I do know he's in the Army. Never really cared if he is a Ranger. He's all "I got PTSD" and "we're just killing kids over there and getting my men blown up" crazy at this point. Probably one of the last people on the face of the planet that should be allowed near firearms.
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It’s funny how most the time the guy that tells everyone he’s a Ranger.... Ain’t ... now if he had Sua Sponte tatted on his bicep and said he was a door gunner on the shuttle program.. heeeee miiiite be a RANGER
Now I gotta stop drinkin' an' tellin' that story over and over again.?It’s funny how most the time the guy that tells everyone he’s a Ranger.... Ain’t ... now if he had Sua Sponte tatted on his bicep and said he was a door gunner on the shuttle program.. heeeee miiiite be a RANGER
Worked at a paintball park in my 20's. Had a guy tell me he was in the army or something and got shot with a 50 that glanced off his helmet. Said bunches of other crap as well. My boss and I were both laughing at him after he left.
Normally only shoot reloads, but for some reason I was feeling froggy that day and decided to visit my local gun store for some plinking rounds. Ask the clerk what he has for 5.56 ammunition. He points behind the counter and rattled off Wolf and Tula. I declined and asked for the PMC. Stating I didn’t care for Wolf and I wanted the brass to reload. Counter guy inquires what I don’t like about Wolf. So I state a few things like copper washed steel bullets wear on the barrel faster, ammunition inconsistency, runs dirtier....
Well the last one set him off. He then proceeds to explain to me on how the AR gas system works and that steel case Wolf running dirtier is a myth and has nothing to do with the powder Wolf loads. He states it’s because the steel case doesn’t expand when fired cause it’s steel. So all the extra gas then blows by the case and thats why and Wolf is just as good as everything else.
Haven’t been back there in two years.
Well the last one set him off. He then proceeds to explain to me on how the AR gas system works and that steel case Wolf running dirtier is a myth and has nothing to do with the powder Wolf loads. He states it’s because the steel case doesn’t expand when fired cause it’s steel. So all the extra gas then blows by the case and thats why and Wolf is just as good as everything else.
Haven’t been back there in two years.
My best group ever...... out of my .223 Bolt was with Tula steel case.
Just sayin....
Just sayin....
Never said it didn’t group good, just didn’t like what Wolf offered. Saw too many misfires, under charged rounds, overcharged rounds and various other issues with friends shooting it. Internet is littered with Wolf ammo problems. Not worth $2.00 less a box for the roll of the dice you get in my opinion.
D
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You quit going to an ammo retailer because you forgot to reload and because the clerk wasn't impressed with your vast and 'froggy' knowledge on cheap ammo. I'm thinking you got played and they are quite happy and forgot all about your water walking ass before the store closed for the day. Your boycott is working like a charm.
Boy someone seems to have quite the opinion to a conversation they weren’t present for.
I’ll play. Didn’t forget get anything. Found a new gun store on my way home from work and decided to check it out by buying a few boxes of ammunition. Something wrong with that.
My walk on water ass didn’t say shit other that what type of 5.56 ammunition do you have for sale and that I wanted brass case. The store clerk is the one who pushed Wolf steel and when I decline Wolf began to inquire why and still tried selling me Wolf.
So tell me... you go into a store and state what you want and the clerk ignores you and continues to try and sell you something you didn’t ask for. Then precededs to tell you a bull shit story about why you should buy what he want’s to sell instead of what you asked for, you going to continue to shop there..... think the only person trolling here is you.
As for my so called boycott as you put it.... glad you where there to know all the reasons why I didn’t go back. Like the better prices at my regularly visited gun store, or better selection, or how bout the fact that he kept trying to sell me something other than what I asked to buy.
So now that shit is out of the way. Since I’m some kind of dipshit elitist according you, set me straight. Is the clerk correct in his claim that when you fire Wolf steel case ammunition that the case does not expand at all to seal the chamber because it’s steel.
Cause have a few thousand empty cases that say otherwise, in just my small limited sample. Bet we can also drop a line to Hornady or Wolf for clarity also.
I’ll play. Didn’t forget get anything. Found a new gun store on my way home from work and decided to check it out by buying a few boxes of ammunition. Something wrong with that.
