What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

[lolomgwut]

I'm making a little sniper scenario video game for my programming class and basically need to know the effective ranges of the following rounds when fired subsonic from optimum platforms (e.g, barrel length and twist)...also, will they cycle the ammunition:

.22LR
5.56
300 Whisper
308WIN
300WM
338Lapua

What is effective range in air and what is effective range passing through something like home window glass or car glass?

 

[SJshooter]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

Try plugging in some numbers on jbmballistics and other ballistic sites.

 

[Michael]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

According to a guy named Billy Dixon the effective range of subsonic ammunition is about 1 mile.

 

[1911fan]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

Well played, sir!

For those of you that don't know about this: Adobe Walls


1911fan

 

[kytrapper]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

A+ on the example!!!!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

Well; I'm thinking it's probably not all that different from a .45ACP hardball round.

This begs the question about why folks are building subsonics on other chamberings. I mean, it's already subsonic, it can be danged accurate, and most folks get dead fairly quickly if someone doubletaps 'em with it in an effective manner. It can probably be suppressed too, even.

IMHO, subsonic loads have pretty much always really been about duplicating handgun ammo performance in otherwise inappropriate chamberings.

Come on, folks, who are we kidding?

I fail to see the awesomely additional benefits of jumping through those extra hoops, all to end up with 45ACP-comparable performance. All ya actually gotta do is just use the real deal.

Greg

 

[desertfox01]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

sub sonic projectiles do not loose velocity like they do when running super sonic. so if a projectile with a high BC can still impact like a 45 at 400 yards. 210 Berger VLDs are loosing about 100 to 150 FPS velocity at 400 yards. now are they dropping like rocks, yes.

As far as why one might want to go with sub-sonic in a rifle over a pistol....better platform for shooting distances further then that of the standard pistol. Most people can shoot a rifle better then a pistol (I know that this may not apply to the posters on this board). better optic mounting options then on a pistol....and depending on cartridge used, better BC of the projectile which equals better range.

now as far as subsonic running semi-auto. yes, it can be done. the 300 blackout/whisper does it. I do it with my 7.62x25 tok SBR. I have seen it done with a 308 AR style....it was dedicated to sub-sonic use though. the 1st and 3rd on the list will do it. the last two are usually found in bolt guns, so yes....

 

[g3ninfinite]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well; I'm thinking it's probably not all that different from a .45ACP hardball round.

This begs the question about why folks are building subsonics on other chamberings. I mean, it's already subsonic, it can be danged accurate, and most folks get dead fairly quickly if someone doubletaps 'em with it in an effective manner. It can probably be suppressed too, even.

IMHO, subsonic loads have pretty much always really been about duplicating handgun ammo performance in otherwise inappropriate chamberings.

Come on, folks, who are we kidding?

I fail to see the awesomely additional benefits of jumping through those extra hoops, all to end up with 45ACP-comparable performance. All ya actually gotta do is just use the real deal.

Greg </div></div>

But you cant load 45acp to approach rifle ballistics. If you use a rifle catridge such as .300blk you get both mission specific loadings(sub/super).

 

[rsilvers]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

Also 45 is limited to about 100 yards whereas subsonic 300 AAC BLACKOUT has a 0.720 G1 BC and so does not slow down very much.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

Thank you for taking my opinions seriously. I was thinking I had just positioned myself perfectly for somebody to rip me a new one.

My only rebuttal might be about long range, and subsonic projectiles being more vulnerable to the vaguaries of the wind.

In a bolt gun, having sub/super cabilities is an undeniable benefit. But, in a bolt gun, the bolt face diameter for the 45ACP, .308 and .30-'06 cartridge families is also identical, so a switch barrel confguration could still work.

At any rate, I still consider the .45ACP as a viable alternative.

With thanks and respect;

Greg

 

[DPRoberts]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

Within the discussion of a sniping simulator I think that the maximum range you can actually get bullets on target is a bigger consideration than how much punch they have when they get there. Most scopes are going to run out of elevation long before the bullet loses too much energy to do its job (300-400 yards). A 210 Berger VLD from a 300 blk will still have the energy of a 9mm at 1000 yards but its dropped almost 50 mils to get there!

Regarding barrier and glass penetration, here's a website with a lot of interesting information on the subject: Box O' Truth

 

[TexIndian]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

If high BC numbers were important at pistol velocities, wouldn't we see a bunch of pistol bullets designed to take advantage of that, for competitions if for no other reason? Purely intuition here, but it seems a 210 slug from whatever platform will perform about the same as any other 210 slug under sub-sonic conditions - they won't fly any farther or hit any harder, not appreciably anyway.

