Ill admit, hindsight is always 20/20; and what hindsight is telling me is I should've used the word "center" not "zero" in the title. Thats my bad.
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Using a Zero that isn't 100yd - Why?
- Thread starter TheOtherAndrew
- Start date
Still beating this dead horse? 100 yards, very little wind effect. Most places will have a 100 yard range you can check your zero on.
Bottom line get a known zero of your choice and learn how to adjust from there. You can crank knobs or hold over/under. Learn the ballistics for your round and spend more time shooting than posting.
Bottom line get a known zero of your choice and learn how to adjust from there. You can crank knobs or hold over/under. Learn the ballistics for your round and spend more time shooting than posting.
Finally got to use the 400yd center and did some fine tuning with the idea. Let me tell you the theory MATCHES reality better than I could've hoped. Once you include 1 more piece to the puzzle to account for DA/F shifts and how to incorporate. With the new formula in place I easily/quickly (as targets can be acquired) clean 300-800yd without touching the turret and only knowing 1 thing - distance to target. Theory held up well in reality (also, I am only using factory Hornady 147 6.5CM).
It is not speed drop, it is significantly different FWIW.
And I STILL pay attention to 100yd Absolute Zero data - obviously its important to know your 100yd elevation is still in same place/constant - barrel/action/mount/scope internals/etc didn't shift from an impact.
It is not speed drop, it is significantly different FWIW.
And I STILL pay attention to 100yd Absolute Zero data - obviously its important to know your 100yd elevation is still in same place/constant - barrel/action/mount/scope internals/etc didn't shift from an impact.
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Have used it for past 4-6mths at home ranges.
Now have used at significantly different altitudes and temps and learned how to make the data flow simpler - and obviously still work correctly in all conditions without changing mechanical zero.
So yea this is more about confirming how DA/F (environmentals) play into the 4C method, how to account for and still retain the same ease of use 4C was meant to provide
Now have used at significantly different altitudes and temps and learned how to make the data flow simpler - and obviously still work correctly in all conditions without changing mechanical zero.
So yea this is more about confirming how DA/F (environmentals) play into the 4C method, how to account for and still retain the same ease of use 4C was meant to provide
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From what I can understand you are talking about a BDC reticle. It's just tuned to your load.
TLDR, stop trying to make shit about you.Holy Smokes Batman, It works!
Finally got to use the 400yd center and did some fine tuning with the idea. Let me tell you the theory MATCHES reality better than I could've hoped. Once you include 1 more piece to the puzzle to account for DA/F shifts and how to do make the adjustments. With the new formula in place I easily/quickly (as targets can be acquired) clean 300-800yd without touching the turret and only knowing 1 thing - distance to target. Theory held up tremendously in reality!
It was a lot of number crunching to get there but now that it is set up I can clean up with ease on <2MOA targets anywhere inside 1000yd with winds anywhere from 0-20mph FV. AND I CAN STILL SHOOT 3/8" GROUPS AT 100YD IF I SO DESIRE; not to mention dial on all the way to 1800yd just for fun!
1) It is not speed drop, it is significantly different (for patent purposes)
2) It is not Jackmasters lifted version of speed drop
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It is a step forward and a drop in the entire bucket of ballistic knowledge, but it is a useful tool for me nonetheless and I have now gotten offers from 2 major scope/reticle companies and plan to patent the idea once I get the money saved up. If the military's objective for scout snipers is to clean up everything inside 600yd not only have I produced an advantage on that front (if it ever makes it into their hands; I agree long shot) but I also extended the "kitchen" to 800yd for any DA/F I have come across, maybe not the arctic circle at sea level that may still only be good to 600yd, but technically a reloader could easily change the load to keep it working fine (remember I am only using factory Hornady 147 6.5CM).
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Bring the heat
It’s more a general no one cares, you even tried to make someone else’s system used long before whatever you use something about you and you were shut down.
Determining how well it [works] would be an individual assessment/preference thing because there are other things to consider. Honestly with some reflection I can see myself going back to a 0.0 turret 100yd traditional zero 'system' in the coming years because it CAN be less to think about - comes down to WHEN you want to do your thinking -> on the clock or even pre stage (when you could be thinking more about positioning/wind call etc), or before the matches start.
Essentially you'd take your scope/rifle/bullet [gun] and zero it at 100yd.
Create a workable ballistic profile.
Spin turret to ~380yd data (reasoning has a longer explanation but essentially its to offset the 4-800yd drop being <4.0mil - mainly the 4-500 split being less than 1.0mil).
