tracking point, this thing is cool

[7.62_Reaper]

I first saw this thing in a magazine from what I could tell this is a scope weather meter and ballistic computer not to mention a tracking system all in one the system looks like it comes paired with a rifle and I think the whole system fires using an electronic trigger or at least that what I got from the magazine article not sure on the price but im sure I will never be able to afford this system, check it out.

Precision Guided Firearm (PGF) Models | TrackingPoint

that's the web site if it doesn't work just google tracking point and it should come up

 

[Sportin Wood]

Hmmm... looks like a heavy son of a bitch and lots of doo-hickeys that could break or turn for the worse...

 

[Tackleberry]

Unless I can't read the 338 is only effective to 1200yds? It is beyond ELR where most of us need the help. I thought this thing would calculate the 2500 yard stuff. I also agree looks really heavy and lots of stuff to break

 

[GlockandRoll]

Living in Austin and shooting long range often, I was lucky enough to shoot a very early prototype nearly a year and a half ago. I asked them about the range being limited to 1200 yards, and thier reasoning was due to limits of ethical hunting range. They did not indicate if they planed on extending this or not.
The really cool thing about it is that you can be moving, as well as the target, and it tracks and calculates all that with environmental variables taken into account more than 50 times a second, cosign angles, cant, wind, barometric pressure, name it. It even keeps a round count to match the point of impact to bbl life that they programmed in by shooting the bbl's out.

I'd like to see a 7RUM version with extended range tracking and run my AWC ThunderTrap on it.

Here are some pics from that day.

 

[Rob01]

How does it read mid and far wind? Gimmick for people who have too much money and want a shortcut. Learn to shoot and you can do fine with a standard scope and knowledge.

 

[GlockandRoll]

Wind read is up to the shooter, and I guess traction and launch controll in F1 cars are just gimmicky shortcuts for those drivers, as a real driver wouldn't need it?

 

[Rob01]

Wind read is up to the shooter, and I guess traction and launch controll in F1 cars are just gimmicky shortcuts for those drivers, as a real driver wouldn't need it?

Not according to you.

The really cool thing about it is that you can be moving, as well as the target, and it tracks and calculates all that with environmental variables taken into account more than 50 times a second, cosign angles, cant, wind, barometric pressure, name it.

And this isn't traction control. It's a long range rifle shot.

How do you make shots when you are moving and the target and not take into account the mid and far wind? Maybe you are ina hide where you can't feel the wind so the super scope is telling you zero wind for that 1200 yard shot? I stand by expensive gimmick.

 

[hippyshake]

Ethical my ass. These ass clowns posted youtube videos of them gut shooting game animals. That, and come on, if you cant run the numbers for 1200 on a 338lap, you shouldnt own one.

 

[GlockandRoll]

Not according to you.

And this isn't traction control. It's a long range rifle shot.

How do you make shots when you are moving and the target and not take into account the mid and far wind? Maybe you are ina hide where you can't feel the wind so the super scope is telling you zero wind for that 1200 yard shot? I stand by expensive gimmick.

I was pointing out that these are the best drivers in the world, driving the most advanced machines on the planet.. and they benefit from technology as it makes them safer and faster... and about tech and cars, I remember growing up around a bunch of LE and they were all complaining about patrol cars with ABS and air-bags, but couldn't begin to tell you how many officers are alive today because of it.

To answer your question, again, wind is always going to be up to the shooter as it always will be and I dont think there will ever by a shortcut way around that, not even with a kestrel. This system was designed by the guy who designed the firing system for the modern battle tank.. not gimmicky in my opinion.

 

[GlockandRoll]

Ethical my ass. These ass clowns posted youtube videos of them gut shooting game animals. That, and come on, if you cant run the numbers for 1200 on a 338lap, you shouldnt own one.

I've seen HIGHLY experienced marskmen gut-shoot game inside 300 yards on a powerline where the wind was calm.

Shoot one, and see what you can do with it, and you may have a more favorable opinion of it. Or not, either way I like it and would appreciate it if I were trying to take down really big game on a hunt that I spent a small fortune going on.
Or some other situation where a lot was on the line, financially or even more dire.

But this is about different perspectives.
From my perspective, as someone who's been in the high-tech industry for 15 years, I dig it.

I'm also a licensed pilot, and is like a full modern glass panel with weather radar and a moving map GPS with slaved HSI... it doesnt make me any less of a pilot.. it makes me more as I get to arive safely and enjoy the flight.
Which was why I started flying to begin with.

 

[308Hunter]

Just think of all the ammo you could reload for just a quarter of the asking price!

 

[GlockandRoll]

Yep, i agree.. that has to be also factored into the ROI for this as well, because load development takes time. That's something as a cloud solutions architect that travels all the time, with three little kids, and 2 side businesses I just don't have a lot of these days. My dad and I are considering one just for the chance to do some big game hunting and not risk a miss.

