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Winchester M70
- Thread starter pmclaine
- Start date
I wish I could find a bull gun version of the M70 in 30-06. A commercial one was used by Capt Brophy in Korea back in 1952, outfitted with a large objective Unertl 10X scope. The Bull gun version had a 28" long barrel with a muzzle diameter of 0.89" at the muzzle. It was a heavy beast.
I suspect it was probably the first time a US sniper rifle was used effectively/repeatedly at 1,000 yards under combat conditions. I'd like to build a replica of it, as seen in Peter Senich's book, The Complete Book of U.S. Sniping (See attached).
I suspect it was probably the first time a US sniper rifle was used effectively/repeatedly at 1,000 yards under combat conditions. I'd like to build a replica of it, as seen in Peter Senich's book, The Complete Book of U.S. Sniping (See attached).
Attachments
I recently sold a 3 digit SN '06 bull gun. It was cataloged as Snipers Match rifle. Integral front sight, trigger marked with the word Target. Lyman 48 rear and Unertl 8X. It had a standard hunting stock not the Marksman stock.
Its a good thing I didn't see that for sale, sounds like it would have been a "must have"... : )
Update....
Mounted the Unertl went to the range and zeroed in. I used some standard Federal 150 grain hunting ckass ammo to get on paper than moved to Creedmoor Sports 167 grain Scenars in Lapua Brass to refine zero. Rifle shoots extremely well but I was still getting the bolt to stop at half way open which requires I break position to give a couple hand slaps to open the bolt the rest of the way.
Better than it was when I first fired the ammo but still not ideal.
This past weekend I took 6 flavors of ammo out to see how things would work out....
First the porn....it is a classic looking rifle.....
With the flash used the color of the stock is better represented. love that red hue......
Ammo used - Winchester 150 grain hunting type, American Eagle Fed 150 grain, a trusted shooters reloads, Hornady 168 grain AMAX Match, Lot 1 Lapua 167 Scenar Match (FGMM primers), Lot 2 Lapua 167 Scenar Match (brass primers)....
All were 5 shots. That Lapua Lot 1 shoots excellent but the problems with bolt lift are the drawback.
Im confident the builder chambered it correctly, I mean its like drilling a hole to a set depth, not like building a commercial airliner or something difficult.
Surprised though because I think that Creedmoor ammo is highly regarded in the vintage sniper events and I havent heard of issues before.
I will probably fire form the 200 rounds of Lapua brass and when I reload 30-06 the brass will be sized specific to this gun. The issue as depicted in this illustration seems to be the bottom 1/2 inch of case head or so, dimension "C". Hoping a regular die will squeeze that without having to use small base.
Mounted the Unertl went to the range and zeroed in. I used some standard Federal 150 grain hunting ckass ammo to get on paper than moved to Creedmoor Sports 167 grain Scenars in Lapua Brass to refine zero. Rifle shoots extremely well but I was still getting the bolt to stop at half way open which requires I break position to give a couple hand slaps to open the bolt the rest of the way.
Better than it was when I first fired the ammo but still not ideal.
This past weekend I took 6 flavors of ammo out to see how things would work out....
First the porn....it is a classic looking rifle.....
With the flash used the color of the stock is better represented. love that red hue......
Ammo used - Winchester 150 grain hunting type, American Eagle Fed 150 grain, a trusted shooters reloads, Hornady 168 grain AMAX Match, Lot 1 Lapua 167 Scenar Match (FGMM primers), Lot 2 Lapua 167 Scenar Match (brass primers)....
All were 5 shots. That Lapua Lot 1 shoots excellent but the problems with bolt lift are the drawback.
Im confident the builder chambered it correctly, I mean its like drilling a hole to a set depth, not like building a commercial airliner or something difficult.
Surprised though because I think that Creedmoor ammo is highly regarded in the vintage sniper events and I havent heard of issues before.
I will probably fire form the 200 rounds of Lapua brass and when I reload 30-06 the brass will be sized specific to this gun. The issue as depicted in this illustration seems to be the bottom 1/2 inch of case head or so, dimension "C". Hoping a regular die will squeeze that without having to use small base.
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Phil,
Those are some pretty wild variations on your number chart! Is there really .010" difference in rim to shoulder in the Lapua brass? I mean that is a helluva lot of brass to squeeze down when chambering.
In any case, those are some pretty nice groups!
