Winchester M70

[sandwarrior]

Awsome post pmc. In spite of the fact you aren't center punching 1" dots at that range, just know, neither are WE!

And BTW, with the rifle at the range, it shows you've been rubbing your wood a lot!...

 

[RTH1800]

Phil,
We can fix that sight issue with a different front block. I have a box of them. Let's figure it out and I will give you whatever you need.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Would def love to see you wring it out accuracy-wise with the irons at multiple different ranges, and/or possibly mount up some sights which are still period-correct while being bit more capable/effective.

Also, any chance you plan to duplicate Hathcock's ideal? Your M70 with Redfield 3-9(IIRC thats his "ideal"?) ??

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Come to think of it, maybe Mr Bart can be helpful in adding to our conversation here..? Let me see if I can drag him on over!

 

[pmclaine]

Phil,
We can fix that sight issue with a different front block. I have a box of them. Let's figure it out and I will give you whatever you need.

Ill measure the height of what is on there now.

Im going to try to get to one hundred yards at some point this week. that will give me a better idea of how high that rear really is.

 

[pmclaine]

Would def love to see you wring it out accuracy-wise with the irons at multiple different ranges, and/or possibly mount up some sights which are still period-correct while being bit more capable/effective.

Also, any chance you plan to duplicate Hathcock's ideal? Your M70 with Redfield 3-9(IIRC thats his "ideal"?) ??

The idea for the irons was 300 max.

I was correctly told ahead of time that a WSH sight would be better suited for my build but I didnt want to cut the wood stock to allow it.

Ill be putting a Unertl on to try out but I really am interested in using a Leupold "Greenie" repro 3-9X. Im shooting one of them on my M40 and love the mil dot reticle utility/simplicity.

 

[sandwarrior]

Would def love to see you wring it out accuracy-wise with the irons at multiple different ranges, and/or possibly mount up some sights which are still period-correct while being bit more capable/effective.

Also, any chance you plan to duplicate Hathcock's ideal? Your M70 with Redfield 3-9(IIRC thats his "ideal"?) ??

Interesting thought coyote, we never really did get the exact lowdown on what Hathcock thought was the best all around rifle. He liked the Win 70, he said, but never differentiated between pre-'64 and post- '63. Ideally, the rifle should be able to adjust to any range as far out as the bullet can hit reliably. Well, in the hot humid Viet Nam, that was a long ways. In the cold winter in Germany, not so far. We needed a better bullet to do that. His longest kill with an -06 was about 1500 yds. Kid with a bike hauling weapons.

 

[pmclaine]

Made it to 100 yards this past weekend...

Shot some Fed Fusion hunter grade 150 grain lead tip to confirm sight settings....

Moved to the Creedmoor 167 Scenar in Lapua cases, match ammo...

I was impressed that 5 shots went into a tight knot and that when I pull shots they actually hit my point of aim. For iron sights I think it does well.

Next Ill be moving to a scope.

I found the Match rounds to be a bit hard to extract though. Im having the builder recheck the chamber it might be a bit too tight.

 

[RTH1800]

Lapua brass can have a thick neck which will build pressure at times. Might need to mic neck and view chamber specs.

 

[pmclaine]

Lapua brass can have a thick neck which will build pressure at times. Might need to mic neck and view chamber specs.

Good to know.

Sent some brass with the rifle to check the cut. Justin acknowledges he cuts his chambers match tight but Id expect common commercial ammo would chamber.

For a quick check I used an RCBS precision mic on some ammo to check headspace. 0 on the mic is supposed to be SAAMI spec but I have not checked its accuracy with a gage.....anyway...

My reloads that would not chamber were about +.0015 from SAAMI.

Fed Fusion, Hornady M1 178 AMAX Match and Creedmoor Match 167 Scenar all fell within -.001 / -.002 of SAAMI.

All the factory loads chambered fine. My reloads wont chamber.

I fired the Fed Fusion and it fires/extracts fine.

When I fired the Lapua it chambered with slight stiffness on the bolt, fired, but only allowed the bolt to raise to 90 degrees than stopped.

Those necks may be the culprit. Ill mic em.

 

[RTH1800]

You can get a quick check by simply inserting a bullet in the fired case. If you get resistance it’s lilely due to tight neck.

 

[sandwarrior]

If you have a stiff round to chamber, extract it and see where it's shiny if you can.

 

[Bart B.]

Come to think of it, maybe Mr Bart can be helpful in adding to our conversation here..? Let me see if I can drag him on over!

Ok, here I am.

Never was a sniper when in the US Navy, but the SEAL teams asked for me to get transferred to them in 1970. I shot rifle matches (small arms marksmanship) with some and they new all about me. I then managed a group of instructors for shipboard large arms marksmanship (big guns and guided missiles) at a fleet training command. My detailer in the Pentagon wouldn't release me to be a SEAL in Vietnam.

