Tuner Data

[cameljockey230]

I'd personally like to see even more data than that from AB. Though I know they have tested much more than what's in the book.

There's always an open invitation from AB for anyone to come out and show Litz what he's missing. They either all stop short at posting online why he's wrong....or the ones that do show up never speak of their failure once the lidar is out and tracking ever bullet in the air.

So Bryan Litz wants someone to do the r-d work for him?
Brianf get on it.

 

[Tokay444]

The problem here is its all already been done in rimfire and benchrest 20 years ago.
You guys are 20 years behind the times.
Your stuck with the sound barrier while the rest of the world has moved past it decades ago and your not willing to read what has already been hashed out.
You want your employees to come to a meeting and explain how a ball point pen works and why a wheel is round and not square then wonder why your company is suffering

Post all that 20 year old data then.

 

[cameljockey230]

Post all that 20 year old data then.

Read the thread

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Post all that 20 year old data then.

It's in a book that was never published in mass quantities and you can't find.

Coincidentally.

 

[cameljockey230]

Is this the R-D department

 

[cameljockey230]

It's in a book that was never published in mass quantities and you can't find.

Coincidentally.

I have several signed copies in my living room

 

[Ebar48]

I agree the rifle shot a 0.327 group then it went back to 1 inch groups. I accept his word that the group size tripled.
Why did the group size triple?
Do your groups triple in size?

Because of small sample sizes.

Because you have to take into account every group that is possible but lies at the far end of the bell curve.

The same reason aggregate score exists

And I do expect natural variation in dispersion, the reason I shoot minimum a 5x5 agg to have a true understanding of the precision potential of a rifle.

The same reason why I have been requesting statistically significant data since the first page of this thread

because the claim could have been made that the 0.327 inch group was a direct result of the rifle being “tuned” by the tuner when additional data at that setting suggests it shoots exactly the same as it does at any setting AND with no muzzle device/tuner/weight attached at all.

 

[brianf]

Ok, I’ve wasted more money in less.

I’ll take Rio’s idea.

I’ll pay for the trip and have litz and associates sign a NDA.

Open invitation

Pick a time and date and I’ll pay the bills

But if the data shows (I’ll have a third party correlate it at my expense), you’ll have to pony up the plane ticket cost.

 

[cameljockey230]

Because of small sample sizes.

Because you have to take into account every group that is possible but lies at the far end of the bell curve.

The same reason aggregate score exists

And I do expect natural variation in dispersion, the reason I shoot minimum a 5x5 agg to have a true understanding of the precision potential of a rifle.

The same reason why I have been requesting statistically significant data since the first page of this thread

because the claim could have been made that the 0.327 inch group was a direct result of the rifle being “tuned” by the tuner when additional data at that setting suggests it shoots exactly the same as it does at any setting AND with no muzzle device/tuner/weight attached at all.

So statistically speaking if he shot more group he would get more groups in the 0.327 size range correct?
And when your shooting your 5x5 agg's how many groups are one third the size of your control group?

 

[JBoomhauer]

I have several signed copies in my living room

Signed copies? Impressive.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

IMO, it should be video logged in it's entirety and released to the public unless there is something that would be covered under a very specific NDA.

If the NDA is just a general you can't say anything....this accomplishes nothing at all.

Put up or shut up. You have to consistently show bullets impacting in locations that are not explained via industry standard calculations as verified via lidar. And non of this "come up to my backyard and I'll show you." Lidar or nothing.


You'd also have video proof of your ideas being stolen in the event of litigation.

 

[cameljockey230]

Ok, I’ve wasted more money in less.

I’ll take Rio’s idea.

I’ll pay for the trip and have litz and associates sign a NDA.

Open invitation

Pick a time and date and I’ll pay the bills

But if the data shows (I’ll have a third party correlate it at my expense), you’ll have to pony up the plane ticket cost.

What's the offer I never read Rios posts

 

[Tokay444]

I forgot…aren’t you involved in CNC equipment which makes the actual product?

Almost like you might have a idea about R&D …just a guess

I know a little bit about a little bit.

 

[timintx]

First off, none of what I'm saying is meant to be an insult to you. Nor am I saying that it doesn't work.

