Why we can't have nice things,

[Rob01]

Oh I do like the competitive aspect. In it for the fun doesn't mean I dont care about the placement or I'm not competitive. I'm not very good, but I love the competitive aspect of it. I make it to about 4 or 5 national matches a year, and went to the 2018 NRL Championship and the 2019 PRS Finale. Had a ball at both of them. Emphasis on,.... I had a ball... along with nearly everyone else there.

These events are fun. And yes. The Match Directors put them on. Im an MD myself. And I see all these grandiose ideas being tossed around here about "giving back to the sport" and "supporting the shooter", but from where I'm sitting and what I've seen, I think both our leagues do these things. Mostly I see a lot of rancor directed at Shannon and bunches of statements as to what a terrible guy he is. But all this stuff about how terrible the PRS is, I simply don't agree with. All these things the league could and should be doing, for the most part, they already do. They provide set rules and guidelines, and a ton of other support role activities too numerous to list. And quite frankly, for the last 3 years, anytime ive had an issue, Shannon or Julie has been a phone call or text away, and they got right on it and helped.

I was the MD for the Rocky Mountain Region Club Series Championship last August. Even though we were the first championship event of the season, they were waiting for me to send the Saturday afternoon match scores so they could tally up the Regional standings for me. They were on the phone with me helping me get it right.. they were literally hanging out that afternoon waiting for my call just so they could help.. They were wonderful. To me, a $40 membership for score tracking and a slough of Regional Championship trophies and some pretty useful vendor discounts is money well spent. Not to mention a t-shirt

I just don't see it fellas. I do agree with some of the things said. But not every organization is going to be everything to everyone. A lot of the things being said here as to what they should or could be, just isn't accurate. I think both leagues have done a great job with what they have.

When did you start shooting the sport?

 

[Lowlight]

Giving back to the sport, like no toilet paper in the Finale shitters, when asked Shannon turned around and walked away the MD told the competitor to take it out of the other one.

Giving back to the shooter means supporting the shooter on the ground, Welcome committees, walk throughs for new shooters, educational videos demonstrating best practices for new competitors

Yes we have managed to have FUN doing as little as possible because we are out shooting. We can find an empty field, put a bunch of random steel and shoot it in a certain way to rank people, but that is not what we are talking about.

If you claim to be the closest thing to a Professional Series, You call each other PROS but you can't say up front whether the shooters at your Finale have legal rifles under your own rules, to the point that 3 days later you determine that the winner was illegal, and the Huge Corporate Sponsored Shooter who came in second with the exact same illegal rifle is awarded the win.

It's easy to stand at 10,000 ft and say, its looks like a TON OF FUN

it's another thing to have a Series, like the PRS contact my Moderator, who just happens to be hosting a new Rimfire series and tell him that you have great plans for them, one stipulation, the Rimfire Director who just happens to be a Moderator needs to go on Sniper's Hide and "EDIT" the Finale thread ... because Shannon doesn't like it.

That was in December ... fuck you 10,000 ft assholes who want to sweep shit under the rug, clearly there is more than enough evidence a change is necessary for future success.

 

[Rob01]

Nobody

Most of the rest of the world doesn't enjoy our comparatively unlimited right to own and use firearms. They almost all have to ask permission and justify their request to their local or national government before being granted the limited privilege.

In almost all of those countries, national legislation provides that in order to justify the ownership of firearms for sporting use, the applicant must belong to a government-recognized sport shooting federation. Not all sport shooting federations are represented in the Olympics.

In most cases government will only recognize a national shooting sport federation if it's associated with an international federation regulating the same shooting sport.

That is why IPSC has such an international reach even though practical pistol shooting isn't and will never be an Olympic sport. That's also why IDPA (the pistol sport analog to PRS, a private for profit business) barely has any traction outside the US.

So while we may not give a fuck about an international precision rifle federation and may not need it, a lot of people around the world do.

And having USPSA being the United States affiliate of IPSC actually gives us who participate in that sport benefits that would not exist if we were some stand alone organization limited to the US. While those benefits may be minor for us, they literally mean the difference between owning a pistol at all or not for lots of other shooters around the world.