My walk on water ass didn’t say shit other that what type of 5.56 ammunition do you have for sale and that I wanted brass case. The store clerk is the one who pushed Wolf steel and when I decline Wolf began to inquire why and still tried selling me Wolf.
So tell me... you go into a store and state what you want and the clerk ignores you and continues to try and sell you something you didn’t ask for. Then precededs to tell you a bull shit story about why you should buy what he want’s to sell instead of what you asked for, you going to continue to shop there..... think the only person trolling here is you.
As for my so called boycott as you put it.... glad you where there to know all the reasons why I didn’t go back. Like the better prices at my regularly visited gun store, or better selection, or how bout the fact that he kept trying to sell me something other than what I asked to buy.
So now that shit is out of the way. Since I’m some kind of dipshit elitist according you, set me straight. Is the clerk correct in his claim that when you fire Wolf steel case ammunition that the case does not expand at all to seal the chamber because it’s steel.
Cause have a few thousand empty cases that say otherwise, in just my small limited sample. Bet we can also drop a line to Hornady or Wolf for clarity also.
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Some gun stores I cringe at going back to. Being treated like that as a customer isn't fun. Problem for me is, they usually have something my regular store doesn't, or is less expensive.
As to getting something pushed on you that you don't want, just push back, ask to talk to the manager or owner. Twist the knife a little and ask if they can get what you want.
Now that you mention it, my worst treatment (where I didn't want to go back to a store) was a guy was in looking at pistols. He'd had the guy behind the counter (not the owner) show him several but couldn't make up his mind what he wanted. He didn't know anything really about handguns. He was frustrating. So, I waited in silence (which is unusual for me) as I saw the situation was a little intense. A call comes in and the counter guy asks if the customer minds if he takes it. While on the phone the customer turns to me and asks about a gun he had on the counter. I told him that was about the best buy you could find anywhere in town. I shop all over and you are not going to find a deal as good as what the guy showed you. I gave the shop my full support. So, the counter guy gets off the phone and the customer tells him he needs to go outside and call someone. When he's out the door, the counter guy says to me, "I'll sell the guns in this shop if you don't mind." I said, "He asked, and I told him it was about a good a deal as anything he would find in town. FWIW, I frequent a lot of gunshops and it was a great deal the guy got offered. The cheapskate just thought he could get it for lower."
Anyhow, I didn't go back to that shop for a year. One day I run into the owner and he asks why I didn't come in anymore. I told him the story. he said that'll change. The counter guy apparently had just found out he had cancer. It had been made clear to him over several issues that the guy wanted to keep him on. They were friends. But, he can't go pissing customers off.
Didn’t attack bender. Did I somehow fat finger quote him or something that’s not showing up on my screen?
I once made the comment I'd take one good machinist over a dozen engineers.
Oddly, I was unemployed a week later; supposedly for some lame and arbitrary excuse unrelated to the comment. Uh-Huh....
My views have not changed since, but I tend to be a bit less open about them....
Greg
Oddly, I was unemployed a week later; supposedly for some lame and arbitrary excuse unrelated to the comment. Uh-Huh....
My views have not changed since, but I tend to be a bit less open about them....
Greg
You'll be fine shooting Wolf. I too have issues with the tightness of the quality control. I haven't seen one blow a primer yet, though. Do understand that bare steel cases (cleaned) are a bit rougher on your chamber. And, laquered cases leave it full of laquer. You have to clean it more. I have shot some and gotten good accuracy. It is by no means my best group out of any of my .223/5.56 rifles. Not saying it won't group, I just don't rely on it for that.
The other thing @DRandi didn't want it for, is you can't reload the cases. The issue that I read was more of a clerk pushing something after someone said no to it.
Engineer here.... can confirm you are correct in your line of thinking.
Most machinists are better engineers than actual engineers are anyways.
To a civilian? I'd do my best to point out the error of their ways. To someone who has made a contribution to our country but was poorly trained about ballistics but really believes this stuff? I just smiled and nodded. Not sure if I'll ever attempt to set him straight.
I had a guy tell me yesterday that silencers only work on .556 subsonic rounds. Anything more than that just doesn't work. I tried to enlighten, but you could tell that that just wasn't going to work. Plus, in the last month, I have 2 different people tell me that the bullet rises as soon as it comes out of the barrel.
