WTF! This is apparently why I don't clean rifles...

[TheGerman]

Had started to see my 455 throwing shots when I was 100000% sure the reticle didn't move anywhere near where the shot ended up. I actually have no idea how many rounds are on the 455, its been that long since I've cleaned it. Groups were opening, flyers were appearing, figure its time.

Cleaned it with just some Hoppes 9, chamber guide, brush, patched it until they came out relatively clean. Scrubbed the bolt face, mopped out the chamber, oiled the bolt again and done.

Took it out today and I knew the first 1/2-full box would be iffy because the barrel needing to be seasoned. Decided to put the MagnetoSpeed on the barrel for the first 50 to get more chrono data and not worry about accuracy. Noticed 2 things right off the bat:

1 - The velocity it was showing was on average 60fps lower at first than the same lot, shot from the same gun in the same temperature. It did eventually come up to around 1045, but was initially hovering constantly at 1010; last chrono data of 50 shots showed an average of 1079 prior to the cleaning.

2 - I was vertical stringing the entire time from start to finish. After one full box of the Center X lot I had been shooting a lot of before cleaning and still making every 5 shot group look like an I, I changed to Wolf Match Extra for another 50 rounds and got the exact same result. If there was a competition to draw the letter I with your groups, I would have won.

I know the 22's need some time to settle after a cleaning. For some reason I always thought mine did within 50 rounds. I'm at over 150 and it still shoots like absolute garbage; its consistent but the vertical stringing is insane. Just to make sure I wasn't doing anything insane, shot a Mk12 in between and everything was great. Went back to the 455 and it was the letter I again.

Give it more time to settle?
Barrel is fucked/starting to be shot out?
Is it lead buildup? Doubtful as its a Lilja barrel but I dont have a bore scope so no idea how to verify if it is/isnt; if so, how do you get the lead out?
Something else? Only thing I was going to try was to re-torque the action screws.

 

[quickdraw]

Check action torque and scrub the chamber and throat with a nylon brush a bunch to make sure you don't have a carbon ring issue.

 

[TheGerman]

Check action torque and scrub the chamber and throat with a nylon brush a bunch to make sure you don't have a carbon ring issue.

I did the torque already and put a brush down the chamber/throat tonight.

How much is enough/too much scrubbing? And do you use any solvent for it, or just the brush? Any specific reason on the nylon brush?

 

[OG10]

Nylon brushes won'thurt anything, Double check everything , from top to bottom scope rings ,bases, and if you have another scope try swapping it out (had a similsr issue once before and the scope was the culprit) let us know what you find out.

 

[Tucker301]

Long shot, but I store my ammo in a conditioned space, so in summer it's considerably cooler than outdoor ambient. When I go out to shoot if I don't let it come up to temp first it'll string as the ammo warms up.

Plus one on the carbon ring.

 

[Starbuck]

I did the torque already and put a brush down the chamber/throat tonight.

How much is enough/too much scrubbing? And do you use any solvent for it, or just the brush? Any specific reason on the nylon brush?

Steve Boelter from Anschutz North America recommends JB paste and Kroil in the chamber and a few inches forward to deal with the carbon ring. I think many in the rimfire BR community uses this combo as well. I use the "aggressive" VFG pellets. Not sure about why nylon.

Steve's rimfire cleaning article is archived here:

http://www.ssvtexel.nl/index.cfm?act=files.download&ui=C5C9D865-2200-0A21-B5F5CF897974784F

Grab a beer, it's 45 pages!

 

[ZG47A]

Sounds mechanical to me, i.e. not the ammunition.

 

[sht4brnz]

https://www.boretech.com/products/btck-40002
This works well for me.

 

[quickdraw]

I did the torque already and put a brush down the chamber/throat tonight.

How much is enough/too much scrubbing? And do you use any solvent for it, or just the brush? Any specific reason on the nylon brush?

Read that article, it explains the carbon ring well. I use Boretech (or any GOOD carbon cleaner) and scrub the chamber and immediately ahead of it with 10-12 passes with a nylon brush and then VFG pellets or dry patch over the nylon bruush until the muzzle is clean. I also follow his method for the bore as well or a slight variation, it's a feel thing. If everything was good before you cleaned and now it isn't then it is in your cleaning method. Cleaning is a very simple and straightforward process if done right. It is also nothing that you should be afraid of.... if done right. That is a good article if not taken to the extreme, you know like most other things on the web.

