Vudoo Gun Works V-22 Rimfire Bolt Action

[RAVAGE88]

MB:

Just watched your two recent videos. Very informative. Harold Vaughn considered the conventional geometry of barrel/receiver threading to be non-optimal. That was a while ago. Since I am certain you are considering every aspect of improving accuracy, have you considered Vaughn's threading if it is not the standard threading today?

Rick

Great question Rick. I've tested various thread types for firearms use and what I found is they all do the same thing with the proper amount of torque applied when two faces come together but only if various aspects of the thread are proper. Fit/class and torque are the key elements and in the absence of torque, fit/class isn't enough to make threads a good idea.

There's a reason the Vudoo has no cold bore flier issues and to share a little of the secret sauce here, you should take a look at other rimfire platforms with pinned or slip fit/collapsing diameter type barrel interface conventions and you'll see a platform with cold bore flier problems, regardless of whose name is on it. Want to know why BR rifles don't typically provide repeatability and require some number of shots to "settle in?" Take a look at the thread tenon on the barrel and the amount of torque applied to attach it to the receiver.

Threads in a firearm are only effective when certain protocols are used to deploy them.

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

Im sure I have missed it somewhere, but what specific changes (if any) are happening to the regular V-22?

To outline the differences between the Gen 1 and Gen 2 designs, I'll go component by component below. Please remember, the Gen 2 is specific to the Magnum calibers, not the 22LR.

Receiver: Revision to component that ultimately provides the bore for the bolt nose. Gen 1 had lugs machined into receiver body and the bolt nose bore was provided by a separate component. Gen 2 receiver body now has the lug abutments and bolt nose bore provided by the same component so the axis for the lugs and bolt nose are common. Accomplishing this wasn't easy. I also added an Anti-Rotation feature that keeps the bolt nose true about it's axis while raising the bolt handle. New articulated bolt release design to allow further rearward movement of bolt so longer unfired magnum cartridges can be extracted and ejected.

Bolt Body: Removed threaded interface for shroud because there was no torque applied between shroud and bolt body (old Remington DNA because this platform was originally supposed to be the re-introduced Remington 40X before we wrapped Vudoo around the design). Created better concentric alignment between shroud and bolt body and created a lug locking system to allow tool-less disassembly of the bolt assembly. Eliminated pinned interface to attach bolt body and improved concentric alignment between bolt nose and bolt body. Added locking lug system between bolt nose and bolt body to allow tool-less disassembly of bolt assembly. Added channel for new bolt stop to ride in while opening and closing the bolt, bolt stop no longer engages left lug (looking forward) to stop rearward movement of bolt.

Bolt Nose: Added bolt stop surface for new articulated bolt release. Added channel for Anti-Rotation pin to ride in as bolt moves fore an aft. Removed pin groove and added locking lugs to engage features in bolt body for tool-less disassembly.

Shroud: Completely nuked the remaining Remington DNA and went to a new cocking piece which now resides in a pocket in the enclosed shroud and use a single locking lug to engage features in the back of the bolt body. Much improved concentric alignment with the bolt body.

Firing Pin: Removed pinned interface for tired Remington cocking piece design, added threads for new cocking piece. Rear of firing pin protrudes through shroud and has a hole for unlocking shroud from the bolt body. For those with enough hand strength, the hole isn't necessary. For those needing a little leverage, a simple pin punch can be used to unlock the shroud. New for Vudoo Crescent Impact tip.

Firing Pin Spring: Since the improvements in the bolt assembly yielded my goals to reduce/eliminate drag, I designed a new firing pin spring that's approached a little differently than what's typical. The new spring has a lower rate but the system as a whole provides more energy. Due to the lower rate, the felt resistance while raising the bolt handle is reduced. Most of this work happened while designing the V-22S because it's a three lug and I didn't want the typical heavy bolt lift and I was able to move the revisions into the V-22M.

Cocking Piece: Part of all the work to reduce/eliminate drag required yet another study on triggers and to provide consistency in ignition, the variation from one trigger to another, one brand to another had to be dealt with, so I reached out to Flavio Fare in Italy. I worked closely with his Son, Fabio (I know, you're now wondering about all the Harlequin novel covers) and in a short amount of time emailed SolidWorks models. The result is two new Vudoo triggers for BR and Repeater use that have a vertical sear face instead of the 60 degree angled face. No more upward force on the back of the bolt body and I'll stop here so we don't go down all the rabbit holes about this.

It's important to note that we cannot "update" the Gen 1 V-22 to these new features. Part of doing what we do is to continually push ourselves and the industry and what I've written above is the result. This type of progression should be considered normal for anyone or any company that makes a claim to be "innovative" and clearly, Rimfire World wins again.

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

Just watched the new videos and I have a couple questions. If a V-22 chambered in 22lr has the gen 2 fire control does that mean it also has all the other new features of the gen 2 action? Or are those gen 1 actions with a gen 2 fire control only? If it's the latter what's the timeline for 22lr actions in gen 2 form?

No sir, it's not possible to update the Gen 1 with all the features found in the Gen 2. The fire control update we provide for the Gen 1 is not a true Gen 2 Fire Control update because it's not possible to have the tool-less take down in the Gen 1 bolt assembly. What can be put into the Gen 1 bolt is a threaded version of the Gen 2 shroud (referred to as v1.2 in St George) along with versions of the cocking piece and firing pin. You won't see the full benefit of these parts without other features found in the Gen 2.