 

[Rob01]

I was pointing out that these are the best drivers in the world, driving the most advanced machines on the planet.. and they benefit from technology as it makes them safer and faster... and about tech and cars, I remember growing up around a bunch of LE and they were all complaining about patrol cars with ABS and air-bags, but couldn't begin to tell you how many officers are alive today because of it.

To answer your question, again, wind is always going to be up to the shooter as it always will be and I dont think there will ever by a shortcut way around that, not even with a kestrel. This system was designed by the guy who designed the firing system for the modern battle tank.. not gimmicky in my opinion.

To keep on track and not bring car arguments into it, technology is one thing but saying this does what you say and then saying the shooter has to take the wind into effect means that this thing does nothing more than a regular scope if the shooter doesn't add in the wind. Wind is what makes hits and misses at long range.

Like any other new high tech gadgetry people will swoon over it because people love new shiny stuff. That is until people see it's down sides. Cost being one of them.

 

[sjb269]

Do I see 8 CR123 batteries? This thing is a joke?

 

[GlockandRoll]

To keep on track and not bring car arguments into it, technology is one thing but saying this does what you say and then saying the shooter has to take the wind into effect means that this thing does nothing more than a regular scope if the shooter doesn't add in the wind. Wind is what makes hits and misses at long range.

Like any other new high tech gadgetry people will swoon over it because people love new shiny stuff. That is until people see it's down sides. Cost being one of them.

The shooter reads the wind, it does take that into effect.
There's no reliable way to automatically read the wind unless you are standing at the target with a wind-meter, as well as one half way and one by you; at least not that I know of.

Once you've guesstimated the wind correctly, it does all the math for you; pressure, density altitude, earths rotation, cant/down angle, etc. I'm a pretty good shot off a bag in 5-7mph wind at a distance, but if it were life and death, or the chance for a trophy of a lifetime, I don't want to miss. With this, I'm really not sure how you could. It even lets you know if the scope is off it's zero and auto corrects and takes cold-bore into account, as well as bbl life.

There's nothing like it out there.

 

[GlockandRoll]

Do I see 8 CR123 batteries? This thing is a joke?

That was an early prototype, from more than a year and a half ago.

 

[Rob01]

The shooter reads the wind, it does take that into effect.
There's no reliable way to automatically read the wind unless you are standing at the target with a wind-meter, as well as one half way and one by you; at least not that I know of.

Once you've guesstimated the wind correctly, it does all the math for you; pressure, density altitude, earths rotation, cant/down angle, etc. I'm a pretty good shot off a bag in 5-7mph wind at a distance, but if it were life and death, or the chance for a trophy of a lifetime, I don't want to miss. With this, I'm really not sure how you could. It even lets you know if the scope is off it's zero and auto corrects and takes cold-bore into account, as well as bbl life.

There's nothing like it out there.

I am sure they will sell some to people who don't know any better or a rich PD with the whole "life on the line" sales strategy but I would be very surprised if you see these around in a few years. I am all for technology but I have also been around this game long enough to see a product for what it is.

 

[BoilerUP]

I'm also a licensed pilot, and is like a full modern glass panel with weather radar and a moving map GPS with slaved HSI... it doesnt make me any less of a pilot.. it makes me more as I get to arive safely and enjoy the flight.
Which was why I started flying to begin with.

The buyer of this rifle is more like the typical new Cirrus SR22 owner: expecting the large hi-res displays with LPV, SynViz, terrain, Skywatch, XM weather, autopilot and ultimately parachute to make up for their utter lack of situational awareness, skill and experience.

 

[hippyshake]

I've seen HIGHLY experienced marskmen gut-shoot game inside 300 yards on a powerline where the wind was calm.

Shoot one, and see what you can do with it, and you may have a more favorable opinion of it. Or not, either way I like it and would appreciate it if I were trying to take down really big game on a hunt that I spent a small fortune going on.
Or some other situation where a lot was on the line, financially or even more dire.

But this is about different perspectives.
From my perspective, as someone who's been in the high-tech industry for 15 years, I dig it.

I'm also a licensed pilot, and is like a full modern glass panel with weather radar and a moving map GPS with slaved HSI... it doesnt make me any less of a pilot.. it makes me more as I get to arive safely and enjoy the flight.
Which was why I started flying to begin with.

Highly experienced marksman gut shooting at 300? They obviously arent as highly skilled as highly experienced.

