Well I had to give the crowd what they wanted right?
(but I did say its the same thing as a 'modified' 100yd zero (left ~0.55")).
(but I did say its the same thing as a 'modified' 100yd zero (left ~0.55")).
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Using a Zero that isn't 100yd - Why?
- Thread starter TheOtherAndrew
- Start date
Expecting the "I'm an engineer" response anytime now.
Im expecting (other than JackMaster and a couple others) SSDD.
I gotta say I expected more from this place, the car forum I used to use had better banter.
[3:01-4:10] y'all are the UN - "go sell some medicine, bitches!"
So instead of starting a new post Ill just alter this one a bit.
Peoples thoughts on rimfire .22 and how useful it is (monetarily) to invest and compete in 22 matches vs a bunch of centerfire ones - main aim being to improve yp=our centerfire game, for much less $/round? Im thinking of investing in a nice 22 package, or do I go straight to nice centerfire - impact/xlr/bartlein etc (currently running a factory tikka centerfire thats decently accurate but could be better)
The big difference I can see off the bat is you aren't practicing recoil control really at all which Id assume can lend to bad habits forming making it not that useful for stated goal. However it seems like everything else would be useful and transferable (estimating wind, practicing scope/turret/hold ideas, trigger press, sturdy position building...)
Which side of the coin do you fall on?
Peoples thoughts on rimfire .22 and how useful it is (monetarily) to invest and compete in 22 matches vs a bunch of centerfire ones - main aim being to improve yp=our centerfire game, for much less $/round? Im thinking of investing in a nice 22 package, or do I go straight to nice centerfire - impact/xlr/bartlein etc (currently running a factory tikka centerfire thats decently accurate but could be better)
The big difference I can see off the bat is you aren't practicing recoil control really at all which Id assume can lend to bad habits forming making it not that useful for stated goal. However it seems like everything else would be useful and transferable (estimating wind, practicing scope/turret/hold ideas, trigger press, sturdy position building...)
Which side of the coin do you fall on?
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Ya. Not dialing windage is circa 2019. Keep up.
+1
Have a known 0.
Have a DOPE card on your sling.
Run a DTA SRSA2
My .338 LM is -0.6MRAD at 100
My unsuppressed 6.5 Creedmoor is 0.0 MRAD at 100
My Suppressed 6.5 Creedmoor is +2.0 MRAD.
at 100.
Dope card on sling.
Quick range in target, glance at card, dial, shoot.
Haven’t done a comp, have done drills from
200-1000 with spotter calling random targets.
Doesn’t take more than a few seconds to acquire, dial, send.
**Bonus point for first person who can actually explain exactly wha the fatal flaw is in the tremor reticle?**
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clicking 'add to cart' in the first place
With modern tactical turrets the idea of “zeroing“ your rifle has changed. The real question is “where do I set my zero-stop.”. And the answer is : personal preference based on your shooting needs. There is no best answer like 100 yards or 500 yards
The way of “zeroing” your rifle has changed. The definition of a rifle zero at distance is where
POA=POI at that distance. Years ago we would sight in the deer rifle at 100 yards with POI two inches above POA. This permitted a center hold out to any feasible deer shooting distance. The scope was now “zeroed” (not really because POA did not equal POI) and not touched. Any adjustment of the old scope required the removal of the turret cap and a coin and a sharp whack to make sure the reticle adjusted. Of course, the MOA adjustment was seldom precise and repeatable. You didn’t touch the damn thing except to shoot a round or two before deer season to confirm the POI. YOU DID NOT PURPOSELY CHANGE THE ZERO. If you had to take an extended range shot, you held over.
Now fast forward to today with tactical turrets from March, Nightforce, Vortex, etc. The MOA or MIL adjustments on a quality scope are fast, repeatable, and precise. Of course, there will be a bad apple here and there but these top brands in general give what you pay for.
This has changed the meaning of “zeroing.” I do not zero my competition rifles at 100 yards. However, I do “sight in” at 100 yards to minimize the influence of environmental factors like wind and temperature. My zero-stop is set so that my POI=POA+10.75” at 100 yards which puts me at about a 500 yard zero with my load/rifle. For F-class I shoot 600, 800, 900, and 1000 yards period. The precise/final MOA elevation settings (DOPE) for these different distances are confirmed by shooting at those distances.
If you shoot PRS, steel, or another sport where your friends are comparing come-ups, then by all means set your zero-stop at 100 and you will have a common reference point to share data. Very seldom has a fellow competitor asked for my MOA on the gun. They will ask about the bullet, powder, jump, barrel, stock, trigger and shooting system, but not my DOPE. Maybe it happens but I haven’t seen it.