As for standardization, there's a shit load about any shooting sport that can be and should be standardized without forcing competitors into standardized courses of fire.

Guess you missed my last post:

"And I want to clarify that I am not against the international shooters as it may have seemed. I feel for you guys and I think you should have some sort of international league so you can keep your rifles but speaking for the US itself there really isn't a need here although it wouldn't hurt as someone mentioned making rifles used in sports."

So they want to do something like that then have at it. I will support them having it. Just don't come here and make it so I have to join something like the PRS to shoot matches like some of these sports do.

 

[Birddog6424]

When did you start shooting the sport?

I started shooting local matches around 2012. Shot a few matches out of state in that time.. Did that for a few years, it was great fun learning the game with an 18" 308 gas gun.. I think 2015 was the first time I went to a 2 day match. I became a MD for our local club in 2016.

 

[Rob01]

I started shooting local matches around 2012. Shot a few matches out of state in that time.. Did that for a few years, it was great fun learning the game with an 18" 308 gas gun.. I think 2015 was the first time I went to a 2 day match. I became a MD for our local club in 2016.

Thanks. Was just wondering if you had shot any matches pre PRS to know the difference.

 

[LawnMM]

Keep in mind with the whole raffle/gambling thing a raffle charges a fee for the tickets.

If you get the tickets for free you aren't investing any money and there's no game of chance. It's just free shit. Your shooter number was picked, new scope, happy day!

 

[Lowlight]

Apologist,

I can still see what you wrote,

You are weak and simple minded, Cuz that is how I see it

 

[Longshot79]

We reduced PRS sanctioned matches at the Aurora Sportsman's Club in 2021 over this power struggle. Shannon is once again trying to sneak in a tax on shooters. $3 per shooter regardless if they are PRS member or not to upload scores to the website. Non members pay the fee but still can't see their score online. (Ex: 50 shooters = $150 fee to upload scores to the PRS website) Our club sees less than 25% PRS shooters at our matches but Shannon would not budge on the fee, reducing it to only PRS members, so in order to reduce our expense exposure we are only running 1 match this year.

Most MDs/clubs are using practiscore to manage events and track scores and that platform is free. ASC uses it for all of our events. We do digital registration, waivers, collect match fees, communicate with shooters. The platform is ideal and free. The only thing it doesn't do is compare scores across multiple matches and regions. But that can be solved with a data harvester or a conversation with practiscore about creating groups. My point is MDs have been grassrooting score tracking methods for years. Most of us do it for free. Coordinating and tracking scores between multiple ranges isn't that complicated. But Shannon seams to think its the most valuable part of the PRS.

 

[Adam B]

But Shannon seams to think HE it the most valuable part of the PRS.

fixed it for you

 

[Lowlight]

The improvements to Practiscore are pretty good,

I remember the sit down at Shot with them, at first it was a bit like pulling teeth, so I was not a big fan. Now it's a much better system and should be leverage to do a lot of the work we are talking about.

These small infrastructure things are what I am talking about, you first build these features and programs in place, you don't charge for it in the beginning until it is flushed out better. When you have a universal APP every MD and Competitor can download you can charge them money. He is charging you to Beta test another companies' product.

But Practiscore today is one of the key functions to leverage and improve the experience

If Practiscore said, hey PRS its gonna be $XXXXX for the App, or the scoring system, he can say, great that is perfect, and the PRS use the money they collect to employ it, or they say, no that is too expensive for the series to foot, how about partnering with the biggest Facility to share costs?

Free app though isn't it ? maybe there is a hidden fee, or they added fees since last I looked

 

[Adam B]

I have used Practiscore in USPSA for several years, if your club is set up for it, it really makes registration and the matching run so much smoother.

it is a free app

 

[MarcusOlsson]

Just to be clear, the IPRF is not about creating an international series. It's about getting a governing body for each nation to fall back on when applying for acceptance within each nations federation and being able to obtain rifles. And also help nations get going

Each nation decided how and who they send to the world champs.

