Dang PM, your making me re-think my choice to buy the Vudoo instead of doing one of these builds!
Its looking great!!
DW
Its looking great!!
DW
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Winchester M70
- Thread starter pmclaine
- Start date
Can you elaborate on the Russian lend lease M70's? Like @sandwarrior - this is the first I too have heard of such..
And yeah. Im jealous as fck already sir, I would pay money to shoot the finished product! Things gonna be absolutely awesome. What are you thinking for loads? I'd reckon some Berger 200.20X's or 215 Hybrids loaded to the gills would make for a serious 1500+yd round..
And yeah. Im jealous as fck already sir, I would pay money to shoot the finished product! Things gonna be absolutely awesome. What are you thinking for loads? I'd reckon some Berger 200.20X's or 215 Hybrids loaded to the gills would make for a serious 1500+yd round..
Bang Bang Blat, before being ejected from the Hide for being a Soros plant, was the resident communist.
I was just giving him some shit regarding any rifle he owns being a Russian issue item.
LOL ohh I gotcha hah
I was well aware of his propaganda spreading antics, just didnt put 2 & 2 together..
You know, when you make an inside joke like that...someone else gotta be on the inside to get it.... Just sayin'
You know, when you make an inside joke like that...someone else gotta be on the inside to get it.... Just sayin'
Bang Bang got it.
Been hitting Ebay frequently. Not seeing the particular scope I want.
I have the exact scope I want at home but it's on an '03. I'll swap em out if I have to but I want each rifle to have its own scope.
Liberal?
BBB was a card carrying commie.
Thing was I think he has some good vintage gun info.
I enjoyed his posting. Irritating as hell but he made me think about my side and confirmed for me how wrong his side is.
It wouldn't be correct for the sniper for Vietnam. But the Marines did put the lyman Super Targetspot on these Model 70's for competition in the 50's.
The Lyman SuperTargetspot can be bought pretty reasonable, and I think they are a better scope than the Chinese Unertl copy. I want to say you can pick them up for under $500 if you look around.
My Unertl is out there.
We just havent met yet.
I have options with the iron sights and Im not going to clip slot so if I want to run a Redfield base and Redfield 3-9X, ala a 30-06 Winchester M40 like Gy Hathcock wanted, I can do so.
but my Unertl is out there we just have to meet.
Lol, you sound just like me. I'm the exact same way. I'm still on the hunt for a Mann Niedner rifle that I think is real. I have an original set of blocks and scope as well. I only need a real rifle. The problem is, I have only seen two rifles that I think are real.
But I say the same thing, My Mann Niedner is out there, we just have to meet.
But I say the same thing, My Mann Niedner is out there, we just have to meet.
Mann Niedner? As in Mann Accuracy Device? KraigWY on here has one if thats what ya speak of..Lol, you sound just like me. I'm the exact same way. I'm still on the hunt for a Mann Niedner rifle that I think is real. I have an original set of blocks and scope as well. I only need a real rifle. The problem is, I have only seen two rifles that I think are real.
But I say the same thing, My Mann Niedner is out there, we just have to meet.
Nope a breed of 1903 that had been fitted with a certain scope system just as the USMC was gearing up for WWI
Mann Niedner:
One of these?
Looks to be a Springfield 1903 with a Winchester A5 on it? I've never seen one let alone barely heard of them.
Mann Niedner action:
One of these?
Looks to be a Springfield 1903 with a Winchester A5 on it? I've never seen one let alone barely heard of them.
Mann Niedner action:
It's the scope in the lower right hand corner. The A5 with the different mounts. The Mann Niedner was a conversion on the way the scope was mounted on the m1903 rifle. Franklin Mann invented a tappered style base that mounts a scope on a rifle. It's a wedge design that basically locks without any screws or anything like that. Each peace is a wedge and under recoil they tighten on each other. It's a very secure way to mount a scope.
Franklin Mann and Adolph Niedner both worked together and Niedner used Mann's tappered block design on many rifles he built to mount the scopes. In 1916, Mann Passed away, but Niedner continued to use his design. In early 1917, Adolph Niedner did mount 150 scopes on Marine 1903's in Philadelphia. But it's not for sure 100% he used this tappered base design on the MArine rifles, as Niedner used everyone's design. But it's assumed he probably did use it.
After Niedner was fired from the contract in June 1917, the Marines contacted Winchester, and WRA mounted 500 A5 scopes on rifles for the Marines by late 1917. These rifles used the normal commercial A5 #2 mount and the Springfield Marine Bases produced by WRA. Which placed the A5 scope at the normal 7.2'' spacing, compared to the early WRA design of 6'' spacing. The Springfield Marine bases produced by WRA are almost identical to the John Unertl O&E used on the WWII 1903A1 Unertl snipers. I believe John Unertl copied the WRA springfield Marine bases for the 1903 in the 1930's as they are almost identical and only have minor differences in the way the scopes mount.
