Why we can't have nice things,

[LoCal247]

State = Local Matches - build these up, they do all the heavy lifting

Regional = Bridge Local matches together, then move up a level -->

Nation = Bridge Regions w/ Playoffs Bracket Style heading towards a Championship

National Championships --------> Move people Internationally

As noted in a different discussion, all these matches are unique in a lot of ways. They are individually run and there is no standard to the course of fire. You can have some repeated stages, but they differ from Qualification Stages because they are not universal. You want to promote the randomness of the sport. We don't want to constantly repeat ourselves, we need to be unique in that we are not 100% standardized. That is where the fun and development come from.

In my mind, the last 5 years of competition focused on the development of Parts and Products more than improving the level of competition. Guys running 20+LBS 6mms are more about the engineering than the shooting. If your goal is to remove shooter input, you are not a shooter.

They stopped developing the series in order to develop products too be sold or promoted.

Put the focus back in the competition, not so much into the gear

Wow I wasn’t sure if I was missing something as a guy who just started getting into Pr shooting these last 2 years. Adding weights to already pretty heavy rifles made me think are they just trying to engineer portable bench rest rifles aka take the shooter equation out of it. One day the new and improved gear cycle will burst and maybe the focus will be back where it sounds like it should be.

 

[Alpine 338]

I was at that particular match and witnessed some of the most selfless and generous acts from people and companies. Regina M gave her table walk to a new lady shooter, and I think another company or two basically put a whole rifle together for her.
The AI rifle deal was something that made me loyal to Mile High as well, how awesome was that? How many others probably felt the same way? That was a hero move I'd say.

Yes, in addition to MIle High, we had several other companies contribute to the prize table with full custom built rifles. Many sponsors get little or no recognition for the amount of support they offer to these matches.

 

[mahlv]

Yes, in addition to MIle High, we had several other companies contribute to the prize table with full custom built rifles. Many sponsors get little or no recognition for the amount of support they offer to these matches.

For sure, but the gesture of rewarding a guy in the lower 2/3 or 1/2 of the field with a rifle such as that speaks volumes. I haven't seen that anywhere else, not that I'm a world traveler or anything but I'm betting it's rare

 

[sstacllc]

That you think it’s only me is showing part of the problem. It’s not only me. But the collective being more important than the individual sounds familiar.

Exactly easy to loose sight of that

 

[Alpine 338]

Yes it is time to have a summit. I'll be interested to see who shows up.

Scott, I'm hoping you're one of the guys who shows up. We need good representation from people like you and Frank who will take this sport back to its original roots, where the words "Precision" and "Practical" actually stood for something, unlike today where it's just words that fill a void without meaning.

 

[sstacllc]

Wow I wasn’t sure if I was missing something as a guy who just started getting into Pr shooting these last 2 years. Adding weights to already pretty heavy rifles made me think are they just trying to engineer portable bench rest rifles aka take the shooter equation out of it. One day the new and improved gear cycle will burst and maybe the focus will be back where it sounds like it should be.

Like the NRL Hunter series?

 

[sstacllc]

Scott, I'm hoping you're one of the guys who shows up. We need good representation from people like you and Frank who will take this sport back to its original roots, where the words "Precision" and "Practical" actually stood for something, unlike today where it's just words that fill a void without meaning.

I'll be there for sure

 

[sobrbiker883]

“Barricade benchrest”

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

All I know is not another dollar of my money will go towards the PRS. I lost a nice local series in my area all because shannon couldn't stand it got more local attention than his prs and pressured the MDs. Until he is out of the picture I'll forever be an opponent of the PRS. I blame the MDs almost as much for caving. This is aside from the BS i had to deal with as an RO when him and his trailer of assholes came for a match.

I miss the days when you had to actually solve a stage or use a little more brain power on the target package instead of 10-12rds 1 or 5 positions and obstacles with given heights.

I'm really hoping this international group and summit stuff will either be the end of shannon or the prs and make way for something with better intentions.

 

[Zoomie]

State>regional>national. This is the way you build an organization. Not from the top down, from the bottom up. Synthesize your rules the same way. Agree on what they are between the states and regions. Incorporate that with a national imprimatur. Put on your big boy pants and be ready to give up your personal sine qua non for the good of the sport. I am so tired of the top down political laden garbage. It's why I don't get involved. It's a bunch of man-babies with personal agendas who forget that people on a state/local get involved for the love of it, not anything else.