What might I do to help out? Reloading tools and techniques issues?

 

[pmclaine]

My builder did some analysis on a few rounds of ammo I sent him.

My reloads wont even chamber. The brass is on its fourth firing and it appears the Dillon dies, with their chamfered bottoms may not squeeze the case base enough for a tight match chamber.

Whats more distressing is that factory made match ammo (Creedmoor Sports 167 gran Lapua scenars in new Lapua 30-06 brass will chamber and fire but it requires hard palming the bolt open to extract/eject.

This is the neat analysis my builder did.

One picture shows the area where my brass is bowed out

One of my 168 Nosler CC reloads painted with marking fluid indicates the area of tightness. All looks well and good at the shoulder but just up from the base things get tight...

The builder took measurements off some rounds I sent him. The Federal 150 grn factory loads chamber/fire/extract fine. Creedmoor (factory, not a reload) chambers/fires but is very difficult to extract. My 168 Noslers only let the bolt close halfway before the handle comes to a stop.

The data shows my ammo doesnt compare unfavorably to the Creedmoor stuff which is very good ammo and shot well in this gun.

Im willing to add a Redding die after my Dillon size die and see if I can make my reloads a little tighter at Area C.

Still though I need this rifle to chamber/fire/extract a factory offering such as the CMP Lapua offering. Im buying a few hundred rounds of the Lapua match and those cases will be dedicated as reloads for this rifle.

My other 30-06 brass will be used in my Garand/Springfield 03s which after 70 years of service may have more generous chambers.

 

[RTH1800]

Thank you for the update!

 

[pmclaine]

Thank you for the update!

Got some 4895 reloads in FA match brass I want to try when I get the laser back......

 

[Bart B.]

It's my opinion that if new cases are hard to eject after first firing, the problem lies in the bolt dimensions. Way out of square bolt faces, for example.

Case heads are not squared up when resized and can be hard to chamber again.

Such cases won't shoot bullets as accurate; test groups will enlarge up to 3/4th MOA compared to first firing results. More so in extreme situations.

 

[Defender3]

It's my opinion that if new cases are hard to eject after first firing, the problem lies in the bolt dimensions. Way out of square bolt faces, for example.

Case heads are not squared up when resized and can be hard to chamber again.

Such cases won't shoot bullets as accurate; test groups will enlarge up to 3/4th MOA compared to first firing results. More so in extreme situations.

Would that also be the case for rounds with pressure issues, or rounds fired suppressed?

 

[pmclaine]

The builder used another reamer on it that is not so much under SAAMI spec and he gave it another dose of fine polish.

I hope that gets the Lapuas shooting 100 percent.

Im going to correct my reloads - make them less Garand ready more bolt gun suitable.

That Douglas barrel is going to put the bullets where they need to go if I can hold it.

 

[RTH1800]

With the detail this builder put into the project the bolt face will be square now. Might not help the old brass but sure will help the new stuff.

 

[pmclaine]

The builder builds much more complex things on his day job.

Im pretty confident squaring a bolt face wasnt going to foul his anchor.

 

[Bart B.]

Would that also be the case for rounds with pressure issues, or rounds fired suppressed?

Loads at SAAMI spec max pressure through loads with up to about 10% less powder typically push case heads against bolt faces. A load with 9% less won't flatten but about 10% of the head to the bolt face.

Charges more than 10% reduced usually don't push case heads to the bolt face. Case headspace is typically less after firing than before. Firing pin's impact sets the case shoulder back a couple thousandths or more; I've seen as much as .006".

 

[deltawiskey]

I've been following this closely, thanks for the update! Can't wait to see the next range report!!
DW

 

[ShooterwithNoName]

That reminds me I need to get some marking dye. pmclaine, nice pics and info on that brass. You can see pretty clear with the dye where its sticking. Great thread, I even broke out my old model 70 a week ago and shot a few groups. Great rifles. Hope you get your brass sizing lined out.

 

[pmclaine]

Builder gets credit for the analysis.

Im having an issue and he is standing behind his build.

All the tech stuff is his big brain.

 

[Flint62a1]

What started out as this;

Now looks like this;

Thanks to Justin at pre64win.com. Inletted, pillar bedded, and coated the action. Today was the first chance I had to shoot it.
and it shoots!

the first is 175 sierras LCMatch brass and I4895, the second is 168's 4064 and Win brass

 

[deltawiskey]

What started out as this;

Now looks like this;

Thanks to Justin at pre64win.com. Inletted, pillar bedded, and coated the action. Today was the first chance I had to shoot it.
and it shoots!

the first is 175 sierras LCMatch brass and I4895, the second is 168's 4064 and Win brass

Did you mean to have pictures in your post? I don't see any...
DW

 

[Flint62a1]

Did you mean to have pictures in your post? I don't see any...
DW

Really? I give up. On my laptop I see them clear as day. I don't get it.

maybe someone can tell me what I'm doing wrong? images are on Imgur. I click on the bbc link that says message boards and forums, the paste it into the post. I just looked at the post on my phone and sure enough no images......…..

