shot....hold rifle still, move sights to meet bullet hole. 1 more shot....hold rifle still, move sights to meet bullet hole. 1 final shot to confirm. Of course, this is for a gross zero, but you should be able to get it within 1/2" with a scope.

There’s always a chance of landing between clicks on a zero. Happens quite often even at 100yds in centerfire.

A tenth is a tenth is a tenth of a mil. No matter what range.

But yes, they make 1/8moa and .05mil optics for disciplines that require that kind of fine tuning.

You can adjust your yardage in your calc to have a dead nuts elevation zero, if you fall between clicks on your turrets. You may have to enter your zero range at, say 113y. Which in reality, that is exactly where the next click maybe. But, we always want to use even numbers like 100y.

It's kinda like adjusting your BC or FPS in your calc. You're basically telling the calc, "THIS is what MY gun shoots at xxx yardage. I could care less what "Math" says my gun should shoot."

 

[Dthomas3523]

@Dthomas3523 You have the patience of a saint. Plus, I couldn't agree any more with you about what NRL22 matches have become.

I’ve never been accused of being very patient and understanding. But I’m attempting it for the sake of bringing us out of the 70’s when it comes to .22.

Also yea, I’m done with nrl22 until something changes. I shot 3 or 4 matches this year to get 3 wins to make sure I go to championship. And with it being in bumfuk Tennessee, I’m probably not even gonna bother.

 

[steve123]

On my Anschutz 1827F - Good thing that for whatever reason my 25Y and 50Y are both my zero.

In between can be .2mil down but the targets are so big it doesn't matter most of the time. Well .2 mil hash reticles....
I'll let you guys in on a secret. For the 1/4" NRL22 spinner, don't aim at the normal place, instead aim high up into it, doing so will help you see any correction that needs done because the paint isn't all shot off "up high" on it. Not hard to miss a 1/4" at 35Y in the wind, and if you can see which side you grazed, you can almost ensure the next shot will be an impact.
Plus if you have to engage that 1/4"er more than once, like repeatedly, hitting high won't make it spin so fast, or as much, so you can shoot the next shot quicker.

 

[Dthomas3523]

On my Anschutz 1827F - Good thing that for whatever reason my 25Y and 50Y are both my zero.

In between can be .2mil down but the targets are so big it doesn't matter most of the time. Well .2 mil hash reticles....
I'll let you guys in on a secret. For the 1/4" NRL22 spinner, don't aim at the normal place, instead aim high up into it, doing so will help you see any correction that needs done because the paint isn't all shot off "up high" on it. Not hard to miss a 1/4" at 35Y in the wind, and if you can see which side you grazed, you can almost ensure the next shot will be an impact.
Plus if you have to engage that 1/4"er more than once, like repeatedly, hitting high won't make it spin so fast, or as much, so you can shoot the next shot quicker.

For a while, we started painting the allowed hit area on he different hangers.

Don’t hit the intended target=no point.

We made it so it’s the same as taking a spotting shot at the dirt. Take it if you want, but it’s not going to count.

 

[steve123]

For a while, we started painting the allowed hit area on he different hangers.

Don’t hit the intended target=no point.

We made it so it’s the same as taking a spotting shot at the dirt. Take it if you want, but it’s not going to count.

Ha, you got it made.

Our targets start out painted but they won't get painted till the next month.
Our RO's never made a distinction where the 1/4" was hit, partly I think because the 1/4" spinner is the same width from top to bottom, so just as hard no matter where it was hit.

On the KYL rack I always hope I'm one of the first to shoot at it so I can make a determination of where to correct to.
I tried my FX Impact PCP air rifle after a match on our Sturkis KYL rack at 60Y. I made it to 5 but the steel was all shot up and I had no idea where to correct for the last 3.

In our last 22 match I was 2nd to shoot at the small steel in our long range event, that made it much easier to see exactly where I hit on the steel, ended up with the high score on that stage.

We need paint girls, you know, kind of like those umbrella girls at the sport bike races, heck they can pull double duty, lol.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Ha, you got it made.

Our targets start out painted but they won't get painted till the next month.
Our RO's never made a distinction where the 1/4" was hit, partly I think because the 1/4" spinner is the same width from top to bottom, so just as hard no matter where it was hit.

