Wow I wasn’t sure if I was missing something as a guy who just started getting into Pr shooting these last 2 years. Adding weights to already pretty heavy rifles made me think are they just trying to engineer portable bench rest rifles aka take the shooter equation out of it. One day the new and improved gear cycle will burst and maybe the focus will be back where it sounds like it should be.
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Why we can't have nice things,
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Yes, in addition to MIle High, we had several other companies contribute to the prize table with full custom built rifles. Many sponsors get little or no recognition for the amount of support they offer to these matches.
For sure, but the gesture of rewarding a guy in the lower 2/3 or 1/2 of the field with a rifle such as that speaks volumes. I haven't seen that anywhere else, not that I'm a world traveler or anything but I'm betting it's rare
Scott, I'm hoping you're one of the guys who shows up. We need good representation from people like you and Frank who will take this sport back to its original roots, where the words "Precision" and "Practical" actually stood for something, unlike today where it's just words that fill a void without meaning.
All I know is not another dollar of my money will go towards the PRS. I lost a nice local series in my area all because shannon couldn't stand it got more local attention than his prs and pressured the MDs. Until he is out of the picture I'll forever be an opponent of the PRS. I blame the MDs almost as much for caving. This is aside from the BS i had to deal with as an RO when him and his trailer of assholes came for a match.
I miss the days when you had to actually solve a stage or use a little more brain power on the target package instead of 10-12rds 1 or 5 positions and obstacles with given heights.
I'm really hoping this international group and summit stuff will either be the end of shannon or the prs and make way for something with better intentions.
I miss the days when you had to actually solve a stage or use a little more brain power on the target package instead of 10-12rds 1 or 5 positions and obstacles with given heights.
I'm really hoping this international group and summit stuff will either be the end of shannon or the prs and make way for something with better intentions.
State>regional>national. This is the way you build an organization. Not from the top down, from the bottom up. Synthesize your rules the same way. Agree on what they are between the states and regions. Incorporate that with a national imprimatur. Put on your big boy pants and be ready to give up your personal sine qua non for the good of the sport. I am so tired of the top down political laden garbage. It's why I don't get involved. It's a bunch of man-babies with personal agendas who forget that people on a state/local get involved for the love of it, not anything else.
I just wish we could go back to the late 90s and early 2000s
we just showed up to a place, shot a completely different match than the last one with what we had, made friends, met new ones and went home!
we just showed up to a place, shot a completely different match than the last one with what we had, made friends, met new ones and went home!
This may have already been stated and I apologize if this a repeat.
Who does Shannon think he is questioning someone else’s business model? He has no business asking about a 5 year plan or anything else.
I am new to the competition shooting world and haven’t even had an opportunity to go watch a match. I can tell you that I will not be attending any PRS events. Shannon needs to spend sometime humbling himself.
Who does Shannon think he is questioning someone else’s business model? He has no business asking about a 5 year plan or anything else.
I am new to the competition shooting world and haven’t even had an opportunity to go watch a match. I can tell you that I will not be attending any PRS events. Shannon needs to spend sometime humbling himself.
As has been stated several times in this thread already, you can shoot as many regular season PRS matches (regional, pro-series, and rimfire) as you'd like without purchasing a PRS membership.
You'll still be supporting the venue and match director, and will still have your score posted on Practiscore. As a non-member, you just won't have a "shooter profile" on the PRS website tracking your scores, and probably won't be able to shoot a finale match. But you also won't be paying money to an organization you prefer not to support.
Not wanting to join the PRS doesn't necessarily mean you have to boycott matches.
Kinda the beauty of the deal for prs/nrl in a way. The sentiment of boycotting one or the other really hurts the MD's more than the prs/nrl, so why should they (prs/nrl) give a shit as long as the dough keeps coming in? I've experienced great matches and pyramid scheme type ran rip off matches, all with no correlation to affiliations with either league. I'm a type of consumer/customer that remembers the sting of the bullshit when an MD changes the scoring because enough people cried cuz they couldn't spin the spinner, or they charged a full national level match fee for a 2 day local type event with soggy sandwiches made that morning etc.... I haven't paid for a membership for a couple years, and might this year just to shoot the hunter championship at Cameo again, cuz that was amazing last year. My wallet votes for what I'm into, and I think the number of matches available is awesome. That fact is due to the MD's, and I appreciate that.