MB

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

To outline the differences between Gen 1 and Gen 2, I'll go component by component below.

Receiver: Revision to component that ultimately provides the bore for the bolt nose. Gen 1 had lugs machined into receiver body and the bolt nose bore was provided by a separate component. Gen 2 receiver body now has the lug abutments and bolt nose bore provided by the same component so the axis for the lugs and bolt nose are common. Accomplishing this wasn't easy. I also added an Anti-Rotation feature that keeps the bolt nose true about it's axis while raising the bolt handle. New articulated bolt release design to allow further rearward movement of bolt so longer unfired magnum cartridges can be extracted and ejected.

Bolt Body: Removed threaded interface for shroud because there was no torque applied between shroud and bolt body (old Remington DNA because this platform was originally supposed to be the re-introduced Remington 40X before we wrapped Vudoo around the design). Created better concentric alignment between shroud and bolt body and created a lug locking system to allow tool-less disassembly of the bolt assembly. Eliminated pinned interface to attach bolt body and improved concentric alignment between bolt nose and bolt body. Added locking lug system between bolt nose and bolt body to allow tool-less disassembly of bolt assembly. Added channel for new bolt stop to ride in while opening and closing the bolt, bolt stop no longer engages left lug (looking forward) to stop rearward movement of bolt.

Bolt Nose: Added bolt stop surface for new articulated bolt release. Added channel for Anti-Rotation pin to ride in as bolt moves fore an aft. Removed pin groove and added locking lugs to engage features in bolt body for tool-less disassembly.

Shroud: Completely nuked the remaining Remington DNA and went to a new cocking piece which now resides in a pocket in the enclosed shroud and use a single locking lug to engage features in the back of the bolt body. Much improved concentric alignment with the bolt body.

Firing Pin: Removed pinned interface for tired Remington cocking piece design, added threads for new cocking piece. Rear of firing pin protrudes through shroud and has a hole for unlocking shroud from the bolt body. For those with enough hand strength, the hole isn't necessary. For those needing a little leverage, a simple pin punch can be used to unlock the shroud. New for Vudoo Crescent Impact tip.

Firing Pin Spring: Since the improvements in the bolt assembly yielded my goals to reduce/eliminate drag, I designed a new firing pin spring that's approached a little differently than what's typical. The new spring has a lower rate but the system as a whole provides more energy. Due to the lower rate, the felt resistance while raising the bolt handle is reduced. Most of this work happened while designing the V-22S because it's a three lug and I didn't want the typical heavy bolt lift and I was able to move the revisions into the V-22M.

Cocking Piece: Part of all the work to reduce/eliminate drag required yet another study on triggers and to provide consistency in ignition, the variation from one trigger to another, one brand to another had to be dealt with, so I reached out to Flavio Fare in Italy. I worked closely with his Son, Fabio (I know, you're now wondering about all the Harlequin novel covers) and in a short amount of time emailed SolidWorks models. The result is two new Vudoo triggers for BR and Repeater use that have a vertical sear face instead of the 60 degree angled face. No more upward force on the back of the bolt body and I'll stop here so we don't go down all the rabbit holes about this.

It's important to note that we cannot "update" the Gen 1 V-22 to these new features. Part of doing what we do is to continually push ourselves and the industry and what I've written above is the result. This type of progression should be considered normal for anyone or any company that makes a claim to be "innovative" and clearly, Rimfire World wins again.

MB

@RAVAGE88 Thank you (yet again) Mike!

My question is completely, 100% selfish as someone who is ready to pull the trigger on a regular V-22 but concerned that I'm getting caught in the middle of a design change.... i.e. Gen 1 V22 will be phased out completely to make way for a Gen 2 V22 .22lr in the near future.

The Gen 1 V-22 is likely way more rifle than I need and will likely shoot better than I do, but my fear is spending all the money on a design that is about to be phased out.... I probably just need to shut up and call you guys to order a V-22 and not worry about this

 

[Hellbender]

Mike, you mentioned you could do a v 1.2 conversion on our older V22 bolts. Mine shoots so good now that I don't see anyway it could shoot "better", as the gun will shoot better than the current ammo available (or me...LOL!)

So as to any advantage to me personally......will the conversion lower the bolt lift force because of the lower FP spring pressure?? That's the only real advantage I can think of.

 

[Electric B]

Will the Gen 2’s be the same price as the current Gen 1’s.
Thanks

 

[rick137]

Great question Rick. I've tested various thread types for firearms use and what I found is they all do the same thing with the proper amount of torque applied when two faces come together but only if various aspects of the thread are proper. Fit/class and torque are the key elements and in the absence of torque, fit/class isn't enough to make threads a good idea.

There's a reason the Vudoo has no cold bore flier issues and to share a little of the secret sauce here, you should take a look at other rimfire platforms with pinned or slip fit/collapsing diameter type barrel interface conventions and you'll see a platform with cold bore flier problems, regardless of whose name is on it. Want to know why BR rifles don't typically provide repeatability and require some number of shots to "settle in?" Take a look at the thread tenon on the barrel and the amount of torque applied to attach it to the receiver.