 

[Defender3]

Really? I give up. On my laptop I see them clear as day. I don't get it.

Nothing there. Even when I quote your post, there is no code for pictures or image references.

 

[Flint62a1]

maybe this will work

 

[pmclaine]

Those pics look mighty fine.

What are you using for ammo?

Other details barrel maker etc.

Thank you for posting.

In some ways I think the Unertl is detrimental to grouping. A case of too much information.

With the irons less chance Im going to "jerk" the trigger as my crosshairs land on the POA.

Aperture sights give minimal information and allow less feedback they just seem to work for me.

but......

I will be putting a 10X Unertl on my rifle when its back in my grubby little hands.


Edit add - Saw your ammo recipe. Care to be more specific, perhaps PM if you are concerned with a general post.

 

[deltawiskey]

Oh Hell Yeah! Awesome pictures!!
DW

 

[Flint62a1]

Thank you.

Justin at pre64win did a great job with it.
The ammo :
first pic, LC match brass fed 210 47.4 gr IMR 4895 175 sierra
second Win brass IMR 4064 48.7 gr fed 210 and 168 sierra. all shot at 100 yards.
Douglas barrel 1-10 24" same specs as the M70 sniper rifles of Viet Nam.
It's a post 64 because that's what I had, inletted into a pre 64 stock. A friend that was working on his own M70 project gave me the stock.
The scope is a 14x and yes there is a definite learning curve when shooting this scope/gun combination. All my target rifles have either an adjustable comb or I build the comb up to get a good cheek weld. That doesn't happen with this rifle.
So, I guess that means more range time! Afterall one must learn to properly shoot ones rifle!

 

[pmclaine]

Im throwing a Triad stock pack on mine for cheek weld.

I know they didnt have them in Nam but if they were available they would have.

I at least bought the olive drab one.

 

[Flint62a1]

Im throwing a Triad stock pack on mine for cheek weld.

I know they didnt have them in Nam but if they were available they would have.

I at least bought the olive drab one.

The only rifle that's worse than this is my K98 sniper. It's practically a chin weld to shoot.
I'd love to build up the cheekpiece but I want to keep it as clean as possible. Like I said, just means more range time!!! poor me hahaha

 

[pmclaine]

The only rifle that's worse than this is my K98 sniper. It's practically a chin weld to shoot.
I'd love to build up the cheekpiece but I want to keep it as clean as possible. Like I said, just means more range time!!! poor me hahaha

My M1941 Springfield with 10X Unertl has similar lines on the cheek end of the stock. It can be done, its just not ideal.

Eventually Im going to throw a Leupold 3-9X repro of an green M40 scope on the Winchester with a Redfield base.

Based on this image I thinks its WCWHD....

I get nervous with the Unertl as it strikes me as "fragile". The Leupold has a mil dot reticle, Ill just get my hundred yard zero and do holdovers. Hoping to make it a woods gun for the rare occasions I go out to a friends land and walk his land.

 

[Flint62a1]

My M1941 Springfield with 10X Unertl has similar lines on the cheek end of the stock. It can be done, its just not ideal.

Eventually Im going to throw a Leupold 3-9X repro of an green M40 scope on the Winchester with a Redfield base.

Based on this image I thinks its WCWHD....

View attachment 6961177


I get nervous with the Unertl as it strikes me as "fragile". The Leupold has a mil dot reticle, Ill just get my hundred yard zero and do holdovers.
Hoping to make it a woods gun for the rare occasions I go out to a friends land and walk his land.

That sounds like a great idea, I would love to take this rifle to my deer stand but yea it will need different glass.
Have to keep my eyes open for one of those leupolds
Next summer I fully intend to shoot it with the Unertyl in an F class match
That should be interesting

 

[Bart B.]

In some ways I think the Unertl is detrimental to grouping.

Unertl, Lyman, Fecker, Litchert and DiSimone target scopes were always detrimental to (tiny) grouping. Their weight on the barrel changed the muzzle axis vibration frequencies and directions. If they were pulled back then twisted back to the same position for every shot, that helped. If not, barrel vibrations while bullets were going through it varied directed them in different directions upon exit.

Sometimes rifle accuracy was better without the scope.

When good internally adjusted scopes were mounted on receivers starting in the 1970's, better accuracy was possible.