Here’s my thoughts:
Do what you love and don’t worry about other mess. I shoot PRS, NRL, AG Cup, NRL Hunter, ELR, Benchrest, and some other forms of rifle competition. Why? Because I love being in a competitive field with a rifle in my hand. I usually don’t let the details wrap me up. I have spoke to Shannon from the PRS and Travis from the NRL both in the last 2 days. I am friends with both and will continue to be. No one is forcing you do be part of any organization and there are still many matches you can go shoot for the match alone. I wish to be part of the community, not a wedge of any of it. I would rather see all come together.
The democrats can rally together and not let smaller differences separate them while on the other hand the right will, well........ see above
I hope everyone has a great weekend and stays warm!
Do what you love and don’t worry about other mess. I shoot PRS, NRL, AG Cup, NRL Hunter, ELR, Benchrest, and some other forms of rifle competition. Why? Because I love being in a competitive field with a rifle in my hand. I usually don’t let the details wrap me up. I have spoke to Shannon from the PRS and Travis from the NRL both in the last 2 days. I am friends with both and will continue to be. No one is forcing you do be part of any organization and there are still many matches you can go shoot for the match alone. I wish to be part of the community, not a wedge of any of it. I would rather see all come together.
The democrats can rally together and not let smaller differences separate them while on the other hand the right will, well........ see above
I hope everyone has a great weekend and stays warm!
Thats not true for the 2021 season. All shooters are paying $3 to the PRS per match regardless of PRS membership. Wheather they know it or not MDs have to pay $3/shooter to upload scores after the match. Catch is that if your not a PRS member you paid the $3 bucks but you can't see your score online.
Most MDs are upping match fees or eating the fee this year.
Hi,
What is crazy is we read that Shannon "demands loyalty" from entities, venues and people running matches sanctioned by the PRS...."loyalty" as in you cannot run any other series, etc etc.....
Well in the big boy business world that would be in Federal Court so fast, lolol....
You do not get to say what someone does at a venue you do not own...period.
Can you imagine NSSF telling the Exhibition center in Vegas they cannot hold any other exhibition but ones sanctioned under NSSF umbrella, lolol
Sincerely,
Theis
What is crazy is we read that Shannon "demands loyalty" from entities, venues and people running matches sanctioned by the PRS...."loyalty" as in you cannot run any other series, etc etc.....
Well in the big boy business world that would be in Federal Court so fast, lolol....
You do not get to say what someone does at a venue you do not own...period.
Can you imagine NSSF telling the Exhibition center in Vegas they cannot hold any other exhibition but ones sanctioned under NSSF umbrella, lolol
Sincerely,
Theis
We discussed this at our board meeting last month. Our club decided to eat the fee rather than pass it along to shooters. The main reason being is its been a tough past year with the pandemic. And its going to be another tough year with yet another ammo shortage.
We are a non-profit club anyway. And the club reimburses me as a MD in a lot of other ways other than cash. So we're good with making a little less.
My favorite thing about this video is the damn moustache. Tom was having issues with that thing all day long when he had to put it on to get more video.
So
Go to S.TX . It sounds like the local club matches at rifles only that I was lucky to be apart of. $20 for a match and includes lunch, unfortunately I got transferred to OR so not sure how it now, but as 2017 it was still friendly fun with everyone helping each other and not caring who gets first.
Just a few cents:
1. PRS: When I heard that some of top dogs in the sport had opportunity to overlook the stages, and some of them even where able to to try it before the match made my blood boiling
*IPSC: Few time world/european champ on last europeans IPSC championship sneaked like a mouse just to observe stages from allowed distance, being afraid of being DQ-ed if he even touch the demarcation line, since it would happened in a blink of an eye no matter of his reputation, his sponsors or influence that he had.
*IPSC: World champ in Modify division (who won the title and shoot off against TGO Rob Leatham) was DQ-ed on next European championship leaving his team without precious points in a race for team title, again no matter of his reputation, influence, sponsors....
2. PRS: Asking for loyalty
*IPSC: Current president of IPSC federation is a russian guy backed up with russian oligarch and organization that is rich beyond any imagination.