Then slip the turret and set it to read 4.0mil (using center dot, POI should be ~3-4" below POA for a 400yd target) - "low at 4.0"
*fine tuning method depends on DA/F variability expected to encounter with gun system, but above gets you in ballpark. I normalize my DA's then normalize my DOPE accordingly, set scope to that; based on environment just add or sub a click or 2 for same [Holds] (4.2/3.8); outside of 800yd the changes are more drastic requiring updated [4C Dial] numbers.
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(4C = 400yd Center; 1Z = 100yd traditional zero)
Objective is to be able to either:
A) All holds - with turret at 4.0, hold elevation in reticle (0.1mil/10yd; big 1.0 hashes represent 100yd intervals)
ex.1 target at 678yd - hold below main horizontal stadia 2.8mil
ex.2 target at 500yd - hold below main horizontal stadia 1.0mil
B) All dials - using only center dot for elevation, spin turret to equal range to target/100 (use main horizontal stadia for wind holds)
ex.3 target at 678yd - dial 6.8 on turret
ex.4 target at 500yd - dial 5.0 on turret
On targets 'inside the kitchen' or 200-800yd roughly depending on MV/BC and current environment. That is 'match mode' essentially.
If you have targets outside the kitchen you can easily retain the same accuracy of a 100yd traditional zero by simply creating a DOPE card (and those numbers are equal to your 100yd zero data + [4C Value] (which is what your turret reads when center punching a 100yd target))
*shown below
(Credit - JackMaster)
Armband DOPE
(my own recently gathered DOPE )
Essentially you'd take your scope/rifle/bullet [gun] and zero it at 100yd.
Create a workable ballistic profile.
Spin turret to ~380yd data (reasoning has a longer explanation but essentially its to offset the 4-800yd drop being <4.0mil - mainly the 4-500 split being less than 1.0mil).
Then slip the turret and set it to read 4.0mil (using center dot, POI should be ~3-4" below POA for a 400yd target) - "low at 4.0"
*fine tuning method depends on DA/F variability expected to encounter with gun system, but above gets you in ballpark. I normalize my DA's then normalize my DOPE accordingly, set scope to that; based on environment just add or sub a click or 2 for same [Holds] (4.2/3.8); outside of 800yd the changes are more drastic requiring updated [4C Dial] numbers.
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(4C = 400yd Center; 1Z = 100yd traditional zero)
Objective is to be able to either:
A) All holds - with turret at 4.0, hold elevation in reticle (0.1mil/10yd; big 1.0 hashes represent 100yd intervals)
ex.1 target at 678yd - hold below main horizontal stadia 2.8mil
ex.2 target at 500yd - hold below main horizontal stadia 1.0mil
B) All dials - using only center dot for elevation, spin turret to equal range to target/100 (use main horizontal stadia for wind holds)
ex.3 target at 678yd - dial 6.8 on turret
ex.4 target at 500yd - dial 5.0 on turret
On targets 'inside the kitchen' or 200-800yd roughly depending on MV/BC and current environment. That is 'match mode' essentially.
If you have targets outside the kitchen you can easily retain the same accuracy of a 100yd traditional zero by simply creating a DOPE card (and those numbers are equal to your 100yd zero data + [4C Value] (which is what your turret reads when center punching a 100yd target))
*shown below
Armband DOPE
1) 0.3mil of total slop at a 0.5mil tall target is not a miss if you know which side the slop is on.
2) at 800 there is 0.0 slop (maybe 0.15 total from ammo?).
The 800yd DOPE is 8.0
if youre holding the rule is keep turret at 4.0
then you hold 4.0
4+4=8.0
(if youre turret is dialed at 4.3 in this same scenario then yes a 4.0 hold would =8.3 and you would be 0.3 high)
But if you dial and use center the turret will read 8.0.
Either way (dial 4 + hold 4/or dial all 8) its the same thing
If you take the shooter and odd positions into factor a 2MOA shooter is 0.3mil radius so in any version you have that to contend with.
2) at 800 there is 0.0 slop (maybe 0.15 total from ammo?).
The 800yd DOPE is 8.0
if youre holding the rule is keep turret at 4.0
then you hold 4.0
4+4=8.0
(if youre turret is dialed at 4.3 in this same scenario then yes a 4.0 hold would =8.3 and you would be 0.3 high)
But if you dial and use center the turret will read 8.0.
