What do you consider the "range" of a particular cartridge?

[WillEver]

My son is working on a project comparing different cartridges and ballistics. He has a few questions that I don't have a good answer for, so I thought this might be the best place to ask.

The question is; what do you think of as the range of the cartridge you're shooting? Not talking about hunting or shooting paper groups necessarily. Let's say you're shooting steel. Do you think in terms of where your bullet goes subsonic, or some function of that? Or where it has a certain mount of energy so you can spot misses. Or something else?

Thanks

 

[blksno]

for me...its either.

A) where my load, in my rifle goes transonic
That's my cartridge's "Range"

B) where I can no longer go 50% impacts on 3 MOA targets (generous yes, but that's just me)
That's MY Range with my system

An example would be a 60" squre at 2000 yds would be 3 MOA. That's a big box...but it's also a far poke.

 

[Aftermath]

For me it depends.
If I am thinking steel targets or an enemy combatant, I don't consider actual lethality at all. Only the ability to hit accurately. Poke a hole where I want to. If its paper or steel, cool deal. If it is an enemy, I don't care how long it takes him to bleed out and longer might be better from a psyop standpoint.
If I am hunting, I want the bullet to hit the target at least 1800 fps with enough energy to at least match the animals live body weight. I go for heart and lung shots almost exclusively.

 

[wpeach1912]

Generally for me it goes transonic range for steel and less than 1800fps for game with cup and core bullets. 2000fps for copper.
Another way of looking at it could be using a WEZ simulation to see when your hit probably drops below a certain percentage.

 

[Southernspeed]

Take a look at Mark and Sam Afterwork on YouTube. He shoots 24” square steel at crazy distances, way past transonic. I imagine the same could be said of most ELR shooters. I don’t know where those guys would draw the line? Where elevation starts shortening distance I guess!

 

[Jackomason]

Where ever a given caliber can no longer accomplish its intended use.

There's not really a single metric that determines this. How ever you slice it, you're always cutting out a lot of cartridges.

Has anyone ever applied WEZ to something like the NF ELR course of fire? I think that would be super interesting to compare it to real world scores and score board as a whole.

 

[Newbie2020]

Where ever a given caliber can no longer accomplish its intended use.

There's not really a single metric that determines this. How ever you slice it, you're always cutting out a lot of cartridges.

Has anyone ever applied WEZ to something like the NF ELR course of fire? I think that would be super interesting to compare it to real world scores and score board as a whole.

^^^This^^^

The most useful metric for determining “Effective range” differs by discipline:

Hunting: energy below XX at target

ELR steel: hit probability below XX%, not distance at transonic. Transonic contributes to hit probability at a given distance but transonic isn’t the only factor.

LR steel: for small projectiles like 224v or 223 rem it might simply be inability to spot impacts.

 

[parkerg31]

Personally for target shooting it is the range at which my probability of a hit drops below XX% (whatever I decide that percentage needs to be depending on the situation). I think Newbie 2020 has the best definition I have seen so far.

 

[alamo5000]

My son is working on a project comparing different cartridges and ballistics. He has a few questions that I don't have a good answer for, so I thought this might be the best place to ask.

The question is; what do you think of as the range of the cartridge you're shooting? Not talking about hunting or shooting paper groups necessarily. Let's say you're shooting steel. Do you think in terms of where your bullet goes subsonic, or some function of that? Or where it has a certain mount of energy so you can spot misses. Or something else?

Thanks

Two schools of thought from me.

1. How far you could shoot an ethical shot on a somewhat moving target (IE deer, game animals, etc) and still have sufficient terminal ballistics to do the job.

2. How far you can actually shoot and hit a target. For example a .22 LR can reasonably be expected to make contact out to 500 ish yards. Sure, people have shot them farther but in general that's about where it falls apart.

It all depends on what the shooter is doing and trying to accomplish. The same cartridge out of different platforms can have drastically different ranges.

 

[rlsmith1]

I agree with the statement that max range is where the cartridge can’t accomplish it’s intended purpose.