Threads in a firearm are only effective when certain protocols are used to deploy them.

MB

MB:

As always thanks for the intel. Your phrase "only if the various aspects of the thread are proper" is what my high school English teacher would say is "deliciously vague" but a complete explanation would probably would more time than you have or is part of the secret sauce. Is it correct to say that the proper threads are the best solution to barrel-receiver coupling when properly deployed?

In the video from the Lapua Testing Center the testor stated it usually/always? takes about ten rounds to "warm up the barrel." Perhaps it has nothing to do with temperature. Perhaps more relevant are one or both "firearms truths": (1). Fouling shots are required after cleaning a barrel; (2). When switching from one type of ammunition to another the barrel requires a certain number of shots to "adjust "to the new ammunition.

I trust people understand the price of Continuous Quality Improvement is a certain amount of obsolescence. If a Gen 1 Vudoo meets your needs, why care about Gen 2? Great advice that I will not take.

Rick

 

[bjay]

Mike, you mentioned you could do a v 1.2 conversion on our older V22 bolts. Mine shoots so good now that I don't see anyway it could shoot "better", as the gun will shoot better than the current ammo available (or me...LOL!)

So as to any advantage to me personally......will the conversion lower the bolt lift force because of the lower FP spring pressure?? That's the only real advantage I can think of.

I hope the gen 1.2 bolt would work with gen action.id like to get couple..my v22 shoots great but just so i can sleep better at night

 

[RAVAGE88]

Mike, you mentioned you could do a v 1.2 conversion on our older V22 bolts. Mine shoots so good now that I don't see anyway it could shoot "better", as the gun will shoot better than the current ammo available (or me...LOL!)

So as to any advantage to me personally......will the conversion lower the bolt lift force because of the lower FP spring pressure?? That's the only real advantage I can think of.

The bolt lift won't be lighter if we do a 1.2 update in your Gen 1 action because the other features of the Gen 2 won't be present.

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

I hope the gen 1.2 bolt would work with gen action.id like to get couple..my v22 shoots great but just so i can sleep better at night

The 1.2 works well but not a lot to be gained in the Gen 1 action.

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

MB:

As always thanks for the intel. Your phrase "only if the various aspects of the thread are proper" is what my high school English teacher would say is "deliciously vague" but a complete explanation would probably would more time than you have or is part of the secret sauce. Is it correct to say that the proper threads are the best solution to barrel-receiver coupling when properly deployed?

In the video from the Lapua Testing Center the testor stated it usually/always? takes about ten rounds to "warm up the barrel." Perhaps it has nothing to do with temperature. Perhaps more relevant are one or both "firearms truths": (1). Fouling shots are required after cleaning a barrel; (2). When switching from one type of ammunition to another a certain number of shots the barrel requires a certain number of shots to adjust to the new ammunition.

I trust people understand the price of Continuous Quality Improvement is a certain amount of obsolescence. If a Gen 1 Vudoo meets your needs, why care about Gen 2? Great advice that I will not take.

Rick

Yes, proper threads with the right amount of torque are the best solution to the barrel/receiver interface.

In the Vudoo, the approach at the testing center has more to do with number two above as I believe most rifles show up not cleaned, but I'm not 100% certain about this. Overall, the two outlines you provided are basically spot on.

Thanks again Rick, I really enjoy our dialogue here,
MB

 

[Night Assassin]

I hope the gen 1.2 bolt would work with gen action.id like to get couple..my v22 shoots great but just so i can sleep better at night

I have my rifle going in for some work, getting the cone breech update and I decided while it is there to get the 1.2 fire control update.
I'll post an update once received

 

[flatland1]

It'll be interesting to hear from a few owners who are going ahead with the V 1.2 fire control system. I wouldn't mind doing one of the three V22s I have, to see if the 90* cocking piece, Flavio trigger, and crescent impact firing pin combine to make enough improvements to be consistently noticeable on target. But in my opinion, the ammo I currently have on hand (known excellent lots of SK Rifle Match & Lapua Center-X) is probably going to be the limiting factor - along with my lack of ability to out-shoot the accuracy these rifles are already capable of producing. IOW, I kind of feel like sending back even one of my bolts would be a waste of both Mike's & my time. Instead, I'll likely wait to receive the V22S BR/F-Class action I've spoken for, and see how it compares to the V22s I already have. Edited to line through all the features I mistakenly believed come with the updated fire control. Thanks for straightening me out on that Mike!

 

[RAVAGE88]

It'll be interesting to hear from a few owners who are going ahead with the V 1.2 fire control system. I wouldn't mind doing one of the three V22s I have, to see if the 90* cocking piece, Flavio trigger, and crescent impact firing pin combine to make enough improvements to be consistently noticeable on target. But in my opinion, the ammo I currently have on hand (known excellent lots of SK Rifle Match & Lapua Center-X) is probably going to be the limiting factor - along with my lack of ability to out-shoot the accuracy these rifles are already capable of producing. IOW, I kind of feel like sending back even one of my bolts would be a waste of both Mike's & my time. Instead, I'll likely wait to receive the V22S BR/F-Class action I've spoken for, and see how it compares to the V22s I already have.

Flat, the 1.2 doesn’t have the crescent impact or the vertical sear.