On the KYL rack I always hope I'm one of the first to shoot at it so I can make a determination of where to correct to.
I tried my FX Impact PCP air rifle after a match on our Sturkis KYL rack at 60Y. I made it to 5 but the steel was all shot up and I had no idea where to correct for the last 3.

In our last 22 match I was 2nd to shoot at the small steel in our long range event, that made it much easier to see exactly where I hit on the steel, ended up with the high score on that stage.

We need paint girls, you know, kind of like those umbrella girls at the sport bike races, heck they can pull double duty, lol.

We stopped not long after out of laziness. And just to screw with people anyway.

You’ll every now and then see someone who shoots the bolt area at the top for an “edge hit” swing motion

 

[beetroot]

When was the last time you dialed 14+ mils in a prs match? And if so, when was the last time you did it and weren’t prone? (Hypothetical question)

I shot a centrefire match for the first time in years a week ago.
Couldn't believe how little I was dialing and how small the wind holds were compared to 22lr.
Making hits at 600 yards in the wind was a piece of cake vs 200 yards with a 22lr.

For a good few years now I've had my most expensive scopes on my 22lr because it's the rifle I shoot the most.
The ability to go out and shoot 100 shots for $10, not have to worry about noise annoying my neighbours and not needing a 600 yard range to make practice worth it, is game changing.
A 22 trainer set up and treated like a centrefire is single best thing you can do to improve your shooting IMO.
Shooting from barricades and weird unsupported positions with a 22lr is just as good training as it is with a centrefire.

The only downside is you can forget what recoil is and how to control it.
Took me a little while to remember how to control recoil with my 260 having shot 22lr exclusively for a year or so.
The first shot was a big surprise!

 

[Deleted member 10043]

The subject of zero range keeps coming up for .22lr and the responses vary wildly. Which I find interesting because its almost universally accepted that a 100yd zero should be used for centerfire. The people who believe something like a 200yd zero is acceptable are in the very small minority (as far as serious precision shooters are concerned).

Yet there is no consensus on .22lr.

Let’s look at the two main reasons why we utilize a 100yd zero for centerfire:

1: environmentals don’t really affect this zero.

2: all adjustments for dope are up


So, let’s now apply this logic to rimfire with an experiment with your ballistic calculator:

Set you zero range to “zero yards” for your rimfire. Then set the wind speed to a 5mph crosswind. Set your target distance to 50yds. My calculator shows a .3 wind correction.

Now, take your centerfire rifle and do the same thing. Zero your zero range and input a 5mph crosswind. Input a 100yd target. I get .1mil correction. Now, keep increasing the distance until you get .3 (the same as 50 for centerfire).

I end up with a whopping 400yds. We would never, ever, ever recommend a 3-400 yd zero with a centerfire rifle.

Yet many of us are comfortable with a 50yd zero that is susceptible to the same wind deflection as 3-400yds in a centerfire.


Now, go back to your calculator with Rimfire and input a 0 zero range and a 50yd target range. This time, input a 10mph crosswind and hit enter.

I get a whopping .6mil !!!!!


Now let’s go back and use the same logic we do with a centerfire:

Low chance of environmentals
All up for dope

Using the 0 zero range, play around with numbers. I have found that 30yds has .2 wind deflection possible at 5mph and only .3 at a 10mph.

While also enabling dope to be all up.

25yds is .1 at 5mph and .3 at 10 mph. And is all up EXCEPT for 30yds which is only .1 down.

Also, before the argument is made that you can’t see adjustments on paper at closer range, I have no idea wtf that comes from. I can see the exact same adjustments as it’s a FFP optic and my adjustments move .1 just like anywhere else and match up to the ruler in my optic.


So basically, I’m saying that when utilizing the same logic as centerfire, you should be zero’ing at 25 or 30yds. Nothing else.

Thank you. Scopes 25-30 yards. Iron sights like 5.

 

[Kane0519]

@Dthomas3523 awesome topic and your logic makes sense. 25yd zero will be subject to environmental factors less than a 50yd zero. That’s true for both wind AND temperature, which can switch winter to summer.
I’m going to switch to a 25yd zero before my next match & find my mph gun based off 25yd instead of 100yd (like my centerfire).

 

[Dthomas3523]

@Dthomas3523 awesome topic and your logic makes sense. 25yd zero will be subject to environmental factors less than a 50yd zero. That’s true for both wind AND temperature, which can switch winter to summer.
I’m going to switch to a 25yd zero before my next match & find my mph gun based off 25yd instead of 100yd (like my centerfire).

