Rifle Scopes What constitues a tier one scope vs tier two and etc?

[Soulezoo]

Ok, the suggestion from the ZCO update was to start a thread to discuss what is a tier one scope and what is not? I really have no dog in this fight as I think it gets subjective as you narrow it down.

TT for instance may be labeled tier 1A. With Hensoldt perhaps? Perhaps not. Cost alone doesn't make or break the tier 1 category, but if you think your $80 NCstar is tier 1 because it looks "tactical" then perhaps you are on the wrong forum.

So blast away with opinions, try for as much objectivity as possible and, Frank, please don't hate on me for stirring the pot.

 

[Bkultra]

Quigley Ford is at the top of tier one...

(Insert something about 20+ years of concrete and benching 275 lbs)

 

[Tree]

1. Is it used by the military
2. Is it used by PRS shooters
3. Does it look cool on my AR
4. Does it have Night vision capability
5. Does it have a 1" tube
6. Can it be used as a bat in the event my gun fails

The number of Yes answers drive the tier. Yes to all Tier 1, yes to 5 tier 2, etc.

 

[XLR308]

Quigley Ford is at the top of tier one...

(Insert something about 20+ years of concrete and benching 275 lbs)

Don't forget about sammich eatin ass whoopin bad mofo ??

And to answer the question what's defines tier 1 or 2, simple your budget.
Wasn't that long ago that the Bushnell DMR was a hot item in PRS now I guess you can hardly hit anything past 50 yards with that clunker ( End Sarcasm )

 

[Covertnoob5]

1. Is it used by the military
.

Why is that even a factor? I’m sure no one is putting the Leupold mk4 on their tier 1 list? Just because the military uses it doesn’t mean it’s the best or even good. Look at the Remington msr that’s already being replaced. Clearly even they aren’t happy with it.

 

[canezach]

If you have a scope and it's not one of the ones other scopes are compared to, you don't have a tier 1. For instance:

"Hey, my new Burris arrived!"

"Cool! How is the glass? Are the turrets really crisp?"

"Well, it's not bad. The glass is a step down from my Minox, and the turrets aren't as nice as my Schmidt, but it's decent."

 

[XLR308]

As much as many here will cringe from me saying this my next build will be used mostly for hunting and it will be wearing an IOR 3-18 SFP.
It has been a great scope and has proven very good in low light shot opportunities.
I have compared it to a few other scopes that cost more and the resolution and clarity seem better to my eyes.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Tagged for shitshow

 

[TheGerman]

The pinnacle of trolling is when you shitpost and someone totally takes it seriously.

 

[XLR308]

The pinnacle of trolling is when you shitpost and someone totally takes it seriously.

Let's try and stay on topic here ok ??

 

[b6graham]

Quigley Ford is at the top of tier one...

(Insert something about 20+ years of concrete and benching 275 lbs)

woah woah

it doesnt have a chevron though!

 

[RyanM]

Screw your Quigley, Huskemaw for the win!

Sidenote: Had an old timer tell me his SFP scope compensated for wind and elevation with one turret and the reticle holds always remained accurate no matter the magnification.

 

[XLR308]

Screw your Quigley, Huskemaw for the win!

Sidenote: Had an old timer tell me his SFP scope compensated for wind and elevation with one turret and the reticle holds always remained accurate no matter the magnification.

With every one of those old gems that pass we are losing so much valuable knowledge.

 

[winniethepooh]

When you have to up your credit limit on your credit card...

 

[Dthomas3523]

When you have to up your credit limit on your credit card...

Well.......fuck.

Add the pst gen 2 to the tier one list.

 

[thestacche]

Let me know when something constructive is posted and I might learn something.

 

[canezach]

I love the people who talk shit about the conversation not being constructive or informative, but add absolutely nothing constructive or informative

 

[Dirty8404]

I am not a fan of posters who fuckoff in tech sections.

I’d say T1 is

Hensoldt
Tangent Theta
Schmidt and Bender
Kahles
Steiner
Nightforce

Obviously there are differences between them, and not all models will qualify.

I don’t think there is a metric, but I’d consider T1 to be a scope meant to be the best that a high quality company can produce. Tracking, glass, performance record of the company, and quality service are all factored in.