 

[300ATT]

After twenty years of carefully breaking in barrels ( including following the ridiculous advice of an article in Precision Shooting to fire-lap a barrel) I read an article about the US Olympic Smallbore Team and their cleaning regimen. Half of the team cleaned regularly and half never cleaned their rifles ... I now clean my centerfires every 4-500 rounds and have yet to clean my rimfires (except for the 10-22’s). I don’t have empirical proof that this is the right way to go but the guns shoot good and Life is good, so far anyway.

It would be interesting to hear what others have found w/respect to cleaning a Precision bolt action .22

 

[accurate obsession]

Since you state that you were an unknown # of rounds (probably a lot) since last cleaning I would tend to go with the carbon ring. Rimfire is the filthiest stuff we shoot, just look at the carbon in your suppressor and how tenacious it holds on. Just read an article on cleaning by some bench rest boys, seems the new thing is carbon removal with CLR. I've never heard of this before and haven't tried it yet but they were raving about how well it took out carbon.

 

[TheGerman]

- Took the action out and re torqued the screws
- Ran my limiter over all the ring screws and it didn't move so nothing was loose there
- Cleaned the rifle again; took a page from the ridiculous cleaning manual and did the JB Paste route, focusing on the first 1/3 of the barrel from the chamber
- Then did some oil, brush, and patched it until it was clean

While cleaning, I noticed at first that about half way down the barrel, at the exact same spot, it required an extra bit of force to continue pushing the cleaning rod down each time. After I got a few passes with the JB paste, that went away.

Took it out today and it settled after 20-30ish rounds. Since the flyers started, prior to the first clean, as well as after, I've been using the Magnetospeed from the start of every range trip instead of just getting my velocity baseline and updating at different temperatures to get a good velocity/temperature curve.

I think the problem is two fold in that there was something up with the barrel causing the flyers (lead ring half way down the barrel?) but now that I was shooting 100% of everything with the Magnetospeed attached, the velocity extreme spreads on even Lapua Center X and Midas are laughable. Only Wolf Match Extra (same stuff though, isnt it?) was somewhat more consistent shot to shot. The initial testing I did when I ended up having to switch lots of Center X was over 3 or 4 boxes of it and that gave me my velocity data; I don't recall there being any crazy E/S like there is now. Ironically, while monitoring where in my 5 shot groups the high rounds were that went above the group, sure as shit, it was doing 40fps more than the other shots. There was a 10 shot string where I'd be grouping the first few at around 1045fps, then all of a sudden one would be underneath - 998fps. Then more at around 1045 and then 1083 fps; above the target.

This is slowly making sense in that either my initial velocity data was lucky, or somehow the rest of this batch/lot isn't as good; more-so in that at 150, 200, 250, I was sometimes shooting .5 or more MIL directly over the target and then would get 2-3 hits in a row right after. Since I don't shoot any closer than 100, the flyers at 200+ were the shots that would string high, or low depending on what side of the E/S spread they were on and make me shoot constant vertical groups that were accurate, yet strung.

Obviously the issue with the 22 is always the ammo, but I never blame the ammo/equipment first. In this case, after eliminating everything, the flyers were caused by some sort of fouling/lead ring/something. Apparently I didn't get it off with a simple, gentler cleaning the first time. The secondary issue is that something is up with the remainder of this lot, my rifle no longer likes this lot, or something else has changed.

For 100 shot strings assuming the temperature doesn't change, what are you guys seeing from lots your rifle likes as far as S/D and E/S? My next step is to quickly go through a few different type of ammo and see if I can refine my ammo quality.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Had started to see my 455 throwing shots when I was 100000% sure the reticle didn't move anywhere near where the shot ended up. I actually have no idea how many rounds are on the 455, its been that long since I've cleaned it. Groups were opening, flyers were appearing, figure its time.

Cleaned it with just some Hoppes 9, chamber guide, brush, patched it until they came out relatively clean. Scrubbed the bolt face, mopped out the chamber, oiled the bolt again and done.

Took it out today and I knew the first 1/2-full box would be iffy because the barrel needing to be seasoned. Decided to put the MagnetoSpeed on the barrel for the first 50 to get more chrono data and not worry about accuracy. Noticed 2 things right off the bat:

1 - The velocity it was showing was on average 60fps lower at first than the same lot, shot from the same gun in the same temperature. It did eventually come up to around 1045, but was initially hovering constantly at 1010; last chrono data of 50 shots showed an average of 1079 prior to the cleaning.