MB

 

[eldritch]

If only rimfire ammunition could be constructed to the same level as Vudoos, THEN we would really be in business!! I had never dreamed that I would ever spend what I have on my V-22 on ANY .22lr, but having spent time behind it, I have No regrets at all.

 

[jinxx4ever]

my second vudoo arrived today. Got it mounted in the MPA chassis. Hopefully tomorrow's shooting weather. Everything's covered with a solid sheet of ice today. Enough trouble just to not fall on one's ass.

 

[RAVAGE88]

MB

 

[bjay]

MB

Ty mike..
Nice sweater

 

[rick137]

MB:

Since you will be visiting/hanging at Manners booth, I hope you can convince them to adapt their F-Class stock to the Vudoo 22S. On the Manner's website the F-Class stock shown is downright garish. Of course one man's garish is another man's vibrant. Perhaps such a color scheme helps identify your rifle at a match. Fair dinkum as long as one option is matte black, my choice of color or more accurately absence of color. Zero-Dark-Thirty and all that.

Could said stock by made with pillars already incorporated? It does try one's patience to wait a lifetime plus 16 days for a Manner's stock then another period of time to have the action bedded. The price to be paid?

Rick

 

[flatland1]

rick137 - I'm on the list to receive one of the V22S actions, and have a Bartlein blank on order. Am looking at various stocks to use on this project; will likely shoot quite a bit more F-Class style matches than BR, but would like whatever stock I go with to be suitable for both. Will take a look at Manners' website, as even though I own 10 of their stocks, I've never looked at that one.

 

[rick137]

rick137 - I'm on the list to receive one of the V22S actions, and have a Bartlein blank on order. Am looking at various stocks to use on this project; will likely shoot quite a bit more F-Class style matches than BR, but would like whatever stock I go with to be suitable for both. Will take a look at Manners' website, as even though I own 10 of their stocks, I've never looked at that one.

Just be sure to wear sunglasses.

 

[SCRAM2013]

I have to admit to NOT reading this thread until now.

I have been looking at premium 22lr for a little bit. I sent a PM to #RAVAGE88 this AM expecting to hear later next week.

He has corresponded with me throughout the day...on Sunday...his personal time...talking to a nobody that could be FOS. I bet customer service is A 1.

I'm going to see how long the waiting list is?

E

 

[BB3]

I have to admit to NOT reading this thread until now.

I have been looking at premium 22lr for a little bit. I sent a PM to #RAVAGE88 this AM expecting to hear later next week.

He has corresponded with me throughout the day...on Sunday...his personal time...talking to a nobody that could be FOS. I bet customer service is A 1.

I'm going to see how long the waiting list is?

E

It doesn’t matter how long the list. It’s well worth the wait! Actually I don’t think it’s been too bad lately. Mike and everyone at VGW are top notch people that are more than eager to answer your questions. You won’t find customer service like this anywhere in this business or any other industry as far as I‘m concerned.

 

[SCRAM2013]

I'm hoping no one wants what I like and one might be "on the shelf"

I'm probably naive.

Either way, I have much respect for his comms on a Sunday. Impressed.

E

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

This was an neat test. Tried 4 different muzzle devices and a bare muzzle with the same ammo in 10 shot groups.

Rifle was sighted in using a Sparrow suppressor as that is what I had on there from a match a while back. Point of aim is the center of each bull, standard ARA target where center circle is 1/2" diameter shot at 50 yards. Center-x lapua ammo

Left group is aluminum vias style brake (incorrectly labelled as "thread protector" on target), then 3 different suppressors, then bare muzzle, then 2 of the suppressors again. Interesting to note how the groups move around


As tested, Kukri contour V22 early barrel in MPA chassis, Athlon Cronos 4.5-29x with NF rings 20 moa base Timney 710 single set at 2lbs


EDIT ADD 1/20/2020:

Pic of vias style brake (the "thread protector" in first left column) 1.9 oz, SpectreII 7.7 oz, Mask and Sparrow both at 6.9 oz weight.

 

[Sieg]

With and without the thread protector somewhat confirms other speculation I've seen with Ruger .22's with and without thread protectors. Opportunity and engineering challenge to design a thread protector with it's own crown?

 

[SCRAM2013]

Thread protectors....

I do not understand.

E

 

[rick137]

This was an neat test. Tried 4 different muzzle devices and a bare muzzle with the same ammo in 10 shot groups.

Rifle was sighted in using a Sparrow suppressor as that is what I had on there from a match a while back. Point of aim is the center of each bull, standard ARA target where center circle is 1/2" diameter shot at 50 yards. Center-x lapua ammo

Left group is aluminum vias style brake, then 3 different suppressors, then bare muzzle, then 2 of the suppressors again. Interesting to note how the groups move around


As tested, Kukri contour V22 early barrel in MPA chassis, Athlon Cronos 4.5-27x with NF rings 20 moa base Timney 710 single set at 2lbs

TS:

Good test. Few more details if you please. Prone or bench? Front bipod? Rear bag tactical or competition? Winds calm throughout the test? Was it a cold clean barrel to start? No cleaning during test?

Rick

 

[DFC]

That test is a prime example of the difference in suppressors and their design. I would venture to say the design using forward porting (mouse holes) is affecting the low velocity 22 RF bullet. I don't remember the velocity of expanding gas but do remember it is a lot faster than a RF bullet.

