Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

[Yasherka]

I am going to look at a John Deere 310C backhoe tomorrow, I've already looked at it once but I may make an offer. I just don't want to get taken on the price. Was wondering if one of you guys could give me some advice on price and anything else to look at.

It's an '88 model 2WD with just over 8000 hours on the meter. No cracks or welds and with the exception of a couple drips from a hose at the base of the boom, the hydraulics are tight. There is some slop in the mechanical portions, most notably in the loader portion, but it would seem normal in a TLB of this vintage. It is a normal boom, not an extend-a-hoe.

The engine is a strong turbo-diesel. There does not appear to be any excessive or white smoke, and it started easily when I first looked at it Monday.

It has a full cab, but two of the windows are held on with tape, they are not cracked. The interior is merely OK and most of the control arm boots will need to be replaced...possibly along with the seat.

The company is asking $13,500, based on my market research I would start by offering $10,500...does that sound like a reasonable start point or should I go lower/higher?

Also, what are some areas I should look at that I have not mentioned?

 

[MtnCreek]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, what are some areas I should look at that I have not mentioned?</div></div>

8000 hrs is a lot. Try picking up the rear of the hoe and see how responsive it is and if the hyd pump whines.

 

[Guest]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

That machine, in that condition around here, would only bring 5-6K at auction.
Did you feel the engine block to be sure it was stone cold, before you started it?

 

[crumpmd]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

Yeh I was gonna say start at 8K and make 10K your max. If you lose hydraulics, fuel pump or anything you will be quickly into JD for 2K for repairs.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

You have to trust your judgement. Look at how many of the hoses if any are original. How long has it been sitting?

As mentioned, 8k hrs is a lot but, depending on how it was maintained and what it did for those hours means more. Do you know the history of the machine or the previous owner? Any maintenance records?

Also mentioned, push down with the buckets and see if it has any trouble lifting itself.

How are the tires?

I was in your position a year ago and looked at several machines over a long period before I found the right one. If you are going to keep this machine, then don't settle. If it is not exactly what you want for what you want to spend, keep looking. I passed on cheaper machines that didn't have the features I wanted.

ETA, If at all possible I would recommend a 4 in 1 front bucket.


Is this it?

http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8892769

 

[Maggot]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

While JD does make good equipment dont be afraid to look at a Case, also good stuff. As stated above, thats a lot of hours, and any machine 25 years old is going to have some issues. As Gunfighter said, Id start lower, 7-8K and top out at around 10-11K. Deisels are not cheap to work on. When you lift it by te bucket have a friend look at the hydraulic fittings and hoses to see if any of them ooze or squirt while under pressure.

Good luck.

 

[SHWILL]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

$8,000 tops. I have seen people with backhoes of that vintage that could not give them away. Make sure that you are not buying something just to work on all the time.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

If you are serious about it, don't be afraid to ask someone with more experience to go with you and look it over too, even if you have to pay them something. It would be money well spent.

 

[pwc001]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

$13,500 + 8000 hours = NO

That is way too high. We just sold a '93 300D with 6000+ hours for $10,000. We put all 6000 hours on it. I would say $8-9000 range. But I would need to look at it to determine price.

Even small break downs can be very costly, expecially when the dealer gets involve.

I would try and find something not as used, but what do you want it for, or did I miss that?

 

[wburke2010]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

I just talked to my father, we have been in the equipment rental business for 10 years and my father was a diesel mechanic and salesmen for john deere and all the other big names. It is all he has done for his whole life. Personally that machine has a lot of hours on it and is a really old machine. They would be lucky to get 5k for it in auction.

Has the engine been rebuilt?
What, if any parts have been replaced?

There is a lot of factors in a machine that old. if the pins have not been replaced in the arms they could be worn down and need replaced.

It also depends on who owned it and what they used it for.

Those are some questions that I would ask first, IMHO I would not pay over 6K for that machine. Even at that I think you can do better on a newer machine. IF you budget is 10k you can get more for your money on a newer tractor.

If you want to know anything or a few good auction sites to look at pm and I can help you out.