Those are some pretty wild variations on your number chart! Is there really .010" difference in rim to shoulder in the Lapua brass? I mean that is a helluva lot of brass to squeeze down when chambering.
In any case, those are some pretty nice groups!
The issue is in dimension "C" based on testing done with marking die and where the "rub" is.
My reloads wont even chamber. I get the bolt about halfway closed. With the Lapua brass it chambers fine.
Who says .0005 wont make a difference.
Im guessing on firing the Lapua brass blows out just enough above .4640 to make it stick during extraction.
Im wondering if the issue is a result of my Progressive Dillon dies.
The bore of the die is kind of "magwelled" to assist brass feeding into the die.
Perhaps my die is missing just a hair of case that needs to be sized in this area......
I load on an S1050 and sizing is a function performed when trimming. Unsure what Creedmoor sports loads there ammo on.
I think the next time I process 30-06 I will run a Redding 30-06 die with no chamfer at the opening.
Just have to determine if I should run the Redding prior to the Dillon trim/size die or after?
I originally thought after but Im wondering if the second size die will throw off the consistency of what the trim/size die produced?
My reloads wont even chamber. I get the bolt about halfway closed. With the Lapua brass it chambers fine.
Who says .0005 wont make a difference.
Im guessing on firing the Lapua brass blows out just enough above .4640 to make it stick during extraction.
Im wondering if the issue is a result of my Progressive Dillon dies.
The bore of the die is kind of "magwelled" to assist brass feeding into the die.
Perhaps my die is missing just a hair of case that needs to be sized in this area......
I load on an S1050 and sizing is a function performed when trimming. Unsure what Creedmoor sports loads there ammo on.
I think the next time I process 30-06 I will run a Redding 30-06 die with no chamfer at the opening.
Just have to determine if I should run the Redding prior to the Dillon trim/size die or after?
I originally thought after but Im wondering if the second size die will throw off the consistency of what the trim/size die produced?
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How are "Body" and "FL" size dies different?
Truth be told I thought Dillon trim dies were "small base", they oversize necks requiring a turning mandrel to make things right.
Copied from the Brownells site:
"Body Dies are designed to full length resize the case body, bump the shoulder position for proper chambering, but not size the neck at all. They are made without internal parts and are intended for resizing cases which have become increasingly difficult to chamber after repeated firing. After using a body die, the case should be run through the neck die to achieve proper neck tension. Sold separately or as part of a set."
I've found the best way to use a body die is to start with the die in a high position in the press then progressively turn it down while checking the brass for chambering ease in the rifle. If you set the die to contact the shellholder you run the risk of setting the shoulder back to far, I've done that. Use about 5 fired cases to set up the die, just using one case can give a false setting.
When you get a case to the point it chambers with with ease, give the die a tiny, tiny bit more down turn and set it. Measure headspace, should be GTG.
Use lots of lube.
Edit. I have a '06 Redding body die in the toolbox. No longer have one in the stable, if you'd like to try it, send a PM. I'll drop in the mail.
"Body Dies are designed to full length resize the case body, bump the shoulder position for proper chambering, but not size the neck at all. They are made without internal parts and are intended for resizing cases which have become increasingly difficult to chamber after repeated firing. After using a body die, the case should be run through the neck die to achieve proper neck tension. Sold separately or as part of a set."
I've found the best way to use a body die is to start with the die in a high position in the press then progressively turn it down while checking the brass for chambering ease in the rifle. If you set the die to contact the shellholder you run the risk of setting the shoulder back to far, I've done that. Use about 5 fired cases to set up the die, just using one case can give a false setting.
When you get a case to the point it chambers with with ease, give the die a tiny, tiny bit more down turn and set it. Measure headspace, should be GTG.
Use lots of lube.
Edit. I have a '06 Redding body die in the toolbox. No longer have one in the stable, if you'd like to try it, send a PM. I'll drop in the mail.
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It's odd that virgin Creedmoor ammo does this. I don't recall, do you have the reamer print and what brass it was cut for? I suspect he cut a very tight match chamber ( my guy does this) and the Lapua is a touch oversized for the chamber. If that's the case, even small basing may not eliminate the extraction tightness.
Did you see any pressure? I might try seating the virgin Creedmoor .020" deeper and see if the expansion doesn't go away.
Did you see any pressure? I might try seating the virgin Creedmoor .020" deeper and see if the expansion doesn't go away.
@pmclaine ,
Just how bad u want to solve this issue ?
I have "several" model 70's. My "twin" to yours is a 1956 mfg, original...