 

[Lowlight]

Nobody is saying don't compete,

all people are saying is, this is broken here how we currently do it, wasted money, contrived stages, poor infrastructure and processes in place to move new shooters through the ranks, etc...

You can still show up at almost any match as individual and shoot, that has never changed, what we are saying is don't support a system that is really not supporting you.

It's still vote with your wallet, shoot what you like, just don't play in the politics or games of this scam.

We have more matches that ever, some have done very well, others have struggled, great, natural progress, so now that have an idea of what and what not to do, fix it. Reset the system while it is still small, still grassroots and clean it up.

Let match directors host multiple events in a single month, that support other series without being attacked. Better yet, just let every match submit scores as necessary. Open the door all the way.

Map out a feeder system using the local matches. We have more local matches than ever before, let's organize it better so people can visualize the map and the direction one should travel as they move from local to regional to national.

All the International Stuff did was open people's eyes to what a few of us have been saying. This system is broken and not working for you as might think. read the international response, that is the center of this discussion, the US Infighting is hurting the community across the world as a whole. The US problem are spilling out onto the world stage. They said it...

So what I am saying is, let's fix it, and is all sides cannot agree, the standout can go it alone, the rest will work together to improve things on every level.

No one group as license over Precision Rifle Shooting, no one group should be able to say, If you host for you, you cannot host for anyone else, these agreements are bullshit. (they kinda break federal law, but whatever)

Open the doors, let every match have shooters from anywhere and if they want to track their points, give the MD the ability to do so openly. Not so hard really

Stop the suppression by trying to influence where people in order to put your competitors down. I read on FB that Shannon is running as business, so as a business he has no need to play fair with anyone. Okay, if those are the rules, just make sure we all know so we can act accordingly. If business in this community means we can do whatever we want, the gentleman's agreements we operated under are out, cool, just so we know, gloves are off.

I fail to see why asking people to right a ship, many feel is off course as being a bad thing.

 

[LawnMM]

I fail to see why asking people to right a ship, many feel is off course as being a bad thing.

Because it's not, unless it threatens the mold that's currently being used to enrich a 'business owner'

 

[brianf]

Frank your wasting your bandwidth...

your current audience either

doesn’t care enough
Or
Is unwilling to put the effort in

it’s the same with all middle management...they don’t want to put their name to it but they want to put in their 2 cents.

 

[kriller134]

That is my understanding as well, but to see significant prize tables you pretty much have to go to one of the national championships.

I'm pretty sure there are no prize tables at USPSA state and area championships. I will let you know later on in the year because after a few years I've decided to go to my state and area championships.

And I didn't even need an invite...…..

There are huge prize tables at area 2. Broken down by division and class.

 

[JB.IC]

Along with what should grow it would also be helpful to understand why it should grow. Growth isn’t always beneficial. In this case, what purpose does the growth serve? Is it something beyond simply generating more match fees and custom action orders?

Im fairly certain it’s purely to drive more sales. But I’ve yet to see evidence that suggest otherwise. It’s all hot air with no substance of an actual explanation

 

[sstacllc]

Frank your wasting your bandwidth...

your current audience either

doesn’t care enough
Or
Is unwilling to put the effort in

it’s the same with all middle management...they don’t want to put their name to it but they want to put in their 2 cents.

There is a lot of risk in sticking out your neck for sure. I was vigorously thrown under the bus in that email for being part of the IPRF

 

[Lowlight]

It's always a risk when I speak up,

The PRS and Shannon specifically has stated, He demands Loyalty, so knowing all the players first hand it's not hard to mobilize a campaign against me. As Scott noted, that email was not meant for the public but it started out first paragraph attacking Scott.

The Jersey letter, as even referenced here, they are still mad at me over that, and honestly I had no dog in the fight. They just know it was a pet peeve, so much so when people started grumbling at RO when the incident was happening in real time. Gardner told me, he said to Sikes, wait til Galli hears this ... they know.

I have been attacked, I know it, my reputation is not what it was the moment I spoke up about the PRS. I would wager 99% of those who popped into the community in the last 6 years only knows me for my dislike for match shooters. That in itself is a complete twist, they spun it to frame me as some Troll, which is fine. I can take it otherwise I would have not posted this.