However, there's no way to reconcile your conclusions with the very limited data and methodology that's been posted. There's so many variables in play that aren't being controlled & isolation, and so many assumptions that haven't been proven, that there's no way with what's been presented that a conclusion can be made. Maybe they "work" - I'm sure tuners do in some fashion. I think it's great that people like you are playing with this stuff, but there's still apparently a lot of work to be done.

And that's great that you are having the results you want, I'm happy for you. What is the military doing with the tests that you've shown them?

Just keep trolling lol.

 

[Tokay444]

So your stating the work done at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory is wrong?

I’m stating the FEA on Varmint Al’s website is purely theoretical. Are you arguing that?

 

[Tokay444]

Its very, very simple.

Lidar tracks the bullet the entire time its in flight. And you show them bullets making impacts on target where the velocity data shows that's not possible. And do it consistently.

That's literally how easy it is to prove this.


Funny how the bullets stop doing cool shit when lidar is out and about.

That's my new theory. Bullets are scared of lidar. As evidenced that all this stuff works for these guys in their backyards, but doesn't once the lidar is turned on.

I'm calling this "Scared bullet syndrome" or SBS for the military contracts.

It’s like the double slit test. Photons do different shit when they know we’re watching them, but I’m too dumb for this conversation.

 

[Ebar48]

So statistically speaking if he shot more group he would get more groups in the 0.327 size range correct?
And when your shooting your 5x5 agg's how many groups are one third the size of your control group?

Yes you would expect groups in the .327” range to occur again, but seldom. And this was seen again in the 308 rifle that agg’d .55” and then shot a .16” group, about 1/3 the average. Basic statistics and completely to be expected. And I personally have a 300NM that aggs .6” at a hundred but I did shoot a 200 yard 5 shot group that was 0.12”. Yet I don’t claim that as the expected accuracy potential of the rifle because groups like that will happen, naturally.

 

[timintx]

Again, I'm making no claims what is or isn't measurable. Nor what I believe the video does or does not show.

I'm just amused when everyone has a different theory on how tuners work and what can be measured by what. And subsequently all the inconsistent statements after something is posted that is at odds with those theories and statements.

So your just trolling with insults . That sure helps .lol

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

You guys are arguing with someone that says SD isn't a meaningful statistic because your barrel burns out before you'd verify the SD.

But that extreme spread (which uses only two data points) is a worthwhile stat.


Let that sink in......

 

[kthomas]

So your just trolling with insults . That sure helps .lol

Where are the insults?

You and cameljockey take this discussion way too personally. No one is attacking your characters or you as individuals.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Where are the insults?

You and cameljockey take this discussion way too personally. No one is attacking your characters or you as individuals.

They both seem to forget that camel has called someone a liar and Tim has claimed a video is fake.

So, let's not play victim here.

 

[Tokay444]

I have several signed copies in my living room

That’s quite a man crush you have there.

 

[brianf]

What's the offer I never read Rios posts

If he chimes in but my idea in general..

I’ll contact litz and suggest we /you bring a tuner and expected results on paper

We use his tech etc and see what really happens.

If the data shows that tuners work without a doubt then we have great data and the argument is over.

If the “tuning” stays with in the cone of confidence because of velocity/BC etc …then the data shows that tuners aren’t a benefit and you pay for the plane tickets there and back.

There’s more to it but testing in real data with real equipment

 

[timintx]

As per usual, anything that doesn't fit your narrative, you claim to be fraud. The only thing added to the video were some reference lines.

Since this was expected, here is another video with the rearward movement and gas escaping before bullet exit.


It's not a yellow legal pad after 20 years of research level of professional I know, but it'll have to do.

The first video was obviously meant to fit your narrative lol. Now the second video looks ligit, and you can see the barrel moving down . Now how are we calculating the precise exit angle from that ?

 

[Ebar48]

If he chimes in but my idea in general..

I’ll contact litz and suggest we /you bring a tuner and expected results on paper

We use his tech etc and see what really happens.

If the data shows that tuners work without a doubt then we have great data and the argument is over.

If the “tuning” stays with in the cone of confidence because of velocity/BC etc …then the data shows that tuners aren’t a benefit and you pay for the plane tickets there and back.

There’s more to it but testing in real data with real equipment

@cameljockey230 that is a solid offer, and if you can prove you are right, you can publish a book and I’ll buy it, as long as you sign it.