Walter

 

[pwc001]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wburke2010</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just talked to my father, we have been in the equipment rental business for 10 years and my father was a diesel mechanic and salesmen for john deere and all the other big names. It is all he has done for his whole life. Personally that machine has a lot of hours on it and is a really old machine. They would be lucky to get 5k for it in auction.

Has the engine been rebuilt?
What, if any parts have been replaced?

There is a lot of factors in a machine that old. if the pins have not been replaced in the arms they could be worn down and need replaced.

It also depends on who owned it and what they used it for.

Those are some questions that I would ask first, IMHO I would not pay over 6K for that machine. Even at that I think you can do better on a newer machine. IF you budget is 10k you can get more for your money on a newer tractor.

If you want to know anything or a few good auction sites to look at pm and I can help you out.

Walter </div></div>

I completely agree with this. My 8$-9000 range is top end, if it was in great condition. But I would pass on it.

 

[Yasherka]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

Lots of responses, thanks all for the input! As to the questions:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MtnCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try picking up the rear of the hoe and see how responsive it is and if the hyd pump whines. </div></div>

I was able to get it completely off the ground at idle using the outriggers and loader. No whining and the machine was still cold.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you feel the engine block to be sure it was stone cold, before you started it? </div></div>

It was cold. The machine had been sitting there for over a month and the only time it had been started was to move it from one side of the yard to the other. They weren't expecting to show, it was a spontaneous visit on my part and what I mentioned above was from a mechanic, not a sales guy.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you know the history of the machine or the previous owner? Any maintenance records?

How are the tires?

I was in your position a year ago and looked at several machines over a long period before I found the right one. If you are going to keep this machine, then don't settle.

ETA, If at all possible I would recommend a 4 in 1 front bucket.

Is this it?

http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8892769
</div></div>
Yep that's the one. Great advice and thank you! I don't know about the history of it, the mechanic I spoke with said the sales guy would have that info which is what I'll be checking into tomorrow. I looked at a '94 310D on New Years day and passed. It was pissing hydraulic fluid and had some nasty cracks on the "hood" (sorry, don't know the term) where the loader pivoted. They had been welded, then the cracks busted through the welds and kept on going. This one is head and shoulders above the 310D. The tires look good although the left front looks like it has a slow leak. Fronts are about 40% and rears about 70% based on my admittedly limited knowledge.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maggot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While JD does make good equipment dont be afraid to look at a Case,

Deisels are not cheap to work on. When you lift it by te bucket have a friend look at the hydraulic fittings and hoses to see if any of them ooze or squirt while under pressure.

Good luck. </div></div>

Thanks. Case and Cat machines are on my list, this one just happens to be A. Close, B. In my price range and C. Doesn't look like it was horribly abused. I looked underneath while asking the mechanic to get it off the ground, that's when I spotted the drips from the base of the boom. No leaks were evident anywhere else. I did a drive-by this afternoon and it is still parked in the same spot, so I'll check that area for puddles tomorrow. Also I'll be taking a ratty shirt so I can get underneath it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SHWILL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Make sure that you are not buying something just to work on all the time. </div></div>
Words of wisdom. I don't mind doing maintenance, but agree I don't need to spend all my time fixing it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwc001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$13,500 + 8000 hours = NO

I would try and find something not as used, but what do you want it for, or did I miss that? </div></div>

OK, I'm grateful for the input on actual value, that was the one thing I couldn't really get good info on (asking price vs. value). Four months ago I bought nearly 21 acres up in the Rockies. I will be using the hoe to improve the lot, leach field and septic, and foundation work for the buildings I want to put up. Also dig a shooting range.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wburke2010</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just talked to my father, we have been in the equipment rental business for 10 years and my father was a diesel mechanic and salesmen for john deere and all the other big names. It is all he has done for his whole life. Personally that machine has a lot of hours on it and is a really old machine. They would be lucky to get 5k for it in auction.

Has the engine been rebuilt?
What, if any parts have been replaced?

There is a lot of factors in a machine that old. if the pins have not been replaced in the arms they could be worn down and need replaced.

Walter </div></div>

BIG thanks. I'll be asking those questions tomorrow and will follow-up PM you about the sites you mentioned.