*Russia applied for World championship and was declined by decision on General Assembly by votes of regional directors (country representatives) no matter how much they "invest" in lobbying
* Year ago Russia applied for European championship and, surprise surprise, again they lost the race by RD votes, against small poor country like Greece.
* One of the top level shooter was/is pissed of buy the organization. No problem, spit around, do any kind of thrash talk, try influence however you want (very present person on social media, admired by so many competitors ), you are still welcome to participate on whatever competition you want.
What USPSA/IPSC brought to competitors ...... To participate on USPSA Nationals, or European Championship you do not need to belong to geographic region. Many competitors from States are coming to Europeans and many others are coming to USPSA Nationals getting together on World Shoots. Different flavour of the same favorite meal. And so many other things...
Not to mention the bonds between competitors from all around the globe, sharing experiences, fun, laugh and good time, helping each other.....
Are those two organizations perfect? Nope. Far from that. Do they have big problems? Sometimes. Questionable decisions? Of course.
Are they resilient to poisonous influence of thugs who sometimes have idea to overtake the organization. Yes, up to unexpected extent.
Just a few differences between organizations that moved dynamic shooting sport from great idea to the world spreaded movement, and some local bunny who overtook / purchased great idea and made it poisonous combination of vanity, authoritarian and selfish bs.
As one of top PRS/NRL competitor said months ago "I miss those days when we laughed more before, during and after matches".
P.S.
Money that is rolling in PRS/NRL is just a pocket money comparing to USPSA/IPSC .... and still they manage to move the sport forward and upward.
Keep smiling.
1. PRS: When I heard that some of top dogs in the sport had opportunity to overlook the stages, and some of them even where able to to try it before the match made my blood boiling
*IPSC: Few time world/european champ on last europeans IPSC championship sneaked like a mouse just to observe stages from allowed distance, being afraid of being DQ-ed if he even touch the demarcation line, since it would happened in a blink of an eye no matter of his reputation, his sponsors or influence that he had.
*IPSC: World champ in Modify division (who won the title and shoot off against TGO Rob Leatham) was DQ-ed on next European championship leaving his team without precious points in a race for team title, again no matter of his reputation, influence, sponsors....
2. PRS: Asking for loyalty
*IPSC: Current president of IPSC federation is a russian guy backed up with russian oligarch and organization that is rich beyond any imagination.
*Russia applied for World championship and was declined by decision on General Assembly by votes of regional directors (country representatives) no matter how much they "invest" in lobbying
* Year ago Russia applied for European championship and, surprise surprise, again they lost the race by RD votes, against small poor country like Greece.
* One of the top level shooter was/is pissed of buy the organization. No problem, spit around, do any kind of thrash talk, try influence however you want (very present person on social media, admired by so many competitors ), you are still welcome to participate on whatever competition you want.
What USPSA/IPSC brought to competitors ...... To participate on USPSA Nationals, or European Championship you do not need to belong to geographic region. Many competitors from States are coming to Europeans and many others are coming to USPSA Nationals getting together on World Shoots. Different flavour of the same favorite meal. And so many other things...
Not to mention the bonds between competitors from all around the globe, sharing experiences, fun, laugh and good time, helping each other.....
Are those two organizations perfect? Nope. Far from that. Do they have big problems? Sometimes. Questionable decisions? Of course.
Are they resilient to poisonous influence of thugs who sometimes have idea to overtake the organization. Yes, up to unexpected extent.
Just a few differences between organizations that moved dynamic shooting sport from great idea to the world spreaded movement, and some local bunny who overtook / purchased great idea and made it poisonous combination of vanity, authoritarian and selfish bs.
As one of top PRS/NRL competitor said months ago "I miss those days when we laughed more before, during and after matches".
P.S.
Money that is rolling in PRS/NRL is just a pocket money comparing to USPSA/IPSC .... and still they manage to move the sport forward and upward.
Keep smiling.
Ken Nelson still runs Practicescore for free, and has made a lot of changes when people bring issues to him. I've talked to him and you can set up a series and track all the stuff through Practiscore. I looked at doing it once for a state level 3 gun series.