 

[Jon Lester]

I just wish we could go back to the late 90s and early 2000s

we just showed up to a place, shot a completely different match than the last one with what we had, made friends, met new ones and went home!

 

[Josh1978]

This may have already been stated and I apologize if this a repeat.
Who does Shannon think he is questioning someone else’s business model? He has no business asking about a 5 year plan or anything else.
I am new to the competition shooting world and haven’t even had an opportunity to go watch a match. I can tell you that I will not be attending any PRS events. Shannon needs to spend sometime humbling himself.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

I can tell you that I will not be attending any PRS events.

As has been stated several times in this thread already, you can shoot as many regular season PRS matches (regional, pro-series, and rimfire) as you'd like without purchasing a PRS membership.

You'll still be supporting the venue and match director, and will still have your score posted on Practiscore. As a non-member, you just won't have a "shooter profile" on the PRS website tracking your scores, and probably won't be able to shoot a finale match. But you also won't be paying money to an organization you prefer not to support.

Not wanting to join the PRS doesn't necessarily mean you have to boycott matches.

 

[mahlv]

As has been stated several times in this thread already, you can shoot as many regular season PRS matches (regional, pro-series, and rimfire) as you'd like without purchasing a PRS membership.

You'll still be supporting the venue and match director, and will still have your score posted on Practiscore. As a non-member, you just won't have a "shooter profile" on the PRS website tracking your scores, and probably won't be able to shoot a finale match. But you also won't be paying money to an organization you prefer not to support.

Not wanting to join the PRS doesn't necessarily mean you have to boycott matches.

Kinda the beauty of the deal for prs/nrl in a way. The sentiment of boycotting one or the other really hurts the MD's more than the prs/nrl, so why should they (prs/nrl) give a shit as long as the dough keeps coming in? I've experienced great matches and pyramid scheme type ran rip off matches, all with no correlation to affiliations with either league. I'm a type of consumer/customer that remembers the sting of the bullshit when an MD changes the scoring because enough people cried cuz they couldn't spin the spinner, or they charged a full national level match fee for a 2 day local type event with soggy sandwiches made that morning etc.... I haven't paid for a membership for a couple years, and might this year just to shoot the hunter championship at Cameo again, cuz that was amazing last year. My wallet votes for what I'm into, and I think the number of matches available is awesome. That fact is due to the MD's, and I appreciate that.

 

[RobertB]

Here’s my thoughts:
Do what you love and don’t worry about other mess. I shoot PRS, NRL, AG Cup, NRL Hunter, ELR, Benchrest, and some other forms of rifle competition. Why? Because I love being in a competitive field with a rifle in my hand. I usually don’t let the details wrap me up. I have spoke to Shannon from the PRS and Travis from the NRL both in the last 2 days. I am friends with both and will continue to be. No one is forcing you do be part of any organization and there are still many matches you can go shoot for the match alone. I wish to be part of the community, not a wedge of any of it. I would rather see all come together.

The democrats can rally together and not let smaller differences separate them while on the other hand the right will, well........ see above

I hope everyone has a great weekend and stays warm!

 

[RobertB]

Really, this is all that matters.

 

[Ordnance Locker]

 

[Busby.]

I just wish we could go back to the late 90s and early 2000s

we just showed up to a place, shot a completely different match than the last one with what we had, made friends, met new ones and went home!

This right here!

 

[Longshot79]

As has been stated several times in this thread already, you can shoot as many regular season PRS matches (regional, pro-series, and rimfire) as you'd like without purchasing a PRS membership.

You'll still be supporting the venue and match director, and will still have your score posted on Practiscore. As a non-member, you just won't have a "shooter profile" on the PRS website tracking your scores, and probably won't be able to shoot a finale match. But you also won't be paying money to an organization you prefer not to support.

Not wanting to join the PRS doesn't necessarily mean you have to boycott matches.

Thats not true for the 2021 season. All shooters are paying $3 to the PRS per match regardless of PRS membership. Wheather they know it or not MDs have to pay $3/shooter to upload scores after the match. Catch is that if your not a PRS member you paid the $3 bucks but you can't see your score online.

Most MDs are upping match fees or eating the fee this year.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

What is crazy is we read that Shannon "demands loyalty" from entities, venues and people running matches sanctioned by the PRS...."loyalty" as in you cannot run any other series, etc etc.....