Anything below that (T2, etc) means that significant compromises were made in order to compete at a certain price point, I.E. Nightforce SHV, Steiner T5xi, Vortex PST Gen II. I personally would put the AMG at T1 and the Razor as almost there, due to the weight.

Some of it will be a judgement call, and whether the person is a “lumper” or a “splitter.”

EDIT: did it seriously take post #18 to get an actual fucking opinion? This is the issue with a fast growing forum, signal-to-noise ratio. Police yourselves, nasties.

 

[beetroot]

The pinnacle of trolling is when you shitpost and someone totally takes it seriously.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with that, as often it leaves you second guessing yourself to whether you tried too hard and are on the cusp of having gone full retard.

Perhaps that is the ultimate troll, trolling so convincingly that the troll starts to question themself.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I love the people who talk shit about the conversation not being constructive or informative, but add absolutely nothing constructive or informative

I present to you......irony.

 

[LeftyJason]

I am not a fan of posters who fuckoff in tech sections.

I’d say T1 is

Hensoldt
Tangent Theta
Schmidt and Bender
Kahles
Steiner
Nightforce

Obviously there are differences between them.

Might be good to say which specific models fit into tier 1. For example I think most would say the Atacr is not same tier as nxs.

 

[Bender]

I love the people who talk shit about the conversation not being constructive or informative, but add absolutely nothing constructive or informative

 

[Dthomas3523]

Might be good to say which specific models fit into tier 1. For example I think most would say the Atacr is not same tier as nxs.

Agreed.

I’d my opinion is “Tier 1” is only a very, very select group. Meaning they stand out fairly easily.

Tangent Theta
Hendsoldt

Maybe Zcomp. We’ll see.

Then your tier 2 would go into Schmidt, kahles, NF, etc.


That’s not to say that a tier 2 optic isn’t an extremely, extremely good optic. But when there’s at least one that is better than all the rest, a new tier is created.

For example, let’s say zcomp is noticeably better than Schmidt, but the TT is noticeably better than the zcomp. Well, now zcomp is in tier 2 by itself and everything below it gets kicked down a tier.


I think the most important line that should be drawn is either price or whatever the acceptable tracking error is in the specs.

Say that lower quality(but still good) optics have a 2% acceptable error and most higher quality optics have 1% and then some have 0.5%.

To me, acceptable tracking error would be a good way to go about it.

 

[Soulezoo]

Just throwing some stuff out there.

I think many could agree that Kahles, ATACR, Minox, S&B are "Tier One". They each have strengths and weaknesses over one another in different ways, but on the whole pretty close to one another. However I think most agree that TT and Henny are just that little bit better overall-- hence Tier 1A in my parlance. ZCO appears to be solid tier 1 so far, we shall see.
What about Vortex, Zeiss, Swaro, Meopta, Leupold, Steiner, Leica and IOR at their top end offerings. Second tier? Although many of the above may be SFP and more hunting oriented, they are not slackers in the quality of build department (for the most part-- IOR suspect here) Does high end Bushnell belong here, how about NXS? Where does March fit?

Third tier, run of the mill Leupy? What else?

 

[Soulezoo]

We may have to define categories and then assign tiers.

 

[86alaskan]

Definitely would need to define categories based on use. The ATACR may be up for there in tiers, but it's not where I would turn for a top tier hunting scope. That's where the Swaro, Leica, Zeiss come in at the top...IMO. So to be completely fair there need to be divisions. I love my Razor gen2, but that scope wouldn't be on my tier 1 as a hunting scope due to the massive weight. But for me, It's a tier 1 with the AMG for competition scopes.

 

[ophious]

You want a top tier scope go with Tasco.

 

[canezach]

I present to you......irony.

I posted a very rudimentary explanation before that, but to expand on that, I don't know that I'd break things down to tier 1A, 2C, etc. I do agree that you can't just name a manufacturer without differentiating between their models. With that said, here's my list of scopes I've owned or spent a bit of time behind;

Minox ZP5: stellar glass, excellent tracking, no CA within the range of magnification, turrets are good but maybe not great. The MR4 is my favorite reticle. It's my favorite scope at the moment.