Either way (dial 4 + hold 4/or dial all 8) its the same thing
If you take the shooter and odd positions into factor a 2MOA shooter is 0.3mil radius so in any version you have that to contend with.
So you are actually holding 3.7 - 4.3 instead of the 4.0 that you claim “depending if you know what side the slop is on”?
Your .3 mil wobble radius is in addition to the .3 “acceptable” error in actual trajectory. So you may hit just low of center or you may hit .55high. With the average being .3 high. Now add in your ammo es….Still pretty lame.
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Well then I guess Im lame... You make it sound like Im using a shotgun to hit these 800yd targets lol.
but FYI you cant get any more accurate with dialing in DOPE on a 100yd traditional zero in this case.
but FYI you cant get any more accurate with dialing in DOPE on a 100yd traditional zero in this case.
OP just asking....
Did you look at this?
www.snipershide.com
Did you look at this?
Finding your Speed Drop Factor
Follow Sniper's Hide and pick up the latest information on all things precision rifle-related. Sniper's Hide Training is for the serious tactical marksman.
www.snipershide.com
yea seen that.
Speed Drop isn't terrible if you have a Nightforce scope to dial below zero 1-3mil.
Have you ever used it? thoughts?
Speed Drop isn't terrible if you have a Nightforce scope to dial below zero 1-3mil.
Have you ever used it? thoughts?
Yes, I have used Speed Drop and it works well. Found it real handy for loads/rifles that I have not memorized.
Why would you have to have a Nightforce scope to dial under? We have talked about this. Do you not understand how to use the zero stop on your scope?
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Another practical matter to consider is parallax.
The 4C hold idea is a time buster, but if you have to mess with your parallax much from 3-800yd it kind of defeats the idea - so get a scope with forgiving parallax like ZCO (527 w/ MPCT3 is working great for me). But I do not know how to make my ZCO dial under 0.0 more than 0.5mil (because unlike what Aftermath mayve originally claimed, ZCO does not allow it).
I can get away with (retain high hit%) setting parallax at ~650 and not have an issue in the [kitchen] most times; worst case Id have to adjust it 1 time ~250 to ~650 depending on shot schedule.
Dialing with 4C retains exact same accuracy as dialing with 1Z so there is no downside outside the kitchen.
The 4C hold idea is a time buster, but if you have to mess with your parallax much from 3-800yd it kind of defeats the idea - so get a scope with forgiving parallax like ZCO (527 w/ MPCT3 is working great for me). But I do not know how to make my ZCO dial under 0.0 more than 0.5mil (because unlike what Aftermath mayve originally claimed, ZCO does not allow it).
I can get away with (retain high hit%) setting parallax at ~650 and not have an issue in the [kitchen] most times; worst case Id have to adjust it 1 time ~250 to ~650 depending on shot schedule.
Dialing with 4C retains exact same accuracy as dialing with 1Z so there is no downside outside the kitchen.
That scope has 35 mil of elevation adjustment, if you are truly dialed all the way down to zero that means you have a rail exactly half of the internal elevation (doubt)
I'm perplexed by the knowledge you have and lack at the same time.
Only other consideration is drastic changes in DA and temp to a lesser extent. This is where the 4.0 hold correction factor comes in (the 1-2clicks up or down thing mentioned above. Look at the data card I have for a match in Iowa estimated to be @2-3kDA and compare it to my 8kDA CO card.
CO-8kDA
(IA-3kDA left, IA 2kDA right)
(notice the red value - that is the DA/F alteration required to keep the [kitchen/4C holding zone] lining up the same way as CO)
That way my holding procedure remains the same no matter where I go.
*And again, the dial on numbers remain just as accurate as a 1Z system.
CO-8kDA
(IA-3kDA left, IA 2kDA right)
(notice the red value - that is the DA/F alteration required to keep the [kitchen/4C holding zone] lining up the same way as CO)
That way my holding procedure remains the same no matter where I go.
*And again, the dial on numbers remain just as accurate as a 1Z system.
The turrets
AKA the turrets don't come off the scope, there is no 'changeable' setting below zero. It comes pre set with 0.5mil below 0.0 and that is it. You may technically be able to cheat the system if you knew how to remove the turrets and didn't mind voiding any semblance of a warranty, but I dont and am perfectly okay without dialing 1.5-3mil below 0.0.
Nightforce has the ability to change the travel below 0.0. They engineered this specifically for speed drop and military request. Some other scopes may do the same but ZCO is not one of them.