Well in the big boy business world that would be in Federal Court so fast, lolol....
You do not get to say what someone does at a venue you do not own...period.
Can you imagine NSSF telling the Exhibition center in Vegas they cannot hold any other exhibition but ones sanctioned under NSSF umbrella, lolol

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Birddog6424]

Thats not true for the 2021 season. All shooters are paying $3 to the PRS per match regardless of PRS membership. Wheather they know it or not MDs have to pay $3/shooter to upload scores after the match. Catch is that if your not a PRS member you paid the $3 bucks but you can't see your score online.

Most MDs are upping match fees or eating the fee this year.

We discussed this at our board meeting last month. Our club decided to eat the fee rather than pass it along to shooters. The main reason being is its been a tough past year with the pandemic. And its going to be another tough year with yet another ammo shortage.

We are a non-profit club anyway. And the club reimburses me as a MD in a lot of other ways other than cash. So we're good with making a little less.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Really, this is all that matters.

My favorite thing about this video is the damn moustache. Tom was having issues with that thing all day long when he had to put it on to get more video.

 

[Sniperwannabee]

So

I just wish we could go back to the late 90s and early 2000s

we just showed up to a place, shot a completely different match than the last one with what we had, made friends, met new ones and went home!

Go to S.TX . It sounds like the local club matches at rifles only that I was lucky to be apart of. $20 for a match and includes lunch, unfortunately I got transferred to OR so not sure how it now, but as 2017 it was still friendly fun with everyone helping each other and not caring who gets first.

 

[alexunderfire]

Just a few cents:

1. PRS: When I heard that some of top dogs in the sport had opportunity to overlook the stages, and some of them even where able to to try it before the match made my blood boiling

*IPSC: Few time world/european champ on last europeans IPSC championship sneaked like a mouse just to observe stages from allowed distance, being afraid of being DQ-ed if he even touch the demarcation line, since it would happened in a blink of an eye no matter of his reputation, his sponsors or influence that he had.
*IPSC: World champ in Modify division (who won the title and shoot off against TGO Rob Leatham) was DQ-ed on next European championship leaving his team without precious points in a race for team title, again no matter of his reputation, influence, sponsors....

2. PRS: Asking for loyalty
*IPSC: Current president of IPSC federation is a russian guy backed up with russian oligarch and organization that is rich beyond any imagination.
*Russia applied for World championship and was declined by decision on General Assembly by votes of regional directors (country representatives) no matter how much they "invest" in lobbying
* Year ago Russia applied for European championship and, surprise surprise, again they lost the race by RD votes, against small poor country like Greece.
* One of the top level shooter was/is pissed of buy the organization. No problem, spit around, do any kind of thrash talk, try influence however you want (very present person on social media, admired by so many competitors ), you are still welcome to participate on whatever competition you want.

What USPSA/IPSC brought to competitors ...... To participate on USPSA Nationals, or European Championship you do not need to belong to geographic region. Many competitors from States are coming to Europeans and many others are coming to USPSA Nationals getting together on World Shoots. Different flavour of the same favorite meal. And so many other things...

Not to mention the bonds between competitors from all around the globe, sharing experiences, fun, laugh and good time, helping each other.....

Are those two organizations perfect? Nope. Far from that. Do they have big problems? Sometimes. Questionable decisions? Of course.
Are they resilient to poisonous influence of thugs who sometimes have idea to overtake the organization. Yes, up to unexpected extent.

Just a few differences between organizations that moved dynamic shooting sport from great idea to the world spreaded movement, and some local bunny who overtook / purchased great idea and made it poisonous combination of vanity, authoritarian and selfish bs.

As one of top PRS/NRL competitor said months ago "I miss those days when we laughed more before, during and after matches".


P.S.
Money that is rolling in PRS/NRL is just a pocket money comparing to USPSA/IPSC .... and still they manage to move the sport forward and upward.

Keep smiling.

 

[AFGWS]

The improvements to Practiscore are pretty good,

I remember the sit down at Shot with them, at first it was a bit like pulling teeth, so I was not a big fan. Now it's a much better system and should be leverage to do a lot of the work we are talking about.

These small infrastructure things are what I am talking about, you first build these features and programs in place, you don't charge for it in the beginning until it is flushed out better. When you have a universal APP every MD and Competitor can download you can charge them money. He is charging you to Beta test another companies' product.