 

[ridgeback23]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

using on your 20 acre property i would def recommend a 4wd model!

 

[athhud]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

Don't just check hydraulics for function. Put them under load and leave them under load to check for bad seals (leak down). All of those areas with "mechanical slop," make note of them and then price replacement pins, bushings, etc. You may be surprised at what that junk costs! Drain fluid out of the hydraulic fluid reservoir. Check for sand, metal, and other "shouldn't be there" debris. With that many hours, I have to believe it was ran by someone who just got paid to burn time (state employee). Those people get to take a break when equipment breaks, so they make sure that it stays broken. I'd see what it would bring for scrap prices and wouldn't pay much more than twice that...

 

[pwc001]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have to trust your judgement. Look at how many of the hoses if any are original. How long has it been sitting?

As mentioned, 8k hrs is a lot but, depending on how it was maintained and what it did for those hours means more. Do you know the history of the machine or the previous owner? Any maintenance records?

Also mentioned, push down with the buckets and see if it has any trouble lifting itself.

How are the tires?

I was in your position a year ago and looked at several machines over a long period before I found the right one. If you are going to keep this machine, then don't settle. If it is not exactly what you want for what you want to spend, keep looking. I passed on cheaper machines that didn't have the features I wanted.

ETA, If at all possible I would recommend a 4 in 1 front bucket.


Is this it?

http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8892769
</div></div>

Could they have taken more shitty pictures?

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwc001</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have to trust your judgement. Look at how many of the hoses if any are original. How long has it been sitting?

As mentioned, 8k hrs is a lot but, depending on how it was maintained and what it did for those hours means more. Do you know the history of the machine or the previous owner? Any maintenance records?

Also mentioned, push down with the buckets and see if it has any trouble lifting itself.

How are the tires?

I was in your position a year ago and looked at several machines over a long period before I found the right one. If you are going to keep this machine, then don't settle. If it is not exactly what you want for what you want to spend, keep looking. I passed on cheaper machines that didn't have the features I wanted.

ETA, If at all possible I would recommend a 4 in 1 front bucket.


Is this it?

http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8892769
</div></div>

Could they have taken more shitty pictures? </div></div>

I thought the same thing. I don't know what those pictures are supposed to show other than they have a backhoe.

 

[Phil1]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

If its not wet you may not need 4x4.

A extenda-hoe is nice and it and 4x4 are big selling features.

I personally wouldn't buy without an oil analysis.
http://www.titanlab.com/value-of-fluid-analysis/# I don't know how much these guys charge but it starts at about $25 at most heavy equipment dealerships.

I don't know what its like in other parts of the country but in western US and western Canada with all the oil,fracking,gas construction activity, used machinery is fetching good prices.

IMO Case, Deere and Cat are the top picks, sort of in that order, abet Cat is kinda pricy. My personal operating experience is in a Ford.

If you shop with care you can probably do what you want to do in 200-400 hours and sell for what you paid for it IF you don't have any issues. You can also make a buck on the side if your neighbors need some work done. As long as there aren't dimwitted locals who feel they should work for free.

A machine like that is far superior to a bobcat/skid steer for not much more $$.If you have snow to move in the winter and can make some $$ on the side it can last a while. Some of those machines run a couple hundred hours a year for years without ever seeing a wrench.

 

[pwc001]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

4x4 has very little use in the south, on a backhoe, maybe in the snow, but we never get much of that in the south. I would not let that be a deciding factor. When you are stuck, it will not help.

I would not get an extenda-hoe on a tractor that is that old. They get very sloppy after a lot of use, also are loud and it is more to go wrong if you do not need it.

I would put Deere Cat at the top, then Case, then Ford JCB. There are others, but those are the main ones.

 

[Yasherka]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

Even with the snow we get it doesn't get so sloppy I'd NEED a 4wd although I admit it would be nice to have. And the extenda-hoe I think would be more trouble than worth given my budget and the age of the machine I'm looking at.

Phil, good call on the oil analysis, I hadn't even thought of that.

