Who here has given up....

[Deadshot2]

I just built a new AR15 to replace the two i sold last year. Still a fun gun to shoot and ring steel with. Getting to old to run from the zombies.

My problem is that I bought my first AR and started to "Accessorize" it. Had a lot of parts left over. That caused me to order more parts to complete the second and again I started accessorizing it. History repeated itself again and I now have three with only one having mostly OE parts. Darn things are infectious.

 

[Deepwoods]

I haven't seen anyone comment on the 55gr's ability to catch a tail wind better than the heavier rounds, and therefore increase its speed on its way to the target. That's a real thing, right?

I'm relatively new to shooting, and grew up in the DC area (and had limited exposure to the shooting sports). My rifle collection is limited to 556 and 308 gas guns, set up for a range of uses. I love the modularity of the AR platform, the contradictory ease and challenge of shooting them, their accuracy, and range of uses. And Maryland's new gun law ensured I stocked up on lowers, so I have to like the AR15.

I find the 55 gr ammo good for practicing basics at my 100 yard range, good for introducing new shooters to rifle shooting, and not overwhelmingly cost prohibitive. For the more serious stuff, I'll choose the 75-77gr cartridge. I do have .22LR uppers, which are fun too, but I like the more visceral experience of the 556...

I think LRRPF52's comment on geography is a relevant one. I am in the DC area, where many of the ranges are 100 yards, or slightly farther. That combined with the shooting I like to do makes the AR15 a viable platform. I'd love to plink with my 308 AR--and I do occasionally--but my wallet and shoulder wouldn't last as long as I'd like.

There is certainly a bolt gun in some other caliber in my future.

 

[ridenrunwv]

Geography is a huge part of it. If you live in an area where you just can't shoot past a couple hundred yards, then there is no reason for you to spend the money for a high end precision weapon capable of shooting 1000+ yards.

 

[OneCleanShot]

My kids love to shoot the AR15. It makes a big boom and has almost no recoil. I have a place to shoot 1000 yds and so have begun enjoying local competitions of various types with a RRA LAR8 (.308) AR10 type rifle. It is the Varmint A4 with the 26" cryo-treated SS heavy Wilson barrel.

I guess the challenges of reloading and the variables of shooting the 308 (or any other caliber) to 1000 yds is much more interesting for me these days.

 

[DP425]

No I know exactly what I saw. And now I see people who weren't there trying to tell me they better know what I saw than I do.

You GOTTA love the interwebz. lol

So you're telling me you saw the bullet impact the leaf then begin a tumble and then strike the paper on its side?


What you're obviously missing here is, though I wasn't there, it doesn't take a genius to see your only speculating on what happened. So you found a leaf on the ground with a hole approx .22 in diameter... That means what exactly? A bullet is the only way a leave can have a hole in it?

 

[DP425]

People....GET OVER the combat scenarios / analogies. I told you - this isn't a thread about combat.

Its about the usefulness I PERSONALLY find for the 223 / 5,56, and most particularly the 55 grain 5.56

So why the fuck did you start this thread if you don't want others to comment on the usefulness they PERSONALLY find for the .223/5.56? Sounds to me like you wanted to post a comment and have no one reply. Except for the fact that you posted a question asking what others think.

For people who have taken the 5.56 to combat, their personal usefulness for the caliber is based upon their experiences of its performance on humans... and you want to tell them that experience doesn't count? How about hunters who use .223 on deer? Does their experience not count either?


Okay... I get it... the only experience that counts is your grossly unlikely speculation on a keyhole bullet impact you experienced. Fuck people who use it to actually kill. Thanks for that narcissistic explanation.

 

[Deadshot2]

For people who have taken the 5.56 to combat, their personal usefulness for the caliber is based upon their experiences of its performance on humans... and you want to tell them that experience doesn't count? How about hunters who use .223 on deer? Does their experience not count either?

Not to mention the various "vermin" of all sizes and shapes (2 and 4 legged) that have met the so called inadequacies of the .223/5.56mm bullet.

Okay... I get it... the only experience that counts is your grossly unlikely speculation on a keyhole bullet impact you experienced. Fuck people who use it to actually kill. Thanks for that narcissistic explanation.