 

[timintx]

Video is from publicly available videos.

These two were from Applied Ballistics (queue up the "they are doctored to steal military contracts" claim).

All I did was add some reference lines and provide some slower frame by frame.

Never said that was to steal contracts , doctored not fake , probably subsonic and clamped in .you are just trolling lol.point being you can not measure exact launch Angles with video . Pretty simple . Get your facts right .

 

[cameljockey230]

@cameljockey230 that is a solid offer, and if you can prove you are right, you can publish a book and I’ll buy it, as long as you sign it.

You haven't posted in awhile so let me ask you a question.
Did you see the threads about the 500 page book and did you read the dedication?

 

[Tokay444]

Never said that was to steal contracts , doctored not fake , probably subsonic and clamped in .your just trolling lol.point being you can not measure exact launch Angles with video . Pretty simple . Get your facts right .

You’re*

 

[cameljockey230]

If he chimes in but my idea in general..

I’ll contact litz and suggest we /you bring a tuner and expected results on paper

We use his tech etc and see what really happens.

If the data shows that tuners work without a doubt then we have great data and the argument is over.

If the “tuning” stays with in the cone of confidence because of velocity/BC etc …then the data shows that tuners aren’t a benefit and you pay for the plane tickets there and back.

There’s more to it but testing in real data with real equipment

What does we use his tech mean?

 

[cameljockey230]

You’re*

Insulting someone's phone app means you've lost the debate

 

[Ebar48]

Did you read the front of the book

I think in the front of the book it's called the dedication?
Did you read that part?
You have read the book right?

This one? Yea. Says you can’t bootleg it. What am I missing?

 

[cameljockey230]

How about this test.
I shoot 5 targets with my tuner on my gun then kthomas or ebar48 shoots my gun with the tuner removed for 5 targets?
Or we fly brianf out here in a b17 and we do the same test.

 

[timintx]

You’re*

Noted

 

[cameljockey230]

This one? Yea. Says you can’t bootleg it. What am I missing?

It's a couple posts past that one and it includes a picture

 

[brianf]

What does we use his tech mean?

Whatever he has on site for measurement

Doppler
High speed cameras
Chronos

Anything and everything I can negotiate a meeting with.

3rd party shooter

Once everyone agreed…then we get done to brass tacks

 

[Ebar48]

How about this test.
I shoot 5 targets with my tuner on my gun then kthomas oe ebar48 shoots my gun with the tuner removed for 5 targets?

Too many variables, changing the shooter is a significant variable how about this test:

You tell me what tuner setting is best for that day and then you shoot your gun for a 5x5 agg at that setting, then with you blind folded I adjust the tuner and you agg another 5x5. We do this 4 times and 4 different tuner settings, and if you can show statistically significant change in group size you win, and I buy your book.

 

[cameljockey230]

Too many variables, changing the shooter is a significant variable how about this test:

You tell me what tuner setting is best for that day and then you shoot your gun for a 5x5 agg at that setting, then with you blind folded I adjust the tuner and you agg another 5x5. We do this 4 times and 4 different tuner settings, and if you can show statistically significant change in group size you win, and I buy your book.

Would this all be videotaped so we know you actually changed the setting and would we use my railgun?
Also why don't we remove the tuner completely?
After all they don't work right?

 

[Ebar48]

Would this all be videotaped so we know you actually changed the setting and would we use my railgun?
Also why don't we remove the tuner completely?
After all they don't work right?

Sure, rail gun, f class rig, benchrest setup. And sure take it off as well, my point is that I personally suspect that there is a strong placebo effect associated with this whole discussion. So if you shoot a group and don’t know what setting it’s on, or even if I moved it or not at all, would be about as unbiased as you can make the human aspect. But yea I’m down. As I have said before I want to believe, I just need to see the data that’s all. And I saw the dedication, I assume you are one of the 3 people, but I don’t know anything about the book

 

[Tokay444]

Insulting someone's phone app means you've lost the debate

I didn’t insult anyone’s phone app. You made that up. Common theme.

 

[cameljockey230]

I didn’t insult anyone’s phone app. You made that up. Common theme.