Kahles K624i: good glass, very good turrets, some CA exhibited, some of the early generations had tracking issues, but i'm assuming they got that worked out

S&B PM2: The original gold standard for glass, excellent tracking, very good turrets. Only issue is their reticles haven't advanced for certain applications, but still more than usable. I still have one with the Gen2XR on my DTA SRS and I like the H2CMR, but the rest are just meh

Steiner M5Xi: Glass is good, but not quite the same quality as the ones above. Excellent tracking, excellent turrets, with what has to be the coolest second rev indicator on the market. The MSR still has a soft spot in my heart, but they suffer from the same lacking reticles as S&B

NF ATACR: I haven't spent time behind the 7-35, but everything I wrote about S&B applies to the ATACR 5-25, right down to the reticles.

Vortex Gen 2 Razor: For a while, it seemed everyone was using one, and that was only a couple of years ago, which is a testament to how far scopes have come in such a short period of time. It was probably the scope that started the "scope race" by packing a lot of features into a reasonably priced package. Very good glass, reliable tracking, EBR2C reticle was THE reticle to use for PRS matches at the time.

I would love to spend some time behind a Tangent Theta or Hensoldt, but my time behind the Henny wasn't long enough for me to give a fair review, and I have yet to see a TT on the firing line yet. I owned a Premier and would've included it, but since they're now defunct and their lineage is split between the TT and Minox, I didn't include them, but they were definitely a top tier scope.

 

[Tree]

Why is that even a factor? I’m sure no one is putting the Leupold mk4 on their tier 1 list? Just because the military uses it doesn’t mean it’s the best or even good. Look at the Remington msr that’s already being replaced. Clearly even they aren’t happy with it.

So of the items I listed that is the one you have an issue with? Not the fact that I want to be able to use it as a bat?

 

[JBELL74]

Tagged for shitshow

Ditto. Popcorn time

 

[Covertnoob5]

So of the items I listed that is the one you have an issue with? Not the fact that I want to be able to use it as a bat?

Lol I took that to sarcasm/being facetious at its finest.
But your first point is one that a lot of people unfortunately hang their hat on as the end all be all of gun industry products. Whether it be scopes, rifles, calibers, etc. and that’s unfortunate. Great scopes that aren’t “used by the military” or maybe just haven’t heard of them being used get over looked and people end up pigeon-holing themselves into like 1 or 2 brands of scopes.

 

[HMRamateur]

Screw your Quigley, Huskemaw for the win!

Sidenote: Had an old timer tell me his SFP scope compensated for wind and elevation with one turret and the reticle holds always remained accurate no matter the magnification.

I can't believe I found this quote... My dad told someone this exact same thing in Milo, Alberta, Canada when we were shooting at a range. I know more now than I did then, but even then it sounded quite fucked ?

 

[Steel head]

The pinnacle of trolling is when you shitpost and someone totally takes it seriously.

Quoted for posterity!

 

[The King]

If I live to be 60...I will flip the switch and everything I tell strangers at the range will be barely believable bullshit.

Why? So they can have a cool story to tell.

 

[Rthur]

Tier one Scope- Adds 15 points to your score on saturday and sunday.
Tier two Scope- Heads up on score and maybe a couple of "wind call misses".
Below Tier 2 Scope- Dope must be off, dude gave me the wrong wind call, F'n range on these targets is off.

R

 

[The King]

Is there a good, better, best scope? Yeah. Is there a scope that never breaks? No.

Is the Tier 1 going to cause you to kick the shit out of the gifted shooter who spent all his or her money on ammo and practice when you showed up with 100 rounds down the pipe on your $50k rig? Not really.

 

[Rookie]

I've been away from competitive rifle shooting for a few years now. Back in my day the top tier was Schmidt and Bender and u.s. Optics.

In anticipation of getting back into the game, I've been back here at snipershide daily reading posts and trying to catch up. What's the current story on u.s. Optics? It appears that their website is totally different than it used to be. I have a couple of their sn3 scopes that I'm pretty proud of. It doesn't look like they carry that line anymore.

 

[Wyzrd]

To answer the OP’s question of what constitutes a Tier 1 scope from everything else:

A Tier 1 scope must have Schott glass (IOR) Everything else is crap! ??

