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TT and Vortex Gen3 in PRS
- Thread starter anginaprinzmetal
- Start date
In theory, yes...
But in practice, you'd need to have some fact specific analysis...
ie to confirm this is actually happening.
^^^This.
The sponsorship game muddies everything to the point that a guy would be foolish to assume that a shooter with an optics manufacturer printed on their jersey chose a scope solely because it was the highest quality option available.
The same is true for a shooter changing sponsors. It could easily have nothing to do with the quality of a product and everything to do with a sponsorship or even a tangential business relationship.
Even if the shooter in the jersey swears otherwise. Because sponsorship is a business relationship where the person being sponsored agrees to promote the sponsor's product in exchange for some sort of financial benefit.
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I think there are a few of shooters who choose their sponsors. Talking with Vibbert at a match a couple of years ago, he mentioned that he went to the various vendors he had bought stuff from and told them to pay him for the attention he was getting for them, and it worked. If my favorite optics company offered to pay my match fees or give me some free optics I already liked, I'd stick with them and print it on a jersey.
But the sheer number of people moving over from what I consider to be better optics to use MK5s and printing "Leupold" on their jerseys tells me that Leupold's marketing budget has to be YUGE.
But again, to your point, "What the pros use" blog posts are suspect when it comes to optics, chassis, projectiles, and barrels.
There have been more than a few instances of MK5s being rich in elevation as well. I’ve seen at least 3 7-35s that were off by as much as +3-4%. The 5-25s seem to be affected to a lesser degree… I know of maybe 2 that were +1-2% also.
All that to say that no scope is free of issues, regardless of “what the pros use.”
All that to say that no scope is free of issues, regardless of “what the pros use.”
Not only that, but there's a huge herd mentality.
Even if you are spending your own dollars, you are likely to follow what others are using. Which is why sponsors do what they do - if it wasn't so effective to buy PRS shooters, they wouldn't do it.
Being the stupidest guy here (trust me, that will be apparent in a moment,) and I know that military grade or approved is not the ultimate seal of quality, if a number of SF guys are using, say, a NF optic and they are in the GWOT and go from 32 F in the mountains to 105 in the sandbox and still make hits, is it because they are not shooting far enough? Or some other thing?
I say this, having read the memoirs of some former snipers who were in the Rangers.
I am also mindful that their job description is vastly different than that of PRS.
In fact, my whole question may be apples to oranges. But I simply could not pass up the chance to ask what might a silly question or just another facet of an academic discussion.
I say this, having read the memoirs of some former snipers who were in the Rangers.
I am also mindful that their job description is vastly different than that of PRS.
In fact, my whole question may be apples to oranges. But I simply could not pass up the chance to ask what might a silly question or just another facet of an academic discussion.
My G3 doesn’t experience a zero shift with temp changes. Just last week I was pressure checking some reloads and sat the rifle outside on my deck in the sun to let it temp soak. The deck has dark gray paint and the surface temp was 162 degrees per my temp gun
. The concrete sidewalk was only 109. Ambient temp was 100 degrees. I got busy and forgot the rifle for 2 hours and then shot 5-rounds. Zero was dead on from the previous zero set at 70 deg.
I’ve started several matches in the 60s and finished them near 90, no zero shift issues experienced.
. The concrete sidewalk was only 109. Ambient temp was 100 degrees. I got busy and forgot the rifle for 2 hours and then shot 5-rounds. Zero was dead on from the previous zero set at 70 deg.I’ve started several matches in the 60s and finished them near 90, no zero shift issues experienced.
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I am willing to help - I will trade a Vortex Gen II for a Gen III - just send me an IM!
Neither of my G3’s have demonstrated a zero shift. 40+ degree temp swings are common/the norm here. I’m thinking someone just needs to keep their gun & ammo in the shade. I wouldn’t buy into this “thermal shift” theory unless the had a chrono going at the same time.
In theory, maybe. In practice, not likely. The way lenses are glued into their holders is radially symmetric. Epoxy expansion would not cause a sufficiently significant lateral shift unless something was done very incorrectly. However, a screw up of that magnitude would likely manifest itself in other ways as well.
ILya
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Also, there is a very large group of hunters and “fudds” becoming interested in “long range shooting” that have $$$ but very little understanding of the game. They are ripe for the plucking by brand names they are already familiar with.
Well, I asked to be sponsored by Tangent Theta one time.
They laughed in my face.
Then apologized to me.
(Insert Canadian joke...)
They laughed in my face.
Then apologized to me.
(Insert Canadian joke...)
There is no proof such shifts exist. Just opinions.
TBH it sounds like a wonderful excuse for poor match performance.
