What do YOU want to see from MY 14.5” winter Project?

[Nbleak21]

TLDR: What items do you want to see compared between 2 different (carbine gas vs mid piston) 14.5” builds for performance in a “Jack of all trades, SHTF” rifle you keep on standby as your “I can only grab one” 5.56 rifle?

Wordy version:

Alright, SH, for (one of) my winter project(s) I’ve settled on building a 14.5 SHTF upper… well, actually, two.

Why two? Because I couldn’t decide between the “simplicity” of something like the m4 I was issued 1.5 decades ago, which served me well for a couple tours in the sandbox, or to build a “modern” 14.5” that would have everything I would want (heavy barrel, piston operated, etc) but I personally have not actually proved out…

So, I’ve researched many of the build topics to death, and more often then not, whether in form of forum, article, YouTube video, or operator endorsement, there’s very little significant head-to-head, scientifically and statistically relevant information with quantifiable data to back up the many theories, hypotheses, and opinions provided.

For me, the proof is in the pudding, so I’m making some pudding in the caliber of 5.56.

So now that I have the direction, I’m seeking your thoughts on quantifiable measures you’d like to see in a head-to-head build, as I will be documenting this venture and want to make sure that I’m capturing items of relevant interest and also to ensure the test methods will be repeatable so that as this adventure progresses, I can test further (and different) builds against a set of standards that people like us on the
Hide would like to see.

So what’s important to you?

In example, some of mine are:
-Sound signatures, suppressed.
-Recoil impulse
-service interval requirements (IE how quick it needs cleaned)
-lowest power pet load for LRBH tune ability
-etc. etc.

 

[Longshot85]

TLDR: What items do you want to see compared between 2 different (carbine gas vs mid piston) 14.5” builds for performance in a “Jack of all trades, SHTF” rifle you keep on standby as your “I can only grab one” 5.56 rifle?

Wordy version:

Alright, SH, for (one of) my winter project(s) I’ve settled on building a 14.5 SHTF upper… well, actually, two.

Why two? Because I couldn’t decide between the “simplicity” of something like the m4 I was issued 1.5 decades ago, which served me well for a couple tours in the sandbox, or to build a “modern” 14.5” that would have everything I would want (heavy barrel, piston operated, etc) but I personally have not actually proved out…

So, I’ve researched many of the build topics to death, and more often then not, whether in form of forum, article, YouTube video, or operator endorsement, there’s very little significant head-to-head, scientifically and statistically relevant information with quantifiable data to back up the many theories, hypotheses, and opinions provided.

For me, the proof is in the pudding, so I’m making some pudding in the caliber of 5.56.

So now that I have the direction, I’m seeking your thoughts on quantifiable measures you’d like to see in a head-to-head build, as I will be documenting this venture and want to make sure that I’m capturing items of relevant interest and also to ensure the test methods will be repeatable so that as this adventure progresses, I can test further (and different) builds against a set of standards that people like us on the
Hide would like to see.

So what’s important to you?

In example, some of mine are:
-Sound signatures, suppressed.
-Recoil impulse
-service interval requirements (IE how quick it needs cleaned)
-lowest power pet load for LRBH tune ability
-etc. etc.

I like where you're going with all this.

Parts I'm making standard moving forward with any of my AR builds...

-suppressor
-Law Folder
-JP Silent capture spring

 

[Kadams1563]

Do a 13.7, Midlength, A5, muzzle break, suppressor of choice.

 

[Nbleak21]

I like where you're going with all this.

Parts I'm making standard moving forward with any of my AR builds...

-suppressor
-Law Folder
-JP Silent capture spring

Love a good LAW folder, haven’t tried the V3, yet but it’s on the List for my next lower. I’m debating between A5 & SCS… or perhaps awaiting an A5 SCS. I saw rumors or requests for such, but am unaware of any such yet!

 

[Longshot85]

Love a good LAW folder, haven’t tried the V3, yet but it’s on the List for my next lower. I’m debating between A5 & SCS… or perhaps awaiting an A5 SCS. I saw rumors or requests for such, but am unaware of any such yet!

Fill me in....I've been on a 1 year hiatus from the Hide and all new things LR related

 

[TheOE800]

Pistons are gay.

 

[Nbleak21]

Do a 13.7, Midlength, A5, muzzle break, suppressor of choice.

12.5 and 13.7 Mids are definitely on my mind for future comparisons, as is recoil impulse comparisons with Brake, Suppressor, and FH vs standard crown.

 

[Nbleak21]

Pistons are gay.

So are Miata’s… yet, I’ve owned 5 and, for the life of me I can’t help but keep one in the stable. Every time I get rid of one, I have to have another within a year or two’s time.

If pistons are that level of gay, call me fruity.

 

[mi223]

pistons are a solution looking for a problem.