If he’s looking to quantify, I would consider the following:
- Supersonic range
- Max range the bullet retains x ft/lbs of energy (depending on game)
- Max range the bullet travels x fps (bullet expansion threshold)


From experience, you could use the following:
- Max range that x% of hits are made on certain target size
- Max range bullet splash can be seen


A good apples to apples comparison of modern cartridges / bullets is how many MIL (or MOA, or inches) of drop a bullet has at 1,000 yds. 5.5 MILs of drop at 1,000 yds is very flat, while the 308 Win shooting a 175 SMK drops between 10 and 11 MILs over the same distance

 

[FredHammer]

For me it depends.
If I am thinking steel targets or an enemy combatant, I don't consider actual lethality at all. Only the ability to hit accurately. Poke a hole where I want to. If its paper or steel, cool deal. If it is an enemy, I don't care how long it takes him to bleed out and longer might be better from a psyop standpoint.
If I am hunting, I want the bullet to hit the target at least 1800 fps with enough energy to at least match the animals live body weight. I go for heart and lung shots almost exclusively.

This is the answer(s)

I also want to see the velocity at or above 1100fps at the target destination range. Most bullets will fly good at supersonic, but not all bullets weather the transonic good. I don’t have desire to figure the differences, so I keep them all humming supersonic.

ETA: My future enemy will be in times of societal collapse. I don’t agree with the psyops thing. Although I can appreciate the sentiment. (I was psyops in a former chapter in the book of my life too)
Dispatching other humans in my hypothetical, will most definitely not be members of another state sponsored enemy in which the psyops thing would apply. I would just want them gone to no longer threaten me and mine. N stuff.

 

[Jackomason]

This is the answer(s)

I also want to see the velocity at or above 1100fps at the target destination range. Most bullets will fly good at supersonic, but not all bullets weather the transonic good. I don’t have desire to figure the differences, so I keep them all humming supersonic.

What about 22lr? What about 45-70?

 

[FredHammer]

What about 22lr? What about 45-70?

Nobody asks this question when it pertains to these cartridges. Trivial post.

 

[Jackomason]

Just because you dont, doesn't mean others dont...

 

[FredHammer]

Just because you dont, doesn't mean others dont...

Why then haven’t you asked the op this question? We are all like minded about cartridges that matter when a question like this is posed.

Damn, he might be shooting a flintlock! Glad you specified!

 

[Ronws]

My son is working on a project comparing different cartridges and ballistics. He has a few questions that I don't have a good answer for, so I thought this might be the best place to ask.

The question is; what do you think of as the range of the cartridge you're shooting? Not talking about hunting or shooting paper groups necessarily. Let's say you're shooting steel. Do you think in terms of where your bullet goes subsonic, or some function of that? Or where it has a certain mount of energy so you can spot misses. Or something else?

Thanks

Like others say, it depends on the intended use. Transonic is a good line, though.

For me, as a hunter, the impact velocity should be 2k fps. That defines the range for that cartridge ability. My own ability might bring it in closer.

My 7 PRC is over 2 k at 750 yards. That is farther than I am going to shoot. Probably, I am going to shoot a deer or other animal no farther than 300 yards.

 

[Jackomason]

Why then haven’t you asked the op this question? We are all like minded about cartridges that matter when a question like this is posed.

Damn, he might be shooting a flintlock! Glad you specified!

Sometimes people use extremes to make a point.

 

[FredHammer]

Sometimes people use extremes to make a point.

They do, but you are just providing stupid posts.

 

[Jackomason]

They do, but you are just providing stupid posts.

I provided an answer as vague as the original question while you go on about shooting people in a "society collapse" and I'm the one with stupid posts? OK bud. Keep dreaming...

 

[FredHammer]

I provided an answer as vague as the original question while you go on about shooting people in a "society collapse" and I'm the one with stupid posts? OK bud. Keep dreaming...

That sidebar still has more relevancy to the OP than anything you’ve posted so far. Learn to quit while you’re behind.

