I'm not getting this guy. Supposedly, less than 250,000 souls are actively engaged in steel production, but millions more depend upon a cheap supply of it for various purposes. Smart money jumped in panicked shock yesterday on Wall Street. Does he really think that we can go back to a 1950s model of macroeconomic balance between production and consumption?
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Trump's Steel and Aluminum Tariff Proposal
- Thread starter Veer_G
- Start date
He knows without the capability to produce metals our nation is weaker.
Pandering to the base. Blue collar steel (and aluminum?) workers in the rust belt- and those that identify with them. Apparently, the rest of us are not supposed to know that tariffs make things more expensive here in the good ol us of a...
The cost of Liberty. No one ever said it would be cheap.
That's something that we could develop through gradual elevation of tariffs and incentives to industry. This was jamming on the brakes knowingly with a passenger in the front seat and no seat belt.
The more that the pundits and the left and the Harvard economists 'melt down' over the idea of Tariff's, the more I think that maybe there is something good about them.
Remember, we voted in someone who will disrupt the status quo... drain the swamp. Put this in context of upcoming SCOTUS decision that may well make all states 'Right to Work." We get a more competitive labor market (based on market factors not on wages being used to funnel tens of billions into big labor/progressive politics) and a cleaner playing field for 'made in America.'
While cutting rug out of subsidized and slave-labor Asian steel.... I don't like tariff's in concept. As some pundit said yesterday... tariff's are taxes and I don't like taxes. But I'm open to the idea of rocking the boat.
I'm not an economist, however. But when a bunch of Keynsian commies start crapping their communal diapers... I suddenly want to give something a chance!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Remember, we voted in someone who will disrupt the status quo... drain the swamp. Put this in context of upcoming SCOTUS decision that may well make all states 'Right to Work." We get a more competitive labor market (based on market factors not on wages being used to funnel tens of billions into big labor/progressive politics) and a cleaner playing field for 'made in America.'
While cutting rug out of subsidized and slave-labor Asian steel.... I don't like tariff's in concept. As some pundit said yesterday... tariff's are taxes and I don't like taxes. But I'm open to the idea of rocking the boat.
I'm not an economist, however. But when a bunch of Keynsian commies start crapping their communal diapers... I suddenly want to give something a chance!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Do you really think a Country that has a massive surplus of trade is going to start a trade war with the Country giving them that surplus?
I have a lot of experience in international trade, 30 years worth, on a grand scale. Its a long conversation and a boring one for the average non involved person. I will say this, there has been a trade war going on since the 80's, we have not joined the battle until yesterday, we are losing badly. I been all over asia, I do business all over the world, we have been put at a disadvantage by DC. I firmly believe DC (the two parties) have sold us out for donations through various foundations and charities. The sold us out for a literal few pieces of silver. Hope Trump changes that, the top 5 greatest enemies are Canada, China, Mexico, Europe, Middle East, pretty much in this order
You will hear the hand wringers over the next week worrying about a trade war, I remind you that these same people are the ones that signed all these agreements that put us in a permanent losing position. Do not listen to them they have been proven wrong and are globalists that just got their apple cart turned over.
You will hear the hand wringers over the next week worrying about a trade war, I remind you that these same people are the ones that signed all these agreements that put us in a permanent losing position. Do not listen to them they have been proven wrong and are globalists that just got their apple cart turned over.
I'm in full agreement.
Production was sold out.
China declared economic war on us decades ago.
After being around what is left in the great lakes region it is obvious.
R
Well anytime i can watch Paul Krugman squirm im in, However, it would be better if we went to the people buying Chinese Steel and persuaded them to by ours in some other way. Tariffs stink of weakness.
Why is it we should expect to pay more?
We buy a product overseas and have to boat it over here instead of getting it locally. Shipping is free?
Sure China doesnt have to abide by the enviro laws we do and they use slave labor so they can produce cheaper.....so you support that?
What money I pay at the market I should save in taxes not having to pay money to jobless people sitting on the couch.
The rest of the world is crying this will cost them jobs.
Where do you think those jobs will now be?