Nowadays, what we refer to as “zero” usually corresponds to where the zero-stop is set. This is an arbitrary decision and based only on the shooter’s needs. With today’s scopes, it is so easy to shift your trajectory and zero with just a fast turn of the turret. When you adjust the elevation knob you are changing the intersection between your line of sight (POA) and bullet trajectory—this is by definition changing the rifle zero. Remember, the definition of zero distance is where POA=POI. If you’ve done your homework and confirmed your dope at distance, you can go from a 100 yard zero to a 1000 yard zero in 10 seconds and you can trust the adjustment unlike my old deer rifle. Set the zero-stop and move the turret cap to correspond to the zero hash mark and it’s done.
That’s literally what zero’ing at a 100 and dialing in a distance is.
No need to set it “X high at 100”.
For your example, just zero at 100 and dial in 500yds. Which is what we have been saying the whole time.
If for whatever reason you want to dial to 500 and slip the turret to zero, that’s fine. But it doesn’t do anything different.
You can set your zero-stop for a 100 yard zero if you want but that’s your personal preference not mine. I prefer to have it set at 500 since I have no need to dial back to a 100 zero When you are dialing you are changing your rifle zero by definition. My point it that it is personal preference
@TheOtherAndrew
Here's my experience.
Several decades ago, I had just one rifle. An inherited Browning Safari Grade in 30-06. It had a Bushnell 3x9 Scope Chief on it with tip off mount so I could still use the shrouded iron sights. I practiced shooting at various ranges and became quite proficient. In the process, I accidentally figured out that changing the zoom would change how I should hold for a given distance. I was about 12 years old.
Fast forward a few decades, I have many rifles in many calibers for many different purposes, an undergrad in Math and a graduate degree in (trigger word warning) Engineering. I admit that some were purchased to be primarily safe queens. I still own the old Browning and there aren't many men on Earth with enough money to buy it from me (not that they would want to).
I have and use scopes made by Burris, Weaver, Bushnell, Tasco, Shepherd, Nikon, Zeiss, Kahles,Swarovski, Nightforce and maybe others.
Over the last 10 years, I have mostly purchased scopes with the exposed turrets that were once nearly unheard of. I generally prefer to dial and aim with the crosshair.
I have never shot an actual match, just competing with a few friends for bragging rights and beer. But I do shoot as often as I can and I hunt. I live in Idaho so I have LOTS of opportunity for taking shots at ranges beyond my skills.
My go to rifle for deer is a custom made 280AI. I use the 140 grain Berger VLD Hunt that leave the barrel at 3,250 fps. This rifle is very lightweight...on purpose. I have a light(er) weight Swarovski scope on it...a Z5 3.5-18x44P. It has capped turrets...I have to remove a cap to adjust the reticle. Since the vast majority of my hunting for deer is at ranges inside of 500 yards and since I do quite a bit of walking enjoying this activity, weight was a high priority. The reticle is graduated in their BRH pattern. When I first mounted the scope, I used a 100 yard zero and then shot at various yardages, noting the impacts in relation to the various stadia lines. Swarovski has an online tool to take some of the guessing out of the effort. Then, one day, I decided to alter that zero to 272 yards. This particular distance allows for the bullet to travel no more than 3" high (at around 175 yards) and 3" low (at around 325 yards)...meaning that at the vast majority of ranges I shoot at deer, I can just aim right at the deer and make a clean kill. I had to go shoot a bunch (drag, I know) to learn where those other stadia lines coincided with bullet drop. I have a DOPE card taped to the stock for 3.5 power, 10 power and 18 power, it's shaped like my reticle view with the yardages written sort of left, center and right. Nothing fancy, just a cut off 3x5 card that I laminated then used clar packing tape to attach to my stock. I have shot rocks out to 850 with this setup, killed coyotes out to around 750. With deer, I try to get a little closer and have only taken them inside of 300 with this rifle. The cool thing is, the VAST majority of the shooting is done by just pointing and shooting. This has allowed me to take some deer that were only in view for a few seconds...definitely not enough time to LRF then dial.
I have a different philosophy for bear, elk and targets. I tend to set up where I can glass LOTS of God's country. When I spot something interesting, I start trying to get within good shooting range. Glass, stalk, range, glass, stalk, range, glass, stalk, range. I also now decide whether or not I want to pack the damned thing out of the hole I found it in. If all is good, I set up for a VERY stabilized shot. Range again. I refer to the DOPE card I have taped to the rifle stock or one of the little cards I carry in a buttstock pack with all sorts of info on them such as DA, drift in wind. DIAL the scope that has been zeroed at 100 yards. Range again. Guess the wind in a couple of places between the target and rifle muzzle, I do use a Kestrel, for what it's worth. Then try to focus on nothing but getting off a good shot and let the science do the rest.