I'm very new to PRS, with only 1 PRS match under my belt at the local level. But I've been shooting 3 gun for a while and I've seen 3 gun Nation tank, USPSA basically abandon 3 gun again, and UML try an provide a rule set, but fail to live up to its hype and outlaw 3 gun take back over. I was MD for a 3 gun nation club, and they did give us a rifle that was given away during a random draw of 3 gun nation members that shot matches, but they never followed through in subsequent years with that program even though we paid our dues as a club. Every sanctioning body in 3 gun has failed.
IPSC was born from USPSA and even they've had falling outs over who controls certain aspects of the sport, with USPSA sanctioning events outside of the US. Vince Pinto who headed up IPSC is a piece of work, and you can probably find more than a couple threads out there highlighting some of the stuff he's done. To me, sanctioning bodies end up being a lot more trouble than they are worth.
If your matches are mostly PRS members it makes more sense. In our case we end up paying $150 bucks for a 50 person match when less than 15 will be PRS shooters.
IMO cost should be born by the party that benefits. Asking shooters to pay extra to have scores tracked they can't see is no benefit. Thats why we reduced to one match this year. We want to give our shooters an opportunity to be involved in PRS but we need to limit or financial exposure.
It puts MDs and shooters in a bad position. They have to hide or pass along costs to shooters from an outside vendor. What happens when Shannon wants to raise fees in the future and wants higher controls over your match and club. How do you stop it? What say do MDs really have in the situation. Shannon just says he has expenses and needs more money and we are all just supposed to pony up? Its a free market. If your idea is good and your service is desired people will pay you for it.
After reading several pages of this thread, there’s a few types of people:
1) I’ve shot 1-2 matches and listen to frank, now I hate prs.
2) I’ve participated in matches for years and years and wish PRS more closely resembled the matches 10 years ago.
3) I’m a diehard PRS fanatic and you’re all wrong. Leave Shannon alone!
Just an observation.
My 2c regarding a summit, if the PRS leadership is in attendance than it’s going the wrong direction. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with multiple organizations supporting matches across the nation. PRS can do their thing and someone else can do theirs. I personally like team matches much more than shooting 15 varsities of game changer stations. I advocate for a nation wide team match series. The hunter series is an interesting direction.
1) I’ve shot 1-2 matches and listen to frank, now I hate prs.
2) I’ve participated in matches for years and years and wish PRS more closely resembled the matches 10 years ago.
3) I’m a diehard PRS fanatic and you’re all wrong. Leave Shannon alone!
Just an observation.
My 2c regarding a summit, if the PRS leadership is in attendance than it’s going the wrong direction. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with multiple organizations supporting matches across the nation. PRS can do their thing and someone else can do theirs. I personally like team matches much more than shooting 15 varsities of game changer stations. I advocate for a nation wide team match series. The hunter series is an interesting direction.
All I got from this is I want the name ClamHammer
There’s still about three club matches a month(SoTex, Central, 7foxtrot) that run every month. $50 at the most and most of the time covers lunch.
Occasionally they overlap. But most months you can shoot three club matches for less than a single two day match. It’s pretty cool.
This is what I really missed about living in Texas.
The precision rifle community there is awesome.
Has AI considered sponsoring Shannon??
I’d like to shoot AT-X in production class next year.....
@THEIS I think I found your first sponsored shooter for you.
I’d like to shoot AT-X in production class next year.....
@THEIS I think I found your first sponsored shooter for you.
Hi,
What would sponsoring Shannon get me?
1. Do I get a sign of Hoplite Arms sponsored stage at every sanctioned PRS match?
2. Do I get Hoplite Arms listed in every COF book for every sanctioned PRS match as "Stage 2 brought to you by Hoplite Arms"?
3. What would his 3 year and 5 year plan be to guarantee my ROI?
4. Would he not allow any other rifle in production class?...you know....that loyalty thing....
Is the 2021 maximum cost for "production" class increasing?
Because I am definitely over that limit right now
Sincerely,
Theis
Holy shit. Literal much??
The comparison to benchrest isn’t literal. It’s making a point that the answer to most stage is:
Heavy Rifle tossed on top of a gamechanger.
Also, we teach ABC agencies and military to use tripod as a rear support.