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FWIW - my scope is on a 20MOA rail in a 20MOA mount. Has nothing to do with dialing below 0.0 on the turret.
Yea it does matter - ZCO turrets are simple you dial to POA=POI , loosen screw, slip turret, then tighten screws.
AKA the turrets don't come off the scope, there is no 'changeable' setting below zero. It comes pre set with 0.5mil below 0.0 and that is it. You may technically be able to cheat the system if you knew how to remove the turrets and didn't mind voiding any semblance of a warranty, but I dont and am perfectly okay without dialing 1.5-3mil below 0.0.
Nightforce has the ability to change the travel below 0.0. They engineered this specifically for speed drop and military request. Some other scopes may do the same but ZCO is not one of them.
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FWIW - my scope is on a 20MOA rail in a 20MOA mount. Has nothing to do with dialing below 0.0 on the turret.
Speed drop, that is dialing below 0.0 with a 100yd zero..... that was the reason we were talking about that.
And it is why my system is obviously different, you dont need to dial below 0.0.
And it is why my system is obviously different, you dont need to dial below 0.0.
For what it’s worth. You don’t have to dial below 0 to use speed drop. Dial up to make your speed drop number a whole number, then reduce the range by that number.
Speed drop number 2, range 750, 7.5-2=5mils, hold and shoot.
It’s a technique.
That is another way, ultimately comes down to preference - in the end the barrels angle to gravity will be the exact same. But I prefer to use the portion of my reticle closest to the center, for several reasons.
On my RPR, when I purchased it in 2017, Our Son donated us a scope. Not just any scope but the very first scope he ever purchased with the first of his paychecks from the Air Force. This scope dates back to 2003. Still clear and repeatable. Tough as nails it is. Its a VX3 6.5x20. Has a mil dot reticle but MOA turrets. We mounted up with the only rings we could find in Ft. Walton and sighted it in. It has not been moved since it was installed in 2017, and the gun shoots. The ranges have to be dialed because the mil dots are just not precise or frankly relevant. Except; the first mil dot which is dead on at 300 yards IF the scope is zeroed at 200 yards. Since the main range I shoot at locally is limited to 300 yards, there is no reason to change. Going to Prince Memorial or Altus, I just dial in the range and get after it.
The MPA is sighted at 100 with a good mrad scope.
The MPA is sighted at 100 with a good mrad scope.
Everyone needs to stop replying to this idiotic thread so that it either dies a well deserved death or the op look like an even bigger idiot replying to himself to try to appear relevant.
I am sorry, just have to poke here. You set the zero stop so that it does not act as a zero stop?
To the topic, I have 1.6mil zero stop distance to adjust that speed drop (and then some, because I do not care) and I like it for fast applications and if I want to introduce some new shooter to the sport, it is much easier to tell them to hold the number 2 for 200, 300 for 300..
How I understood it is that the magic with NF is the swiftness of the zero stop setting, not the actual zero stop.
Lining up shots with reticle or turrets beyond 400-500 (to hit center) with just memorized numbers sounds a bit unlikely to happen with all the seasons, daily temp changes and all. It is fast but it comes with a compromise.
@308pirate
I clicked this thread because it had just been commented by some dimwit - so maybe comment back again tomorrow and see how long can you keep this thread up by trying to shut it down? Maybe do this same to all few years old threads too? Just the classics?
Yes, that's correct. I use the stop as a turret stop. I don't rely on the stop to be my zero. Zero stop/Turret stop, all semantics.
308 pirate (the lead mean girl).
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These would've been way funnier though IMO
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These would've been way funnier though IMO
I'm actually with @308pirate on this....this is what I'd personally like to see happen to this.....well, breathtaking...thread
Appreciate that @Baron23
But before we let this vampire thread die again can someone explain why this is such a terrible thread? Its a holdover system at the core and thats it - different numbers on turrets but all revolving around holding elevation - what's the beef with holds?
A) Holding isn't precise enough
B) Were still hung up on the non-100yd zero thought and the blasphemy involved
C) We just hate the OP cuz he didn't cave instantly to our keyboard-warrior shit-slinging
D) other?
But before we let this vampire thread die again can someone explain why this is such a terrible thread? Its a holdover system at the core and thats it - different numbers on turrets but all revolving around holding elevation - what's the beef with holds?
A) Holding isn't precise enough
B) Were still hung up on the non-100yd zero thought and the blasphemy involved
C) We just hate the OP cuz he didn't cave instantly to our keyboard-warrior shit-slinging
D) other?