I had a similar plan last year. I put together an aero lower with Geissle trigger, a5 buffer system, and then went 13.9 mid weight barrel, Midwest industry's handgaurd, and started with an eotech voodoo 1-8 but later switched to a dot.

Over all I think that form factor (length/weight) is a perfect do all rifle. My only regret I I cheaped out and went with a ballistic advantage barrel. It shoots fine but not great. I often think about a twin upper with a noveske or other custom barrel and putting the 1-8 voodoo on it.

 

[Nbleak21]

pistons are a solution looking for a problem.

I had a similar plan last year. I put together an aero lower with Geissle trigger, a5 buffer system, and then went 13.9 mid weight barrel, Midwest industry's handgaurd, and started with an eotech voodoo 1-8 but later switched to a dot.

Over all I think that form factor (length/weight) is a perfect do all rifle. My only regret I I cheaped out and went with a ballistic advantage barrel. It shoots fine but not great. I often think about a twin upper with a noveske or other custom barrel and putting the 1-8 voodoo on it.

I can see how pistons being a solution looking for a problem, as a retrofit, can be an argument for a system designed on DI gas, however there are proven piston design systems that in many ways take the cake for me. AK’s and 240B’s quickly come in mind to me as such examples.

My personal interest for a piston system design is for reduced gas in the face when shooting suppressed. I am left-eye dominant, so I shoot mostly southpaw, putting the ejection port right in my face. Other such gas mitigation systems (such as LH upper, or redesign uppers with pistons engineered into them) would not readily allow me to convert/revert to gas in the event of piston system failure, BCG failure, etc… so the retrofit option does have its merits from a compatibility perspective.

Whether it’s worth it or not, we shall see!

Given your distaste for piston on this platform, are there any tests you’d like to see proved out on why DI may be better? Your thoughts may give me more weight in making my ultimate determination, provided I can put some data behind it.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

@Nbleak21 I'd like to see a 14.5" rifle gas piston gun suppressed. Because it would be cool.

 

[Kadams1563]

@Nbleak21 I'd like to see a 14.5" rifle gas piston gun suppressed. Because it would be cool.

Then buy a CZ Bren 2 lol

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Then buy a CZ Bren 2 lol

I like cool unusual stuff, but not usually enough to invest in something that's probably a developmental dead end. They have a rifle gas system on a 14.5" barrel?

 

[Kadams1563]

Didn’t see the rifle gas comment. Is rifle gas a thing on a 14.5?

Wasn’t the stretch 16 something along those lines but a 16” barrel?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Didn’t see the rifle gas comment. Is rifle gas a thing on a 14.5?

Wasn’t the stretch 16 something along those lines but a 16” barrel?

The Stretch16 is a 16" Intermediate, which is 1.5" shy of rifle length. I've got one, and a Stretch15. Kinda boring once I figured out RLGS 16" runs perfect. I've got a 14.8" rifle gas that works great, kinda wanna piston convert it but don't feel like undoing the P&W right now.

 

[Nbleak21]

@TonyTheTiger & @Kadams1563, Rainier Arms has a 16” RLGS that I briefly considered for a build until I realized it was 1:8” twist.

I suspect a 14.5 RLGS would hold up with piston config, at least with heavyweights, so it may be worth a go! I’ll see how low a velocity I can get the pet loads to fly on the Mid-length system and if it looks like there’s room to play, i’ll plan to send an RLGS barrel out to get chopped down for some testing!

 

[TonyTheTiger]

@TonyTheTiger & @Kadams1563, Rainier Arms has a 16” RLGS that I briefly considered for a build until I realized it was 1:8” twist.

I suspect a 14.5 RLGS would hold up with piston config, at least with heavyweights, so it may be worth a go! I’ll see how low a velocity I can get the pet loads to fly on the Mid-length system and if it looks like there’s room to play, i’ll plan to send an RLGS barrel out to get chopped down for some testing!

Years back I played with really light loads. If memory serves I got 55's down to around 2000fps. Never went lower, and never actually used those loads for anything because I don't know what they were actually good for.

What's wrong with the 8 twist Rainier?

 

[greentick]

My first AR was a 20" bbl 556 cut to 16", a dissapator before it became a thing. It ran fine w 55-77gr reloads and was very soft shooting.

The Riflespeed gas block may help tweak the gas between suppressed and unsuppressed - very easy to use. One on my 12.5" 6.8:

 

[Nbleak21]

Years back I played with really light loads. If memory serves I got 55's down to around 2000fps. Never went lower, and never actually used those loads for anything because I don't know what they were actually good for.

What's wrong with the 8 twist Rainier?

Haha, I can’t say I have a good use for pet loads except for use as training wheels, but in 5.56 it’s not terribly relevant anyways.