In my limited experience, a mil (vs MOA) Gen 3 Razor is the F150 of solid options. A bit heavy, but a choice that holds value when you want get something else. The zero stop and zeroing process is simple. The shooters that spend their own $$$$, are budget minded, and need predictable performance often end up here. The only way to build a well rounded understanding of what will really work best for you is to use it a lot, especially with expert coaching/classes in the beginning.
I just kept the 45 year old 3x9 pentax but changed the brush mounts to lower ones
It's legit and 2 of the best shooters in the world have talked about it. One switched to zco this season and the other just won a match a few weeks ago.
Sponsorships don't mean dick if you don't have confidence in your gear.
I don't shoot well enough to see the difference and it may only effect a certain percentage of the model but there is too much smoke to say there is no fire.
Most of the people in this thread are talking out of their ass about a product they don't know, shooters they don't know and relationships with vendors they don't undetstand.
I heard the same shpeal and there was more than a little undercurrent of sour grapes from one of the two guys you're parroting. As in, it was clear he was pissed at Vortex and was more than happy to trash the product to anyone that would listen.
Which to be honest is a bad look for someone who makes at least part of his living as a product spokesperson. Vortex is a large company that has been ridiculously supportive of precision rifle competition for years. A Pro shooter spreading a rumor that (he most certainly knows) has clear potential to cause direct financial harm to Vortex might find himself wishing he'd taken the high road instead.
Neither of the two shooters you're talking about was a "he?"
ETA: Regardless, if I were a sponsor providing major financial support to these folks their willingness to badmouth a company like Vortex would give me serious pause about our relationship going forward.
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well let’s just throw names out. No need to skirt around it.
The thermal shift started from Baker. I feel like half of the PRS heard about it at the 2023 finale.
The only other person that isn’t a he that dropped Vortex for ZCO would be Zane.
I have no personal dealing in the matter in regards to the company or the people involved. I have a G3 I use on my 308 trainer and have not had the issue.
The thermal shift started from Baker. I feel like half of the PRS heard about it at the 2023 finale.
The only other person that isn’t a he that dropped Vortex for ZCO would be Zane.
I have no personal dealing in the matter in regards to the company or the people involved. I have a G3 I use on my 308 trainer and have not had the issue.
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So, any actual examples of this happening? Or is this the in vogue excuse to dump a former sponsor.
To re-iterate: if anyone has any details on what kind of a shift was observed and at what conditions, I would really like to figure out what caused it.
Summarizing this thread, this are several distinct possibilities:
1) It is a real phenomenon that may occur in some Razor Gen3 scopes. It appears that two people are complaining about it, but noone has been able to produce any details.
2) It is a real phenomenon that was caused by something else, but again without any details it is hard to say.
3) Someone is pissed at Vortex and is trying to get back at them for something (badmouthing Vortex is a pretty fashionable thing these days). Again, not knowing anything about the people and what they are claiming, I can't tell. It is a little underhanded, but not unheard of. I was hoping that this kind of nonsense was contained to Youtubers, but perhaps it extends to the shooting world at large.
4) This is simply a convenient excuse for poor performance, which would be the most human of failings.
Was there any other possibility brought up in this thread that I missed?
ILya
Summarizing this thread, this are several distinct possibilities:
1) It is a real phenomenon that may occur in some Razor Gen3 scopes. It appears that two people are complaining about it, but noone has been able to produce any details.
2) It is a real phenomenon that was caused by something else, but again without any details it is hard to say.
3) Someone is pissed at Vortex and is trying to get back at them for something (badmouthing Vortex is a pretty fashionable thing these days). Again, not knowing anything about the people and what they are claiming, I can't tell. It is a little underhanded, but not unheard of. I was hoping that this kind of nonsense was contained to Youtubers, but perhaps it extends to the shooting world at large.
4) This is simply a convenient excuse for poor performance, which would be the most human of failings.
Was there any other possibility brought up in this thread that I missed?
ILya
I was under an impression that they did not sponsor anyone. They do have a sense of humor though.
If you want to get back at them, just call up Trevor or Ted and politely inquire how much they are enjoying the esteemed leadership of Justin Trudeau. I asked that question once and I still feel guilty about it. Next time I am in Canada, I am going to send them a couple of bottles of nice rum as an apology.
ILya
The most plausible question is probably that riflescopes do not really shift zero with temperature very much if at all. Even if they do a little, out in the real world, other factors overshadow this potential small shift enough for it to be completely unnoticed (if it exists at all).
ILya
I am not sure who these shooters are or their backgrounds since I am not super familiar with the PRS crowd.
I am planning to do a livestream on Thursday with Tyler Patner to talk a little bit about thermal shifts. He is a serious field target guy and they have been paying attention to thermal shifts for a long time. I want to pick his brain and get an idea of what sorts of shifts they have been seeing.