Welcome to the world of the "Internet Warrior".

 

[garandman]

So you're telling me you saw the bullet impact the leaf then begin a tumble and then strike the paper on its side?


What you're obviously missing here is, though I wasn't there, it doesn't take a genius to see your only speculating on what happened. So you found a leaf on the ground with a hole approx .22 in diameter... That means what exactly? A bullet is the only way a leave can have a hole in it?

No.

I saw the perfect .223 hole in the leaf. Still on its branch, still attached to the tree, and directly behind it I saw the keyhole in the target.

Suggestion: Know what you are talking about it before you get all uppity and start cursing at people.

But like you said.... you weren't there. So knowing nothing is exactly what we'd expect. See immediately below...

 

[garandman]

So why the fuck did you start this thread if you don't want others to comment on the usefulness they PERSONALLY find for the .223/5.56? Sounds to me like you wanted to post a comment and have no one reply. Except for the fact that you posted a question asking what others think.

For people who have taken the 5.56 to combat, their personal usefulness for the caliber is based upon their experiences of its performance on humans... and you want to tell them that experience doesn't count? How about hunters who use .223 on deer? Does their experience not count either?


Okay... I get it... the only experience that counts is your grossly unlikely speculation on a keyhole bullet impact you experienced. Fuck people who use it to actually kill. Thanks for that narcissistic explanation.

Yer a pretty angry dude. Relax. Read. Think. Discuss. The internet is more fun that way.

No, I never said combat veterans experience isn't valid for them.

I said I'm not in combat ever. My firearms usage is primarily (almost exclusively) for fun and enjoyment, target practice, etc.

And for that reason I almost never ever shoot AR15's anymore.

If you weren't spitting, fuming and cursing, you'd understand that means I'm specifically saying (in fact, I specifically said, above) the .223 / AR15 has a VERY legit combat usage. But since I'm never in combat, I don't find them a gun I shoot very often.

Blind rage and internet cursing often makes the obvious invisible to those who spew rage.

 

[Deadshot2]

Yer a pretty angry dude. Relax. Read. Think. Discuss. The internet is more fun that way.

No, I never said combat veterans experience isn't valid for them.

I said I'm not in combat ever. My firearms usage is primarily (almost exclusively) for fun and enjoyment, target practice, etc.

And for that reason I almost never ever shoot AR15's anymore.

If you weren't spitting, fuming and cursing, you'd understand that means I'm specifically saying (in fact, I specifically said, above) the .223 / AR15 has a VERY legit combat usage. But since I'm never in combat, I don't find them a gun I shoot very often.

Blind rage and internet cursing often makes the obvious invisible to those who spew rage.

When you post stuff like this, trashing what's probably the most popular rifle caliber in the last century, expect "negative" responses. Some will use a lot more words and perhaps be a little more "conventional" in expressing their distaste for your position.

Others will just get to the point and "tell it like they see it".

I will offer one suggestion. If you ever do go out and shoot .223 ammo again and have a leaf in front of the target cause the bullet to tumble, do yourself and the rest of us a great service. Take some @#$&$%# pictures and post them. One of the location of the "leaf", one of the hole, and another of the keyhole.
Otherwise just remember the words "Pictures or it didn't happen".

BTW, this is how the Internet is, especially when you find yourself among people who've "Been There, Done That".

FWIW, I hear people are a lot more polite over on the "Old Fart RV Forum".


The good news in your not liking or shooting your AR15's anymore is simple. MORE AMMO FOR THOSE OF US WHO LIKE THEM (and the .223/5.56mm round).

 

[Glock45]

I wouldn't say given up, just that we(American shooters) have a plethora of choices, which is a good thing!

Some people are perfectly content driving around in a Ford Taurus or Chevy Malibu - it's a tool which is easy to find and gets them to work, drops off kids to events, takes them on trips to go to the range, etc. (5.56, 7.62, 9mm)

Some people like to have something more exclusive - Corvette, Nissan 370Z, Ford Raptor truck, etc. Maybe the tool is more specialized, maybe it's braggin' rights. But the choice is there. These tools are fantastic in many realms other than being common. (6.8SPC, 10mm, 300BLK)

I, at this time in my life just stick with the common calibers as I have easier time finding that ammo. I've yet to begin reloading and am looking forward to starting. When I do begin reloading, i look very forward to driving the Corvette and getting a .260REM or other wind cutting caliber.