 

[Flint62a1]

Unertl, Lyman, Fecker, Litchert and DiSimone target scopes were always detrimental to (tiny) grouping. Their weight on the barrel changed the muzzle axis vibration frequencies and directions. If they were pulled back then twisted back to the same position for every shot, that helped. If not, barrel vibrations while bullets were going through it varied directed them in different directions upon exit.

Sometimes rifle accuracy was better without the scope.

When good internally adjusted scopes were mounted on receivers starting in the 1970's, better accuracy was possible.

They can be a pain, but these scopes had been used for years in long range, smallbore, and benchrest shoots. In that time there were quite a few records set.
No, they are no match for the glass out there today.
Just my 2 cents

 

[Bart B.]

DiSimone scopes had the best optics. Al, himself, told me American Optical made the lenses to his specs but decided he couldn't improve over the Unertl mounts he used.

I borrowed one, a 1.5" 20X, for a weekend of 1000 yard matches and its images were easily better than my Unertl with the same numbers.

 

[sandwarrior]

PMC,

Just a thought on your reloading issue. With the tight chamber and the bow where you show it, I've come across something very similar. I'm using small base dies for my .308, which isn't good unless you need them. In my case I was noticing the mouth of the die was so tight it was pushing a wave, just like yours down the sides of the cases.

I backed the dies off to where they only neck size halfway down the neck. It's not optimal, but the cases fit. I was finding that anywhere in between full "cam-over" and where I have them at now for neck sizing, the cases would not re-chamber in the rifle. I reduced the loads even more to prevent ANY brass stretch with the neck sizing, and that seems to be working. It's been a pain in the ass ever since I started with this rifle. Probably more the dies....

 

[deltawiskey]

PMC,

Just a thought on your reloading issue. With the tight chamber and the bow where you show it, I've come across something very similar. I'm using small base dies for my .308, which isn't good unless you need them. In my case I was noticing the mouth of the die was so tight it was pushing a wave, just like yours down the sides of the cases.

I backed the dies off to where they only neck size halfway down the neck. It's not optimal, but the cases fit. I was finding that anywhere in between full "cam-over" and where I have them at now for neck sizing, the cases would not re-chamber in the rifle. I reduced the loads even more to prevent ANY brass stretch with the neck sizing, and that seems to be working. It's been a pain in the ass ever since I started with this rifle. Probably more the dies....

What dies are you using? Sounds like some I want to stay away from...
DW

 

[sandwarrior]

What dies are you using? Sounds like some I want to stay away from...
DW

Hornady American. .308 and .223 are small base as there are so many semi-auto's out there and range brass is what a lot of people pick up. They might not be "small base" as I stated, but I've never had anything but a small base kind of die push a wave of brass in front of the mouth of the die.

 

[Holland375]

I am so lucky, I bought a pre 64 stamped 220 swift that was rebored and recut to 270 for the grand price of 300. I gave it to my son and I am rebuilding it into a 6.5. It was a steal.

 

[sandwarrior]

I am so lucky, I bought a pre 64 stamped 220 swift that was rebored and recut to 270 for the grand price of 300. I gave it to my son and I am rebuilding it into a 6.5. It was a steal.

Swede? Or, Creed?

 

[LG65CM]

Yes you are and I am jealous! I owned a post-'64 Mod 70 in 264 WM and loved that rifle. Good shooter, and I miss it in every way except the recoil. Congratulations and good luck with the build.

 

[RTH1800]

Don’t fear the Unertl. They are great scopes and accuracy can be quite good by any standards. Not nearly as fragile as most seem to think.

Below are some groups fired with my Win 52 and 6x Unertl.

 

[RTH1800]

First group is 50 yards. Second is 100 yards.
I sight it "squirrel eye high at 50 yards.
The last picture is just me checking my sight settings to 200 yards.
A Unertl in good repair will dial right with a S&B of today for repeatability and accuracy.
If you can get to view the bottom of the photo with the squirrels note they are all headshot and most if not all in eye. That Unertl/52 combo has killed over 1000 squirrels in my hands and never shot one anywhere but head. Inside 70 yards almost all shot in eye.
Don't doubt the Unertl!

 

[sandwarrior]

First group is 50 yards. Second is 100 yards.
I sight it "squirrel eye high at 50 yards.
The last picture is just me checking my sight settings to 200 yards.
A Unertl in good repair will dial right with a S&B of today for repeatability and accuracy.
If you can get to view the bottom of the photo with the squirrels note they are all headshot and most if not all in eye. That Unertl/52 combo has killed over 1000 squirrels in my hands and never shot one anywhere but head. Inside 70 yards almost all shot in eye.
Don't doubt the Unertl!

Did you kill that zebra with it too...?

Nice rifle and nice shootin' rth1800!

 

[RTH1800]

Thanks! No on the Zebra and .22 LR. Shot it with a .375 Mag Mauser and a 3 power Unertl Falcon oddly enough.