 

[DPRoberts]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If high BC numbers were important at pistol velocities, wouldn't we see a bunch of pistol bullets designed to take advantage of that, for competitions if for no other reason? Purely intuition here, but it seems a 210 slug from whatever platform will perform about the same as any other 210 slug under sub-sonic conditions - they won't fly any farther or hit any harder, not appreciably anyway. </div></div>

Since there is plenty of headroom on pressure with subsonic rifle loads, the largest bullets available can be loaded to get more energy on target and retain more in flight. Using larger high BC bullets in pistol cartridges (ie. 45acp) would exceed safe pressure levels because of the limited case capacity and lower pressure tolerances.

Regarding equivalency between a subsonic pistol and subsonic rifle, a 210gr 308 will retain its velocity and energy much better than a 200-220gr 45 acp. According to JBM if both are fired at 1000fps, at 200 yards the 308 is traveling 160 fps faster and arrives with 146 ft/lbs more energy.

 

[frog5215]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

The big black powder cartridges usually start 1200-1400fps, they become slower.

 

[louboyd]

Re: What is the effective range of subsonic ammunition

I've experimented with some of these. Practical subsonics are best with muzzle velocities around 1050 fps. Above that drag and instability increase rapidly.
Mass and retained velocity determine energy. Minimum case capacity to achieve 1050 fps is desirable to get minimum velocity dispersion. Since drop is equal to 16*T^2 Feet where T is the time of flight, the drop can become huge. Time of flight is about 1 second per 300 yards for most subsonics, so at 300 yards the drop is about 16 feet. At 600 yards it's at least 64 feet. Without precision ammo, and a quality rangefinder subsonic shooting at over 300 yards not practical. A subsonic heavy low drag bullet however can be lethal at a mile or more.

Some notes on my experience:
22LR - Aquila 60 gn SSS ammo
16" TC carbine - about 12" groups at 200 yards.
28" CZ Lux - about 18" groups at 200 yards but quiet as air rifle. (long barrel has lower velocity and more dispersion.)

223 Rem - works but high case capacity is difficult to achieve low SDs. low energy. See 308Win and 300WM.

300 Whisper (orfireball,BLK,300-221) Probably the best subsonic available especially in a short action (bolt rifle) shooting heavy VLD bullets. In an AR the breach blast is loud a 10" barrel is about ideal for subsonic. A suppressor is necessary to be quiet. With carefully prepared handloads I gotten reliable 6" groups at 300 yards using a 16" 8T AAC barrel on a Rem 700. The 240 grain SMKs work well in a bolt action and deliver more energy than the 220 SMKs commonly loaded for use in AR-15s. Better case fills and lower dispersion too.

The 300 blk/whisper in a AR-15 also works. With an adjustable gas block it can shoot both sub and supersonic. I don't see much point without a suppressor. Accuracy will be poorer than with a bolt action, but the main problem is that subsonic shooting at 300 yards subsonic requires the setup time and care for each shot as shooting supersonic with larger calibers at 1000.

308Win. If you have a suppressed 308 win with a 12T it makes sense to have some subsonic loads with moderate weight non-VLD bullets. They will be quiet but not particularly accurate beyond about 200 yards. it's difficult to get low SD's with that much case capacity. 308 Win is a poor choice for a dedicated subsonic rifle.

300 WM. No advantage over the 308 WIn. Even more difficult to get low dispersion. I've never tried it, but it cant be good very good.

Again, way too much case capacity for low SDs. It might be useful to have some subsonic ammo for use in a suppressed rifle for short range. Use the same bullet.

338 lapua. Like the 308Win and 300 WM some subsoinic ammo might be handy for a suppressed rifle but it won't add any range, accuracy, and only a little more energy because of heavier bullets.

Other cartridges:
338 Whisper - (7mm BR necked up) Shoots 300 VLDs from 16" 8T barrel. Would be a choice for a suppressed dedicated bolt action over 300 yards, but not a lot of advantage over 300 Whisper. Not a common cartridge.

458x2 American - A 458 win mag cut down to 2". 16" barrel, 8T. Shoot 582 Lehigh VLDs. (BC ~1). Will fit in a Rem 700 long action and feed from the magazine. In my opinion it's better than a 50 Whisper. Useful range is (maybe) 600 yards. It's still 2 second time of flight and 64' drop. Brass, reamers and dies are available and it's a standard magnum boltface. Barrel from Pac_Nor.

l-r: 223Rem,458SOCOM(300L),338- 7BR,308Win,458SOCOM(582L),458x2(582L),7mmSTW