There's no wrong or right, or "am I weird" as the OP stated in his first post. There is just many choices, and that is fantastic in my opinion!

Shoot safely!

-G45

 

[garandman]

I will offer one suggestion. If you ever do go out and shoot .223 ammo again and have a leaf in front of the target cause the bullet to tumble, do yourself and the rest of us a great service. Take some @#$&$%# pictures and post them. One of the location of the "leaf", one of the hole, and another of the keyhole.
Otherwise just remember the words "Pictures or it didn't happen".

).

Honestly, I don't care whether you believed it happened, or not.

I don't care what anyone else shoots. I don't care to convince anyone of anything. I'm simply explaining my choices, and seeing if anyone else has come to similar conclusions.

And I have NO intention of tolerating rudeness, regardless of who a person is, where they've been, or what they've done.

 

[garandman]

"Combat effectiveness" is an irrelevant consideration for me cuz I'm never in combat. When making choices for what I want to shoot, I only care about factors that are relevant for ME.

 

[KUSA]

"Combat effectiveness" is an irrelevant consideration for me cuz I'm never in combat. When making choices for what I want to shoot, I only care about factors that are relevant for ME.

You may be in that situation one day. Be prepared.

 

[garandman]

You may be in that situation one day. Be prepared.

I am. This thread is about what I * choose * to shoot.

 

[KUSA]

I am. This thread is about what I * choose * to shoot.

So what do you choose to use in a shtf situation? Do you have a rifle to use in that role and if so what caliber?

 

[garandman]

So what do you choose to use in a shtf situation? Do you have a rifle to use in that role and if so what caliber?

AR / AK. And numerous designer fashion accessories to wear with them.

But this thread isn't about combat / shtf. Haven't I said this before?

 

[Cold_Bore_88]

I have not given up on it but it definitely is not the "best" caliber out there. I like the low recoil and the ease of finding ammo.

Availability and price aside, if I could pick any caliber for a semi auto, it would be the 6.8. I have a buddy in swat who uses a select fire LWRC 6.8 and he loves it.

I have a couple of other guys I know in the Marines and Army who don't like the 5.56 either. So your not the only one.

 

[garandman]

I have not given up on it but it definitely is not the "best" caliber out there. I like the low recoil and the ease of finding ammo.

Availability and price aside, if I could pick any caliber for a semi auto, it would be the 6.8. I have a buddy in swat who uses a select fire LWRC 6.8 and he loves it.

I have a couple of other guys I know in the Marines and Army who don't like the 5.56 either. So your not the only one.

I've often thought a 7.62 x 39 caliber AR would be the best compromise, Haven't shot 6.8 but have long been interested in it,

 

[Graham]

It's not about the caliber.

 

[Cold_Bore_88]

I've often thought a 7.62 x 39 caliber AR would be the best compromise, Haven't shot 6.8 but have long been interested in it,

Agreed. I like the 7.62X39 a lot. I am looking at an Arsenal SAM7 right now. But I am new to AKs and a lot of people are telling me they are over priced.

I recently purchased a Sig 716. Love having the harder hitting .308.

 

[leadbullet]

I did give up on the 223 after shooting a 204 Ruger, nuff said.
Cheers.

 

[garandman]

I did give up on the 223 after shooting a 204 Ruger, nuff said.
Cheers.

Different...

 

[Smith97z71]

Sadly, I haven't owned a .223 in about 13 years. Only one I ever had was a Savage 110. Still want to get one in an AR platform just for a cheaper training gun and to have fun with the platform. I have my Grendel for anything serious and will eventually have 6.8SPCII for that as well

 

[Loaded247]

Have a couple ARs and will keep them. If I need to reach out further than that I will drag out the 338 lapua or the Barrett 50....

 

[patrol120]

On the contrary, I have only grown more fond of the 223 as time passes. It is my go to hunting gun, whether deer, hogs, predators, or vermin. With the current cornucopia of projectiles available, it can do just about anything I need. Add to that the fact that its just plain cheap to shoot, and it becomes all that more useful to me.