OK;
For the most part, pretty much everything that salesman told you is in line with the exhaustive test and report linked below.
I scanned the report for this post several times and could neither confirm nor refute any data on whether the necks and/or cases failed to expand conventionally during firing.
On my own part, I did some pretty intensive experimentation with TulAmmo Boxer Primed 55gr steel case ammo, going so far as to reload several hundred of the ones that were Boxer primed, and even developing a 75gr Match handload using the cases.
During the project fired case necks and primer pockets were carefully measured after every firing for diameter and case neck thickness. I was unable to detect any measurable dimensional deviations using my basic reloading dial caliper.
I reloaded mine 5 times and stopped at that point because the cases were not really .223/5/56 cases; their volume was considerably smaller, almost as small as a 222.
Because of this I abandoned a fairly extensive report I had been accumulating, because I did not think it wise to write something about reloading a deceptively small case that someone else may gloss over reading and try to load with regular brass case loads.
It was a liability case just begging to happen.
For the record, never attempt to reload steel .223/5.56 cartridge cases. It's dangerous way beyond any normal reloading project.
Brass vs Steel Case torture test report
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I read that report when it came out. What the salesman tried telling was incorrect. That report dose not agree with the salesman. It confirms everything I said.
Per that report you linked, copper plated steel projectiles do accelerate wear on the barrel. “ Brown Bear and Wolf carbines exhibited significant accuracy loss by the 6,000 round mark. It is quite possible that this first started occurring earlier than 6,000 rounds, because groups at 4,000 were well within standards of 5MOA or less, while some shots at 6,000 “keyholed,” or impacted the target sideways“
“As indicated by accuracy testing, the steel cased/bimetal jacketed ammunition caused accelerated wear to the inside of their respective bores.”
The cheaper ammunition had multiple cycling issues. “Brown Bear carbine’s gas tube and gas key were so fouled with carbon after 5,000 rounds that it would no longer function reliably. Nearly the same level of buildup was found on the replacement key and tube after they had seen just short of 5000 rounds”
The cheaper ammunition produced more fouling. Not going to copy quote more paragraphs, see above.
My first experiences with Wolf ammunition goes back to 06. Wolf had lots of problems back then. Some very serious, like very over pressure rounds. I never had a case rupture from it, but I had friends that did. The steel case cheap stuff has gotten much much better since then, I just don’t care for it.
Anyway that’s not the dumb thing the salesman pitched. He’s stated that when a steel case is fired it does not expand. As in remains the exact same dimension as a new unfired case during the firing process and because it does not expand the combustion gasses go past the case into the receiver.
This is simply not true. The steel case of a steel case 5.56 round expands exactly the same as a brass case to seal the chamber while under pressure. Also confirmed from a simple call to Hornady who also has steel case 5.56. The barrel around the chamber will distort some during firing. This is what a piezo electric pressure trace strain gauge reads. So given how thick the steel is around the case and it still moves some 0.0005” under 60,000 psi. There is absolutely no way the wall of steel case 5.56 round that measures 0.013-0.015” thickness is not going to expand till it hits a immovable object, the chamber wall.
Further more if the case did not expand to grip the chamber walls when fired it is possible to damage the rifle by excessive bolt thrust. Also confirmed from speaking to the tech department of FN rifles, (yes I know about their “gas lubricated chambers to aid extraction”. That’s a entirely different topic). It’s why manufactures place a 600ish grit finish on the inside of the chamber and not a super polished finish. To grip the case under firing.
You can also read about this effect in most rifle owners manuals where they mention wet ammunition may increase bolt thrust due to the case not adhering to the chamber walls. If you want to see the phenomenon yourself. Take a round and coat the case in some Imperial wax, chamber and fire. Bet it comes out looking like a hot loaded round. Now I have never felt the urge to test this, so I’ll just take the manufactures word on it.
DR, the similar expansion was what I had intuited; but I had no means for observing that expansion underway, and my post firing dimensional examination was completely inconclusive.
Five firings and the cases were dimensionally unchanged. But stress analysis was beyond my means and I really thought that would have sent me running and screaming.