 

[tolnep]

me, i love technology. this is interesting but if it cant do wind its a bit too expensive.

interesting that it was designed by a guy that did the tank targeting system. i had a guy tell me a day or two ago, and i dont know if its true, that that system could actually deal with wind and heat mirage and so forth somehow due to its laser targeting system. so if that guy was involved in the tank system and that system really can deal with wind and other similar variables then this thing should too.

what it apparently does is lock on to the target and fire when the lock is matched and do the ballistics calcs for the bullet flight based on distance, atmospheric pressure and bullet data.

cool, but it still needs to do the wind. until it does it not the wizard weapon that would impress me.

and to those who say if you cant do it without all the gimmickry, im sure there are some old timers that will tell you you need need to shoot a sharps black powder or a civil war whitworth sniper rifle, all the modern stuff is too easy.

 

[GlockandRoll]

Highly experienced marksman gut shooting at 300? They obviously arent as highly skilled as highly experienced.

yes, I wont name any names but things happen, nobody is perfect.
We've all seen it... dont be an ass.

 

[GlockandRoll]

me, i love technology. this is interesting but if it cant do wind its a bit too expensive.

interesting that it was designed by a guy that did the tank targeting system. i had a guy tell me a day or two ago, and i dont know if its true, that that system could actually deal with wind and heat mirage and so forth somehow due to its laser targeting system. so if that guy was involved in the tank system and that system really can deal with wind and other similar variables then this thing should too.

what it apparently does is lock on to the target and fire when the lock is matched and do the ballistics calcs for the bullet flight based on distance, atmospheric pressure and bullet data.

cool, but it still needs to do the wind. until it does it not the wizard weapon that would impress me.

and to those who say if you cant do it without all the gimmickry, im sure there are some old timers that will tell you you need need to shoot a sharps black powder or a civil war whitworth sniper rifle, all the modern stuff is too easy.

It takes the wind into consideration, but there's no way to measure it at a distance that I know of.

The company was founded by John McHale it talks briefly about the tank stuff here:
John McHale, Chairman | TrackingPoint

 

[GlockandRoll]

The buyer of this rifle is more like the typical new Cirrus SR22 owner: expecting the large hi-res displays with LPV, SynViz, terrain, Skywatch, XM weather, autopilot and ultimately parachute to make up for their utter lack of situational awareness, skill and experience.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the Cirrus argument, I've got a friend with one, but if he can feel safer flying - that's fine with me.
If he can feel safer making a long shot - likewise - I am fine with that as well.

 

[GlockandRoll]

I am sure they will sell some to people who don't know any better or a rich PD with the whole "life on the line" sales strategy but I would be very surprised if you see these around in a few years. I am all for technology but I have also been around this game long enough to see a product for what it is.

I'll take that bet - if you want to wager whether they will be in business in a few years.
I think this is just the beginning of something really interesting.

 

[Pat M]

Technology ,,,,, useless. I'm selling my 1500yd laser rangefinder/bino and going back to using my thumb and converging lens optic rangefinder.

 

[GlockandRoll]

Technology ,,,,, useless. I'm selling my 1500yd laser rangefinder/bino and going back to using my thumb and converging lens optic rangefinder.

And that will always be cool. It's a skill to fall back on.
I'm glad I learned how to do it manually, the hard way, with .25MOA knobs and cheap glass and a salvage bolt action and factory ammo

 

[hippyshake]

yes, I wont name any names but things happen, nobody is perfect.
We've all seen it... dont be an ass.

So im being an ass by not singing their praises for being idiots? They (im pretty convinced it was you now) took a questionable shot and violated the un written rule of ethically taking game. Its a douchebag thing to do, taking a bad shot on an animal like that. If you dont know you can hit vitals, dont pull the trigger.

 

[Rob01]

I'll take that bet - if you want to wager whether they will be in business in a few years.
I think this is just the beginning of something really interesting.

Never mentioned a bet. Not betting anything as I have no connection to this at all and can give a damn if it succeeds or doesn't but just giving an opinion on what I am seeing and seen before. The sales pitch reeks of going after the people who don't know any better but I guess the quote associated to PT Barnum was right so I bet they might just sell a ton.

And Pat it has nothing to do with technological advancements. But what they are in response to the job at hand. I use LRF and ballistic programs. I like technology.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

HAVING USED IT, I will say that I believe the technology has merit. However it is in it's infancy. It has a way to go before it's ready for prime time (military use).

I don't think it really has a place in LE work since engagement ranges make wind and elevation holds minimal.

What I like about the system is it's FAST to lase a target and get a firing solution. What I don't like about it is that I can't change the wind hold on the fly (or there was not apparent way to do it). Now you have to also understand, that a lot of what "I" didn't like about the system was just a software feature. It could be change rather easily and they mentioned that they had a "competition" version of the software in the works.

There are people who will be absolutely against this because they feel it removes some of the skill from the craft. However you could say the same for the change from irons to optics or even from black to smokeless powder. Shooters are always looking for that "edge". You can hate it all you like, but I guarantee in ten years (or less) you are going to see optics like these in the hands of Military Snipers.

