Try unsupported prone.

[George63]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

OK - I tried 2 varieties of unsupported prone when I went to the range, one of them seemed to have some potential - it was similar to a bipod prone with the body in line with the rifle, but a very low position - the butt was on the ground, the forearm resting on top of the upturned fist of the support arm - if there was no cover to be had and you needed to take a quick shot while making the smallest possible target - this could have merit, but of course, all that is a stretch

I will say this: I feel it is a complete crock of shit that there would be any value in trying to teach a new shooter either of the varieties that I tried

now maybe sterling has something else to try, but I asked 4 times on this thread and he ignored that and just repeatedly spewed the same line as his first post

I would say - it is time to put a fork in this whole concept

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

I don't know where you are in your development, but, from your last post I sense that you may not have had any basic marksmanship training which included instruction about building the position, is that right? In other words, you bought a rifle, stuck a bipod on it and started from there. At any rate, I don't like your language, tone, or attitude and thus I have no interest in taking the time to give you a lesson. Oh, I do agree with you that it would be a crock to teach anyone the varieties you tried as what you tried is not the way to go about it. The way to go about it is to start by simply placing the non firing hand under the forend with elbow as close to directly under the rifle as possible. The hand should form a V between thumb and index finger and fingers should be naturally curled with only enough pressure on the forend to control the rifle. You do not want to steer the rifle with the non firing hand and too much pressure may induce you to unconsciously steer. The next thing is to bring the butt stock to a vertical and erect head, thereafter pushing the butt into the pocket formed in the shoulder. From here you can rest the cheek on the stock for a muscularly relaxed stock weld, which should give you a proper eyeball/eyepiece relationship it the stock's comb height allows for it. Next, NPA is adjusted by moving the belt buckle and perhaps the non firing hand on the forend. At this point the elbow of the firing hand should be allowed to fall where natural. In this position you will not be straight behind the rifle and attempting to do so will bring about extreme muscular tension, since the non firing elbow will no longer provide bone support. With this exercise you will recognize what measure of refinement or adjustment of elbow's, non firing hand, grip, stock weld and butt to shoulder will make you more comfortable; and, eventually, when you can hold unsupported wobble free with muscular relaxation you will have grasped the whole idea of my original post, which is the benefit of making the most out of bone no matter what artificial support is enjoined. You will also understand how to integrate bone and artificial support so as to not loose one or the other. That's to say, if you have both bone and artificial support working in harmony you should be able to relax into the position without any need to muscle the rifle to maintain aim. Well, what do you know, I did give you a lesson.

 

[lash]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

This thread is another one that gets tagged and saved in my favorites. As someone new to long range rifle shooting, this has been particularly informative and educational.

Until I can find the extra money and time to take some formal classes from one or more of the excellent instructors out there, I will continue to study what the very experienced members here have to offer (filtering out some of the obvious dross).
I'm not new to shooting and my Father taught me the basics of marksmanship well. These basics have served me well, no matter if I am shooting IDPA, Steel, target pistol, or handgun hunting in Michigan or Florida. I spent many happy hours competing with my brother with our inexpensive .22 bolts guns in the back yard.

The basics and a continuing desire to learn and improve in all areas of my life have served me well so far.

Anyway, I do appreciate all the knowledge that you here willingly pass on. This thread is the very reason someone like myself spends (way too many) hours here, when I should probabl;y be doing more productive things with my time.

OK, enough fawning and crap and on to some shooting already...

 

[George63]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. The way to go about it is to start by simply placing the non firing hand under the forend with elbow as close to directly under the rifle as possible. The hand should form a V between thumb and index finger and fingers should be naturally curled with only enough pressure on the forend to control the rifle. You do not want to steer the rifle with the non firing hand and too much pressure may induce you to unconsciously steer. The next thing is to bring the butt stock to a vertical and erect head, thereafter pushing the butt into the pocket formed in the shoulder. From here you can rest the cheek on the stock for a muscularly relaxed stock weld, which should give you a proper eyeball/eyepiece relationship it the stock's comb height allows for it. Next, NPA is adjusted by moving the belt buckle and perhaps the non firing hand on the forend. At this point the elbow of the firing hand should be allowed to fall where natural. In this position you will not be straight behind the rifle and attempting to do so will bring about extreme muscular tension, since the non firing elbow will no longer provide bone support. With this exercise you will recognize what measure of refinement or adjustment of elbow's, non firing hand, grip, stock weld and butt to shoulder will make you more comfortable; and, eventually, when you can hold unsupported wobble free with muscular relaxation you will have grasped the whole idea of my original post,

</div></div>

OK, now it got somewhere - basically you are describing all the hold factors of sling/ prone without using the sling

but how is muscular relaxation in the support arm possible without the sling?
the rifle will drop to the ground

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

The position you described with the butt of the rifle touching the ground and your fist under the forearm is called the Hawkins Position and was used as a way to get low, like shooting from the crest of a small rise.

This was the position taught before people starting using the roll over prone position with the rifle sideways.

The Hawkins Position was a favorite for Marines, as the M40A1 didn't have the ability to use a bipod, it was either Ruck, Homemade Tripod, or Unsupported... so the Hawkins was a good way to drop on your rifle and get a shot off.

For bone support without muscle tension you need to position the forearm (your arm) straight up and down, and directly under the rifle. Basically line the elbow up under the stock. This eliminates the muscular tension.

In the video with Jacob he speaks on this regarding the kneeling position, but it applies to other positions. Note the position of the support elbow.

 

[sinister]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

What is old is new again. The Hawkins position originated with the British when our granddads were kids.

Many don't even know the hasty sling exists (where you don't have to be trussed up like a chicken).

A modern VTAC sling can also double for support (the shooter is SFC Chance Gianelli, NCOIC of the SF Sniper School and former International Sniper Comp Co-Champion.

 

[George63]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

In that figure 3-8 hawkins position line drawing it looks like the support hand is holding the sling at the front swivel - that would be a good way to keep some control of the rifle while running the bolt

there does appear to be a useful nugget in all of this - I am liking this for a 300 yd rapid prone exercise

 

[akjaeger]

Re: Try unsupported prone.

This is a pretty interesting sling, http://artoftherifle.blogspot.com/2012/12/introducing-riflecraft-rs1-sling.html,
I've got one and it works great. Very well made.
It's very quick to get into, with a little practice you can be looped up on the way down to prone, sitting or kneeling. No shooting coat needed. Best part is that it isn't another bit of paraphernalia, you're gonna have a sling anyway.

 

[drum13]

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