Personally, I think you're right, I just can't confirm it.
Greg
Five firings and the cases were dimensionally unchanged. But stress analysis was beyond my means and I really thought that would have sent me running and screaming.
Personally, I think you're right, I just can't confirm it.
Greg
Oh no it was never about the difference in metallurgical expansion rate of brass vs steel under pressure and the relative rate of spring back after firing. That’s purely a symantec’s point when discussing whether or not a .014” wall thickness case can prevent expansion while exposed to 60+ksi of pressure.
David
So, did he mean subsonic in general or anything bigger than 5.56? If his opinion dealt with subsonic vs. supersonic then he's kind of correct. The snap (aka mini-sonic boom) can't be dampened by a suppressor. And, it's surprisingly loud. Only the sound of the expelled gasses can be dampened by the suppressor.
Then again, if he meant bigger than 5.56 caliber, he is, as you said, full of shit.
if you keep doing that youll go blind...boy was my parents ever wrong!
I'm an engineer and I too would take one good machinist over a dozen engineers. I love machinists. They always seem to know the right answer and why something won't work in real life even if it works on paper. All you have to do to be the smartest engineer in the room is do what the machinist said to. Haha.
Yes, at one time I was a journeyman tool maker/mold maker, I have seen the engineer thing way too many times.
I totally understand the subsonic thing. he was also talking about a bigger caliber than .223/5.56.
I totally understand the subsonic thing. he was also talking about a bigger caliber than .223/5.56.
Dumbest marksmanship stuff I ever heard was that shit they teach in army basic training. What a fucking joke. "Forget what you know and pay attention". Yeah, funny, because that's EXACTLY what we had to tell infantrymen coming through the SBASC for SDM training (when WE ran the SDM program at Ft. Lewis before Benning ripped it off).
Heard ALL SORTS of shit from soldiers there!
Heard about the .50 skinning people (they no shit teach that in basic at the fucking .50 class!).
Heard about the 5.56 being "most deadly" but that guy mentioned above had his story mixed up: there was the famous "Iraqi Ass Shot of 2003" that resulted in a general letter stating anyone using non issue ammo would be court martialed. Supposedly some unit used "uber deadly ammo" that went in the chest or shoulder and exited the ass. IF that happened, the ammo in question was actually fired by a private contractor and not the military. Still resulted in that general letter. I talked to the mfg. of that ammo around that time (one of our jobs was to test shit and of course we tested shit we were interested in). That general letter prevented that. So no Iraqi ass ammo has ever been issued in the army. Promise.
Heard not to hold your pinky under a fuzed practice grenade --then salivating I watched the instructor do that VERY thing while he was talking, throw the safety, pull the pin, let the spoon fly and... POP! Blood pouring out of his hand. I'd have said something but they wanted us to be quiet...
Heard soldiers argue to the mat that a bullet fired and a bullet dropped will land on the ground at different times given the same height.
Heard I was "irresponsible and shouldn't own weapons" because I didn't specifically use #9 shot and preferred 00 in a shotgun, that I didn't give a fuck about my neighbors (didn't argue with man-tits long enough to let him know I use an M4 for HD anyway, that'd have probably sent him apoplectic!).
Heard a bullet fired straight up with zero energy measured along the cosine will still come back down with lethal force. Talking about small arms fire here. I've done the math and taken hits harder than that to the skull, no, they don't penetrate. Not even close. We did this problem in physics, it's simply the penny off the skyscraper problem!
Uh, heard a lot more, some too crazy to even be able to put in words.
Heard ALL SORTS of shit from soldiers there!
Heard about the .50 skinning people (they no shit teach that in basic at the fucking .50 class!).
Heard about the 5.56 being "most deadly" but that guy mentioned above had his story mixed up: there was the famous "Iraqi Ass Shot of 2003" that resulted in a general letter stating anyone using non issue ammo would be court martialed. Supposedly some unit used "uber deadly ammo" that went in the chest or shoulder and exited the ass. IF that happened, the ammo in question was actually fired by a private contractor and not the military. Still resulted in that general letter. I talked to the mfg. of that ammo around that time (one of our jobs was to test shit and of course we tested shit we were interested in). That general letter prevented that. So no Iraqi ass ammo has ever been issued in the army. Promise.