 

[Guest]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwc001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">4x4 has very little use in the south</div></div>Most around here, self included will not own one that is but 2wd. Do to the amount of clay in some areas I've had to chain up every wheel before leaving the lowboy. Even have chains for the DH4B trencher. Ya you can do it w/o 4 wd but folks expect to see the machine moving via it's wheels over the hoe and bucket 2 step. Once, even with chains on it was so greasy I had to put a guy on the trencher hoe, just to move it's reach length, while digging a county contracted 300' 6x48" ditch.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If its not wet you may not need 4x4.

A extenda-hoe is nice and it and 4x4 are big selling features.

I personally wouldn't buy without an oil analysis.
http://www.titanlab.com/value-of-fluid-analysis/# I don't know how much these guys charge but it starts at about $25 at most heavy equipment dealerships.

I don't know what its like in other parts of the country but in western US and western Canada with all the oil,fracking,gas construction activity, used machinery is fetching good prices.

IMO Case, Deere and Cat are the top picks, sort of in that order, abet Cat is kinda pricy. My personal operating experience is in a Ford.

If you shop with care you can probably do what you want to do in 200-400 hours and sell for what you paid for it IF you don't have any issues. You can also make a buck on the side if your neighbors need some work done. As long as there aren't dimwitted locals who feel they should work for free.

A machine like that is far superior to a bobcat/skid steer for not much more $$.If you have snow to move in the winter and can make some $$ on the side it can last a while. Some of those machines run a couple hundred hours a year for years without ever seeing a wrench. </div></div>

If you use Amsoil in it they will do periodic oil analysis for very little. I dont know about before you buy. Definately a smart move. Regardless, switch it to Amsoil once you buy it.

 

[pwc001]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwc001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">4x4 has very little use in the south</div></div>Most around here, self included will not own one that is but 2wd. Do to the amount of clay in some areas I've had to chain up every wheel before leaving the lowboy. Even have chains for the DH4B trencher. Ya you can do it w/o 4 wd but folks expect to see the machine moving via it's wheels over the hoe and bucket 2 step. Once, even with chains on it was so greasy I had to put a guy on the trencher hoe, just to move it's reach length, while digging a county contracted 300' 6x48" ditch. </div></div>

Ok, I am not saying it does not have its place at all, I have just never seen a machine stuck, that 4x4 would have helped. And yes I have both. And we have horrible Gumbo Clay mud here in Louisiana.

 

[Guest]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwc001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, I am not saying it does not have its place at all, I have just never seen a machine stuck, that 4x4 would have helped.</div></div>
Using a 4x4 is not about getting out if your stuck, the Hoe, Bucket, or both together will get the machine out most every time w/o issue.
Where the 4 wheel comes into it's own, is loading trucks or pushing a pile, minor grading, or traversing with something clamped by the 4 an 1.
When you bid a job time is money as you well know, and slipping and sliding or trying to traverse wet clay in the Am or after a little shower is money wasted. I started years ago with a 2 wheel(580C), but very quickly switched when I started bidding bigger jobs, money well spent.

 

[athhud]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

I wouldn't own a 2wd tractor of any sort even if it was given to me.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

At 13 grand that ought to have an engine rebuild, new pins throughout front and rear, and new rubber. As others have said, that would go for around 5k at auction.

FWIW, I've seen several go for 5-6k that were newer and had less hours in the Minnesota state surplus auction system. They were also under a regular fleet maintenance program. The big caveat of course is some people take care of the machines they operate. Gov't employees are not known for being easy on a machine when they run it.

As far as the 4 wheel drive goes, it depends on what you are doing and where you are at. We never used 4WD's and we were just fine. When I moved up to central Montana where there's gumbo all over the place, not having 4WD might lead to suicide or a stroke. You'd be stuck all the time. If you have a lot of mud, especially sticky mud then 4WD is the only way to go.

 

[pwc001]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: athhud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't own a 2wd tractor of any sort even if it was given to me. </div></div>

Strong statement! I just do not see it as a deal breaker. Like I said, it has its place, but not everyone will need it. For what he wants, it would cut some cost, and he could still get everything he wanted done.