We have had every country in the world eating a free lunch as a means to lower our place in the world.
I hope this signals the end of that.
Im hoping soon I will one day be able to buy a fridge that will be as useful as the 60 year old Coldspot in my inlaws garage.
We buy a product overseas and have to boat it over here instead of getting it locally. Shipping is free?
Sure China doesnt have to abide by the enviro laws we do and they use slave labor so they can produce cheaper.....so you support that?
What money I pay at the market I should save in taxes not having to pay money to jobless people sitting on the couch.
The rest of the world is crying this will cost them jobs.
Where do you think those jobs will now be?
We have had every country in the world eating a free lunch as a means to lower our place in the world.
I hope this signals the end of that.
Im hoping soon I will one day be able to buy a fridge that will be as useful as the 60 year old Coldspot in my inlaws garage.
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Not if the govt on the other side is subsidizing their markets or signing on to agreements that they have no intent to abide by while we saddle our manufacturers with costs that make us uncompetitive.
I do not support that. Not one bit. But I also dont beleive that starting a trade war is in our best interest either. We could argue for days that there has been an ongoing trade war for decades, in many ways i agree. But if you want to beat them you have to find a way to make a competitive product at a competitive price. Private industry can make that choice for themselves, but any government funded infrastructure project (buildings, roads, bridges, military whatever) should absolutely use US Steel. They should all be Berry Compliant. thats part of getting the contract. but If Wells Fargo wants to build a new building and import Chinese Steel to do it, they should be allowed to do it. We know that not only is it cheaper, but its weaker as well. why not change the building code standards and force that steel out of the market by its own inferior quality instead? im just saying there are other ways to do this without taking the easy way out.
well we should just ban all of said countries products then instead of imposing tariffs we know that.
In order to be competitive we need to cut taxes (done) and cut regulation.
Some regulation I like.
I dont want industries pumping waste into the waterways.
That regulation costs money.
China doesnt give a shit and pumps waste into the air and water.
If we wont have it here than we shouldnt have it in China.
Tax them the equal cost to our businesses - a carbon credit per se.
AMEN. To all those who think prices are going to go up because of this, the US Steel market has been struggling to stay afloat and compete. What happens when we are no longer producing raw materials? We become dependent on China. What happens when we become dependent? Price is going to skyrocket if we don't stop the shit now.
When we are at a fight to the death war with China will they still sell us steel to build weapons?
They make things made in other countries, more expensive in this country, in an attempt to level the playing field. When our factories must compete with factories world wide with almost free labor{think wages taxes and benefits}. How do you think China has taken over Amazon and Ebay. Their labor is cheap, they can make it and ship it around the world for less than we can make it.
I happen to be a metal fabricator and this is the absolutely the dumbest thing he could have done. I am a supporter of Trump but he has gone off the rails on this issue. It will hut the consumer and small businesses that use steel and aluminum. DUMB move Mr. President! I would have expected better from you!
I don't think so, if you consider the reason we do most of the consuming. IMO, it was the loss of tariffs that pushed manufacturing out of this country, because we could not compete with labor and production prices Hencho En Mexico after NAFTA. Granted I am sure labor is a small part of why production in china, india, and mexico is cheaper.
No it would no be better. Speaking as a guy who has bought a lot of aluminum in my day, your suppliers are always slipping shit aluminum from Brazil and China. We used to hate that crap because often though it met spec ie 6061-T6 or 7075 often their were hard inclusions that would break cutting tools. We would call and get into a pissing match with the supplier, delay the job we had scheduled because we did not have suitable material, it sucked. Sometimes if we really needed the parts we had to just suck it up and run a sub-optimal (higher cost) process.... A so a fucking supplier could make a good margin sticking some Brazilian or Chinese shit up our ass.
That shit should have a 500% tarriff on it.
There is already a war and we have been on the losing end of it for years. How is it fair for China to tax the shit out of our stuff and us not tax theirs? US steel is better than Chinese steel any day. It's like saying we need illegal migrant workers to keep the price of food low and that citizens would not do the work. A bunch of BS.