 

[phlegethon]

With and without the thread protector somewhat confirms other speculation I've seen with Ruger .22's with and without thread protectors. Opportunity and engineering challenge to design a thread protector with it's own crown?

I didn’t see anything in that test with and without a thread protector. Certainly we would expect any threaded device to alter barrel harmonics because of the weight, and the suppressors could also affect gas flow in a way that affects the bullet. I’m not sure how a thread protector could have a crown unless it had a segment of rifling, and I’m also not sure what the point would be. Either way you will have to match the ammunition to the rifle.

 

[Sieg]

I didn’t see anything in that test with and without a thread protector. Certainly we would expect any threaded device to alter barrel harmonics because of the weight, and the suppressors could also affect gas flow in a way that affects the bullet. I’m not sure how a thread protector could have a crown unless it had a segment of rifling, and I’m also not sure what the point would be. Either way you will have to match the ammunition to the rifle.

Left side of both targets blue boxes. I've done my own tests with and with protectors and suppressors both have influenced POI and groups sizes. Does the thread protector possibly create turbulence at the bullet leaves the muzzle? Can those influences be minimized?

 

[Tree]

Left side of both targets blue boxes. I've done my own tests with and with protectors and suppressors both have influenced POI and groups sizes. Does the thread protector possibly create turbulence at the bullet leaves the muzzle? Can those influences be minimized?

I have done similar tests and mine resulted in a different outcome. Best groups were thread protector only. I also think the only way to truly determine effect would be to shoot it somewhere where there is no ability for environmental conditions to effect the bullet along with the gun being in a “vise” to negate shooter effect. How does a persons bias of how they want to shoot there rifle effect how much they concentrate and ensure proper fundamentals for one combination Vs another?

 

[rick137]

Harold Vaughn discussed one effect given there is a transition zone, i.e. the zone from the muzzle to the position down range where the bullet is travelling faster than the gas and ejecta. Given DFC's comments RF ammo has a transition zone. If the base of the bullet is not radially symmetric and perpendicular to the longitudinal axis and the gas and ejecta do not have a radially symmetric flow pattern, presumably because of the crown, then dispersion will occur. Hopefully thread protectors are manufactured with same care as crowns and hopefully have not been inadvertently damaged.

Perhaps the closest to a Test Center is a benchrest set-up and shooting when dispersion due to environmental conditions is minimal to non-existent.

 

[phlegethon]

Left side of both targets blue boxes. I've done my own tests with and with protectors and suppressors both have influenced POI and groups sizes. Does the thread protector possibly create turbulence at the bullet leaves the muzzle? Can those influences be minimized?

OK I see what you mean about the targets. However I still think the only way a thread protector is going to affect groups is by the weight. All of my thread protectors are well outside the crown and nearly flush with it such that the airflow would be identical.

 

[2Barrels]

2 things . . . 1) I thought suppressors were thread protectors.

2) and based on a video that was linked in this thread (I believe) that was shot at the Lapua test facility using a Vudoo, I might suggest that one warm the barrel up with a 10 (or more) shot string. Based on what I gathered from the video, this is standard procedure at Lapua.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

TS:

Good test. Few more details if you please. Prone or bench? Front bipod? Rear bag tactical or competition? Winds calm throughout the test? Was it a cold clean barrel to start? No cleaning during test?

Rick

Shot indoors 50yard known good lot of center-x from a 1 piece rest I use for benchrest matches. Barrel and chamber were cleaned and checked for carbon ring prior to 112 rounds shot at a match with sparrow suppressor installed for that match. 4 days later Rifle then taken to indoor range and zero verified and warmed up with 10 rounds on separate throw away target (not pictured). Sparrow suppressor then removed and vias style brake installed and test proceeded as previously described. No cleaning between match and this target or during test.

tuner testing anschutz 1710 HB with same rest at same range


roller bearing head installed on one piece rest


My take away from this is you are seeing tuning barrel harmonics effect and the barrel likes 6.9 oz of extra weight on the muzzle. I'm going to machine up a 6.9 oz brass weight and thread it on an see if results are similar some time in the future. I really tried to exert the same amount of torque when installing the different devices, but it was all done by hand so I'm sure there is some variation between them on this. This test was done with the attempt of removing as much human input or error as possible.

 

[flatland1]

Concerning turbulence at the muzzle - several years ago, while reading about the way Anschutz NA Custom Shop does their muzzle threading, I noted that they counterbore the threaded portion. I guess their thinking was that any tendency of the bore dia to grow/expand OR shrink/contract when the tenon is cut would be negated, since that counterbored portion would no longer be touching the bullet. So when I did the first three bbls for my two CMP 40Xs that jelrod converted into repeaters, and my 1st V22, I counterbored the .476" long tenon for mounting a SWR Spectre II suppressor. A year later, in a discussion with JBell, it was suggested that there could possibly be some turbulence due to gas in that counterbored area that might possibly be having an effect on bullets as they transitioned through that area at the muzzle. I thought there was enough merit to his suggestion to make it worthwhile to cut one of these bbls back and re-thread w/o doing the counterbore, and did so on a 22" Krieger sendero contour bbl on my 40XB. Did some shooting on paper right before cutting the old threads off & re-threading, and again ASAP afterwards. Group sizes were slightly smaller & somewhat more consistent. Nothing really proved, but for sure NOT counterboring after threading didn't hurt accuracy. After that, I went on and did the same thing with Benchmark 3-groove & Lilja Titebore bbls that had been counterbored, and the consensus is that accuracy was slightly improved by doing away with the counterbore. So much for being a copy-cat and following along with Anschutz...