 

[GlockandRoll]

HAVING USED IT, I will say that I believe the technology has merit. However it is in it's infancy. It has a way to go before it's ready for prime time (military use).

I don't think it really has a place in LE work since engagement ranges make wind and elevation holds minimal.

What I like about the system is it's FAST to lase a target and get a firing solution. What I don't like about it is that I can't change the wind hold on the fly (or there was not apparent way to do it). Now you have to also understand, that a lot of what "I" didn't like about the system was just a software feature. It could be change rather easily and they mentioned that they had a "competition" version of the software in the works.

There are people who will be absolutely against this because they feel it removes some of the skill from the craft. However you could say the same for the change from irons to optics or even from black to smokeless powder. Shooters are always looking for that "edge". You can hate it all you like, but I guarantee in ten years (or less) you are going to see optics like these in the hands of Military Snipers.

I agree completely.. however you can change the wind (quickly I believe) in advanced mode.
http://tracking-point.com/sites/default/files/Tracking-Point-Owners-Manual.pdf

Also, in regards to the price, as i understand it they do have a low-cost model coming out that's not on a Surgeon in an AX chassis, but a stock Remington.

 

[TahoeRider]

I could see them selling quite a few if/when they get the price down to about $10k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ptxw_R7NQg

 

[GlockandRoll]

Rumor has it they are introducing a low cost line not based on a surgeon in an AX chassis, but a remmy milspec 5R for well under $10K

 

[Sugarbug]

So, what you're saying is that by learning to shoot, make wind calls, and know what the f*** you're doing, you can save thousands of dollars?

 

[softcock]

So, what you're saying is that by learning to shoot, make wind calls, and know what the f*** you're doing, you can save thousands of dollars?

-
on your statement, Its a little more then just saving Dollars with using applied shooting skills and knowledge acquired over years with thousands of rounds fired .
And I LIKE shooting technology . I LOVE my high dollar LRF & I Love my top of the line expensive & precision shooting optics & I Love my precision Rifle built on top quality machining equipment by the hands of Good Smith .

( THIS is just my thought ). .
You worked years & thousands of rounds to build the skills . Your Eyes, Your Brain & Your Finger that is making the call and pulling the trigger .
It 'Plain & simple' boils-down with a lot of shooters that it's more of uneasiness or bad gut feeling of turning all that you have worked to accomplish and put it into the hands of an electronic unit that's perched on top you Rig . That is going to be hard bridge to cross & sell to experienced shooters .
It's also looked at as just another Shooters advertisement of being some sort of security blanket or extra insurance to make you ' feel better ' about taking that ELR shot & relieving you of the responsibility of taking the gamble & pull the trigger on a Range that is normally and in good judgment, out of your comfort range .

And I don't see it selling or ' Accepted ' unless this thing has a proven track record of solid performance to gain trust over what already took a shooter years of hard work & Big thousands of dollars to do.
.

 

[GlockandRoll]

So, what you're saying is that by learning to shoot, make wind calls, and know what the f*** you're doing, you can save thousands of dollars?

No, a human could never do what this can do, rapidly engage moving targets and unknown distances, even if you are moving, with changing angles.
Not ideal for sniping/hunting, but I just want to make sure we are not looking at this as just an expensive watch or super-car, it's something totally different. The tech allows you to do things that a human cant calculate, at least not instantly, several times a second.

 

[RTK]

Like I said before, many states, or at least the ones I hunt in will not allow any electronic assisted scope devices. This particular weapon can NOT be used for hunting where I hunt.
Other than that it is VERY cool. I bet it's primary market will be for the military, just wait util they incorporate some sorta laser wind compensation.....................

 

[GlockandRoll]

Sorry to hear about that... where do you life?
We shoot animals from helicopters using suppressors here.

 

[RTK]

Sorry to hear about that... where do you life?
We shoot animals from helicopters using suppressors here.

Now that is just not fair

 

[E. Bryant]

The shooter reads the wind, it does take that into effect.
There's no reliable way to automatically read the wind unless you are standing at the target with a wind-meter, as well as one half way and one by you; at least not that I know of.

The Trackingpoint system does not currently read the wind, but given advancements in wind remote sensing using LIDAR in the wind turbine field, I imagine that such capability isn't far away for firearms. Being able to "paint" a 3D image of the wind between the muzzle and the target would completely blow-away any arguments about the superiority of human wind-calling.

Broken down into its most basic elements, we're talking about a source of laser energy, a multi-pixel receiver to measure the reflected energy of said laser, and a buttload of computational horsepower to figure out what the data means; each core piece of this technology is readily available in existing consumer products. It'd be monumentally stupid to make a bet against this; about the only thing that will prevent this from becoming commonplace would be legislation against civilian ownership.

 

[Delta4-3]

They used to make a laser guided .50BMG round. There, end of discussion. The army decided against adoption though for several reasons.