Now....YOU have the REASON to use an other than 100 yard zero in the real world. Do with it what you may.
EDITED: @308pirate I apologize for being so verbose
Here's my experience.
Several decades ago, I had just one rifle. An inherited Browning Safari Grade in 30-06. It had a Bushnell 3x9 Scope Chief on it with tip off mount so I could still use the shrouded iron sights. I practiced shooting at various ranges and became quite proficient. In the process, I accidentally figured out that changing the zoom would change how I should hold for a given distance. I was about 12 years old.
Fast forward a few decades, I have many rifles in many calibers for many different purposes, an undergrad in Math and a graduate degree in (trigger word warning) Engineering. I admit that some were purchased to be primarily safe queens. I still own the old Browning and there aren't many men on Earth with enough money to buy it from me (not that they would want to).
I have and use scopes made by Burris, Weaver, Bushnell, Tasco, Shepherd, Nikon, Zeiss, Kahles,Swarovski, Nightforce and maybe others.
Over the last 10 years, I have mostly purchased scopes with the exposed turrets that were once nearly unheard of. I generally prefer to dial and aim with the crosshair.
I have never shot an actual match, just competing with a few friends for bragging rights and beer. But I do shoot as often as I can and I hunt. I live in Idaho so I have LOTS of opportunity for taking shots at ranges beyond my skills.
My go to rifle for deer is a custom made 280AI. I use the 140 grain Berger VLD Hunt that leave the barrel at 3,250 fps. This rifle is very lightweight...on purpose. I have a light(er) weight Swarovski scope on it...a Z5 3.5-18x44P. It has capped turrets...I have to remove a cap to adjust the reticle. Since the vast majority of my hunting for deer is at ranges inside of 500 yards and since I do quite a bit of walking enjoying this activity, weight was a high priority. The reticle is graduated in their BRH pattern. When I first mounted the scope, I used a 100 yard zero and then shot at various yardages, noting the impacts in relation to the various stadia lines. Swarovski has an online tool to take some of the guessing out of the effort. Then, one day, I decided to alter that zero to 272 yards. This particular distance allows for the bullet to travel no more than 3" high (at around 175 yards) and 3" low (at around 325 yards)...meaning that at the vast majority of ranges I shoot at deer, I can just aim right at the deer and make a clean kill. I had to go shoot a bunch (drag, I know) to learn where those other stadia lines coincided with bullet drop. I have a DOPE card taped to the stock for 3.5 power, 10 power and 18 power, it's shaped like my reticle view with the yardages written sort of left, center and right. Nothing fancy, just a cut off 3x5 card that I laminated then used clar packing tape to attach to my stock. I have shot rocks out to 850 with this setup, killed coyotes out to around 750. With deer, I try to get a little closer and have only taken them inside of 300 with this rifle. The cool thing is, the VAST majority of the shooting is done by just pointing and shooting. This has allowed me to take some deer that were only in view for a few seconds...definitely not enough time to LRF then dial.
I have a different philosophy for bear, elk and targets. I tend to set up where I can glass LOTS of God's country. When I spot something interesting, I start trying to get within good shooting range. Glass, stalk, range, glass, stalk, range, glass, stalk, range. I also now decide whether or not I want to pack the damned thing out of the hole I found it in. If all is good, I set up for a VERY stabilized shot. Range again. I refer to the DOPE card I have taped to the rifle stock or one of the little cards I carry in a buttstock pack with all sorts of info on them such as DA, drift in wind. DIAL the scope that has been zeroed at 100 yards. Range again. Guess the wind in a couple of places between the target and rifle muzzle, I do use a Kestrel, for what it's worth. Then try to focus on nothing but getting off a good shot and let the science do the rest.
Now....YOU have the REASON to use an other than 100 yard zero in the real world. Do with it what you may.
EDITED: @308pirate I apologize for being so verbose
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I prefer to set my zero stop at minus 1/2 revolution, when possible. Just personal preference....with some reasons.
What scopes (other than NF) allow you to alter the number of click below "0" marking on turret (that are exposed turrets - not LPVO)? Ive heard of NF's changeable "clutch" deal-e-bop; but every other scope I know of (which is not huge Ill admit) only goes from (-0.3 to -0.5). I have a Razor 4.5-27.