I have two more twin lowers, to yours, a 57 and a 63, both Douglas #7 barrelled, with a match cut reamer by Cliff (CT) Huston from Tampa Fl. I doubt anybody here knows Cliff, he'd be 95 or so today if he was still with us. He was one of the 70 gurus back when.
And I have dealt with what u describe, in mind numbing detail.
If it were me..... I'd find out if the builder knows how to do a cerro-safe chamber casting.... I'd pull the barrel and cast the chamber, and compare the numbers with them in your chart.
Answer will be real clear then.
Since I'm on a dumbass smart phone, and cant do double screens, this will run into a couple of posts.
But, your chart has some things needing a really hard look, and you need some original match and ball ammo... more answers will get glaringly clear when you fire that ammo. B4 you ever size it.
My experience with Dillon trim dies is pretty much the same as yours and it was 75% of my problem. Now, I only use Dillon trim dies for belt fed mg ammo. B4 it's over, you might end up stopping using them, I did...
More follows.
Just how bad u want to solve this issue ?
I have "several" model 70's. My "twin" to yours is a 1956 mfg, original...
I have two more twin lowers, to yours, a 57 and a 63, both Douglas #7 barrelled, with a match cut reamer by Cliff (CT) Huston from Tampa Fl. I doubt anybody here knows Cliff, he'd be 95 or so today if he was still with us. He was one of the 70 gurus back when.
And I have dealt with what u describe, in mind numbing detail.
If it were me..... I'd find out if the builder knows how to do a cerro-safe chamber casting.... I'd pull the barrel and cast the chamber, and compare the numbers with them in your chart.
Answer will be real clear then.
Since I'm on a dumbass smart phone, and cant do double screens, this will run into a couple of posts.
But, your chart has some things needing a really hard look, and you need some original match and ball ammo... more answers will get glaringly clear when you fire that ammo. B4 you ever size it.
My experience with Dillon trim dies is pretty much the same as yours and it was 75% of my problem. Now, I only use Dillon trim dies for belt fed mg ammo. B4 it's over, you might end up stopping using them, I did...
More follows.
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Please give us the A,B,C, measurement specific to each brass, new (1), fired (2), and resized in Dillon (3), and brass sized only in Redding (4).
You will know then btw 1 and 2, the chamber expansion and how much it needs to be resized. And btw 3 and 4, you will know if the die is sizing C where it needs to.
B and C being off size to your actual chamber dimension is your bolt bump issue.
You will know then btw 1 and 2, the chamber expansion and how much it needs to be resized. And btw 3 and 4, you will know if the die is sizing C where it needs to.
B and C being off size to your actual chamber dimension is your bolt bump issue.
Extreme growth in any brass from new to fired in B is really soft brass, when with the same load and other brass, the growth isnt notable.
That would be a brass issue, not chamber, not sizing.
The pre64 70 rear of chamber to face of bolt set up allows for more expansion there (B) than the enclosed bolt head of a 700.
That would be a brass issue, not chamber, not sizing.
The pre64 70 rear of chamber to face of bolt set up allows for more expansion there (B) than the enclosed bolt head of a 700.
3/31/2019
Creedmoor manufactured 167 Scenars, Lapua brass, match ammo at 100 yards.....
Creedmoor manufactured 167 Scenars, Lapua brass, match ammo at 100 yards.....
It seems almost a shame to take your "Hathcock Tribute" rifle apart so's a 1903 can get it. Especially when it shoots that good! ?
I want it to be more practical.
With a mil dot reticle 3-9X it will be more robust and ill have some through the scope reference for holds.
I think Hathcock at one point opined his ideal sniper rifle would have been the 30-06 Model 70 with the Redfield scope from the M40.
PWS presented him a rifle in that configuration set in a McMillan smear stock. The photo of him with it is pretty well known.
The Unertl 10X is a great scope.
It just gives me the heebie jeebies Im going to break it as I stuff it into the rifle bag or something.
Phil,
I see a lot of folks worried about the external adjustment scopes durability.
They are actually tougher than they look. I have actually carried them horseback in a saddle scabbard with no issues.
This on a magnum Mauser 300 H&H magnum and 8x Unertl.
Those set ups are better than folks give them credit for. They just look fragile and also look complex, which they are not.
I see a lot of folks worried about the external adjustment scopes durability.
They are actually tougher than they look. I have actually carried them horseback in a saddle scabbard with no issues.