Because I am BOLDER than most, that real hate they have is in the fact I have done more than they have, and my size says I should have never done any of it. What people don't realize is, I hear all of it. Even in their cliques I have such a long history here, there is always one person in that group who will tell me. People talk, I hear about the coordination to suppress things I am doing. Hell they had people rewrite my history who are younger than my daughter.

I honestly think it will change things and I will tell you how,

1. It open eyes, so those thinking about it, can think again.
2. it shows there are options and people are open to them
3. It does correct course in small batches,

If you take this post as one incident, it could be considered a waste of bandwidth, but when you look at the last two podcasts, the conversations about competitions with Scott, Phil, and Pete, people would realize there are changes taking place.

Maybe you didn't know there are is a WyPR Series now, that is working with a Montana Series, as well you have a CA series, the Best of West, you have the Border Wars, these are all small regionals that are cropping up.

If people understand the History of the sport, they can better steer it in the right direction. This was started a practical sport, working rifles, running and gunning. Now we have Barricade Benchrest, the practical side of things have been replaced by bench rest style execution. Left alone, I honestly believe we'll see air actuators, the goal is moving towards completely removing the shooter in everything but pointing the rifle at the target. Everything is being driven towards something else.

The calls for a Summit are being answered, people agree. Let's fix it while we can. Nobody is saying eliminate it, we are saying reset it back to something more practical, more free and open, and less driven by Cliques.

Segregation within the group is what pushes the divide between the groups.

We should have these uncomfortable conservations, we are small enough, we are agile enough if we want to be.

 

[308pirate]

Just don't come here and make it so I have to join something like the PRS to shoot matches like some of these sports do.

You do realize that it's possible to shoot a lifetime of USPSA matches and never join USPSA (which is IPSC in the USA).

Right?

There's no reason why your world has to be any different than that.

As a matter of fact, IPSC began in 1975 because they practical pistol world was going through this exact same organizational mess back then. They even had a high level meeting to set the course of the future, almost like what Frank's talking about doing. It was called the Columbia Conference.

There's a shitload of parallels and lessons to be learned if only one would look with an open mind.

That's all I will say about that.

 

[JeffLebowski]

it's another thing to have a Series, like the PRS contact my Moderator, who just happens to be hosting a new Rimfire series and tell him that you have great plans for them, one stipulation, the Rimfire Director who just happens to be a Moderator needs to go on Sniper's Hide and "EDIT" the Finale thread ... because Shannon doesn't like it.

That was in December ... fuck you 10,000 ft assholes who want to sweep shit under the rug, clearly there is more than enough evidence a change is necessary for future success.

Christ. Disgusting.

 

[Downtown]

"This was started a practical sport, working rifles, running and gunning"
This is exactly right. At the beginning, this was like the other action sports, USPSA & 3Gun, just with precision rifles. That's why I believe the IPSC model and analogy is a good one.

 

[Lowlight]

I am in favor of looking at all of them and picking and choosing the best elements from any sport

Why I liked the Archery stuff I saw, the car stuff, the Chess Classifications

The histories are out there, while not everything is a perfect fit, you can adjust and adapt

I am all in favor of helping to put this to bed, create a system more balanced for the entire community, with a set of standards that are simple and easy to understand. I don't want to keep going down the path of an engineering race, what guys are doing is not shooting, it's pointing a Benchrest rifle at target and tapping the trigger.

My mind is open and I think others are as well

 

[Downtown]

I also see that IDPA and PRS are apt analogies. Many of these same issues are similar to issues at the beginning of IDPA. I often felt Wilson and Hackathorn saw it as a business, unlike IPSC.

 

[Lowlight]

I honestly think a Summit, where everyone sat down, looked at the big picture, looked at what worked and what caused the issues and can solve a lot of this high level stuff.

it would put the entire PR community on a similar page, even if there was minor differences, we can all frame the conversation so they are addressed or ignored because they don't matter.

We can put each party in a room, sort out the old wounds, patch everyone up, and drive on down the road.