I suppose nothing is wrong w/ 8” twist, it would likely stabilize anything I shoot just fine… but for the life of me I can’t say why I would want an 8” twist over a 7” so I guess that’s why?

 

[Nbleak21]

My first AR was a 20" bbl 556 cut to 16", a dissapator before it became a thing. It ran fine w 55-77gr reloads and was very soft shooting.

The Riflespeed gas block may help tweak the gas between suppressed and unsuppressed - very easy to use. One on my 12.5" 6.8:

View attachment 7983483

Ugh, I need to do a shorty in 6.8. It’s my favorite round yet I shoot it the least.

That looks sexy AF with the gas block like that. I’ve only run SLR AGBs, so can’t speak to Rifleworks but now you’ve got me thinking… might look mighty fine nosing out on the MK12 inspired build the damn Hide has me dreaming about making.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I suppose nothing is wrong w/ 8” twist, it would likely stabilize anything I shoot just fine… but for the life of me I can’t say why I would want an 8” twist over a 7” so I guess that’s why?

I'm somewhere around 20 5.56 barrels deep right now, pretty evenly split between 7 and 8 twist. Within the bounds of normal mag length ammo they do the exact same thing and are interchangeable. Maybe if you shoot a lot of 80+ grain stuff or tracers a 7 twist becomes desirable.

 

[Nbleak21]

I'm somewhere around 20 5.56 barrels deep right now, pretty evenly split between 7 and 8 twist. Within the bounds of normal mag length ammo they do the exact same thing and are interchangeable. Maybe if you shoot a lot of 80+ grain stuff or tracers a 7 twist becomes desirable.

Tony, this is great feedback. Thanks!

 

[Vynz]

I want to see you compare clip-on thermal vs dedicated scopes for overall use on your rifle, preferably N-vision, Pulsar, Trijicon and Steiner.

 

[Nbleak21]

I want to see you compare clip-on thermal vs dedicated scopes for overall use on your rifle, preferably N-vision, Pulsar, Trijicon and Steiner.

Vynz, while a thermal is on the horizon for me, it would be my first so I’m nowhere near the best person to do such comparisons.

My primary desired thermal use case isn’t exactly what most are after (dedicated BA rifle for running subs (8.6BLK) at <100yd). I’m currently planning a dedicated thermal scope for that rig.

Looking Hard at Pulsars or the new Sig Option for that rifle.

 

[BP 3papa 7sierra]

If you're wanting to compare a piston with little commitment, you could run the osprey defense drop in system.

 

[Nbleak21]

If you're wanting to compare a piston with little commitment, you could run the osprey defense drop in system.

I hadn’t heard of this system before.

Certainly an interesting approach.

I just received the Superlative Arms system today, which is what I will move forward with for the initial comparison, but this may make it into a future side-by-side comparison.

Interesting note on the SA piston kit… I don’t recall reading this info on the site I purchased from, but this kit explicitly states use in 300 BLK systems voids the warranty. Fortunately I didn’t buy it for that round, but I had considered such previously, and that seems like a damn significant shortcoming for a round designed for subs.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

If you're wanting to compare a piston with little commitment, you could run the osprey defense drop in system.

Never heard of them. The website has almost zero info and I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the gas block end of things. Care to explain?

 

[Nbleak21]

C

Never heard of them. The website has almost zero info and I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the gas block end of things. Care to explain?
View attachment 7985677

Tony, these look to be a direct replacement for the gas tube carbine length systems utilizing front Sight Post gas blocks.

Pop the gas tube retaining pin out of the FSP, and install this in its place. It has a built in piston/cylinder chamber that gets covered by the delta-ring mounted handguard.

Likely not much value for any configs that don’t use FSP and standard plastic fantastic handguards, but a neat idea if nothing else!

 

[TonyTheTiger]

@Nbleak21 that makes way more sense than anything I was picturing...

 

[Tigergolfer22]

12.5 mid is the way ask my checkbook how i know

 

[Nbleak21]

12.5 mid is the way ask my checkbook how i know

You running DI or Piston on the 12.5 middy?

 

[Tigergolfer22]

Di with superlative adjustable

 

[Eurodriver]

Do a 13.7, Midlength, A5, muzzle break, suppressor of choice.

Why a 13.7? Seems like a strangely specific barrel length when one can cut a barrel to any length they wish.

 

[Tigergolfer22]

13.7 with a P&w flaming pig makes 16 so it’s an available length

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Why a 13.7? Seems like a strangely specific barrel length when one can cut a barrel to any length they wish.

Lot's of them on the market and lots of muzzle devices made specifically to get a 13.7" to 16".