Heard not to hold your pinky under a fuzed practice grenade --then salivating I watched the instructor do that VERY thing while he was talking, throw the safety, pull the pin, let the spoon fly and... POP! Blood pouring out of his hand. I'd have said something but they wanted us to be quiet...
Heard soldiers argue to the mat that a bullet fired and a bullet dropped will land on the ground at different times given the same height.
Heard I was "irresponsible and shouldn't own weapons" because I didn't specifically use #9 shot and preferred 00 in a shotgun, that I didn't give a fuck about my neighbors (didn't argue with man-tits long enough to let him know I use an M4 for HD anyway, that'd have probably sent him apoplectic!).
Heard a bullet fired straight up with zero energy measured along the cosine will still come back down with lethal force. Talking about small arms fire here. I've done the math and taken hits harder than that to the skull, no, they don't penetrate. Not even close. We did this problem in physics, it's simply the penny off the skyscraper problem!
Uh, heard a lot more, some too crazy to even be able to put in words.
Stykervet,
I was told I was irresponsible (and probably shouldn't get to own guns) for shooting prairie dogs and gophers past 200 yds. "I had no business shooting at what i wasn't sure I could kill with one shot." They're rodents. What we don't kill immediately gets eaten by scavengers. When hit with a high power rifle, they die pretty quick.
I was told I was irresponsible (and probably shouldn't get to own guns) for shooting prairie dogs and gophers past 200 yds. "I had no business shooting at what i wasn't sure I could kill with one shot." They're rodents. What we don't kill immediately gets eaten by scavengers. When hit with a high power rifle, they die pretty quick.
This engineer banter reminds me of a time when I represented my GM plant at Toyota's BAMA (Bluegrass Automotive Manufacturers Association) meetings in Bowling Green KY. At one meeting Toyota had Mr. Toyota, Tatsuro Toyoda here to address the membership. Interestingly, during his speech he made it very clear that Toyota did not want to see Ronald Reagan elected president as they saw it as detrimental to their business. This was a time when everybody was getting "Lean" and anything from Toyota was the gospel, Later, after the speech he was on the floor walking around and engaging groups of guests who were mostly people who were engineers or were plant managers and previously engineers and during one of these session I and many others heard him say "The factory of the future will have two employees" the room fell silent as he had everyone's full attention. Then he said there will be a dog and an engineer. The look on most of the faces in the room was priceless. He went on to say the engineers job will be to feed the dog and the dogs job will be to keep the engineer aways from the machines.
Yeah, wasn't sure that applied fully to pest or vector control. Poison is MUCH worse... Bet they'd be all for that though.
Wonder what the chances are of calling a shot like that and actually nailing it?
I've done some crazy shit that panned out before, seen some crazy shit too... But I know when it's an anomaly. I guess trick shots are the shooting worlds version of big fish tales!
I've done some crazy shit that panned out before, seen some crazy shit too... But I know when it's an anomaly. I guess trick shots are the shooting worlds version of big fish tales!
Bender and Stryker,
I forgot to add, the guy who chastized me for shooting prairie dogs past 200 was a member of our gun club. I couldn't help myself in front of how many members right there. I said WTF?!?!?
I forgot to add, the guy who chastized me for shooting prairie dogs past 200 was a member of our gun club. I couldn't help myself in front of how many members right there. I said WTF?!?!?
D
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That I can't be a Free Mason and a Roman Catholic or I risk being excommunicated from the latter. It is true but dumb as fucking shit. I wasn't excommunicated when I told the Bishop he needs to learn fucking Russian with an attitude like that. But I ended it with, "but I will pray for you." Same thing when I asked what are we going to do about the fucking Irish. That came about when he was going around promoting support for the Dreamers.
This guy I'm talkin about has made more "impossible shots" than anybody ever. It's just funny cause he is actually a pretty good buddy of mine and I've learned to ignore most horse shit that comes out of his mouth. I've shot enough with him to know he is about a 1/8 as good as he claims he is. It's fun to embarrass him at the range but then I gotta listen about him having a off day. He only shoots good by himself for sure. In all reality he probably taught Tom Knapp everything he knew. Ha.
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