Our Appalachian

 

[Lowlight]

My wonder, or in this case, feeling very Demolition Man, my boggle is,

if so many people, "just want to shoot" shouldn't there be pressure to fix this from all sides?

It's not gonna end, it will only get worse, the tits for tats will continue, the petty sniping from around corners nobody sees coming, that stuff is the real driver of the problems.

Which is why I say we settle it, each group has their cliques inside that push against the others. Fixing it should be a priority for everyone involved

 

[Rob01]

You do realize that it's possible to shoot a lifetime of USPSA matches and never join USPSA (which is IPSC in the USA).

Right?

There's no reason why your world has to be any different than that.

As a matter of fact, IPSC began in 1975 because they practical pistol world was going through this exact same organizational mess back then. They even had a high level meeting to set the course of the future, almost like what Frank's talking about doing. It was called the Columbia Conference.

There's a shitload of parallels and lessons to be learned if only one would look with an open mind.

That's all I will say about that.

I keep hearing that but every USPSA match I went to said you could shoot one and then had to join. So somewhere there is a disconnect.

 

[Adam B]

I also see that IDPA and PRS are apt analogies. Many of these same issues are similar to issues at the beginning of IDPA. I often felt Wilson and Hackathorn saw it as a business, unlike IPSC.

Those little bitches started idpa because they didn’t like the gaming or equipment race ipsc /uspsa was turning into. In the end it is a just a game.

 

[Adam B]

You have to become a member of uspsa to shoot a state, area or higher level match.

 

[308pirate]

I keep hearing that but every USPSA match I went to said you could shoot one and then had to join. So somewhere there is a disconnect.

I'm a USPSA-trained and certified Range Officer. If someone told you that about USPSA, you were told wrong.

Or you may be thinking of IDPA (a for profit business) which does require people to join after the third match.

You do have to be a member of USPSA (25 bucks if you opt out of the useless magazine) to shoot level 2 (state) and 3 (area) matches and nationals.

So YOU get to decide your level of involvement and expense.

 

[JustSendit]

I admit prs is stupid but I shot it cause it’s the only show in town. Also anyone who defends the organization is suspect. I have a decent time doing it but there’s a lot of blowhards who love it.

 

[Rob01]

I'm a USPSA-trained and certified Range Officer. If someone told you that about USPSA, you were told wrong.

Or you may be thinking of IDPA (a for profit business) which does require people to join after the third match.

You do have to be a member of USPSA (25 bucks if you opt out of the useless magazine) to shoot level 2 (state) and 3 (area) matches and nationals.

So YOU get to decide your level of involvement and expense.

Must have been something in those New England states wanting money but that’s what they said even for the local matches. Not confusing with IDPA as I started shooting that in the 90’s.

But again if you make PRS like that you would have to be a member to shoot two day matches and even some regional. Don’t need anyone keeping track of my score so no need to join and be forced to pay a membership for something that was formerly free.

 

[JMGlasgow]

My first exposure to precision rifle shooting was when I found Snipershide Cup videos on YouTube. These were the OG ones at Rifles Only and I was instantly hooked. To this day I've wanted to shoot a match like that but I've never found one even remotely similar.

The Cup at Rifles Only was a bucket list match for me, and it's too bad I'll probably never shoot there.

The contrived prop stages and unrealistic par times have really reduced my interest in the sport. There are also certain well known individuals who have soured my interest as well with their bullshit alpha douchebag attitude.

 

[Midpack]

My first exposure to precision rifle shooting was when I found Snipershide Cup videos on YouTube. These were the OG ones at Rifles Only and I was instantly hooked. To this day I've wanted to shoot a match like that but I've never found one even remotely similar.

The Cup at Rifles Only was a bucket list match for me, and it's too bad I'll probably never shoot there.

The contrived prop stages and unrealistic par times have really reduced my interest in the sport. There are also certain well known individuals who have soured my interest as well with their bullshit alpha douchebag attitude.