By the way, I will go on record by saying I do not, for one second, believe that leaf caused keyhole theory.

 

[E. Bryant]

"Combat effectiveness" is an irrelevant consideration for me cuz I'm never in combat.

That's fine as a thread premise, but when you start a conversation about a military caliber, and you do in in a subforum that is primarily about military-pattern arms, it doesn't take a fuckin' rocket scientist to figure out where the conversation will head. Also keep in mind that someone else in this thread is just as guilty of using military decision-making as an appeal to authority:

Yer right.... the AR10 doesn't exist, and has never been deployed anywhere ever. Cuz the military sees no need for a bullet heavier than 77grains.

The existence of the AR10 is proof the MK12 isn't doing every job the military needs....

Oops.

When making choices for what I want to shoot, I only care about factors that are relevant for ME.

Too bad that this thread, this forum, and life in general are not just about YOU. You are entitled to your own opinion; if you can make an elegant enough argument in support of it, you just might find some others that agree with you. Lacking that, perhaps a good discussion will break out and with an open mind some learning may occur.

If you want to make statements about what is important to you without all the additional noise of other opinions, then forgo public discussion forums in favor of a blog. You won't get very many readers, but you'll avoid all the distraction of opposing viewpoints.

 

[garandman]

If you want to make statements about what is important to you without all the additional noise of other opinions, then forgo public discussion forums in favor of a blog. You won't get very many readers, but you'll avoid all the distraction of opposing viewpoints.

I didn't do that. I specifically HAVE engaged others opinions. Don't try to put words in my mouth.

All I said was "combat effectiveness" is not relevant for me when making choices how to spend my money, and time shooting. Arguing for 223 from a combat effectiveness argument is like me telling you to buy cowboy action guns and gear when you have no desire or intention to shoot cowboy action. (just as one example)

Its irrelevant. I'm never IN combat. SO what's effective for combat doesn't IN ANY WAY shape my choices. ANd people arguing FROM a combat effectiveness argument can expect me to be unpersuaded. In fact, they can expect exactly what I did do - politely asking this thread NOT be cluttered up with a gung-ho, hooah, and IRRELEVANT discussion of combat effectiveness. (If you'd enjoy YET ANOTHER one of those, please start your own thread, and have at it.)

That's a VERY simple concept. I'm SURE you can grasp it.

 

[Deadshot2]

I have not given up on it but it definitely is not the "best" caliber out there. I like the low recoil and the ease of finding ammo.

Availability and price aside, if I could pick any caliber for a semi auto, it would be the 6.8. I have a buddy in swat who uses a select fire LWRC 6.8 and he loves it.

Sometimes "Best" has to take a back seat to what's available in times of strife. I won't say one word about the 6.8 although I've very strongly considered building an upper in this caliber just to have one. That said, if one is building his shtf stash/cache/hoard then it might be best to consider those calibers that are readilly available and widely used in the military. With that in mind .223/5.56mm fits very nice. Right along with .308, 9mm, 40S&W, and even 45acp. While 7.62x39 may be, in some people's mind, superior, it remains a "foreign round" and supply will be dependent on what you hoard. When the day comes when we all have to scavenge, military stores won't have much AK food, just 5.56mm and 9mm for the most part.

FWIW, I prefer more of a Long Range caliber and weapon. If I can take only one rifle and one pistol with me it will be my Bolt Action .308 LR rifle and my 9mm handgun that holds 20 rounds. Everyone else is free to choose.

I have a couple of other guys I know in the Marines and Army who don't like the 5.56 either. So your not the only one.

When I served, back when they were taking our M-14's away from us and issuing XM16E1's. All kinds of names were given them, most commonly "Matell Gun". In my service days I never met anyone that liked what they were issued. Griping and complaining was a daily event.

What's kind of humerous is with all the hype on the 7.62x39 round, the Former Soviet Union Countries are equipping their forces with the AK74 and the 5.45x39 round. A slower, lighter bullet than the 5.56mm NATO. The Soviets started this change back in the late 70's and early 80's.

 

[BattleAxe]

Who here has given up.... ....on .223? ...Am I weird?

