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Why not safetywire for muzzle devices ?
- Thread starter strikeeagle1
- Start date
It just isn't necessary is the problem, and begs the qustion of what requires lock/safety wire and what doesn't, should scope rings and mounts be wire locked too? Why not use castellated nuts and split/cotter pins instead?
A proper torque is still the primary force that is holding the fastners in place, the lockwire is just there incase the fastner does come loose and stops it from coming all the way out.
The difference being if your muzzle brake comes loose you just screw it back on and consider some using locktite, whereas a drain plug coming loose 30,000ft in the air, 5 hours over the ocean and you loose engine oil or some other important fluid, it's a vastly different situation.
It's not like every single fastner on an aircraft is locked, it's meant to be a backup for safety critical components.
Drain plugs, cable turnbuckles, flight controls, engine controls (and many other things) are pretty much all locked in some manner but most other parts/components aren't.
I've seen some engine fuel filter bowls don't have locked fastners, which if that came loose you'd have no more fuel pressure and no more fuel, but the chance of 6 properly installed fastners coming loose is unlikely, whereas the drain plug on the bottom is torqued. Many engine components arent locked either replying on a clamp of some design (that could be locked but isn't) or just proper torque on mounting bolts.
Last but not least is the safety issue, cut lockwire is sharp as hell if you've ever stabbed yourself with a piece of it you'd probably not want it anywhere in a firearm. You get a hole in your finger or thumb and it bleeds like crazy.
If muzzle brake locking were to become a big issue then a locking washer or tab washer would be fair easier to implement, retrofit, install and less likely to get blood all over your rilfe.
Not really any commotion among the people who have learned how torque and thread locker work.
And the reason aircraft fasteners are sometimes spec'd with wire is because it's sometimes impossible (or too heavy) to design the female thread large/strong enough to torque sufficiently to secure against vibration. Torque is always sufficient. . . if you can torque enough; sometimes on weight constrained components you can't.
You just drill one straight through the middle, duh….
Then you can be a guest on this guy’s YouTube!
GE90 mounting bolts aren't locked, its fair to say a GE90 is fairly heavy and produces a few vibrations.
Lockwire/safety is a safety not a subtitue for inability to torque something, I've never seen a component installed that needed lockwire to hold it in place. Self locking nuts are readily used and available if it's a problem.
When it come to attaching important things to aircraft not having a solid attachement is not really an option.
Saving an ounce of weight to risk loosing engine control, flight controls etc is not a tradeoff that even bears thinking about.
Even seemingly unimportant components you don't want to risk rattling around an engine/airframe and damaging goodness know what in the process.
Most shotguns today come equipped with screw in chokes. Many are just knurled, and are installed finger tight. The one's that come with a "wrench", (like Beretta), are nothing more than a thin, keyed blade that's used to just snug them beyond finger tight.
I've never had one come loose. And they're designed to be kept lubricated, for ease of changing. Like is required for a lot of sporting clays courses.
So I'm not seeing the reason for something like this. Especially if a crush washer is employed. Yeah, shotguns don't run at 60,000 PSI, but I've never had a flash hider or muzzle brake come loose either..... On any of my AR's.
As was mentioned, it's a solution for what is basically a non existent problem.
I've never had one come loose. And they're designed to be kept lubricated, for ease of changing. Like is required for a lot of sporting clays courses.
So I'm not seeing the reason for something like this. Especially if a crush washer is employed. Yeah, shotguns don't run at 60,000 PSI, but I've never had a flash hider or muzzle brake come loose either..... On any of my AR's.
As was mentioned, it's a solution for what is basically a non existent problem.
At a match I'll typically re tighten my choke between every stage, I'll usually be able to get a 1/4 turn every time. Everyone I've ever asked about it does the same. It's not a problem though, I consider it a feature not a bug because a choke that needs snugging is a choke that hasn't seized in the barrel.
most locktight products are to breakdown at just under than 350 degrees unless a high temp which I am guessing is only good to about 500 degrees.
How many hundreds of thousands of semi automatic and fully automatic weapons are in and have been in use in the US military? These weapons are exposed to extreme conditions and high rates of fire with little to no issues with muzzle devices coming loose. This is absolutely a solution for a problem that does not exist for anyone using proper common sense installation techniques.