This on a magnum Mauser 300 H&H magnum and 8x Unertl.
Those set ups are better than folks give them credit for. They just look fragile and also look complex, which they are not.
Agreed.
The 8X USMC ones have been through 3 wars (granted few saw action) and handling by people that break rocks through mishandling them.
I intended this to be a more "active" rifle. Not that I am ever very active with my rifles but if I need one this could be it.
I have a fresh prewar C stock that Im on the slow hunt to find a 1.4m or 1.5m Serial Number 03 for dropping in to and building another 03 sniper.
Phil,
Glad to see it’s shooting well, and hope this means that Lapua brass is ejecting ok. We’ve got another of these USMC snipers in work and I’ve got to say, I’ve become pretty fond of them.
It will be ready for the range next week. I hope it shoots as well as yours!
More pics HERE
Justin
Glad to see it’s shooting well, and hope this means that Lapua brass is ejecting ok. We’ve got another of these USMC snipers in work and I’ve got to say, I’ve become pretty fond of them.
It will be ready for the range next week. I hope it shoots as well as yours!
More pics HERE
Justin
Hey Justin,
Hope you are well. I imagine you have been busy and Ive been thinking its a tough time for you. Again, I hope all is well.
Im shooting "Lot 2" of the Lapua ammo. Still requires I get over the gun and hand slap the bolt open.
Ill be reloading 30-06 soon and will play with my size die to fit the match chamber.
I know someone is going to experience a Delta change in personal happiness when he gets his hand on that rifle.
Been checking your site
https://pre64win.com/
and Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/pre64win/
How fantastic was it for you to verify Model 70 Serial Number 6?
Great looking Rifle! Please follow up with some pictures of it completed and a range report ; )
DW
I bought one of those Malcolm 8X Unertyl repros. After a few weeks of bench shooting, I finally got down on the floor with it. It was an education to say the least. I had to move the scope to the rear of the front block. Trouble was I was climbing up on the rifle to see thru the scope. I found out that as long as I do my part she'll shoot. These rifles were not the best for prone shooting, at least in this configuration. I suppose this means I'll have to spend more time at the range to make this work....oh darn
This is 168 sierras and 4064, you can see what getting sloppy on head position will do:
This is 175 sierras and I4895, this will shoot one inch normally, but get a little sloppy and...….
This is 168 sierras and 4064, you can see what getting sloppy on head position will do:
This is 175 sierras and I4895, this will shoot one inch normally, but get a little sloppy and...….
Nice rifle. I'm getting some serious model 70 gas! There's just something about blued steel and walnut. Thinking of building a heavy barreled '06 with a marksman style stock.
The Malcolm scope is a bit shorter than the Unertl Combination Target.
They didnt copy the right scope.
Yours looks to be shooting fine.
It's
I wanted to go as close to the original rifles as I could, so I bought the Malcolm. It's not a bad scope optics wise, it's definitely shorter than my 14X unertyl. It's not so much the scope as it is the total lack of a cheekweld that makes it interesting to shoot!
Can't wait to stretch it out and bang steel at 600 yards.
My triad pack certainly helped with the cheek weld.
I know Carlos didnt have one but he didnt have the chance.
The Malcolm scopes are reported to be clear. Really the big complaint about them seems to concern some soft base mount screws and thats it.
I think the optics are really very good. The adjustment knobs leave alot to be desired
@deltawiskey 's USMC Sniper Tribute rifle is complete. Some glamour shots below. A full set of photos can be found HERE
Love the legit early features.
Open up that rear scope stop a bit more to allow free travel.
My 30-06 will float the scope a good 3/4 inch or so.
Give it lots of room in case you forget to pull back into battery.
I don't think it would be good for the Life of the crosshairs to meet the stop and come to an abrupt end of motion.
Open up that rear scope stop a bit more to allow free travel.
My 30-06 will float the scope a good 3/4 inch or so.
Give it lots of room in case you forget to pull back into battery.
I don't think it would be good for the Life of the crosshairs to meet the stop and come to an abrupt end of motion.
Really? Do expound please.......pictures being worth 1000 words.
Perhaps in PM if it be anything I can't resist.
I'll save these guys the trouble of thinking they may buy it.
Those sound like some great acquisitions!! I think my M40 series obsession is finally about satisfied, I'm starting in on Model 70's now... I've been looking at a lot of the target rifles on G.B.
DW
That's a gorgeous rifle...hope she shoots as good as she looks!
DW
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