But Practiscore today is one of the key functions to leverage and improve the experience

If Practiscore said, hey PRS its gonna be $XXXXX for the App, or the scoring system, he can say, great that is perfect, and the PRS use the money they collect to employ it, or they say, no that is too expensive for the series to foot, how about partnering with the biggest Facility to share costs?

Free app though isn't it ? maybe there is a hidden fee, or they added fees since last I looked

Ken Nelson still runs Practicescore for free, and has made a lot of changes when people bring issues to him. I've talked to him and you can set up a series and track all the stuff through Practiscore. I looked at doing it once for a state level 3 gun series.

I'm very new to PRS, with only 1 PRS match under my belt at the local level. But I've been shooting 3 gun for a while and I've seen 3 gun Nation tank, USPSA basically abandon 3 gun again, and UML try an provide a rule set, but fail to live up to its hype and outlaw 3 gun take back over. I was MD for a 3 gun nation club, and they did give us a rifle that was given away during a random draw of 3 gun nation members that shot matches, but they never followed through in subsequent years with that program even though we paid our dues as a club. Every sanctioning body in 3 gun has failed.

IPSC was born from USPSA and even they've had falling outs over who controls certain aspects of the sport, with USPSA sanctioning events outside of the US. Vince Pinto who headed up IPSC is a piece of work, and you can probably find more than a couple threads out there highlighting some of the stuff he's done. To me, sanctioning bodies end up being a lot more trouble than they are worth.

 

[Longshot79]

We discussed this at our board meeting last month. Our club decided to eat the fee rather than pass it along to shooters. The main reason being is its been a tough past year with the pandemic. And its going to be another tough year with yet another ammo shortage.

We are a non-profit club anyway. And the club reimburses me as a MD in a lot of other ways other than cash. So we're good with making a little less.

If your matches are mostly PRS members it makes more sense. In our case we end up paying $150 bucks for a 50 person match when less than 15 will be PRS shooters.

IMO cost should be born by the party that benefits. Asking shooters to pay extra to have scores tracked they can't see is no benefit. Thats why we reduced to one match this year. We want to give our shooters an opportunity to be involved in PRS but we need to limit or financial exposure.

It puts MDs and shooters in a bad position. They have to hide or pass along costs to shooters from an outside vendor. What happens when Shannon wants to raise fees in the future and wants higher controls over your match and club. How do you stop it? What say do MDs really have in the situation. Shannon just says he has expenses and needs more money and we are all just supposed to pony up? Its a free market. If your idea is good and your service is desired people will pay you for it.

 

[JustSendit]

After reading several pages of this thread, there’s a few types of people:

1) I’ve shot 1-2 matches and listen to frank, now I hate prs.

2) I’ve participated in matches for years and years and wish PRS more closely resembled the matches 10 years ago.

3) I’m a diehard PRS fanatic and you’re all wrong. Leave Shannon alone!

Just an observation.

My 2c regarding a summit, if the PRS leadership is in attendance than it’s going the wrong direction. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with multiple organizations supporting matches across the nation. PRS can do their thing and someone else can do theirs. I personally like team matches much more than shooting 15 varsities of game changer stations. I advocate for a nation wide team match series. The hunter series is an interesting direction.

 

[Jmoesdad]

All I got from this is I want the name ClamHammer

 

[Dthomas3523]

So

Go to S.TX . It sounds like the local club matches at rifles only that I was lucky to be apart of. $20 for a match and includes lunch, unfortunately I got transferred to OR so not sure how it now, but as 2017 it was still friendly fun with everyone helping each other and not caring who gets first.

There’s still about three club matches a month(SoTex, Central, 7foxtrot) that run every month. $50 at the most and most of the time covers lunch.

Occasionally they overlap. But most months you can shoot three club matches for less than a single two day match. It’s pretty cool.

 

[kthomas]

There’s still about three club matches a month(SoTex, Central, 7foxtrot) that run every month. $50 at the most and most of the time covers lunch.

Occasionally they overlap. But most months you can shoot three club matches for less than a single two day match. It’s pretty cool.

This is what I really missed about living in Texas.

The precision rifle community there is awesome.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Has AI considered sponsoring Shannon??

I’d like to shoot AT-X in production class next year.....

@THEIS I think I found your first sponsored shooter for you.

 

[THEIS]

Has AI considered sponsoring Shannon??

I’d like to shoot AT-X in production class next year.....

@THEIS I think I found your first sponsored shooter for you.