Softwood Lumber Agreement. Or lack thereof. If things keep up, and ya'll's government continue to blather about how our lumber industry is 'subsidized' by the Canuckian government.... then I guess what they're really saying is you ALL would prefer to pay $89.95 for each 8' 2X4.
Utility Grade. Hockey-stick style, with 45% wane.
And if you want the J-Grade, well..... you'll just have to pay MORE than what the Japanese are not only willing,,, but begging to pay! I'm sure you don't want to see THOSE prices.
Or, I guess.... your other option is to build your homes out of steel studs instead. Oh wait....
There's always concrete then. and you can use bamboo instead of steel re-bar. Oh wait....
Yeah, 15 years ago, I was massively and directly affected by the so-called "Soft Wood Lumber Agreement" and this shit still sucks. But at the same time, other than your 'industry leaders'.... are you all sure you really want what you're asking for? Do you REALLY think that you're not paying enough for the items that you're shopping for? We, as a Country, do have trees. We have lots of trees. (see what I did there?) We have trees to spare, industry to protect, and citizens to employ. So we make and sell a product.
And you people say that we're not charging enough for a product, so we should be penalized by charging you all more? In What Universe.....?
Utility Grade. Hockey-stick style, with 45% wane.
And if you want the J-Grade, well..... you'll just have to pay MORE than what the Japanese are not only willing,,, but begging to pay! I'm sure you don't want to see THOSE prices.
Or, I guess.... your other option is to build your homes out of steel studs instead. Oh wait....
There's always concrete then. and you can use bamboo instead of steel re-bar. Oh wait....
Yeah, 15 years ago, I was massively and directly affected by the so-called "Soft Wood Lumber Agreement" and this shit still sucks. But at the same time, other than your 'industry leaders'.... are you all sure you really want what you're asking for? Do you REALLY think that you're not paying enough for the items that you're shopping for? We, as a Country, do have trees. We have lots of trees. (see what I did there?) We have trees to spare, industry to protect, and citizens to employ. So we make and sell a product.
And you people say that we're not charging enough for a product, so we should be penalized by charging you all more? In What Universe.....?
No two situations are the same. What is your solution? Continue taking it up the ass from China until they push all of our producers out of business, which would mean they can charge whatever they want, and limit our military resources? Yeah, it's going to sting in the short term, but any thinker can see its long term strategy.
The question being, can we outlast the damage done to small and medium size businesses, as is the case with @Jeffd who then take it up the ass for the team as they pay unsustainable material costs to US suppliers. It's all good in the 'hood until it's time to run to the corner for more 40s and everybody's all T Rex trying to find their pockets.
We are the third largest steel producer in the world. We consume most of our own steel. Imports represent a small percentage of US steel consumption (17%). China isn't even on the top 10 list of countries where we import steel from; this tarrif isn't going to hurt China in the slightest.
Even if you replaced the 17% of steel that comes from outside the country with American steel, you're still going to lose jobs.
The hockey sticks I see at Home Depot are usually marked Irving.
The nicest lumber I ever saw, looked sanded 4 sides, was from Czechoslovakia. The builder was using it on my house project. It should have been a clue to me the guy wasn't going to finish the contract. I do have some beautiful studs hidden by rock and plaster in my walls though.
I get where you are going STN.
I would hope/think our trade policies would be negotiated for the benefit of our jobs as well.
R
I doubt this goes very far.
As its sets in that "Holy shit he is really going to do it!" Countries will want to talk.
If we have a trade rep with any balls he is going to ask about onerous trade regulations our companies must swallow to work in their world such as 51% in country ownership, restricting goods, and allowing business practices, worker safety abuses we do not allow here.
If OSHA is good for us than it should be applicable to them.
Otherwise we are just offshoring abuse and pollution.
These standards are for the good of the worker not at the expense of their job by allowing others to die in their place.
As its sets in that "Holy shit he is really going to do it!" Countries will want to talk.
If we have a trade rep with any balls he is going to ask about onerous trade regulations our companies must swallow to work in their world such as 51% in country ownership, restricting goods, and allowing business practices, worker safety abuses we do not allow here.