 

[AMTGMC]

rick137 - I'm on the list to receive one of the V22S actions, and have a Bartlein blank on order. Am looking at various stocks to use on this project; will likely shoot quite a bit more F-Class style matches than BR, but would like whatever stock I go with to be suitable for both. Will take a look at Manners' website, as even though I own 10 of their stocks, I've never looked at that one.

Kelby's may have a couple for you to take a look at, the KTS and 1M.

 

[rick137]

Shot indoors 50yard known good lot of center-x from a 1 piece rest I use for benchrest matches. Barrel and chamber were cleaned and checked for carbon ring prior to 112 rounds shot at a match with sparrow suppressor installed for that match. 4 days later Rifle then taken to indoor range and zero verified and warmed up with 10 rounds on separate throw away target (not pictured). Sparrow suppressor then removed and vias style brake installed and test proceeded as previously described. No cleaning between match and this target or during test.

tuner testing anschutz 1710 HB with same rest at same range


roller bearing head installed on one piece rest


My take away from this is you are seeing tuning barrel harmonics effect and the barrel likes 6.9 oz of extra weight on the muzzle. I'm going to machine up a 6.9 oz brass weight and thread it on an see if results are similar some time in the future. I really tried to exert the same amount of torque when installing the different devices, but it was all done by hand so I'm sure there is some variation between them on this. This test was done with the attempt of removing as much human input or error as possible.

T-S:

In the photo there was a string around the buttpad. Did you shoot free recoil? Also appears you had a slider plate on the forend and no side bags on the rest, so was all the support at forend metal on metal? Did you lubricate the metal? Did it take experimentation to determine the optimal side force on the plate?

Other than at the Lapua Test Center, I have not seen any testing comparable to yours for reproducibility. Good show. It would be interesting to compare the dispersion in your results to those at the LTC. If we assume the ammunition causes all or at least most of the dispersion in the groups, what does that imply about the consistency of ammunition in a 10 round sample size? The variation in CTC with the thread protector is +0.29"/-0.19" from the 4 group average and +0.10"/-0.09" from the 2 group average with the bare muzzle. If these results apply to other weapon systems, then benchrest competition is a crapshoot given the wind is not a factor. Pick your ammunition Gentlemen and Good Luck.

A most interesting question is how does ammunition inconsistency degrade accuracy? One cause for certain is variation in muzzle velocity but how much vertical dispersion at 50 yd does this cause for rimfire ammunition? Another for certain in deviations in bullet mass, bullet inhomogeneity, or non-radially symmetric bullet geometry due to manufacturing, handling, and poor quality chambers and throats.

What about differences in the horizontal and vertical components of the barrel flexural vibration from differences in energy released and the rate at which energy is released? That is, the variation of pressure with time and space from differences in energy released and the rate at which it is released. Differences in energy released from different amounts of powder or variations in physical and chemical properties of powder from round to round? Differences in rate of release due to who-knows-what primer variables.? Does anyone know how rimfire primers are made? My understanding the process is highly proprietary.

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

A question for the Vudoo owners out there. If you use a chronograph, do you find any correlation between velocity and group size (accuracy) from your Vudoo's? If there is a relationship between these two variables, could you please describe it?

Thanks!

 

[Tree]

A question for the Vudoo owners out there. If you use a chronograph, do you find any correlation between velocity and group size (accuracy) from your Vudoo's? If there is a relationship between these two variables, could you please describe it?

Thanks!

I have not seen velocity correlate to accuracy. Most match ammo is in the same velocity range for the most part. I have found it’s specific to ammo more than a velocity.

 

[Hellbender]

At 400 yards, my groups are 4 to 5" wide and 10 to 12" tall (in perfect conditions)...This is from velocity variations in the same lot of ammo.

For details on what you are looking for, read this thread....

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/200-yards-with-rimfire.6928541/

If you mean velocity correlation to accuracy (does a 1020 fps load shoot better than a 1060 fps load) then Tree is correct.

 

[flatland1]

I bought into a rather poor lot of Lapua Polar Biathlon a couple of years ago. The ES & Sd of this particular lot were bad enough so that I could easily hear what I'd describe as a major difference in report, even shooting with good suppressors attached. What made it so easy to hear was that I'd set up my portable bench in the south end of a 215yd long feedlot alley, both sides lined with concrete feed bunks. That lot of PB printed 10-shot 'groups' on steel targets over 12" tall, and about 6" wide. The fastest rounds were doing well over 1100fps, while the 'duds' were down around 1070fps. Shooting a good lot of SK Rifle Match or Lapua Center-X at 200yds in good conditions usually produces groups of 3.5"-4" out of Krieger, Bartlein, and Shilen bbls on 40XB, V22, & CZ457 actions, and both types average around 1055fps.

 

[10ring1]

This was an neat test. Tried 4 different muzzle devices and a bare muzzle with the same ammo in 10 shot groups.