I shot my choke downrange at an all shotgun match. Started doing the same ever since.
To suggest safety wire as a solution to a loosening muzzle device shows a misunderstanding of both the initial problem and a misunderstanding of what safety wire is used for.
The problem is loose muzzle devices, not muzzle devices flying off. Muzzle devices that work loose from lack of initial torque cause terrible precision issues without even being 1/16 of a turn loose. Often the device isn't even loose enough to be visibly rotated out of square with the naked eye, but if someone grabs it they'll discover it's not even hand right.
Safety wire is not designed to keep hardware tight. It is not capable of keeping hardware tight. I have installed safety wire on a fastener that was installed with 600 ft lb of torque. The safety wire doesn't have the tensile strength to actually keep the fastener tight. It just keeps the fastener from falling off the top of an oil derrick and crushing someone's face on the deck in the worst case scenario.
Safety wire is simply intended to keep hardware that does come loose from rotating enough to completely fall off.
There is no substitute for proper torque.
The problem is loose muzzle devices, not muzzle devices flying off. Muzzle devices that work loose from lack of initial torque cause terrible precision issues without even being 1/16 of a turn loose. Often the device isn't even loose enough to be visibly rotated out of square with the naked eye, but if someone grabs it they'll discover it's not even hand right.
Safety wire is not designed to keep hardware tight. It is not capable of keeping hardware tight. I have installed safety wire on a fastener that was installed with 600 ft lb of torque. The safety wire doesn't have the tensile strength to actually keep the fastener tight. It just keeps the fastener from falling off the top of an oil derrick and crushing someone's face on the deck in the worst case scenario.
Safety wire is simply intended to keep hardware that does come loose from rotating enough to completely fall off.
There is no substitute for proper torque.
This ^^^^^^^^
If you have ANY type of muzzle device that "comes loose", it is only because it wasn't installed properly in the first place.
You use 600mph tape to hold things together.
Wrap a rifle in that and it'll never explode.
I've not worked on any military aircraft or in GA so I fully expected things to be different in those fields.
I've spent most of my time working on newer mdoels of civilan aircraft (787s, 777s, and A320/321s, but have dabbled in 737s and 767s also.
As I said above pretty much the only things that are lock wired are things like drain plugs and flight controls, if you loose engine oil, hydraulic oil, fuel, or control of the aircraft then you are screwed, belt and braces kinda deal, everything else is just nuts and bolts.
All the engine componets I've ever replaced were just bolted on, all the clips holding wiring, fire wires, and piping on engines are just bolts/screws going into anchor nuts. Although Rolls Royce seems to enjoy putting backing nut in hard to reach places, ensuring you drop at least one of them.
The A320 and 777 are a dream to work on compared to older aircraft, no more having 10 different length screw per access panel, and are a bit newer that they went away from lockwire/split pins (although Airbus likes usign split pins). The 787 doesn't have much in the way of lockwire either but has a bunch of other BS that makes is a real bastard to work on.
I could be mis-remembering but most of the time I need lock wire is for component servicing (starters, IDGs, fuel/oil filters) otherwise it's self locking nuts or just a straight thread into a component.
My son shoots a lot of sporting clays. He twists on the choke tubes every station. I asked him once if he needed a wrench to tighten them down. He said he was breaking them free and retightening to insure they didn’t get stuck. This, on a gun that never gets the chokes removed except for cleaning- which is a rare event…
I was thinking you could also wrap it around many many times, make it stronger, like an Indian Enfield. Even more betterer.
Just buy brakes made out of soft stainless steel. Quickly torque it down to encourage thread Galling. Once the threads are buggered up, it will never come off without divine intervention 
(This is humor, and please don't confuse it with actual advice).
(This is humor, and please don't confuse it with actual advice).
All good, there has been a misunderstanding regarding lock wiring critical components and self locking fastners (nyloc / metal loc etc) on my part or how I read it. Don't disagree with anything you've said....
Cheers
Pete
Because it's not an airplane, and no one wants to drill a hole in the barrel to secure it as it would make a weak spot in the barrel meaning the hole for the safety wire would be to deep in the barrel that there would be no tolerance left.