 

[TonyTheTiger]

12.5 mid is the way ask my checkbook how i know

I do really like my 12.5" mid, if my state allowed SBR's I'd be tempted to make it my general purpose gun. It absolutely blows my 10.5" out of the water. But my 13.7" is pretty much the same but with a real stock. But then again, all my 14.5" guns don't seem much longer than the 13.7". And so on with my 14.5" vs. 16" guns etc.
Basically the key is to have a barrel length for every mood.

 

[Nbleak21]

Di with superlative adjustable

Nice! I’ve got a 12.5 DI Rosco K9 w/ their patrol length gas tube that I’ll be sending first rounds down range this weekend… if the SA piston works out on this 14.5 build, I’ll likely run another 12.5 with mid piston…

I think I’ve started to take this “two is one” thing a little too far. First it was two firearms, then it was two rifles, then two ARs, then 2 in each calb, and now it’s growing to 2 in each barrel length… lmao

 

[Tigergolfer22]

I do really like my 12.5" mid, if my state allowed SBR's I'd be tempted to make it my general purpose gun. It absolutely blows my 10.5" out of the water. But my 13.7" is pretty much the same but with a real stock. But then again, all my 14.5" guns don't seem much longer than the 13.7". And so on with my 14.5" vs. 16" guns etc.
Basically the key is to have a barrel length for every mood.

12.5 with a short can is what I run most of the time

 

[Eurodriver]

Lot's of them on the market and lots of muzzle devices made specifically to get a 13.7" to 16".

Interesting.

 

[Obi-WanKannoli]

12.5 mid is the way ask my checkbook how i know

This. 12.5 mid with VLTOR A5 system. Smooth as silk.

 

[thedude824]

I haven't done a back to back, but I can't understand the hate for piston systems. I set my rifles up for carbine courses so I want the gas tuned pretty well. With can mounted my DI rifles start to get caked up and have feeding/ejecting issues at 200 rounds or less. Perhaps I just need to turn up the gas. In contrast my piston rifles are set to the same standard but Ive yet to have an issue in up to 400 rounds. It would be interesting to see a direct comparison of how much cleaner (in terms of carbon buildup) a piston runs versus DI. Youll probably get fed up blasting away before the piston gun has an issue. On my 300blk I've had issues in under 90 rounds. In that configuration its was one of my softer shooting guns. With the gas set to make it past the 200 round mark the recoil is sharper than any of my 556 guns and possibly my tuned SCAR 17.

 

[Docsherm]

I have several 12.5 barreled SBRs (5 to be exact). I have A5 buffer systems on them all. Most are Carbine gas and one mid gas. The 12.5 Middy is very soft shooting and with a normal gas block I have had no issues shooting it suppressed or unsuppressed.

I do prefer the carbine gas system just because it will shoot ANYTHING. Even the weakest PMC or Tula. I prefer i only for reliability reasons. The Middy is the most comfortable to shoot.

 

[Nbleak21]

I haven't done a back to back, but I can't understand the hate for piston systems. I set my rifles up for carbine courses so I want the gas tuned pretty well. With can mounted my DI rifles start to get caked up and have feeding/ejecting issues at 200 rounds or less. Perhaps I just need to turn up the gas. In contrast my piston rifles are set to the same standard but Ive yet to have an issue in up to 400 rounds. It would be interesting to see a direct comparison of how much cleaner (in terms of carbon buildup) a piston runs versus DI. Youll probably get fed up blasting away before the piston gun has an issue. On my 300blk I've had issues in under 90 rounds. In that configuration its was one of my softer shooting guns. With the gas set to make it past the 200 round mark the recoil is sharper than any of my 556 guns and possibly my tuned SCAR 17.

This would be a great comparison! My 14.5’s are different enough that I couldn’t do a complete apples to apple build… but I’ve been debating on how to handle a 12.5 HRT-inspired build that would be perfect for this…. And, as you know, 2 is One, and one can be piston! I’ll put it on the list.

 

[Nbleak21]

I have several 12.5 barreled SBRs (5 to be exact). I have A5 buffer systems on them all. Most are Carbine gas and one mid gas. The 12.5 Middy is very soft shooting and with a normal gas block I have had no issues shooting it suppressed or unsuppressed.

I do prefer the carbine gas system just because it will shoot ANYTHING. Even the weakest PMC or Tula. I prefer i only for reliability reasons. The Middy is the most comfortable to shoot.

You, Sir, are doing the things that dreams are made of. This is great feedback!

 

[CaptArab]

if the SA piston works out on this 14.5 build, I’ll likely run another 12.5 with mid piston…

I think I’ve started to take this “two is one” thing a little too far. First it was two firearms, then it was two rifles, then two ARs, then 2 in each calb, and now it’s growing to 2 in each barrel length… lmao

Any piston updates?
Intrigued by the SA kit

 

[Nbleak21]

Any piston updates?
Intrigued by the SA kit

Builds are complete, but I've had to table this due to some job related priorities... Hope to be in full swing this summer!