 

[Newbie2020]

Transonic is a good and useful rule of thumb that actually works great for both hunting and most steel shooting.

The exceptions are ELR and 22LR.

A 308 win might go transonic at 1,000 yds but 80s vintage snipers consistently hit 2 moa targets with it at 1,500

6.5 cm might go transonic at 1,200 but it’s routinely shot at a mile on 2 moa targets.

338 lapua and 300 PRC go transonic about 1,500 yds and are often effective on 2 moa targets past 2,000 yds.

Hit probability obviously declines past transonic for any bullet. But I think the higher BC bullets in whatever caliber extend that post-transonic predictability somewhat.

So I guess “effective” is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[hlee]

Max range is that range beyond which the shooter cannot make a first round hit on the intended target, and beyond which the bullet does not retain the capacity to incapacitate that target- or a target of that size. I mean, if your target is the size of an elephant, the bullet better be able to anchor an elephant at that range.

 

[WillEver]

Personally for target shooting it is the range at which my probability of a hit drops below XX% (whatever I decide that percentage needs to be depending on the situation). I think Newbie 2020 has the best definition I have seen so far.

I think this is the best answer...

I wish there was a less expensive version of the WEZ software.

 

[chevy_man]

For steel: as far as I can hit.

For hunting: 1 second of flight time provided it still has ample energy. 1 second is a long time when it comes to movement.

For someone shooting at me? Fuck it. If I'm close enough to scare them into taking cover so I can evac I'm taking the shot and letting them wonder while I get moving.

 

[45-90]

My son is working on a project comparing different cartridges and ballistics. He has a few questions that I don't have a good answer for, so I thought this might be the best place to ask.

The question is; what do you think of as the range of the cartridge you're shooting? Not talking about hunting or shooting paper groups necessarily. Let's say you're shooting steel. Do you think in terms of where your bullet goes subsonic, or some function of that? Or where it has a certain mount of energy so you can spot misses. Or something else?

Thanks

The limit is how far the bullet will travel...black powder 45-70 500 loads tested to 3500 yds in 1879, then 2500 yds, then the government declared the average trooper effective range to 1900 yds in 1879, with the Springfield 45-70.
An Australian couple used a factory chambered 308 Win, in Rem 700 barreled action in an aluminum chassis to connect 2 out of 10 shots at 3000 on 24" steel...on video. They do this with a bunch of standard and magnum calibers. The results are sometimes surprising, as the big magnums, high BC don't always do better.
Ballistics are important and we all poor over the new components and ballistics programs to find an edge. But being able afford to shoot the cartridge of choice and find components, so you can actually shoot the new ballistics phenomenon you hope to purchase, is probably more important. Brass, powder, primers, & bullets are hard to get in many calibers ...availability and cost are important to consider. I shoot 6mm to 50BMG for LR...but the 6mms are hard to spot and harder to hear..use light sheet metal or ya wont hear the impact, but light recoil and lower cost. One of my favorites is a modernized 308 case, long action, 8 twist 30" barrel, 200 SMK gr to 230 SMK, or Atips, light recoil in heavy rifles, long barrel life, good velocity, easy to spot.

 

[232593]

Max range is that range beyond which the shooter cannot make a first round hit on the intended target, and beyond which the bullet does not retain the capacity to incapacitate that target- or a target of that size. I mean, if your target is the size of an elephant, the bullet better be able to anchor an elephant at that range.

Do you incorporate fragmentation threshold at all for that? Just curious.

 

[hlee]

Do you incorporate fragmentation threshold at all for that? Just curious.

I do not. I want my bullets to mushroom and drive through the target, without contaminating the meat with fragments of lead...

 

[918v]

Jerry Miculek hits steel at 1000 yards with a 9mm revolver. So there’s that. The range needs to be qualified with the word “effective.” The effective range is where the accuracy and performance of a cartridge are able to do what is intended.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Jerry Miculek hits steel at 1000 yards with a 9mm revolver. So there’s that. The range needs to be qualified with the word “effective.” The effective range is where the accuracy and performance of a cartridge are able to do what is intended.