My response is not a commentary on you so try not to get offended, but if I ever reach that point where I feel .223 has lost its usefulness, practicality, or whatever...I'm going to take off my manpants, burn my mancard, then go skipping through the mall looking for a new Easter bonnet. My thoughts are based on a simple formula/checklist...

1. Cheap ammo that can shoot minute-of-man to 600 yards....check
2. Better ammo that can shoot sub minute to 600 yards....check
3. Reloads that can shoot 1/2 minute to 600 yards....check
4. Rifle looks cool next to you while playing naked call of duty...check
5. Good CQB round....check
6. Tacticool....check
7. Snipery....check
8. Hunt small to medium/large game....check
9. Hunt bad guys in Anywhere-Stan....check
10. Shoot shit just to watch it "splode". Particularly fun with squirrels....check
11. Chiks dig it....check
12. Liberals fear it....check
13. Did I mention naked call of duty?
14. I'm finding it to be the ultimate positional trainer for many of the above reasons.

If I ever reach that point, I'll also be tired of guns/shooting so please somebody kick my ass, steal my wallet, and call me skippy.
This list may not be all-inclusive

 

[garandman]

My response is not a commentary on you so try not to get offended, but if I ever reach that point where I feel .223 has lost its usefulness, practicality, or whatever...I'm going to take off my manpants, burn my mancard, then go skipping through the mall looking for a new Easter bonnet. My thoughts are based on a simple formula/checklist...

1. Cheap ammo that can shoot minute-of-man to 600 yards....check
2. Better ammo that can shoot sub minute to 600 yards....check
3. Reloads that can shoot 1/2 minute to 600 yards....check
4. Rifle looks cool next to you while playing naked call of duty...check
5. Good CQB round....check
6. Tacticool....check
7. Snipery....check
8. Hunt small to medium/large game....check
9. Hunt bad guys in Anywhere-Stan....check
10. Shoot shit just to watch it "splode". Particularly fun with squirrels....check
11. Chiks dig it....check
12. Liberals fear it....check
13. Did I mention naked call of duty?
14. I'm finding it to be the ultimate positional trainer for many of the above reasons.

If I ever reach that point, I'll also be tired of guns/shooting so please somebody kick my ass, steal my wallet, and call me skippy.
This list may not be all-inclusive

4, 6, 7, 11, 12, 13 : scare me a little bit, about you.

1-3 : I have other calibers that do all that better than 223.

5, 9 : I'm never IN battle - close quarters or otherwise. I'm not even sure I consistently spell "Afghanistan" correctly all the time.

8, 10 : I don't hunt, yet. When I do, it won't be for the purpose of watching animals explode. When I want watch things explode, I have larger calibers for that.

14 : I have my 22 rf AR15, which is an excellent trainer.

I don't tie my manhood to what I shoot. I won't judge you for doing so.

 

[BattleAxe]

4, 6, 7, 11, 12, 13 : scare me a little bit, about you.

So you ARE a liberal

I don't tie my manhood to what I shoot. I won't judge you for doing so.

I knew you'd be offended. So what if I like rubbing my hammer on it... don't be a freakin' meat gazer.

 

[garandman]

So you ARE a liberal

No, I just don't catalogue my delusions of grandeur on the internet for all to see. Or my preparations for the impending apocalypse.

My preps are my own - I don't do them to impress other people, and I don't go poking liberals in the eye with them. I'd prefer gun haters and girly men liberals be completely unaware of my preps, so they don't even know what to outlaw next.

If you want to inform liberals all about your preps, and give them a leg up as to what to outlaw by plastering it all over the webz.... I'd call that "unwise" but I guess I can't stop ya. (YOU playing COD naked with a gun by your side is EXACTLY what liberals point to, to try to paint me as mentally unstable, and therefore take my guns away. Thanx ALOT, pal... )

I knew you'd be offended.

I don't get "offended." Liberals get "offended." Getting "offended" is giving others power over yourself. I choose not to do that.

In other words, you posted a list of (1) goofy stuff, (2) irrelevant stuff, and (3) personal opinion with which I disagree. Then you tried to tie it to your manhood. Personally, my manhood was well established long before I bought my first AR15, and will continue in tact even if I decided to sell all of them.