Hi,

What would sponsoring Shannon get me?
1. Do I get a sign of Hoplite Arms sponsored stage at every sanctioned PRS match?
2. Do I get Hoplite Arms listed in every COF book for every sanctioned PRS match as "Stage 2 brought to you by Hoplite Arms"?
3. What would his 3 year and 5 year plan be to guarantee my ROI?
4. Would he not allow any other rifle in production class?...you know....that loyalty thing....

Is the 2021 maximum cost for "production" class increasing?
Because I am definitely over that limit right now

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Dthomas3523]

So many good idea fairies out there.

Make a match that is better than the PRS/NRL format and people will come. Period. But no one has. I get that there are other series popping up in the country and that's great. I'm looking forward to see if any aspect is better and get MD's to change up a couple stages if its worth it.

PRS isn't tactical benchrest(not even close) and the majority of stages aren't a game changer and a piece of lumber. At least not in the PRS matches I attend. If you want proof, invite a good bench rest shooter out to a PRS match. It won't end well for him and have seen it multiple times. If people really want to have a discussion about changing something to make it more "realistic", get rid of dumbass tripods as rear support. It's ridiculous looking as it is impractical.

As for growing the sport, how about stop shit talking everyone associated with the sport, the leadership, MD's, and discouraging good people on the fence from having a good time. You're the reason we can't have a nice things.

Holy shit. Literal much??

The comparison to benchrest isn’t literal. It’s making a point that the answer to most stage is:

Heavy Rifle tossed on top of a gamechanger.

 

[Dthomas3523]

So many good idea fairies out there.

Make a match that is better than the PRS/NRL format and people will come. Period. But no one has. I get that there are other series popping up in the country and that's great. I'm looking forward to see if any aspect is better and get MD's to change up a couple stages if its worth it.

PRS isn't tactical benchrest(not even close) and the majority of stages aren't a game changer and a piece of lumber. At least not in the PRS matches I attend. If you want proof, invite a good bench rest shooter out to a PRS match. It won't end well for him and have seen it multiple times. If people really want to have a discussion about changing something to make it more "realistic", get rid of dumbass tripods as rear support. It's ridiculous looking as it is impractical.

As for growing the sport, how about stop shit talking everyone associated with the sport, the leadership, MD's, and discouraging good people on the fence from having a good time. You're the reason we can't have a nice things.

Also, we teach ABC agencies and military to use tripod as a rear support.

How much more realistic do you want? I’m 1000% serious. My tripod is my most used piece of kit when working behind a rifle. Even a rear support. Your comment really highlights how little you know of real world practicality.

(that being said, I agree tripod support shouldn’t be allowed on most stages. But to make it more challenging, not “realistic.”)

 

[JustSendit]

So many good idea fairies out there.

Make a match that is better than the PRS/NRL format and people will come. Period. But no one has. I get that there are other series popping up in the country and that's great. I'm looking forward to see if any aspect is better and get MD's to change up a couple stages if its worth it.

PRS isn't tactical benchrest(not even close) and the majority of stages aren't a game changer and a piece of lumber. At least not in the PRS matches I attend. If you want proof, invite a good bench rest shooter out to a PRS match. It won't end well for him and have seen it multiple times. If people really want to have a discussion about changing something to make it more "realistic", get rid of dumbass tripods as rear support. It's ridiculous looking as it is impractical.

As for growing the sport, how about stop shit talking everyone associated with the sport, the leadership, MD's, and discouraging good people on the fence from having a good time. You're the reason we can't have a nice things.

The idea of PRS and realistic shooting is flawed. But anyways rear support with a tripod is taught to military snipers as an option. Just saying maybe it does have a place.

 

[Newbie2020]

Turns out it’s not broken after all. We’ve wasted 6 pages on nothing. We’re all idiots.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Turns out it’s not broken after all. We’ve wasted 6 pages on nothing. We’re all idiots.

As always, context.

People think that because people are criticizing, they are also telling people not to go out and have fun.

They also like to point out that “I never see people complaining at matches, just online.”

Well, of course. I’m not going to go pay $250 plus expenses to go complain. I’m going to go have as much fun as I can and then talk about what I liked and didn’t like after. Now, if you want to ask me on the spot, sure, I’ll tell you.

So, that straw man “no one complains in person” is bullshit. As that’s not even close to a realistic expectation.

As far as context, I’ll tell you there’s a lot of stupid shit at the upper levels. But, I’ll also tell you to go out and have fun. Be it at a club match or national match. I’d advise people not to pay the membership fee if they personally don’t feel like they should support that league. But that’s a personal choice.