Every single scope I have ever seen with a zero stop. The zero stop is set at the zero YOU set. So...what I do is zero the scope at 100, then dial a half rotation more and set the zero stop. I have never given a Vortex more than a first glance, can't help you there.
My Swaro x5i has a slick deal where you pull on part of the turret and can then dial below your zero stop.
I hear ya, just to clarify though - your 100yd zero reads "0" on turret and (assume you have 10mil/rotation) you can then dial backwards 5mil?
ZCO, TT, Steiner, S&B, Zeiss - all have a version of 'changeable clutch?'
News to my ears, I wish that was more directly marketed!
Is the Razor zero lock same as the Viper PST gen 2? It can be tricked when setting the zero lock to give whatever "clicks" below zero you want.
I always put 3 tenth below zero to give some leeway for change in conditions/ammo.
I have managed to work around ever NEEDING to go more than 0.4 below my 100yd zero too.
But now that Im comfortable with that system, I want to try a different and maybe better system - but it requires a few things that, I guess I wrongly assumed, most scopes dont allow (only allowing 0.5mil below "0" zero-stops).
So thats why now were talking about turrets that allow more than 0.5 -1/2 rotation below turret "0."
*Anybody with a Zeiss/ZCO/TT scope - can you change the zero stop to ~1/2 rotation below turret "0?"
But now that Im comfortable with that system, I want to try a different and maybe better system - but it requires a few things that, I guess I wrongly assumed, most scopes dont allow (only allowing 0.5mil below "0" zero-stops).
So thats why now were talking about turrets that allow more than 0.5 -1/2 rotation below turret "0."
*Anybody with a Zeiss/ZCO/TT scope - can you change the zero stop to ~1/2 rotation below turret "0?"
Went shooting today. 16” semi auto .308. I have no clue what distance its zeroed at. Started shooting at 280y and working out adjusting as I went. Below is a C zone sized target at 1060
Weather. Wind was a hard read, those berms do weird stuff.
Even caught the very edge lower of the 10” plate at that 1060.
I do not know at what yardage the scope zero is , shot a new load today so I doubt its the same as last time. Likely with in .5 mil at 100??? Maybe??? If you wana jerk you self off over your zero distance I got lots of popcorn.
Weather. Wind was a hard read, those berms do weird stuff.
Even caught the very edge lower of the 10” plate at that 1060.
I do not know at what yardage the scope zero is , shot a new load today so I doubt its the same as last time. Likely with in .5 mil at 100??? Maybe??? If you wana jerk you self off over your zero distance I got lots of popcorn.
Is your point to not worry about where your gun is zeroed, just go shoot it?
Side note: Id love to have that type of access to many targets and ranges to 1100yd, thats awesome.
Side note: Id love to have that type of access to many targets and ranges to 1100yd, thats awesome.
Trying to figure out the wind was moving the bullet around a hell of a lot more than a few clicks difference in zero.
Zero at 100 and don't worry about going below your zero stop. Or do some crazy zero and deal with figuring where you are half the time. LOL
I'm a hunter, but love reloading and going to the range. Where I hunt my typical shot is around 60 yards, give or take 15 yards - absolute max is around 120 yards.
The Public range that I use is limited to a max of 100 Yards. I often zero my rifle(s) at the first crossing the zero. For my two 6.5 CMs, use 140 yard zero - first xing is around 60 -> 63 yards, so that is where I zero the two 6.5's. I check spread at the range max (100 yrds), should be about 1/2 inch high.
The Public range that I use is limited to a max of 100 Yards. I often zero my rifle(s) at the first crossing the zero. For my two 6.5 CMs, use 140 yard zero - first xing is around 60 -> 63 yards, so that is where I zero the two 6.5's. I check spread at the range max (100 yrds), should be about 1/2 inch high.
Well since all my centerfires have 100 yard zeros and all my .22 have 50 yard zeros, its pretty easy to remember.
I usually set the zero stop about .5 mil below zero, but that's just because I don't like riding against the zero stop. Probably doesn't make any difference, just something I like to do. Ever put 25 yards into your solver with a 100 yd zero to see what your hold is? On my 6 Creed, I have to dial 1.5.
Point being you will probably never need to go below 0 for a dial, at least with a 100 yard zero.
Point being you will probably never need to go below 0 for a dial, at least with a 100 yard zero.
I need to read and learn the answers you've gotten here........ I prefer a 200 zero with my limited knowledge, believing it will pretty well hit anything under 200, as well as stretch to 250 or better, if we're talking CBM. And it's proven out fairly well when I'm shooting steels out to 500, the limit at my local range. Once a year at least, I visit an ELR range, and don't change the zero when I do.
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