And here's a just to show I'm not "offended."

 

[Deadshot2]

5, 9 : I'm never IN battle - close quarters or otherwise. I'm not even sure I consistently spell "Afghanistan" correctly all the time.

8, 10 : I don't hunt, yet. When I do, it won't be for the purpose of watching animals explode. When I want watch things explode, I have larger calibers for that.

Considering the things you don't do or haven't done I'm amazed at the amount of expertise you've gained on the .223 round.

Some people have actually used it to kill things (some of which were actually shooting back). What do they know when compared to all your "expertise"?

 

[garandman]

Considering the things you don't do or haven't done I'm amazed at the amount of expertise you've gained on the .223 round.

Some people have actually used it to kill things (some of which were actually shooting back). What do they know when compared to all your "expertise"?

Reminds me of that movie line by Tom Selleck in Quigley Down Under - "I said I don't have much use for it. I never said I don't know how to use it."

 

[BattleAxe]

Then you tried to tie it to your manhood.

I've never quite understood this "fall-back" position some present as their theory when engaged in topics concerning toys and other related man-topics. I don't know how you were raised but when I fell out of the womb in the middle of our trailer park I landed in the dirt, and I pretty much stayed there to this day. I liked playing in the dirt, dirt bikes, trucks, fast cars, hot chiks, and guns, etc. I liked tools and taking shit apart, and if it didn't come apart I sometimes liked to smash it with a brick just to see inside...all of this before I even knew what my dick was for beyond writing my name in the snow.

That said, there is something seriously wrong with this world when I have to explain or justify this behavior to...well...another guy, then have that "guy" tell me there's something inherently wrong with it to end an argument. Seriously dude...if this in fact is somehow "tied to my manhood", there is nothing more "womanly" on this earth than another man pointing this out.

So I have to ask..."Honey? Is that you? LOL

 

[garandman]

That said, there is something seriously wrong with this world when I have to explain or justify this behavior to...well...another guy, then have that "guy" tell me there's something inherently wrong with it to end an argument. Seriously dude...if this in fact is somehow "tied to my manhood", there is nothing more "womanly" on this earth than another man pointing this out.

I ..... have no idea what that even means...

You tied it to your manhood, not me. Wear it proudly, friend.

And I suspect there is more than A FEW guys you'd have to explain playing COD nekkid with the AR15 handy.... I don't even understand the desire to play COD period. I'd rather be pulling a real trigger, than pressing an "X" or "Y: button (or whatever it is)

 

[elfster1234]

Ok ok ok.... This thread is wayyyyyyy out of control.....

 

[Smcarroll]

I ..... have no idea what that even means...

You tied it to your manhood, not me. Wear it proudly, friend.

And I suspect there is more than A FEW guys you'd have to explain playing COD nekkid with the AR15 handy.... I don't even understand the desire to play COD period. I'd rather be pulling a real trigger, than pressing an "X" or "Y: button (or whatever it is)

What's wrong with playing video games naked in a room full of guns? No ar-15's here either, 30 caliber gets it for me.

 

[garandman]

What's wrong with playing video games naked in a room full of guns? No ar-15's here either, 30 caliber gets it for me.

It takes all kinds to make a world... but I'd prefer not to have any mental images of this. IF you do this in groups, PLEASE do NOT tell me.

That said, I'd prefer that in this thread we talk about the relative merits of the civilian use of the 223 round...

 

[BoilerUP]

Using (free) range pickup brass, I can reload Mk.262 clones for $0.26/round. Those loads give me MOA or better accuracy from an 18" 1:8 FrankenSPR and roughly 0.6MOA accuracy from my 22" 223AI, and provide consistent hits on 8" steel out to 650yd (the furthest I readily have available to shoot on).

No other chambering provides remotely as high of a cost-to-accuracy value...especially when poking holes in paper or shooting at ranges where the superior energy/ballistics of larger cartridges cannot be taken advantage of. Also, I have found the 223/223AI kills whitetail just as dead as my 260 Remington at the distances I am able to take shots at where I hunt.