Rifle was sighted in using a Sparrow suppressor as that is what I had on there from a match a while back. Point of aim is the center of each bull, standard ARA target where center circle is 1/2" diameter shot at 50 yards. Center-x lapua ammo

Left group is aluminum vias style brake (incorrectly labelled as "thread protector" on target), then 3 different suppressors, then bare muzzle, then 2 of the suppressors again. Interesting to note how the groups move around


As tested, Kukri contour V22 early barrel in MPA chassis, Athlon Cronos 4.5-29x with NF rings 20 moa base Timney 710 single set at 2lbs


EDIT ADD 1/20/2020:

Pic of vias style brake (the "thread protector" in first left column) 1.9 oz, SpectreII 7.7 oz, Mask and Sparrow both at 6.9 oz weight.

That sparrow is hammering. I tried a similar test when I first got mine (basically same setup except in Grayboe stock). The bare muzzle was much more consistent at 100 yds across all ammo types over the suppressor (AAC pilot). Great report and thanks for sharing

 

[AirGunShawn]

Shot indoors 50yard known good lot of center-x from a 1 piece rest I use for benchrest matches. Barrel and chamber were cleaned and checked for carbon ring prior to 112 rounds shot at a match with sparrow suppressor installed for that match. 4 days later Rifle then taken to indoor range and zero verified and warmed up with 10 rounds on separate throw away target (not pictured). Sparrow suppressor then removed and vias style brake installed and test proceeded as previously described. No cleaning between match and this target or during test.

tuner testing anschutz 1710 HB with same rest at same range


roller bearing head installed on one piece rest


My take away from this is you are seeing tuning barrel harmonics effect and the barrel likes 6.9 oz of extra weight on the muzzle. I'm going to machine up a 6.9 oz brass weight and thread it on an see if results are similar some time in the future. I really tried to exert the same amount of torque when installing the different devices, but it was all done by hand so I'm sure there is some variation between them on this. This test was done with the attempt of removing as much human input or error as possible.

That roller bearing head looks hot !!

Shot indoors 50yard known good lot of center-x from a 1 piece rest I use for benchrest matches. Barrel and chamber were cleaned and checked for carbon ring prior to 112 rounds shot at a match with sparrow suppressor installed for that match. 4 days later Rifle then taken to indoor range and zero verified and warmed up with 10 rounds on separate throw away target (not pictured). Sparrow suppressor then removed and vias style brake installed and test proceeded as previously described. No cleaning between match and this target or during test.

tuner testing anschutz 1710 HB with same rest at same range


roller bearing head installed on one piece rest


My take away from this is you are seeing tuning barrel harmonics effect and the barrel likes 6.9 oz of extra weight on the muzzle. I'm going to machine up a 6.9 oz brass weight and thread it on an see if results are similar some time in the future. I really tried to exert the same amount of torque when installing the different devices, but it was all done by hand so I'm sure there is some variation between them on this. This test was done with the attempt of removing as much human input or error as possible.

I'm just a little jealous of your shooting range and the shop you must have to make your roller / sled system.
Kudos to you.....

 

[AirGunShawn]

T-S:

In the photo there was a string around the buttpad. Did you shoot free recoil? Also appears you had a slider plate on the forend and no side bags on the rest, so was all the support at forend metal on metal? Did you lubricate the metal? Did it take experimentation to determine the optimal side force on the plate?

Other than at the Lapua Test Center, I have not seen any testing comparable to yours for reproducibility. Good show. It would be interesting to compare the dispersion in your results to those at the LTC. If we assume the ammunition causes all or at least most of the dispersion in the groups, what does that imply about the consistency of ammunition in a 10 round sample size? The variation in CTC with the thread protector is +0.29"/-0.19" from the 4 group average and +0.10"/-0.09" from the 2 group average with the bare muzzle. If these results apply to other weapon systems, then benchrest competition is a crapshoot given the wind is not a factor. Pick your ammunition Gentlemen and Good Luck.

A most interesting question is how does ammunition inconsistency degrade accuracy? One cause for certain is variation in muzzle velocity but how much vertical dispersion at 50 yd does this cause for rimfire ammunition? Another for certain in deviations in bullet mass, bullet inhomogeneity, or non-radially symmetric bullet geometry due to manufacturing, handling, and poor quality chambers and throats.

What about differences in the horizontal and vertical components of the barrel flexural vibration from differences in energy released and the rate at which energy is released? That is, the variation of pressure with time and space from differences in energy released and the rate at which it is released. Differences in energy released from different amounts of powder or variations in physical and chemical properties of powder from round to round? Differences in rate of release due to who-knows-what primer variables.? Does anyone know how rimfire primers are made? My understanding the process is highly proprietary.

T-S:

In the photo there was a string around the buttpad. Did you shoot free recoil? Also appears you had a slider plate on the forend and no side bags on the rest, so was all the support at forend metal on metal? Did you lubricate the metal? Did it take experimentation to determine the optimal side force on the plate?

Other than at the Lapua Test Center, I have not seen any testing comparable to yours for reproducibility. Good show. It would be interesting to compare the dispersion in your results to those at the LTC. If we assume the ammunition causes all or at least most of the dispersion in the groups, what does that imply about the consistency of ammunition in a 10 round sample size? The variation in CTC with the thread protector is +0.29"/-0.19" from the 4 group average and +0.10"/-0.09" from the 2 group average with the bare muzzle. If these results apply to other weapon systems, then benchrest competition is a crapshoot given the wind is not a factor. Pick your ammunition Gentlemen and Good Luck.