Also, I can’t seem to remember any problem that was ever solved by just not talking about it because is “negative.”

If any league has their head on straight, they’d be reading these threads and taking notes. Some of it is good information.

Again, as always, context. You can complain about a league while still having fun at matches that report to said league.

 

[Mormegil87]

@Dthomas3523 hits the nail on the head. I see zero point in buying a PRS or PRS Regional membership. For me personally, I'm not going to shoot either finale and the PRS doesn't give enough back to shooters, IMO, to justify spending that money. I'm still going to go shoot my local club series and their two day match because the MD is a close friend and I want to see him be successful.

As far as the NRL, I'm not buying an NRL Pro membership. Can't shoot enough of their two day matches to justify it. On the other hand,, I have zero intention of shooting shooting Border Wars North Central Finale, but I bought a Border Wars membership for the first time in a couple years. My membership gets me early registration and some other benefits that the PRS does not provide.

At the end of the day, the series are selling a product. We as shooters need to decide if that product is worth our hard earned dollars. Same for MDs, they are selling a product/experience. We decide which product/experience is worth our money. Competition among the series, can be good for competitors, either by lower prices or forcing the series to give MDs and shooters better ROI.

 

[grovermn5]

Thats not true for the 2021 season. All shooters are paying $3 to the PRS per match regardless of PRS membership. Wheather they know it or not MDs have to pay $3/shooter to upload scores after the match. Catch is that if your not a PRS member you paid the $3 bucks but you can't see your score online.

Most MDs are upping match fees or eating the fee this year.

sweet! So essentially you’re supporting the PRS whether you want to or not......sounds like extortion.

 

[Long Range 338]

Hi,

What would sponsoring Shannon get me?
1. Do I get a sign of Hoplite Arms sponsored stage at every sanctioned PRS match?
2. Do I get Hoplite Arms listed in every COF book for every sanctioned PRS match as "Stage 2 brought to you by Hoplite Arms"?
3. What would his 3 year and 5 year plan be to guarantee my ROI?
4. Would he not allow any other rifle in production class?...you know....that loyalty thing....

Is the 2021 maximum cost for "production" class increasing?
Because I am definitely over that limit right now

Sincerely,
Theis

You really need to be asking this line of questioning so you get answers from the correct mindset....


· Who owns the organization and how will it support its members?

· Why does the IPRF exist?

o What is the IPRF reason for being?

o What does the community need in your area of expertise?

o What is special about your organization? What do you do differently from other organizations that already exist?

o If your organization did not exist, what would be missing from the community?

· Is their mission to act as a unifying body for the sport of precision rifle worldwide?

· Where does the IPRF see itself in 5 years and what plans are in place to get there?

· Does the IPRF plan to provide a framework, which currently looks strikingly similar to the PRS Rules and Guidelines, to countries who are just getting started in PRS competitions?

· How is the IPRF different from the PRS International Series and what evidence is there that this is not going to be another competing organization?

· How does the IPRF intend to unify the sport of precision rifle worldwide, while they leverage our name for a few years, then cut and paste our rules, classes, categories, divisions, etc. only to devise a duplicate version of the PRS International Series minus any real investment in building the sport at the grassroots level?

· Does IPRF expect the PRS to collapse all PRS International Series and our plans to host a PRS World Championships which was delayed due to COVID?

· Is it the intent of the IPRF to copy the PRS Framework, rules, and infrastructure that has been built by the PRS since its inception?

· Why did the IPRF president, US representatives or leadership not contact the PRS for its support and involvement or for collaboration?

· Who elected the US leadership to represent us? Why didn’t the shooters, or established organizations in the US have a vote?

 

[Newbie2020]

Seems like there might potentially be value in having two competing bodies? It might encourage both entities to work harder to have the best possible events for the shooters. Monopolies rarely work out to the best benefit of the customer.

 

[Aviatorfreak]

And to add to the PRS drama. It was possibly a 50/50 vote to let known and proven cheaters back in the series. They should have a lifetime ban. Period. I can think of the top iPad cheater from this past year and i have seen him walk away with thousands of dollars in rifles and prizes from big two day events. Forget how stupid it is to even think about letting him back in the series but that is a crime in my opinion. But it just amazes me that almost half the MD’s voted to let him back in. I hope they are just kissing Shannon’s ass because that is beyond stupid. And just for the record. I have shot two NRL matches here in the SE when they were trying to get a foot hold and i thoroughly enjoyed both. Totally different vibe than PRS. Travis Ishida and the guys were very very supportive and had fun.