How much more realistic do you want? I’m 1000% serious. My tripod is my most used piece of kit when working behind a rifle. Even a rear support. Your comment really highlights how little you know of real world practicality.
(that being said, I agree tripod support shouldn’t be allowed on most stages. But to make it more challenging, not “realistic.”)
The idea of PRS and realistic shooting is flawed. But anyways rear support with a tripod is taught to military snipers as an option. Just saying maybe it does have a place.
Turns out it’s not broken after all. We’ve wasted 6 pages on nothing. We’re all idiots.
As always, context.
People think that because people are criticizing, they are also telling people not to go out and have fun.
They also like to point out that “I never see people complaining at matches, just online.”
Well, of course. I’m not going to go pay $250 plus expenses to go complain. I’m going to go have as much fun as I can and then talk about what I liked and didn’t like after. Now, if you want to ask me on the spot, sure, I’ll tell you.
So, that straw man “no one complains in person” is bullshit. As that’s not even close to a realistic expectation.
As far as context, I’ll tell you there’s a lot of stupid shit at the upper levels. But, I’ll also tell you to go out and have fun. Be it at a club match or national match. I’d advise people not to pay the membership fee if they personally don’t feel like they should support that league. But that’s a personal choice.
Also, I can’t seem to remember any problem that was ever solved by just not talking about it because is “negative.”
If any league has their head on straight, they’d be reading these threads and taking notes. Some of it is good information.
Again, as always, context. You can complain about a league while still having fun at matches that report to said league.
@Dthomas3523 hits the nail on the head. I see zero point in buying a PRS or PRS Regional membership. For me personally, I'm not going to shoot either finale and the PRS doesn't give enough back to shooters, IMO, to justify spending that money. I'm still going to go shoot my local club series and their two day match because the MD is a close friend and I want to see him be successful.
As far as the NRL, I'm not buying an NRL Pro membership. Can't shoot enough of their two day matches to justify it. On the other hand,, I have zero intention of shooting shooting Border Wars North Central Finale, but I bought a Border Wars membership for the first time in a couple years. My membership gets me early registration and some other benefits that the PRS does not provide.
At the end of the day, the series are selling a product. We as shooters need to decide if that product is worth our hard earned dollars. Same for MDs, they are selling a product/experience. We decide which product/experience is worth our money. Competition among the series, can be good for competitors, either by lower prices or forcing the series to give MDs and shooters better ROI.
As far as the NRL, I'm not buying an NRL Pro membership. Can't shoot enough of their two day matches to justify it. On the other hand,, I have zero intention of shooting shooting Border Wars North Central Finale, but I bought a Border Wars membership for the first time in a couple years. My membership gets me early registration and some other benefits that the PRS does not provide.
At the end of the day, the series are selling a product. We as shooters need to decide if that product is worth our hard earned dollars. Same for MDs, they are selling a product/experience. We decide which product/experience is worth our money. Competition among the series, can be good for competitors, either by lower prices or forcing the series to give MDs and shooters better ROI.
sweet! So essentially you’re supporting the PRS whether you want to or not......sounds like extortion.
You really need to be asking this line of questioning so you get answers from the correct mindset....
· Who owns the organization and how will it support its members?
· Why does the IPRF exist?
o What is the IPRF reason for being?
o What does the community need in your area of expertise?
o What is special about your organization? What do you do differently from other organizations that already exist?
o If your organization did not exist, what would be missing from the community?
· Is their mission to act as a unifying body for the sport of precision rifle worldwide?
· Where does the IPRF see itself in 5 years and what plans are in place to get there?
· Does the IPRF plan to provide a framework, which currently looks strikingly similar to the PRS Rules and Guidelines, to countries who are just getting started in PRS competitions?
· How is the IPRF different from the PRS International Series and what evidence is there that this is not going to be another competing organization?
· How does the IPRF intend to unify the sport of precision rifle worldwide, while they leverage our name for a few years, then cut and paste our rules, classes, categories, divisions, etc. only to devise a duplicate version of the PRS International Series minus any real investment in building the sport at the grassroots level?
· Does IPRF expect the PRS to collapse all PRS International Series and our plans to host a PRS World Championships which was delayed due to COVID?
· Is it the intent of the IPRF to copy the PRS Framework, rules, and infrastructure that has been built by the PRS since its inception?