We have plenty of wet clay here in Louisiana, and have made a lot of money with the worthless 2wd's. we also have 4x4 tractors, but only because they came that way new, not because we ordered them that way.

 

[athhud]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

You can certainly get by with 2wd for a lot of jobs, but the only downside of 4wd is cost. In the very used equipment market, there is not a huge (if any) difference in the cost. I hardly ever use 4wd because I'm stuck or am afraid of getting stuck. I use 4wd for loader work 90% of the time. When you can only use 50% of the bucket because you don't have enough traction to get a full load, it doesn't take long before 4wd pays for itself. If you will always keep good ol' Mr. Scrooge in mind you will make the best decisions on equipment purchases. Time is money! Of course if you will only use the machine one weekend a year, 4wd (or the machine for that matter) wouldn't be worth the price. Everyone's needs are different. For general use though, I consider 4wd a necessity. In some cases it is an extremely important safety feature! The first time you find yourself sliding backwards towards a body of water, truck, house, cliff, person, etc. you'll likely agree! Regardless of which features you go with, you have to know their limits. I personally don't know my limits until I exceed them, so I need all of the help I can get!

 

[wburke2010]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

Well I talked to a guy today that works for one of the largest auction companies in the states on what he thought this tractor would go for and the results surprised the shit out of me. He has a database that is updated every night that will give him the price of any piece of equipment sold in an auction across the us and some other parts of the world. He ran a john deer from 88*90 year model with some of the other specs and said that four tractors sold in December that were between those years with 6-9k hours on them and the cheapest went for 19k and the most expensive went for 22k. Personally we both agreed that those prices are stupid high, but the problem is people are buying used equipment and shipping it over seas so backhoes are going for a premium.


As for the four wheel drive I have personally never needed it on a backhoe, but for what the op is wanting to use the loader for he could really use the four wheel drive.

Walter

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wburke2010</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I talked to a guy today that works for one of the largest auction companies in the states on what he thought this tractor would go for and the results surprised the shit out of me. He has a database that is updated every night that will give him the price of any piece of equipment sold in an auction across the us and some other parts of the world. He ran a john deer from 88*90 year model with some of the other specs and said that four tractors sold in December that were between those years with 6-9k hours on them and the cheapest went for 19k and the most expensive went for 22k. Personally we both agreed that those prices are stupid high, but the problem is people are buying used equipment and shipping it over seas so backhoes are going for a premium.


As for the four wheel drive I have personally never needed it on a backhoe, but for what the op is wanting to use the loader for he could really use the four wheel drive.

Walter</div></div>

I was flat out amazed, but this is true! I went checking on equipment and found a lot of countries that have a little money now are buying old stuff for a lot cheaper than new and shipping it overseas.
I found about 40 JD 410D's selling for $45K apiece in Argentina.

 

[Yasherka]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

Postscript:

Well, I ended up getting the backhoe mentioned above. My desires for a better machine at a similar cost ran into the brick wall of reality and was left with the following options:

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Deal with some VERY shady people. As in, he had to get legal permission to visit his lot to show the machine
[*]Pay a shit-ton more to get a good machine nearby and blow my budget
[*]Travel 800-1500 miles one-way to find a hoe in another state and HOPE I could get them down to a reasonable price (and then pony up another $1700+ to ship it)
[*]Pay the local guys $10 grand[/list]

I went with the last one because I now need the machine within two weeks, and pretty much anything else was going to cost in the neighborhood of 50% more. I still think it's in extremely good shape given its age and hours, but overpriced. Wish me luck.

 

[d8dk]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

Price depends alot on area. I know JD's with 15000 + hours that still pay their way. Also an extendahoe on a 2whl drive means never having the steer tires on the ground anyway. Good Luck and enjoy.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Waayyy off topic - Backhoe questions

Another vote for 4x4, for all the reasons given already. I reckon I have loaded some of the slickest shit(yep..litterally human shit) on the planet. That saying, that says 4 wheels spinning are no better than 2 wheels spinning? I disagree. If you are spinning around on concrete covered in shit.....4x4 is better trust me.

If you are stuck with a backhoe you miiiight not be a very good operator. Or you might have put it somewhere you shouldn't be with a backhoe.