Totally bullshittin, just had to throw that in there!?

 

[Spblademaker]

If it’s mounted on a DD Delta 5 = Instant Tier 1

And extra “like” points added for Wyzrd’s avatar pic, again.

 

[Fig]

Tier 1 scopes have reticulated, partially oscillating diopters that allow photonic transmission along the ventral surfaces and platonic resonance along the mesial surfaces.

 

[308pirate]

Tier one scopes right there: L3-Kollmorgen

 

[Jonnyb0381]

I would place TT, ZCO, Minox ZP5, NF ATACR 7-35, S&B PM II, and Hensoldt all as tier 1 optics. Ive heard good things about the Steiner M7xi but Im not sure if most would consider it tier 1 or not?

 

[seansmd]

Clearly tier 1 is whatever I spent my money on, gotta defend the spend.

 

[The King]

You know - I was never terribly interested in the T1 scopes. I bought one (Hensoldt 4-16 ZF) and a lot of T1.5 scopes (SB, NF aTACR).

What always blew my bubble gum was seeing how friggin close to the T1 an $800 optic or $1000 optic could get. Which is why I might have owned all of those so far that weren’t made in China.

It’s also why I have my own collimating table and resolution charts...and a giant free hanging tall target.

 

[Chargerguy]

How would you guys with experience rate the leupold mark 5? I just attended an LR course where I was told the Mark 5 was the best out there. I've only ever played with the Vortex AMG and TT525P.

 

[Covertnoob5]

How would you guys with experience rate the leupold mark 5? I just attended an LR course where I was told the Mark 5 was the best out there. I've only ever played with the Vortex AMG and TT525P.

??? whoever told you that is either a leupy salesman or someone with not a lot of experience. To me the leupold is a tier 2 optic. Not bad for tier 2 but I wouldn’t say the best either. Middle of the pack for tier 2.
If you’ve played with a TT525P you’ve already experienced one of if not the best of the best.

 

[Chargerguy]

Thanks. I wasn't buying it, just wanted to verify though.

 

[Dthomas3523]

How would you guys with experience rate the leupold mark 5? I just attended an LR course where I was told the Mark 5 was the best out there. I've only ever played with the Vortex AMG and TT525P.

It’s a good optic. But as stated, only an Uber fanboy or dealer/sponsored would claim it to be the best out there.

It’s in the same category as a vortex razor gen 2. Though the gen 2 has years of proven use, and the mk5 is relatively new.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’ll give my updated personal tiers. This takes all features into account, not just glass.

Tier 1:

Tangent Theta
Zcomp
Hendsoldt

Tier 2:

Schmidt
NF atacr
Minox zp5
Maybe kahles......maybe

Tier 3:

Maybe minox......mabe
Kahles
Vortex AMG
Vortex razor gen 2
Leupold mk5
Probably the new NF nx8
Maybe Athlon Cronus but probably not

Tier 4:

Athlon Cronus
Swfa some models

Tier 5:

Viper pst gen 2
Athlon ares


I’m sure I’m missing something. But those are the major ones.

I separate the top three tier 1 optics because they absolutely stand out above the tier 2 in my opinion. That being said, the tier 2 options are perfectly fine and you won’t be lacking in quality or durability.

 

[Jonnyb0381]

I’ll give my updated personal tiers. This takes all features into account, not just glass.

Tier 1:

Tangent Theta
Zcomp
Hendsoldt

Tier 2:

Schmidt
NF atacr
Minox zp5
Maybe kahles......maybe

Tier 3:

Maybe minox......mabe
Kahles
Vortex AMG
Vortex razor gen 2
Leupold mk5
Probably the new NF nx8
Maybe Athlon Cronus but probably not

Tier 4:

Athlon Cronus
Swfa some models

Tier 5:

Viper pst gen 2
Athlon ares


I’m sure I’m missing something. But those are the major ones.

I separate the top three tier 1 optics because they absolutely stand out above the tier 2 in my opinion. That being said, the tier 2 options are perfectly fine and you won’t be lacking in quality or durability.

Woah! Minox ZP5 Tier 2?
Have to disagree with ya there.