 

[Birddog6424]

And to add to the PRS drama. It was possibly a 50/50 vote to let known and proven cheaters back in the series. They should have a lifetime ban. Period. I can think of the top iPad cheater from this past year and i have seen him walk away with thousands of dollars in rifles and prizes from big two day events. Forget how stupid it is to even think about letting him back in the series but that is a crime in my opinion. But it just amazes me that almost half the MD’s voted to let him back in. I hope they are just kissing Shannon’s ass because that is beyond stupid.

That's a very inaccurate representation of what occurred.

There were zero votes from the MDs to allow him to return. There were 11 votes to ban him. There were 13 votes to allow the SE Regional Directors to decide his fate. Those directors and their shooters were the ones he cheated. And they were the ones who would have to allow him to participate at their matches if he were allowed to return. And it was stipulated up front that it must be unanimous. If one director said no, the ban would remain in place.

They didn't want him back. It wasn't even close. So he is banned and highly unlikely to ever return. The only reason they just don't drop a lifetime ban on him is because there is no stipulation for a lifetime ban in the rulebook at the time of the offense. So they stuck to the rules and addressed it accordingly.

 

[Aviatorfreak]

That's a very inaccurate representation of what occurred.

There were zero votes from the MDs to allow him to return. There were 11 votes to ban him. There were 13 votes to allow the SE Regional Directors to decide his fate. Those directors and their shooters were the ones he cheated. And they were the ones who would have to allow him to participate at their matches if he were allowed to return. And it was stipulated up front that it must be unanimous. If one director said no, the ban would remain in place.

They didn't want him back. It wasn't even close. So he is banned and highly unlikely to ever return. The only reason they just don't drop a lifetime ban on him is because there is no stipulation for a lifetime ban in the rulebook at the time of the offense. So they stuck to the rules and addressed it accordingly.

That's a very inaccurate representation of what occurred.

There were zero votes from the MDs to allow him to return. There were 11 votes to ban him. There were 13 votes to allow the SE Regional Directors to decide his fate. Those directors and their shooters were the ones he cheated. And they were the ones who would have to allow him to participate at their matches if he were allowed to return. And it was stipulated up front that it must be unanimous. If one director said no, the ban would remain in place.

They didn't want him back. It wasn't even close. So he is banned and highly unlikely to ever return. The only reason they just don't drop a lifetime ban on him is because there is no stipulation for a lifetime ban in the rulebook at the time of the offense. So they stuck to the rules and addressed it accordingly.

Not exactly what i heard. I don’t even know why it would come to a vote. Lol. A cheater is a cheater. But you sound like your in the know so I’ll let that go as what happened. Long as he/them are not back i don’t give a shit how it went down. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Alpine 338]

I'm one of the guys who wish it could be like the old days... No drama, No wiggly barricade stages, after more stages with the many arrays of circus props. Less opportunity to cheat, etc. Less rules, and more fun was the theme back in the day.

I became a PRS member as I thought it was the right thing to do to be part of the shooting community. I was wrong, there were no benefits. The finial straw where I saw the light, and the last year I was a paying member was when I had a 5th, 16th, and 32nd place finishes at 2-day matches that season. I'm typically the middle of the pack finisher at the big two day matches. I had a good season that year, and think I was rated at 200th in the Series. I wasn't chasing points, and even though I like competition, I wasn't there for the points, as I just wanted to compete and have fun. Anyhow, I wasn't invited to the PRS Finale, but some how I saw guys who did worse than me overall, and much lower on the overall season rankings get invited to the PRS Finale. I'm not bitter about it, as I couldn't have gone anyway because of work commitments, but it was an awakening to the politics and scandal in PRS.

 

[warbird2006]

This is why we can't have nice things,

I talked about a lot of inside ball over the years in regards to competitions. As noted many times, this is not new, not even the idea of a series. In the early 2000s there was a series attempt and it failed. Part of the problem is growth and being forward thinking enough to understand, nobody owns this game. The idea that one group is in charge of Precision Rifle Competition is silly on its face, and insulting when you understand the history.