Whose interpretation of effective are we using?

 

[Keeper22]

Interesting answers, so the final answer is who knows? Just kidding, I think it is a matter of opinion rather than scientific facts, even if the opinions are based on facts.

 

[Clayman]

The question is; what do you think of as the range of the cartridge you're shooting? Not talking about hunting or shooting paper groups necessarily. Let's say you're shooting steel. Do you think in terms of where your bullet goes subsonic, or some function of that? Or where it has a certain mount of energy so you can spot misses. Or something else?

Thanks

In my opinion there are basically 3 ranges to consider with a cartridge.

Maximum effective range that has guaranteed expansion/fragmentation of the particular bullet used.

Range that the bullet reaches transonic speed. This range is the start of accurate predictability decreasing. Now some bullets/calibers seem to get less unstable than others and can be less unpredictable but obviously not as predictable as it is through super.

Then subsonic. A bullet leaving super, entering transonic and going subsonic generally upsets the bullet an amount past reliable predictability compared to supersonic. Again some rounds handle this better than others.

 

[PB&J.]

I am a huge advocate of the Speed Drop Factor method and as this is for a research project, I think a really cool metric to use would be comparing various cartridges and how they perform within their respective SDF windows.

Each cartridge has a butter zone where you need .1mil of elevation per 10yds of distance, this is really useful for rapid engagement of targets at multiple distances (within the window) as all you need to do is hold/dial your yardage as elevation for all engagements .

Take a vital zone of say 7" diameter (+-3.5" from point of aim) and work out the effective engagement window of various cartridges, the size of the window, and how various cartridge windows overlap.

 

[45-90]

Just shoot it... and keep shooting it, repeat thousands of times, in your area.
Learn how the wind flows through the area...canyons, mountain peaks, interferences with the wind flow.
Get in touch with nature and the wind.
Observe, study, be a student of nature.
Don't be concerned with nothing but the wind, spotting, and correction, after you've dialed the hold over.
You have no control over all the other stuff mentioned anyway....transonic, speed of sound, all variables...who cares.
You're there to hit the target with a bullet, the wind is your concern, and this variable changes constantly, and has a huge effect on impact.
Any of the rest will come into play after the shot,... and you will know.
A range finder is nice... for a decent first shot.
But you don't need any of the rest...when your not a competition shooter, for a particular shooting endeavor.
Big game? If you are actually hunting, with any hunting skills at all, every animal can be easily killed within 300 yds, where almost all high velocity cartridges will preform.
98% of big game can be killed inside 100 yds, easily...
Millions of game animals were almost wiped out with lead and blackpowder,.
The weak 44-40 has taken more deer than any modern cartridge, then along came the new powerful 30-30, to mop up the game fields.

 

[Thump_rrr]

^^^This^^^

The most useful metric for determining “Effective range” differs by discipline:

Hunting: energy below XX at target

ELR steel: hit probability below XX%, not distance at transonic. Transonic contributes to hit probability at a given distance but transonic isn’t the only factor.

LR steel: for small projectiles like 224v or 223 rem it might simply be inability to spot impacts.

This pretty much sums it up.

 

[thejeep]

When the ding gets hard to hear

 

[bulletbluesky]

"Flat fire", acceptable drop, and more than 50% probability for projectile to hit target of given size are the most common military criteria. Requirements for particular applications vary significantly

 

[Whiskey Tango Foxtrot]

What about 22lr? What about 45-70?

I have shot 22lr out to 200yds on steel using subs so you dont transition from supersonic to subsonic

 

[hlee]

What about 22lr? What about 45-70?

Many pistol cartridges…

 

[bulletbluesky]

I have shot 22lr out to 200yds on steel using subs so you dont transition from supersonic to subsonic

HV (~1250 ft/s ) 22LR should work fine at 200 yd + just as well. As matter of fact I would prefer HV 22LR over subsonic 22LR at longer ranges