ILya
Not sure what that’s supposed to mean. I’m just delivering the message that I get from said shooters. Some still shoot for Vortex and some don’t. They’re stand up people that haven’t made excuses for bad matches before so I don’t imagine this is the case now.
It's a complaint without evidence
Ummm...aliens?
I'm calling BS on this thermal shift theory. Never heard of this issue from ANY scope and they're all made from basically the same materials. If there was one brand they would start this nonsense about, it would be Vortex. Someone with a G3 needs to take a heat gun to the range.
I plan to when I am back home in a couple of weeks. There is a 100 yard shooting tunnel at my range. I'll go set up there with a few icepacks and a hair dryer to check this out. I have a very accurate 17HMR from Vudoo that should be a nice test bed for this.
ILya
I know which match you were at... LOL. 100yd rimfire benchrest targets are no joke, even at 50 yards.
It's been pretty well demonstrated that changing environmental conditions can change the apparent zero of a scope - this thread has one example: https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...he-scope-video-am-i-imagining-things.6976687/ - that doesn't mean it'll show up every day, at every range, in every lighting/temperate/humidity condition, etc. So, you can see some stuff without your scope having any mechanical issues, sometimes.
I haven't heard about specific issues with the Gen3 related to temperature, yet. I played around with one for a bit, and it's definitely quite a bit more sensitive to parallax adjustment and ocular focus than the Gen 2 was (and when it's not absolutely perfect, focus changes dramatically with magnification). Given that parallax shifts with temperature, etc, it wouldn't surprise if *that* had something to do with it...
Because I hug nobody's nuts.
If the thermal shift is real, we should see an immediate change in their scores after switching... but we don't, we see the opposite provided you want to call a 2-point deficit average for one and a .37-point deficit for the other a "Change". Which leads me to believe that if it is real, it effected very few shots.
But with the above stated, and the good of the inner webs... we can definitely say a Vortex Razor Gen3 > ZCO and put that discussion to bed now
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I sometimes wonder how much of what the top PRS shooters use/do is from a methodical approach to getting better versus just superstition and guesses. When I was taking microbiology the professor mentioned to me that microbiologists are some of the most superstitious people in the building. They'll wear their lucky socks and do all sorts of weird stuff (including semi-jokingly burning petri dishes on a fake altar) as a way to give themselves luck on their bacteria growing in the cultures they've prepared.
I can't help wondering how much of this reported thermal shift is real versus people being paranoid and automatically blaming the link in their chain that everyone likes to beat up on. IF this is real and IF the scope is NOT the culprit, I don't think the scope would have been automatically blamed if it was a TT/ZCO/NF.
I can't help wondering how much of this reported thermal shift is real versus people being paranoid and automatically blaming the link in their chain that everyone likes to beat up on. IF this is real and IF the scope is NOT the culprit, I don't think the scope would have been automatically blamed if it was a TT/ZCO/NF.
In seeing the whole story I call BS on this whole "thermal shift problem" with the Gen III. As most know I have no love for Vortex now but not going to jump on some made up bandwagon of something that has never been seen in any other scope and all of a sudden just this scope has it happen. Seeing the rest of the story in shooters claiming this hurt them and having shot this sport over 20 years and seen people come up with all sorts of reason why they shot bad (Hint- it's always the gear and never them). Not even going to entertain this BS anymore.
And Ilya I wouldn't even waste a minute trying to prove this.
And Ilya I wouldn't even waste a minute trying to prove this.
Gonna have to concur to a large degree. I know I "had a Gen2 Rzr go down", only to find out it was the rings slipping in the pic rail (after Scott from Vortex had checked the scope, found nothing wrong, then called me up, asking for me to look for rub marks on the rail). It appeared as if it was shifting .5 mils (exactly, every time) vertically. So I'm sure some who shot that match can say "I saw a Gen2 Rzr go down", and never got the full back story on it (note to self; never use minimum torque settings on rings in 80* temps, when the match is shot a 29* temps). That year's Big Horn Classic was a cold MF!
Not saying there couldn't be an issue with a Gen3 Rzr, but historically speaking, it's highly unlikely.
I have been very impressed with the Gen 3 razor's that I own. From January 20th's PRS match this year that started the day at -6 to -3 (depending on whose kestrel you wanted to believe) to the Kansas Punisher a few weekends back with an air temp of 103 at one point and considerably hotter on the scope body sitting out baking in the sun for hours, I have had no issues.
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Could this be a user error, not equipment?
It seems like the parallax function is the most misunderstood of any scope function.
Not sure. The member I talked to at the finale about it said he thought he was having the same issue Keith Baker was having. I’m not going to give a judgement on if that member knows how to use parralax or not. However, I talked to Vortex about the issue and they tested all of Bakers scopes from below freezing to boiling point and could not recreate the issue. Just being transparent.
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