The Army in January 1918 Contated WRA and requested the exact same rifles the Marines had received in 1917 off WRA. So the Army shipped rifles to WRA, and WRA mounted the scopes the exact same way they did the Marine rifles. In the end the Army received 900 rifles.
The one M1903 rifle above is one we believe was part of the Marine 500 order or the Army 900 order. There is really no way to say for sure. I personally bleieve it to be Marine because of the serial number and the close proximity of Marine snipers in that serial range. But there is no way to prove it. These rifles are pretty rare as we know of 4 rifles that are complete that still exist. 3 in private hands, and one in Cody museum.
You first start to see the Mann Niedner rifles in photos of the Marines in late 1918. Which they were the regular A5 scopes where the mount was converted to the tappered mount design. And they used a little different plunger and micrometer design.
It is unclear if those ones pictured with the MArines in late 1918, are some of the 150 that Niedner had mounted in early 1917, or they were ones that were starting to be produced at the Philadelphia Depot.
The Marines had ordered a bunch of spare A5 scopes off WRA and started to receive them by summer 1918, and they had atually sent Marines to WRA in 1917 to learn how to mount scopes back at the depot.
The Marines did copy the Mann Tappered block design off Niedner, and made slight changes to the blocks, and called them the Marine Tappered block design. These Marine tappered blocks were produced at the Depot through at least the mid 20's. Even though some Mann Niedner rifles were last built in 1941 to be used for training for the 1st and 2nd Marine Division. Even though those were probably built using recylced parts.
Here is a really good pic of a Mann Niedner A5 sniper in France. I suspect this post the Armistance, but it is undated.
This is the Mann Niedner covnersion of a A5 next to the regular A5 in the #2 WRA mount.
They basically took the WRA #2 mount, and cut the bottom of it off, and then attached the wedge bases. They then just roughly screwed it in from the top and then staked the screws.
They got rid of the grasshopper spring on the commercial A5, and drilled the base for an internal plunger design. They also removed the commerical A5 micrometer knobs and installed a set of easier to read knobs with a pointer that made them sort of click.
This was a pic I took of a comparions between the Mann Niedner conversion (top) and the WRA style (below). The top is just a standard rifle with the Mann Niedner blocks and scope sitting on it. I just wanted to see what it would look like next to each other.
I've only seen two Mann Niedner rifles that I though were real. According to the Marine docs, almost all were broken down for parts and don't exist anymore.
They basically took the WRA #2 mount, and cut the bottom of it off, and then attached the wedge bases. They then just roughly screwed it in from the top and then staked the screws.
They got rid of the grasshopper spring on the commercial A5, and drilled the base for an internal plunger design. They also removed the commerical A5 micrometer knobs and installed a set of easier to read knobs with a pointer that made them sort of click.
This was a pic I took of a comparions between the Mann Niedner conversion (top) and the WRA style (below). The top is just a standard rifle with the Mann Niedner blocks and scope sitting on it. I just wanted to see what it would look like next to each other.
I've only seen two Mann Niedner rifles that I though were real. According to the Marine docs, almost all were broken down for parts and don't exist anymore.
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This is the Winchester design photographed in France in late 1917. The pic is dated at the ARchives at 1917. But it could be possibly taken in Jan 1918.
I do have a pic of this type of rifle too with the Army stateside training. It is the pic of them at the bottom shooting on the range. Which was their intended purpose by the Army, but some of the Army A5's did go to France, as I have the counts of them over there.
This is the Army pic of them being used stateside.
I do have a pic of this type of rifle too with the Army stateside training. It is the pic of them at the bottom shooting on the range. Which was their intended purpose by the Army, but some of the Army A5's did go to France, as I have the counts of them over there.
This is the Army pic of them being used stateside.
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PmClaine, sorry to hijack your thread, but I figured you wouldn't care. You love this stuff as much as I do.
This is actually interesting to me. I've never seen one in this much detail. I think this is it, but taken back in the 20's.
The wedge shape blocks on it, are the Mann Tappered blocks.
Interesting thing is the cartridge looks like a 30-40 Krag not the 30-06. your picture above does not show an action like this and there is enough to see in your pic to see that it isn't.
This was a photo I got online that said it was a Mann-Niedner. But, I honestly do not know. Most of the action pictured looks very different, with the exception of the firing pin knob, from the 1903
This may well be a different Mann-Niedner collaboration as they did do a lot of work together before Mann's death.
This was a photo I got online that said it was a Mann-Niedner. But, I honestly do not know. Most of the action pictured looks very different, with the exception of the firing pin knob, from the 1903
This may well be a different Mann-Niedner collaboration as they did do a lot of work together before Mann's death.
Now I'm not that knowledgeable about commercial Niedner rifles. I know some, but I will be the first to say, I only study Niedner for the US Marines involvement and that is about it.
