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Which cartridge for 6mm gas gun for PRS style matches?

TimK

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Jan 13, 2010
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www.timkulincabinetry.com
I'm kicking around the idea of a gasser for PRS and the like. I'd like to do some research on 6mm cartridges that can get me as close as possible to the performance of my Dasher. (105's at 3,000) I know I can't match that, just wanting to see how close I can get.

Large or small frame is fine. Long barrels are fine. Wildcats are fine, but not my favorite.

I'm happy to do my own research, I just need a list of candidates. If you care to comment on them, of course I'd love to hear it.
 
As you I kicked a AR-10 gasser around for a couple of years. Never was impressed with them until the 6.5 and 6 creedmoors. I ended up choosing a JP LPR-07 in 6 creed because thats what my bolt gun is chambered in.

I have no details on performance for I only have 5 rounds through the rifle.

Lots of knowledge here at snipershide on your post so I'll be watching this as well.
 
I was not happy with my 6 CM. All JP internals(including barrel) with Mega receivers. Accuracy was stellar, no complaints there. However I was never able to get the velocity I wanted. Best I could do with Hornady brass was 2890. Beyond that I would start getting loose primers and popping primer. Switching to lapua small rifle primer brass helped and allowed me to push to 2960, but I didn't like running expensive brass in a gas gun.

If I were to do a 6mm gas gun again, it would be fat rat on a small frame.

Nothing against JP as their products were excellent. I just think the platform was the limitation.

I've switched to a 6.5 CM barrel but have not had time to put it together.
 
22" Bartlein 6.5cm shooting 123 Lapua Scenars or 130 AR Hybrids would be my choice. I am on my 2nd Bartlein barrel. With +2 gas, AGB and JP SCS Heavy the gun runs like a swiss watching, is soft shooting and extremely accurate. With Hornady brass in the 2800-2900 range you cant go wrong and I would suspect you can go higher with the new Lapua 6.5cm SR brass...

On a MEGA Billet Receiver Set. First Bartlein done by Keystone Accuracy and current done by PVA

130 AR Hybrid H4350 OCW

TfZ0JMI.jpg


123 Lapua H4350

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Seating Depth Test

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I’m running a 20” 6mm Fat Rat and getting 2750 fps with 107 SMKs and others claim I could get more velocity if I switched powder. Currently running Varget. Once worn out I plan to replace it with a 22-24”.
 
As good as the 224V sounds, I figured I’d try and get a jump on making it into a 6mm. Had the guys at JGS draw up a reamer (with zero free ore for starters) for basically a straight neck up on the 224V. I Wanted no free bore so I can hotrod the vmax bullets for hunting and add free bore if I wanted to try something else in the future. The idea came to me since I have both a bolt and AR in 6x45 and seemed easy enough to do the same with the 224 Valkyrie. As far as I can tell I even think the reamer will fully clean up the 6x45 chamber if I wanted to repurpose the barrels. Even had my tikka 223 bolt face opens up for the Larger Valkyrie.
 
Hard to say as I’m hoping for useable velocities in 16-18 inch barrels which NO ONE is testing with the Valkyrie right now. If I was to say, I’d expect 34-3500 FPS with the 58 vmax (my go to for coyote calling and prairie dogs). My dream setup would be 18 carbon barrel with 10 twist for 87 vmaxes. Time will tell.
 
What length barrel and what length gas? Do you have any guesses on what velocity you might achieve?
I went with a 22" barrel and rifle length gas system. Sent my bolt in to get the barrel properly headspaced as well

To be honest, I'm not sure what kind of velocities I'll be looking at. I'm shooting the 115dtac with 40gr of H4350 out of my 26" bolt gun at 3025, so I'm guessing I'll be in the 2950-2975 range?

Just got the call that my barrel is shipping today...I'm hoping to have some real world numbers in a few weeks...as long as the Chicago weather isn't too bad
 
I'm curious as to the velocity of the 108 eld bullets. Given the larger bore diameter I'm betting they can ALMOST be pushed as hard as the 224V with the 90 Sierra's..
Seems like most 6mm Grendel guys with 20 something inch barrels max out between 27-2800fps with 105's. I can't imagine a 6mm Valkyrie pushing 108's much past 2500fps in a shorter barrel and with less powder capacity than the Grendel.
 
That's seems legit. As much as id love to run the 6 Valkyrie in a match setting, I do hundreds to thousands more shooting on varmints. Someone said the 224V is basically a 223AI with less pressure, I will take that in 6mm. Everything is so new it's hard to say exactly what true performance really is and to get reasonable velocities without fireforming is a plus in my book.
 