When the PRS started in 2012 it was on the heels of what Jacob and I were doing at Rifles Only. Sure there was other matches here and there. In a typical year back in 2004 you might have 4 two day matches. Each one of those matches might have 50 shooters. The rules, the format, everything was flexible it was just a group of like minded people enjoying a hobby. As the community grew, in part because of Sniper's Hide, it was where everyone hung before the FB Groups, we discussed, coordinated, debated, and argued about what we are doing.

The joint Sniper's Hide / Rifles Only matches set the standard, but that standard needs to change. The idea you could build a series around this game is flawed. We have too many individuals with to big of personalities to manage a one size fits all approach. The conflicts of the past divided the shooter community into East & West, North & South, Affiliated and Nomad. It's time for a change.

2020 was a mess, Countries shut down, everyone on hold, but we managed.

We need to reflect as a group and have a big reset. The mindset and reasonings have changed, the equipment has evolved, the locations have grown and adapted into something nobody really likes. We all recognize the benefit of competition shooting, but we also have to acknowledge the damage it has caused on across the board. Nothing we do is set in stone, there is no Association that oversees what we do, no governing board that requires we vote to change directions. We are still grassroots despite the money we bring in, and put out. So changes are really easy, you just have to agree to consider them.

I think the regions are the answer, we can't have a National Governing Body in the United States. It's too fractured, broke, and beyond repair. Besides who really owns this... nobody. Before going too far forward, my thoughts are create Regional groups of like minded people. Determine your own rules and standards, and then if you have to test your work, find other regions to compete against. The Nationals Stage is broken beyond repair, it will never serve the community as a whole when it designed to enrich only a select few.

Recently on the Everyday Sniper Podcast I have been talking to people about this very thing. Creating Regional Divisions for people to compete under. Those regions are working together to cut out the National organizations because of the in-fighting taking place. It's a natural thing when the big stage no longer works for the individual they will just build a community one for the locals to enjoy. As I have noted many, many times, I have turned into the Complaint Department for the Competition Series. The Series wants to control the message so the competitors find other avenues to get the message out. I happen to be that sympathetic ear. This stated, I have some communication between Shannon and the PRS in response to the International Precision Rifle Federation.

The response from the IPRF will make it clear the inside ball, it will answer those questions the first email might not. So read both:

PRS Email First :




So they reached out to the various groups to Invite the PRS to send a Team to Compete, that was the answer above and here is their response below



We are doomed to failure if we continue down this path.

I think we need a Summit here in the United States, one that sits all interested parties down for a minimum of 2 days. One that hammers out the objectives of this community. One that puts to rest the infighting and disorganization, if a group does not want to play ball with the rest, that group can be an Island alone. From here changes can be made to reset things in a positive direction. Plenty of smart people engage in this activity we have more than enough examples to pick and choose from in order to build a better mousetrap. The direction things are currently moving on the big stage are short for this world. We can grow the sport together, or we can work without certain individuals and operate around them in other ways. This is not something one person should claim to own. We are barely playing with .1% right now, growing it together would be huge.

There is the individual good, and the greater good. Today it's a bunch of individuals claiming to be working for the greater good, we all know that is bullshit to include me. We fractured and broke years ago and have been playing games ever since. Time to fix it or forget it and move on to something better.

The US is powerful, when it's not broken up. When is, it is laughable. Like two cocks fighting.

 

[warbird2006]

This is why they first and foremost attempt to control the message, especially what the public sees.

Then if that doesn't work they leverage their fans to shoot the messenger... because this is the message.

I don't think your finger-pointing and shit steering really helps.

 

[Lowlight]

Last night I had a revelation

I am gonna spell out a 2 gun fightin rifle program

I have an idea, one to give away and let me replicated

more to follow, sitting delayed on a plane

 

[Lowlight]

I don't think your finger-pointing and shit steering really helps.

Clearly it is, may not help the PRS but it’s opening eyes and changes are happing

change is coming on fast too, go west young man

don’t like leave

 

[Kasey]

Not for the first time. Last PRS match I shot was Franks in Ft. Morgan in like 2015? Drama city, NONE of it Franks fault.

They bitched because Vibbert helped set up a stage with his steel he somehow had an advantage and took the win away.

Some jack wagon from the AMU claimed during the alibi period that he got shorted like 30 points, like a whole section of the match worth.

Then nobody would let Frank talk at the awards and they descended on the prize table like vultures.

PRS = Precision Rifle Stupidity.

Bingo.

Because he's not a douchenozzle.

Lol, my one and only RO experience!