But the one thing I see mentioned over and over. Niedner converted 1903 receivers to fire .22. It's mentioned everywhere back then, and it makes it sound like these were really good .22 rifles.
I believe the black and white photo I posted is a .22 rifle. As you can even see a .22 shell in the one pic.
I was sort of thinking the receiver you posted i s a .22 as well. And maybe the additional pieces are conversion pieces or other things he produced?
I honestly don't know. But I know it is mentioned everywere when I research back then, how famous that .22 rifle conversion Niedner made was.
But the one thing I see mentioned over and over. Niedner converted 1903 receivers to fire .22. It's mentioned everywhere back then, and it makes it sound like these were really good .22 rifles.
I believe the black and white photo I posted is a .22 rifle. As you can even see a .22 shell in the one pic.
I was sort of thinking the receiver you posted i s a .22 as well. And maybe the additional pieces are conversion pieces or other things he produced?
I honestly don't know. But I know it is mentioned everywere when I research back then, how famous that .22 rifle conversion Niedner made was.
Wow, just found this thread a few days ago ... it is my new second favorite thread on the hide !!! Just the history alone is fabulous !!
I am ready to go back and read it again and take some notes this time !!!
Great job !!
Please dont tell us your first favorite thread was started by Maser....
Kind of bored today and in trying to keep myself from going to the for sales forum and buying shit I decided to send my builder an email for an update.
Hopefully he has some info on progress.
Why wouldn't it be? Haven't you figured out yet that my amazing brain contains such a huge plethora of knowledge that it would put Einstein and Hawking to shame?
Pre64Win lost a young emplyee and they took some time to assist the family.
Family and friends first, Im not needing this rifle ASAP.
but we are back in build mode with some action blueprinting.......
Family and friends first, Im not needing this rifle ASAP.
but we are back in build mode with some action blueprinting.......
Okay I wont be pushing brass out with my cleaning rod. Extraction via the big Mauser claw is intended.....
Ive got a picture somewhere of the jig he uses to do the extractor cut, it looked like a great way to finish it real nice.
I sent him pictures of the USMC extractor cuts made on replacement barrels and they were pretty rough. This loos nicely done.
Come to think of it pmc, we got no updates in a while? What gives?
Added: This is pure candy you are holding back on us....
Added: This is pure candy you are holding back on us....
Contacted him last week he has cut the chamber with a match reamer.
I had sent him some of my reloads that I feed my Garands and 03s with and they were a tad too big for his match reamer.
He has a more generous chamber reamer coming in which is fine by me. This rifle will shoot just fine without the match reamer and making special loads.
Kind of surprised by this as I reload on a Dillon S1050 and hit the sizing die twice. Once to deprime the second time to final size and trim on a rapid trim. The Dillon rapid trim dies are pretty tight, close to small base capacity. I size for the Garand so about .003 under fired size. I have never had a feed issue in the Garand or the bolt 03s.
That must be one tight match chamber die.
This rifle may quickly be surpassed in its arttractiveness. Not like its a more correct prewar in fantastic shape someone might have got his hands on and is looking to do similar to but perhaps I speak out of turn.
I had sent him some of my reloads that I feed my Garands and 03s with and they were a tad too big for his match reamer.
He has a more generous chamber reamer coming in which is fine by me. This rifle will shoot just fine without the match reamer and making special loads.
Kind of surprised by this as I reload on a Dillon S1050 and hit the sizing die twice. Once to deprime the second time to final size and trim on a rapid trim. The Dillon rapid trim dies are pretty tight, close to small base capacity. I size for the Garand so about .003 under fired size. I have never had a feed issue in the Garand or the bolt 03s.
That must be one tight match chamber die.
This rifle may quickly be surpassed in its arttractiveness. Not like its a more correct prewar in fantastic shape someone might have got his hands on and is looking to do similar to but perhaps I speak out of turn.
I will post some pics soon, I have scope blocks, front sight block, barrel, and a Unertl 10X in USMC mounts incoming...thank you for the lead on the parts!
Ohhh, you did good on the Unertl 10X. Now that you have yours tell me your hunting ground so I can go looking.
and before anyone critiques the builder regards the barrel marking.....
If you look back in my build guide there is a picture of a Douglas barrel marked by the Marines in this same manner.
I wanted that "crude" look the Marines came up with after realizing crayon wouldnt last.
If you look back in my build guide there is a picture of a Douglas barrel marked by the Marines in this same manner.
I wanted that "crude" look the Marines came up with after realizing crayon wouldnt last.
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Not a Sniper Version, but this 1949 made Model 70, '06 w/El Paso 4X Weaver can still shoot the Greek surplus M-2 ball.
Looks Great...I really like the sights!! I may have to give some thought to getting a set of those also : )
DW
DW
My M70, it's a post 64, Douglas bbl 30-06 Unertyl scope. Just had the barrel done so I need to coat it.
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