A most interesting question is how does ammunition inconsistency degrade accuracy? One cause for certain is variation in muzzle velocity but how much vertical dispersion at 50 yd does this cause for rimfire ammunition? Another for certain in deviations in bullet mass, bullet inhomogeneity, or non-radially symmetric bullet geometry due to manufacturing, handling, and poor quality chambers and throats.

What about differences in the horizontal and vertical components of the barrel flexural vibration from differences in energy released and the rate at which energy is released? That is, the variation of pressure with time and space from differences in energy released and the rate at which it is released. Differences in energy released from different amounts of powder or variations in physical and chemical properties of powder from round to round? Differences in rate of release due to who-knows-what primer variables.? Does anyone know how rimfire primers are made? My understanding the process is highly proprietary.

Hi Rick,
I just glanced at the sled that TS has but I would guess that the green string is actually shock cord. It looks like he has some yellow shock cord in the front as well. Also a front plate appears to be attached to the rifle and that the rifle sits on top of a plate that rolls for and aft in the front roller bed and guided on both sides by rollers and he uses no lubrication to speak of. It looks like he has some round polymer guides or fences for the rear stock and the rear of the stock is fitted with a white polymer guide to keep things level. Something like Delrin would be my guess. I'm thinking that the rifle slides straight back in the sled. I suspect that an unseen benefit that TS gets from his sled is that he is supremely confident in his ammo and sighting before going to a match. If I had a shop, It is exactly what I would do.

Feinwerkbau of Germany ( FWB ) came out with something called the sledge system for their Olympic air guns probably in the 70s and they were absolutely dominate for something like fifteen years.

I hate what this clown in the YouTube did to his FWB 300 but it does show how the sledge system works. In it's case, the lower half of the receiver is bolted to the stock and the upper half is allowed to slide rewards on three pins. By the time the upper slides all the way to the rear, the pellet has left the bbl. so any recoil does not affect the pellet flight in any way. I really don't know why someone has not adopted that approach on RF. The guy is not bragging about his accuracy at all. Those guns will shoot through the same hole. The newer way that they use to determine scoring in the Olympics is with electronic scoring.

Electronic scoring system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The last I heard, years ago, they were using sound triangulation. It is much better for the people watching.

Shawn Carroll

 

[22fun]

View attachment 6958811

FINALLY got my ETR for my Vudoo and put it together. Federal Match is right at 3/4 MOA out of a brand new barrel. Looking forward to trying other brands shortly, but MAN this thing is awesome! Been wearing out my 100yd KYL rack this afternoon (thanks @sturkis ), it doesn't get better than this! Thanks to all at Vudoo!

What size rings are you using? I’m looking at getting the ares.

 

[AirGunShawn]

What size rings are you using? I’m looking at getting the ares.

If your considering an ARES, would you be better off getting a Cronus? I have both. My V-22 has a Trijicon
5-50x56 SFP on her as does my CZ 457 MTR. My Athlons are relegated to my Annies and below.
In truth, I would never buy anything below an ARES again. I have at least six Athlons in total and I can only tolerate the two top ones. I especially dislike those 1/4 MOA clicks. :-(
EDIT: The Trijicon has a 34mm tube.

 

[kabarNC]

What size rings are you using? I’m looking at getting the ares.

ARC M10 34mm mediums..

 

[rick137]

Hi Rick,
I just glanced at the sled that TS has but I would guess that the green string is actually shock cord. It looks like he has some yellow shock cord in the front as well. Also a front plate appears to be attached to the rifle and that the rifle sits on top of a plate that rolls for and aft in the front roller bed and guided on both sides by rollers and he uses no lubrication to speak of. It looks like he has some round polymer guides or fences for the rear stock and the rear of the stock is fitted with a white polymer guide to keep things level. Something like Delrin would be my guess. I'm thinking that the rifle slides straight back in the sled. I suspect that an unseen benefit that TS gets from his sled is that he is supremely confident in his ammo and sighting before going to a match. If I had a shop, It is exactly what I would do.

Feinwerkbau of Germany ( FWB ) came out with something called the sledge system for their Olympic air guns probably in the 70s and they were absolutely dominate for something like fifteen years.

I hate what this clown in the YouTube did to his FWB 300 but it does show how the sledge system works. In it's case, the lower half of the receiver is bolted to the stock and the upper half is allowed to slide rewards on three pins. By the time the upper slides all the way to the rear, the pellet has left the bbl. so any recoil does not affect the pellet flight in any way. I really don't know why someone has not adopted that approach on RF. The guy is not bragging about his accuracy at all. Those guns will shoot through the same hole. The newer way that they use to determine scoring in the Olympics is with electronic scoring.

Electronic scoring system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The last I heard, years ago, they were using sound triangulation. It is much better for the people watching.

Shawn Carroll

Shawn:

T-S started a conversation with me. Your description is spot-on. With his range dispersion due to environmental effects is mighty small, probably insignificant. With his support system the frictional resistance to the recoil must be mighty low so the tracking is phenomenal. Definitely kudos to T-S.

Rick