Just the facts mam

 

[cameljockey230]

Sure, rail gun, f class rig, benchrest setup. And sure take it off as well, my point is that I personally suspect that there is a strong placebo effect associated with this whole discussion. So if you shoot a group and don’t know what setting it’s on, or even if I moved it or not at all, would be about as unbiased as you can make the human aspect. But yea I’m down. As I have said before I want to believe, I just need to see the data that’s all. And I saw the dedication, I assume you are one of the 3 people, but I don’t know anything about the book

The Book is roughly 500 pages long about tuners written by the greatest rimfire gunsmith on earth today and yes I am one of the 3.
In case you don't know how a railgun works its just a return to battery rest and the only human interaction is loading the ammo and touching a half ounce trigger.
We shoot 5 targets with the tuner then 5 targets without and repeat a few times.
Again tuners don't work so why use one if Bryan is correct.

 

[Ebar48]

The Book is roughly 500 pages long about tuners written by the greatest rimfire gunsmith on earth today and yes I am one of the 3.
In case you don't know how a railgun works its just a return to battery rest and the only human interaction is loading the ammo and touching a half ounce trigger.
We shoot 5 targets with the tuner then 5 targets without and repeat a few times.
Again tuners don't work so why use one if Bryan is correct.

Yea I know how a railgun works, that works, and sure sounds good. Collect some data, do some statistical analysis, high five and call it a day.

 

[carbonbased]

On your question 4
A gun barrel is just a cantilever beam with a node back from its end.
Take a fishing pole and shake it vigorously and you will setup what is called a standing wave. Several inches back from the tip the fishing pole will appear to be stationary. To move that point to the tip you need to lengthen the pole.
This is the same as backboring a sporter barrel.

Ok, back in the saddle for 15min tonight. Don’t have the time I had yesterday. Want to still make some progress documenting exactly what you mean.

So, regarding #4 here and your response here, if you want the muzzle to be rising when you shoot, why would you also want the muzzle to be stationary?

 

[brianf]

Yea I know how a railgun works, that works, and sure sounds good. Collect some data, do some statistical analysis, high five and call it a day.

Load development on site or a 3rd party rifle with non tuner load development

Load devel done with out tuner for maximum accuracy

Then tuner added and results recorded

Not the other way around.

I guess I’m not going to litz …this is the easy way out

 

[Ebar48]

Load development on site or a 3rd party rifle with non tuner load development

Load devel done with out tuner for maximum accuracy

Then tuner added and results recorded

Not the other way around.

I guess I’m not going to litz …this is the easy way out

Agree to all those terms… You want to buy my ticket out there lol. I’ll make sure brianf is in the dedication of the book.

 

[brianf]

Agree to all those terms… You want to buy my ticket out there lol. I’ll make sure brianf is in the dedication of the book.

If it gets serious enough we’ll get some equipment out to that range…where ever it is.

 

[Ebar48]

If it gets serious enough we’ll get some equipment out to that range…where ever it is.

And maybe bring Litz out as well, all joking aside, I wouldn’t mind a signature in my vol 3

 

[carbonbased]

Is the Bill Calfee book that is being referenced around this thread? It seems freely available.

The Art of Rimfire Accuracy: Calfee, Bill: 9781456797775: Amazon.com: Books

The Art of Rimfire Accuracy [Calfee, Bill] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Art of Rimfire Accuracy

www.amazon.com

It’s 732 pages. Paperback is $44, hardbound is $74.

 

[cameljockey230]

Load development on site or a 3rd party rifle with non tuner load development

Load devel done with out tuner for maximum accuracy

Then tuner added and results recorded

Not the other way around.

I guess I’m not going to litz …this is the easy way out

Why would we do load development on site and without a tuner?
Why don't we use my gun with my ammo and tuner?
I shoot 5 targets at 5 shots remove the tuner from the barrel and you shoot 5 targets at 5 shots each?
Then I put the tuner back on and we repeat this several times.

 

[cameljockey230]

Is the Bill Calfee book that is being referenced around this thread this one? It seems freely available.

The Art of Rimfire Accuracy: Calfee, Bill: 9781456797775: Amazon.com: Books

The Art of Rimfire Accuracy [Calfee, Bill] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Art of Rimfire Accuracy

www.amazon.com

It’s 732 pages. Paperback is $44, hardbound is $74.

You're not supposed to come on this thread and prove that these guys are straight up liars. How dare you