While not the same as RO being in wy there are a ton more field course matches like rtc abs the new wypr ect that should be more appealing than the same old shit of a typical prs match

 

[308pirate]

But again if you make PRS like that you would have to be a member to shoot two day matches and even some regional. Don’t need anyone keeping track of my score so no need to join and be forced to pay a membership for something that was formerly free.

At some point it stops being about what's convenient for one individual and starts being about what is best fo the sport and its participants as a whole.

 

[JMGlasgow]

I'm good friends with the guys that developed the WYCO PRL, and do intend to shoot the 4 venue minimum for points.

Where is the RTC match?

 

[sstacllc]

It's always a risk when I speak up,

The PRS and Shannon specifically has stated, He demands Loyalty, so knowing all the players first hand it's not hard to mobilize a campaign against me. As Scott noted, that email was not meant for the public but it started out first paragraph attacking Scott.

The Jersey letter, as even referenced here, they are still mad at me over that, and honestly I had no dog in the fight. They just know it was a pet peeve, so much so when people started grumbling at RO when the incident was happening in real time. Gardner told me, he said to Sikes, wait til Galli hears this ... they know.

I have been attacked, I know it, my reputation is not what it was the moment I spoke up about the PRS. I would wager 99% of those who popped into the community in the last 6 years only knows me for my dislike for match shooters. That in itself is a complete twist, they spun it to frame me as some Troll, which is fine. I can take it otherwise I would have not posted this.

Because I am BOLDER than most, that real hate they have is in the fact I have done more than they have, and my size says I should have never done any of it. What people don't realize is, I hear all of it. Even in their cliques I have such a long history here, there is always one person in that group who will tell me. People talk, I hear about the coordination to suppress things I am doing. Hell they had people rewrite my history who are younger than my daughter.

I honestly think it will change things and I will tell you how,

1. It open eyes, so those thinking about it, can think again.
2. it shows there are options and people are open to them
3. It does correct course in small batches,

If you take this post as one incident, it could be considered a waste of bandwidth, but when you look at the last two podcasts, the conversations about competitions with Scott, Phil, and Pete, people would realize there are changes taking place.

Maybe you didn't know there are is a WyPR Series now, that is working with a Montana Series, as well you have a CA series, the Best of West, you have the Border Wars, these are all small regionals that are cropping up.

If people understand the History of the sport, they can better steer it in the right direction. This was started a practical sport, working rifles, running and gunning. Now we have Barricade Benchrest, the practical side of things have been replaced by bench rest style execution. Left alone, I honestly believe we'll see air actuators, the goal is moving towards completely removing the shooter in everything but pointing the rifle at the target. Everything is being driven towards something else.

The calls for a Summit are being answered, people agree. Let's fix it while we can. Nobody is saying eliminate it, we are saying reset it back to something more practical, more free and open, and less driven by Cliques.

Segregation within the group is what pushes the divide between the groups.

We should have these uncomfortable conservations, we are small enough, we are agile enough if we want to be.

Yes it is time to have a summit. I'll be interested to see who shows up.

 

[Rob01]

At some point it stops being about what's convenient for one individual and starts being about what is best fo the sport and its participants as a whole.

That you think it’s only me is showing part of the problem. It’s not only me. But the collective being more important than the individual sounds familiar.

 

[308pirate]

But the collective being more important than the individual sounds familiar.

You live in a civilized society. The concept I'm referring to should not be news to you.

But nice try at a strawman argument.

 

[Rob01]

You live in a civilized society. The concept I'm referring to should not be news to you.

But nice try at a strawman argument.

Again the PRS does nothing but keep track of scores and have a finale. Why would I want to be a member? What are they offering to me to get my hard earned money? Any business needs to have something for their customers. They came in and tried to make themselves important well before the present day admin there. They aren’t but they have brain washed plenty to think if they didn’t exist this sport wouldn’t either. Keep drinking that kool aid. LOL

 

[308pirate]

Again the PRS does nothing but keep track of scores and have a finale. Why would I want to be a member? What are they offering to me to get my hard earned money? Any business needs to have something for their customers. They came in and tried to make themselves important well before the present day admin there. They aren’t but they have brain washed plenty to think if they didn’t exist this sport wouldn’t either. Keep drinking that kool aid. LOL

I don't give one shit about PRS as an organization.