I never had an issue with .308 mags. Pmags, SR-25, larue all worked. Only issues I had with feeding were bullet related and not mag related.

Are you saying that a 6mm CM (or others) won't work in the mag? Or that some bullets because of shape or length have issues? I don't know how to separate mag from bullet issues, since either it works or it doesn't.
 
Are you saying that a 6mm CM (or others) won't work in the mag? Or that some bullets because of shape or length have issues? I don't know how to separate mag from bullet issues, since either it works or it doesn't.

Some bullets would not feed. 110 SMK was the worst. It was too long and skinny and would fit between the barrel extension lugs without tipping upwards and jamming into the back of the barrel.

This was regardless of which mag i used.
 
I ran a JP barrel with a 107 SMK at 15 thou jump, this gave me a 2.791 overall case length. This combination worked best in Magpuls; though, Larue mags have more room. The 107 SMK feed well, but I did have issues with other bullets.

I have since switch to a different barrel and can report on my new load specifications when I get some free time to shoot it.
 

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6mm ART40/6FatRat... Was running 105 Hybrids at ~2850 fps magazine fed with a 25" barrel with 1/2 MOA accuracy on my previous barrel. Current barrel is very finicky and not getting accuracy at the high node, but suspect a chambering/fitment issue. Getting best accuracy at 2755 with the 105's and 2740 with 108 BT's in the new barrel. Was able to push the 95 TMK's up to 3000 fps without pressure, but accuracy wasn't there in this barrel...

Shot this caliber in a few matches with the old barrel. 0.730" muzzle diameter/no brake and recoil was negligible. With a heavier barrel and a brake, recoil management would be excellent.
 
6mm ART40/6FatRat... Was running 105 Hybrids at ~2850 fps magazine fed with a 25" barrel with 1/2 MOA accuracy on my previous barrel. Current barrel is very finicky and not getting accuracy at the high node, but suspect a chambering/fitment issue. Getting best accuracy at 2755 with the 105's and 2740 with 108 BT's in the new barrel. Was able to push the 95 TMK's up to 3000 fps without pressure, but accuracy wasn't there in this barrel...

Shot this caliber in a few matches with the old barrel. 0.730" muzzle diameter/no brake and recoil was negligible. With a heavier barrel and a brake, recoil management would be excellent.
Turbo 40 is a great cartridge. Downfall is it needs ? formed.
? forming loads produce great accuracy too though.
 
If the 224V case burns like it does in the 6.8 everyone will be surprised at what it does in short barrels. But I am a novice/intermediate reloader so I really dont understand why the 6.8 does so well in a 16 or shorter barrel.
 
I had a 6mmART40 Krieger upper once, it was very accurate. I ran it hot which was a mistake because doing so caused the barrel to loosen from the extension after a six months or so and the reliability wasn't the best. (I think the high pressures would make the case body grab the chamber wall) ???

Once I got that fixed and loaded to normal pressures it ran well. I won some night matches with it and finished #2 at a bigger tactical match against bolt guns. That was back when they had that stupid rule that if you ran a semi auto you had to unload between movement. If only I could have just put the safety on instead, arggg.

I lent it to friends at times. One guy kept hitting the 10" plate at 807Y over and over, while the rest of us with our bolt rifles weren't so lucky. Another friend got the coldbore and follow up shot at the beginning of the match. Maybe 10% of us got it that day, it was around the same size at 700Y.

I originally was using 105 Amax at 2875 fps, which was the hot load and very accurate, slowed it down to low 28's later on and it became reliable but not as accurate. When the barrel got worn I slowed it down even more to 2740 fps which cut it's balls off in the wind compared to the hot load.

I use a FatRat now with 95SMK's going 2870 fps. With the Wilson barrel it's not quite as accurate as the other upper but is close in the wind and recoil is noticeably less. Though part of that is it's braked despite the other upper being very heavy.

Just sharing my experience with these cartridges.

FYI, I had a 243 DPMS large frame and the heavier BCG coming back moved the rifle much more than the regular AR BCG.
 
I had a 6mmART40 Krieger upper once, it was very accurate. I ran it hot which was a mistake because doing so caused the barrel to loosen from the extension after a six months or so and the reliability wasn't the best. (I think the high pressures would make the case body grab the chamber wall) ???

Once I got that fixed and loaded to normal pressures it ran well. I won some night matches with it and finished #2 at a bigger tactical match against bolt guns. That was back when they had that stupid rule that if you ran a semi auto you had to unload between movement. If only I could have just put the safety on instead, arggg.