Awesome man.

If 25yds doesn’t line up to .1 with any wind, try 10, 15, 20yd increments as well.

One of them should line up well.

 

[Kane0519]

Awesome man.

If 25yds doesn’t line up to .1 with any wind, try 10, 15, 20yd increments as well.

One of them should line up well.

It works well. 4 mph gun with a 25yd zero using Eley Edge produces:
25yd = 0.1
50yd = 0.2
75yd = 0.3
100yd = 0.4
125yd = 0.5
150yd = 0.6
175yd = 0.7
200yd = 0.8

That's almost exactly a 1:4 ratio to my 223rem. It's a really good way of understanding why even just a 2 mph breeze can push me off target at 200yd. Means I've really got to pay attention to the details of what the wind is doing.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It works well. 4 mph gun with a 25yd zero using Eley Edge produces:
25yd = 0.1
50yd = 0.2
75yd = 0.3
100yd = 0.4
125yd = 0.5
150yd = 0.6
175yd = 0.7
200yd = 0.8

That's almost exactly a 1:4 ratio to my 223rem. It's a really good way of understanding why even just a 2 mph breeze can push me off target at 200yd. Means I've really got to pay attention to the details of what the wind is doing.

Yep. People really overlook the scale of centerfire to rimfire.

MD’s also often overlook what is considered acceptable accuracy at distance. If for example 1.5moa is acceptable at 200yds, then a target needs to be at least 3moa to scale properly to a centerfire PRS match.

 

[mosin46]

just my .02,but this is one of the best threads ever. should be a sticky,FS. looking at the numbers,thinking,considering my own knowledge base/experience,i am gonna adopt this 25yd process. but,like one guy said,finding a 25yd rifle range is a problem. setting up to do serious sight in and ammo eval on the "pistol" range is a PITA. but,gotta do it. thanks for these insights. in your opinion, once true zero is obtained,is 50 yd reasonable for ammo eval? indeed i have gotten very conflicting/inconsistent data @ 50yd. esp when trying to find my "best" loading. minute of squirrel head is my ultimate goal.

 

[Dthomas3523]

just my .02,but this is one of the best threads ever. should be a sticky,FS. looking at the numbers,thinking,considering my own knowledge base/experience,i am gonna adopt this 25yd process. but,like one guy said,finding a 25yd rifle range is a problem. setting up to do serious sight in and ammo eval on the "pistol" range is a PITA. but,gotta do it. thanks for these insights. in your opinion, once true zero is obtained,is 50 yd reasonable for ammo eval? indeed i have gotten very conflicting/inconsistent data @ 50yd. esp when trying to find my "best" loading. minute of squirrel head is my ultimate goal.

I’m the worse person to ask about ammo eval. I shoot mainly prs and run a vudoo. Since it’s cut for lapua, I run sk and center x and go.

Unless I was really into testing ammo myself, I’d send rifle to lapua or eley and have them do the testing for me if I ever needed it done.

From what I’ve read, I would defer to @justin amateur for advice on personally testing .22 ammo. He seems to have that nailed down.

 

[usafa77]

After reading this thread, I think a 25yd zero makes sense. The only problem is at the NRL22 matches all the paper scoring is at 50. I'm stuck on the idea of keeping my zero there to get the best result on paper.

 

[Dthomas3523]

After reading this thread, I think a 25yd zero makes sense. The only problem is at the NRL22 matches all the paper scoring is at 50. I'm stuck on the idea of keeping my zero there to get the best result on paper.

I rarely shoot nrl22 (for various reasons) anymore. But I have seen paper at different distances if I recall correctly.

Either way, I wouldn’t base my zero on paper Nrl. It’s only .1 or .2 difference. If you’re Shooting’s good enough to care if you drop the first shot into the 9 ring high or low, you shoot well enough you won’t be losing the match. I’ve got plenty of scores between 460 and 493 all with 25 or 30yd zero.

If your data is trued properly, you won’t have an issue.

 

[usafa77]

good point

 

[Quickoz]

People looked at me wierd for years doing my zero's at 25m with rimfire. I do my wind zeros for F-Class and other CF at 25m aswell so I always have a no wind zero. But I didnt go into it like DT. Nice work.

 

[JordanGriff]

Lots of good info here. I need to study up so I’m ready for my rimx