I always use 0 as my zero. While you can shift and compress your number line, keeping zero at zero really keeps the ultraviolet catastrophes in check.
However, I do sometime absorb infinite quantities into finite measurables. Fucking virtual photons
However, I do sometime absorb infinite quantities into finite measurables. Fucking virtual photons
Hola tiradores. Yo siempre lo pongo a 100 metros. ¿Por qué..?
En primer lugar por que yo trabajo en miliradianes, en sistema métrico. Una cosa menos que calcular. 1 clic = 0´1 mil = 1cm a 100m.
Aparte es necesario una base inclinada y/o una torreta con 28 miliradianes como mínimo, así me aseguro que no pierdo clicks de correción en elevación y puedo tener el ( zeroing) a 100m y todo el poder de correción de la óptica en elevación disponible para largo alcance .
Por ejemplo en mi Bergara bmp del 6´5 Creedmoor tengo una Vortex con una elevación de 31 mil. Base inclinada Sphur del 9 mil y está puesto a cero a 100m con una pérdida de sólo 1,5 mil. O sea, tengo más de 29 mil de correción en alcance.
En primer lugar por que yo trabajo en miliradianes, en sistema métrico. Una cosa menos que calcular. 1 clic = 0´1 mil = 1cm a 100m.
Aparte es necesario una base inclinada y/o una torreta con 28 miliradianes como mínimo, así me aseguro que no pierdo clicks de correción en elevación y puedo tener el ( zeroing) a 100m y todo el poder de correción de la óptica en elevación disponible para largo alcance .
Por ejemplo en mi Bergara bmp del 6´5 Creedmoor tengo una Vortex con una elevación de 31 mil. Base inclinada Sphur del 9 mil y está puesto a cero a 100m con una pérdida de sólo 1,5 mil. O sea, tengo más de 29 mil de correción en alcance.
"Hello shooters. I always put it at 100 meters. Why..?
In the first place, because I work in milliradians, in the metric system. One less thing to calculate. 1 click = 0´1 mil = 1cm at 100m.
Besides, a tilted base and/or a turret with at least 28 milliradians is necessary, so I make sure that I don't lose elevation correction clicks and I can have the (zeroing) at 100m and all the elevation correction power of the optics available for long-range .
For example in my 6'5 Creedmoor Bergara bmp I have a Vortex with an elevation of 31 mil. Sphur slanted base of 9 mil and is zeroed at 100m with a loss of only 1.5 mil. In other words, I have more than 29 thousand correction in scope."
translation that mostly works
mils arent metric. it's angular
but your other points. yeah pretty standard in long range shooting.
"Sighting in" is the process of obtaining the zero (vertical and horizontal) as a confirmed baseline (for specific load, bullet, atmospheric, et el parameters)........I prefer at 100 yds., based on experience confirming the wisdom input of "the masters." Agreed on dialing elevation; hold for wind........a fleeting variable. One spins (twirls) the elevation dial according to known good DOPE putting the reticle "on" desired point of impact vertically for longer distances. The gun is not "sighted-in" at the longer ranges, it is adjusted per DOPE above zero range at which sight-in process occurred. Following long range engagement, one returns vertical turret adjustment to sight-in zero.......the reason for the zero stops on better scopes in reducing return to zero errors, subsequent dial ups. One can call the terms what ever works for them, but this is the mechanism.
Well, I'll kick this half inflated balloon back into the air again.
I zero at 200y and I do it with everything. I am a hunter, and I primarily hunt coyotes. 99.99% of my shots are between 10 and 250y. They are often moving when I see them, and while I will sit down and make a mental range card before I start calling, I am basically determining landmarks that put them beyond my 250y point blank range. If they are inside of 250, I just pull the trigger.
The hate the op is getting here is unreal. It is a legitimate question, and if nobody could ask questions that had already been asked before, this would be one boring forum.
I zero at 200y and I do it with everything. I am a hunter, and I primarily hunt coyotes. 99.99% of my shots are between 10 and 250y. They are often moving when I see them, and while I will sit down and make a mental range card before I start calling, I am basically determining landmarks that put them beyond my 250y point blank range. If they are inside of 250, I just pull the trigger.
The hate the op is getting here is unreal. It is a legitimate question, and if nobody could ask questions that had already been asked before, this would be one boring forum.
The op is an unreformed ‘ask-hole.’ That is why he gets hate.
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