· Why did the IPRF president, US representatives or leadership not contact the PRS for its support and involvement or for collaboration?
· Who elected the US leadership to represent us? Why didn’t the shooters, or established organizations in the US have a vote?
Seems like there might potentially be value in having two competing bodies? It might encourage both entities to work harder to have the best possible events for the shooters. Monopolies rarely work out to the best benefit of the customer.
And to add to the PRS drama. It was possibly a 50/50 vote to let known and proven cheaters back in the series. They should have a lifetime ban. Period. I can think of the top iPad cheater from this past year and i have seen him walk away with thousands of dollars in rifles and prizes from big two day events. Forget how stupid it is to even think about letting him back in the series but that is a crime in my opinion. But it just amazes me that almost half the MD’s voted to let him back in. I hope they are just kissing Shannon’s ass because that is beyond stupid. And just for the record. I have shot two NRL matches here in the SE when they were trying to get a foot hold and i thoroughly enjoyed both. Totally different vibe than PRS. Travis Ishida and the guys were very very supportive and had fun.
That's a very inaccurate representation of what occurred.
There were zero votes from the MDs to allow him to return. There were 11 votes to ban him. There were 13 votes to allow the SE Regional Directors to decide his fate. Those directors and their shooters were the ones he cheated. And they were the ones who would have to allow him to participate at their matches if he were allowed to return. And it was stipulated up front that it must be unanimous. If one director said no, the ban would remain in place.
They didn't want him back. It wasn't even close. So he is banned and highly unlikely to ever return. The only reason they just don't drop a lifetime ban on him is because there is no stipulation for a lifetime ban in the rulebook at the time of the offense. So they stuck to the rules and addressed it accordingly.
Not exactly what i heard. I don’t even know why it would come to a vote. Lol. A cheater is a cheater. But you sound like your in the know so I’ll let that go as what happened. Long as he/them are not back i don’t give a shit how it went down. Thanks for the clarification.
I'm one of the guys who wish it could be like the old days... No drama, No wiggly barricade stages, after more stages with the many arrays of circus props. Less opportunity to cheat, etc. Less rules, and more fun was the theme back in the day.
I became a PRS member as I thought it was the right thing to do to be part of the shooting community. I was wrong, there were no benefits. The finial straw where I saw the light, and the last year I was a paying member was when I had a 5th, 16th, and 32nd place finishes at 2-day matches that season. I'm typically the middle of the pack finisher at the big two day matches. I had a good season that year, and think I was rated at 200th in the Series. I wasn't chasing points, and even though I like competition, I wasn't there for the points, as I just wanted to compete and have fun. Anyhow, I wasn't invited to the PRS Finale, but some how I saw guys who did worse than me overall, and much lower on the overall season rankings get invited to the PRS Finale. I'm not bitter about it, as I couldn't have gone anyway because of work commitments, but it was an awakening to the politics and scandal in PRS.
I became a PRS member as I thought it was the right thing to do to be part of the shooting community. I was wrong, there were no benefits. The finial straw where I saw the light, and the last year I was a paying member was when I had a 5th, 16th, and 32nd place finishes at 2-day matches that season. I'm typically the middle of the pack finisher at the big two day matches. I had a good season that year, and think I was rated at 200th in the Series. I wasn't chasing points, and even though I like competition, I wasn't there for the points, as I just wanted to compete and have fun. Anyhow, I wasn't invited to the PRS Finale, but some how I saw guys who did worse than me overall, and much lower on the overall season rankings get invited to the PRS Finale. I'm not bitter about it, as I couldn't have gone anyway because of work commitments, but it was an awakening to the politics and scandal in PRS.
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The US is powerful, when it's not broken up. When is, it is laughable. Like two cocks fighting.
Last night I had a revelation
I am gonna spell out a 2 gun fightin rifle program
I have an idea, one to give away and let me replicated
more to follow, sitting delayed on a plane
I am gonna spell out a 2 gun fightin rifle program
I have an idea, one to give away and let me replicated
more to follow, sitting delayed on a plane
Clearly it is, may not help the PRS but it’s opening eyes and changes are happing
change is coming on fast too, go west young man
don’t like leave
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