That being said, this is the semi-auto subforum and I do shoot my 5.56 AR a fair bit less than I shoot my 223AI bolt gun...and I have pretty much given up on 55gr FMJs as they don't shoot worth a damn in either of my rifles.

 

[Drifter™]

On the contrary, I have only grown more fond of the 223 as time passes. It is my go to hunting gun, whether deer, hogs, predators, or vermin. With the current cornucopia of projectiles available, it can do just about anything I need. Add to that the fact that its just plain cheap to shoot, and it becomes all that more useful to me.

By the way, I will go on record by saying I do not, for one second, believe that leaf caused keyhole theory.

Well said. I agree on all counts.

 

[shoot4fun]

Read the entire thread. Interesting observations from both "real world" users and those of us who use our 223 semis for nothing more than downing an occasional 'yote or punching three gun targets.
My only complaint here is that the OP had to know he was starting a controversial topic and should have expected (maybe even desired) flammable input from the members here. BTW, did you go to ARFCOM and post the same there?
Now, as to your claim that a single leaf uspet your 223 bullet at no more distance than you state, you may feel that you saw indisputable evidence of such but unless it was done in lab type conditions and repeated multiple times you merely have what your mind tells you is a fact. How's that for nicely saying "I call BS"?

 

[garandman]

Now, as to your claim that a single leaf uspet your 223 bullet at no more distance than you state, you may feel that you saw indisputable evidence of such but unless it was done in lab type conditions and repeated multiple times you merely have what your mind tells you is a fact. How's that for nicely saying "I call BS"?

I really don't care.

I was there. You weren't

I saw it. You didn't.

My good friend was there to see it and confirmed my analysis. You weren't there and didn't see it.


I still think you are a fine person.

 

[garandman]

My only complaint here is that the OP had to know he was starting a controversial topic and should have expected (maybe even desired) flammable input from the members here. BTW, did you go to ARFCOM and post the same there?

I love controversy.

The ONLY part I've objected to is people saying I MUST like 223 because of its "combat effectiveness" despite my repeated statements that (1) I am never in combat, and (2) that when I go to the range for just a fun day of shooting , I * NEVER* have combat conditions / goals / purposes / training, etc in mind, and therefore "combat effectiveness" is irrelevant to me, and no reason to choose to bring my AR.

Yet, again and again, people "spam up" the discussion with "combat effectiveness."

 

[garandman]

So, to sum up thus far, people are claiming

(1) I MUST like and shoot the 223 a lot because of its "combat effectiveness" even tho I am never ever in combat, and am just going to the range for a fun day of shooting, and

(2) I am prohibited from disliking 223 despite what I and a third party both saw and experience because people who weren't there don't believe what I told them about what I and the third party saw and experienced.

I absolutely LOVE the internets.

 

[BoilerUP]

I haven't seen anybody say you MUST anything.

 

[E. Bryant]

My only complaint here is that the OP had to know he was starting a controversial topic and should have expected (maybe even desired) flammable input from the members here.

The OP has several threads that can best be described as the internet equivalent of the woman who wears skimpy clothes and then complains about attracting too many lingering stares.

 

[garandman]

The OP has several threads that can best be described as the internet equivalent of the woman who wears skimpy clothes and then complains about attracting too many lingering stares.

Actually my objections are more like wanting to shoot something other than 223 and people saying I should want to shoot 223. For reasons that have nothing to do with why I went to the range in the first place.

That, and telling me I didn't see what I saw, as if they actually saw what they admit they didn't see. Amazing.

 

[patrol120]

Actually my objections are more like wanting to shoot something other than 223 and people saying I should want to shoot 223. For reasons that have nothing to do with why I went to the range in the first place.

That, and telling me I didn't see what I saw, as if they actually saw what they admit they didn't see. Amazing.

Methinks you are seeing what you want to see.

No one here cares what you shoot, or what you want to shoot, only folks refuting the statement that the round is useless. Frankly, your posts infer that you feel we MUST not like the 223, because you don't. As for the leaf incident, persons who have even the slightest grasp of external ballistics don't need to witness it, as they understand that its not possible, regardless of what you think you saw.

In Law Enforcement, especially investigations, we must be careful to allow the evidence to identify the suspect, as opposed to making the suspect fit the evidence.