I'm thinking of this at a level that is far above where you're thinking. So is apparently the owner of this forum, which I commend for taking a holistic view of things.

If one day an organization emerges that will give precision rifle shooting the structure that it needs to have to become a legitimate sport, you'll have the option to not join in and play some outlaw version somewhere.

Just like 3 gun

 

[Rob01]

Yup you want to make it international. Great. Again what will that offer us shooters here in the US? And it will grow the sport and make it huge is the typical BS answer. Sorry if asking the question that no one wants to honestly answer.

And nice to push out people who have been doing the sport two decades to make it new and big. Join or go away. Good attitude. LOL

ETA Actually don’t bother trying to answer. I think I will unfollow this thread and let you masters of the universe plot out the rest of my matches. LOL

 

[mkollman74]

Guys this whole thing is about giving the international guys opportunities. Also I agree that more matches in the US does not equal growth.

Scott, I am with ya on that. My questions about growth were focused on the US

I certainly don't see the current ownership of the NRL or the PRS giving up what they have to morph into some new and improved version of themselves where everything is champagne and butterflies.

See, here's the thing... PRS or NRL don't actually control anything, so they don't need to "give up" anything for the sport to change. This sport is about match directors and shooters. If/when either walk away, what PRS controls will be obvious to all. Its simple, if you like the way things are, that's great - keep shooting and paying your membership fees. No harm, no foul. Others either will or won't vote with their checkbooks. The market will decide if this is all just chest thumping or a real disconnect...

 

[hic28]

Where is the RTC match?

Riflemans team challenge

mainly Washington/Idaho/montana

arguably some of the most fun matches both from a shooting point of view and cultural

 

[JMGlasgow]

I meant in Wyoming

 

[Middle Man]

Just to clean up 5 pages....Three overarching concepts in this discussion:

1- all outlaw, all the time (old school matches)

2- for profit business, PRS, which no one seems to really care for

3- Frank’s suggestion to hold a summit that would lead (ideally) to the creation of “sporting federation” for the benefit of the participants, with standards and rules we all may rely on as participants.

If and when a sporting federation is created; outlaw matches continue as in the past, and for profit match businesses continue....both as the market decides.

I’d like to read more big thoughts about a sporting federation....

 

[Kahntrol]

I'm not sure how this still holds, but one of the early drivers of entry fees going up, was the "donate stuff for the table and we'll give you free shooter slots" practice. When an org, or the match director, gives away a bunch of entries for prize table swag, it eats into the operational funds, and those who don't "shoot for x companies" are forced to pay higher entry costs, to balance the p/l statement. There are a few MDs who don't do this, but many that do.

 

[sstacllc]

Just to clean up 5 pages....Three overarching concepts in this discussion:

1- all outlaw, all the time (old school matches)

2- for profit business, PRS, which no one seems to really care for

3- Frank’s suggestion to hold a summit that would lead (ideally) to the creation of “sporting federation” for the benefit of the participants, with standards and rules we all may rely on as participants.

If and when a sporting federation is created; outlaw matches continue as in the past, and for profit match businesses continue....both as the market decides.

I’d like to read more big thoughts about a sporting federation....

Sporting Federation is already created and why the hate mail from the PRS

 

[HighCountryPrecision]

I was at that particular match and witnessed some of the most selfless and generous acts from people and companies. Regina M gave her table walk to a new lady shooter, and I think another company or two basically put a whole rifle together for her.
The AI rifle deal was something that made me loyal to Mile High as well, how awesome was that? How many others probably felt the same way? That was a hero move I'd say.

Every year they do that. When I got into shooting I received a rifle from them in the same fashion. When I decided to put on the this match it only made sense to have Mile High be the title sponsor. Great company!

 

[mahlv]

Every year they do that. When I got into shooting I received a rifle from them in the same fashion. When I decided to put on the this match it only made sense to have Mile High be the title sponsor. Great company!

You do an excellent job with your matches, definitely one of the matches I guage the others on.