I lent it to friends at times. One guy kept hitting the 10" plate at 807Y over and over, while the rest of us with our bolt rifles weren't so lucky. Another friend got the coldbore and follow up shot at the beginning of the match. Maybe 10% of us got it that day, it was around the same size at 700Y.

I originally was using 105 Amax at 2875 fps, which was the hot load and very accurate, slowed it down to low 28's later on and it became reliable but not as accurate. When the barrel got worn I slowed it down even more to 2740 fps which cut it's balls off in the wind compared to the hot load.

I use a FatRat now with 95SMK's going 2870 fps. With the Wilson barrel it's not quite as accurate as the other upper but is close in the wind and recoil is noticeably less. Though part of that is it's braked despite the other upper being very heavy.

Just sharing my experience with these cartridges.

FYI, I had a 243 DPMS large frame and the heavier BCG coming back moved the rifle much more than the regular AR BCG.


I love my 6mm Fat Rat , you and I need to compare notes, I'm thinking about going with a 26" Bartlein instead of the 22" Bart barrel. Did you have Lee Wells build yours?
 
I have a 26" 7.5t bartlein 6 fat rat that Lee Wells chambered for me last spring. I've only run fire forming loads through it but it hammers. I had a 26" 6 AR Turbo 40 a few years back that shot 105 vld's at 2880 with good accuracy. Great little round. The *only* problem I see with it is fire forming, but a few hundred pieces can be formed in practice and if you modify the ejector spring you can get it to not fling the brass so far away. A 6xc or 6 creedmoor would be the easy button though.
 
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I have a 26" 7.5t bartlein 6 fat rat that Lee Wells chambered for me last spring. I've only run fire forming loads through it but it hammers. I had a 26" 6 AR Turbo 40 a few years back that shot 105 vld's at 2880 with good accuracy. Great little round. The *only* problem I see with it is fire forming, but a few hundred pieces can be formed in practice and if you modify the ejector spring you can get it to not fling the brass so far away. A 6xc or 6 creedmoor would be the easy button though.

I thought about going with a 6CM but you loose the ease of shooting a small frame AR, it cost more, and your not really gaining much performance wise. As far as Fire Forming I use 28.8grs of R15, 107 SMK, Lapua Brass and it's actually my most accurate load!! SUB .5 MOA to .6 all day.

What MZ are you getting??
 
I thought about going with a 6CM but you loose the ease of shooting a small frame AR, it cost more, and your not really gaining much performance wise. As far as Fire Forming I use 28.8grs of R15, 107 SMK, Lapua Brass and it's actually my most accurate load!! SUB .5 MOA to .6 all day.

What MZ are you getting??

A 6 Creed will push a 105-107 class bullet around 2980, out of a 22 inch barrel before it’s too hot. I would personally prefer to carry a 22” large frame gun that runs 100 fps faster with no fireforming requirement, over a 26” barreled small frame gun that is 100 fps slower.
 
I thought about going with a 6CM but you loose the ease of shooting a small frame AR, it cost more, and your not really gaining much performance wise. As far as Fire Forming I use 28.8grs of R15, 107 SMK, Lapua Brass and it's actually my most accurate load!! SUB .5 MOA to .6 all day.

What MZ are you getting??

2650-2700 with berger 108's and 8208 xbr. I think it's around 27-28 gr. I haven't shot it in a while, I fire formed maybe 100 pieces and got too busy to keep going with it, but I will probably pick it back up this spring.
 
I love my 6mm Fat Rat , you and I need to compare notes, I'm thinking about going with a 26" Bartlein instead of the 22" Bart barrel. Did you have Lee Wells build yours?

Yes, Lee did the upper.

I don't feel the small gain in FPS was worth the extra 4" that my other upper had but I wanted a handier rifle this time. I plan to stay with 22". I mostly shoot it inside 1000Y.

Might do a 224V at some point and compare the two, probably do 22" on that as well.

PM me and we'll compare notes.
 
Yes, Lee did the upper.

I don't feel the small gain in FPS was worth the extra 4" that my other upper had but I wanted a handier rifle this time. I plan to stay with 22". I mostly shoot it inside 1000Y.

Might do a 224V at some point and compare the two, probably do 22" on that as well.

PM me and we'll compare notes.

I have 6mm FatRat 22" Bartlein 5R 1-8T, Fluted, Treaded 5/8-24 with Custom Barrel Extension that Lee made if your interested, around 300rds down the pipe. I'd like to Sell the barrel and JP Bolt to try out a 26". Send me a PM if your interested.