If OSHA is good for us than it should be applicable to them.
Otherwise we are just offshoring abuse and pollution.
These standards are for the good of the worker not at the expense of their job by allowing others to die in their place.
I understand you work leather.
Do you use Herman Oak or stuff from Mexico that smells like piss?
I agree there will be some initial pain from this as our manufacturing gets up to a capacity to replace what was lost but the quality of goods will make up for the expense.
When I worked construction the welder always looked bummed out when we had a steel supplier send plate from Russia or China vs US or Canada. When he would cut the overseas plate sparks would be flying and holes opening. He wasn't a happy Italian man and he spoke harshly in his native tongue.
Sean the Nailer.......when I was a young boy visiting Gramma on Cape Breton Island, NS the steel mill was the great employer. My father and uncles worked there making steel or learned trades like plumbing and electrical to keep the plant running.
Now it's gone and like the rest of the maritimes people work for whatever happens to be in season than collect for the rest of the year.
Breaking out the good two-ply tissues, huh?
This year marks the 20th year that I have been in the structural steel fabrication industry, so this decision will have some form of impact on my livelihood. Obviously, I'm looking at this from my point of view, but it affect nearly every major industry. Raise the price of raw materials and the price of manufactured items will raise in kind. I'm all "Ra Ra USA" as much as the next guy and I'm all for putting more American's back to work and I'm all for individuals and companies getting more money in their pockets......but at what cost? Will the end justify the means?
If the price of steel jumps up in my industry to the point where steel is not competitive against the other major construction medium (concrete), what good has this done? I could literally see the price of steel jumping, mills hiring more people, the increase cost then depressing the market even further than it currently is, and steel prices eventually having to fall in order to stay viable/competitive. Nucor (the major steel mill here in the US) has been raising prices steadily for about 3-4 months because of this 232 thing that Trump recently decided on. Nucor is the tail that wags the dog in terms of steel pricing here in the US. I have ZERO love for Nucor because they have a history of manipulating the cost of steel for no known reason.....just because they can. I fully understand that you raise your price as the supply dwindles, but reacting too strongly to these tariffs will only serve to further depress an already shaky construction market.
This strikes me as a "not seeing the forest for the trees" moment for President Trump. Sure, the steel mills will be able to employ more people and get better margins on their products, but if that depresses the market, the companies "down stream" from your product will have to cut jobs/wages. I'm just a dumb ironworker, but I wonder if this whole tariff thing is being done to secure some type allegiance of voting block in future elections.
If the price of steel jumps up in my industry to the point where steel is not competitive against the other major construction medium (concrete), what good has this done? I could literally see the price of steel jumping, mills hiring more people, the increase cost then depressing the market even further than it currently is, and steel prices eventually having to fall in order to stay viable/competitive. Nucor (the major steel mill here in the US) has been raising prices steadily for about 3-4 months because of this 232 thing that Trump recently decided on. Nucor is the tail that wags the dog in terms of steel pricing here in the US. I have ZERO love for Nucor because they have a history of manipulating the cost of steel for no known reason.....just because they can. I fully understand that you raise your price as the supply dwindles, but reacting too strongly to these tariffs will only serve to further depress an already shaky construction market.
This strikes me as a "not seeing the forest for the trees" moment for President Trump. Sure, the steel mills will be able to employ more people and get better margins on their products, but if that depresses the market, the companies "down stream" from your product will have to cut jobs/wages. I'm just a dumb ironworker, but I wonder if this whole tariff thing is being done to secure some type allegiance of voting block in future elections.
I think your figure of 17% is not correct. I think it is closer to 30%. I could be wrong, but I think 27%-30% is more like it.
I believe you are absolutely correct about the impact on China (as far as their domestic steel production goes). Of the steel we import, China is in the single digits percentage-wise.
This ^^^.
Perhaps it doesn't make the news, but if you look around, the country is quietly getting on a war footing...and that's all I'm going to say about it.
That kind of is the nature of what just about every politician says and does.