2 - I was vertical stringing the entire time from start to finish. After one full box of the Center X lot I had been shooting a lot of before cleaning and still making every 5 shot group look like an I, I changed to Wolf Match Extra for another 50 rounds and got the exact same result. If there was a competition to draw the letter I with your groups, I would have won.

I know the 22's need some time to settle after a cleaning. For some reason I always thought mine did within 50 rounds. I'm at over 150 and it still shoots like absolute garbage; its consistent but the vertical stringing is insane. Just to make sure I wasn't doing anything insane, shot a Mk12 in between and everything was great. Went back to the 455 and it was the letter I again.

Give it more time to settle?
Barrel is fucked/starting to be shot out?
Is it lead buildup? Doubtful as its a Lilja barrel but I dont have a bore scope so no idea how to verify if it is/isnt; if so, how do you get the lead out?
Something else? Only thing I was going to try was to re-torque the action screws.

Buy a Vudoo like a real man. ?

 

[accurate obsession]

The ammo situation with accuracy rimfire shooting can really piss you off. If and when you find that "magic bullet" for your rifle you better pray that lot is still available that the source you bought it from will allow you to specify a lot # and that you can afford a case of it right then and now.

 

[JG26_Irish]

A couple of comments. I will try to not repeat others. When you never clean a 22 the bbl will build up with lead and other fouling (carbon, etc) until no more can remain and the bullets will keep this relatively constant. When you cleaned it with a gentle method, it only disturbed that equilibrium and would have taken a long time to get back to where it was. This may be a portion of the velocity difference that you observed. Lower or higher velocity could cause a lot of ammo which worked good before to now be less accurate. The only solution is to aggressively clean the bore which you have now done. But it may take some testing to find a sweet shooting lot now that the bore harmonics have been changed, or just shoot it a lot for a while until it fouls up again. As was said earlier, some Olympians never clean and others clean every match. Both can work. I prefer to clean after every outing using a fairly gentle method unless I know the bore is very fouled. This makes it possible to get all or most of the gunk out and the gun will settle right in after a dozen shots or so.

For used guns or after a few years use, I will clean with JB paste & kroil also focusing on the rear 3rd to half more than the rest to remove carbon ring and heavy lead fouling if it exists. By cleaning often, it never builds up much and my bbl does not change much, making it easier to keep lots that work well with it. If it is never cleaned it is always changing until it reaches that fully fouled equilibrium I spoke of. Most of my rifles shoot better than they deserve to and I am not that great a shot. I buy a lot of used guns. Most shoot like crap at first and many times their owners thought the bbl was shot out. After detail cleaning them 3-4 times, I often get better accuracy out of them. I have a custom Mauser 270 hunting rifle which struggled to group 2" at 100y when I first got it. After some TLC it groups sub MOA with factory ammo consistently. If I wanted to hand load for it, I think I could cut that in half. With a 22lr a carbon ring can be harder than the lead bullet. It can deform it enough that it is now smaller than the bore and is rattling down the bbl leaking propellant gases and reducing the velocity. If the projectile is loose in the bbl, it is going to exit in a random manner and thus introduce more variance to an already long stack of variables affecting your overall accuracy.

Irish

 

[Rolltide]

Great post Irish!

 

[whatsupdoc]

You are not a real German, never met a German that did not keep his gun clean.

 

[4sfed]

- Took the action out and re torqued the screws
- Ran my limiter over all the ring screws and it didn't move so nothing was loose there
- Cleaned the rifle again; took a page from the ridiculous cleaning manual and did the JB Paste route, focusing on the first 1/3 of the barrel from the chamber
- Then did some oil, brush, and patched it until it was clean

You did not mention detail cleaning the bolt. If the firing pin is dragging, it may not be hitting the rim consistently, affecting ignition. That will certainly affect velocity.

 

[djdilliodon]

Inconsistent velocity is not always the ammos fault. It’s much easier to say it is but sometimes it is inconsistent ignition which majority of rifles have. Without getting crazy with work you can try fully disassembling the bolt and cleaning all part. If that doesn’t work then there are other things that would need to be done but not really a diy project unless you know what your doing.

 

[TimK]

I'm one of those who cleans often. I get to shoot at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, and I've watched many of our top shooters clean their barrels at the range, immediately after shooting while they are still warm.

I know this is heresy, but I use old fashioned wire brushes, not nylon. When I stay up on cleaning, it takes just 3-4 passes with carbon solvent to get it clean.

I've been using a 50-50 mix of Hoppes (for powder fouling) and Kroil (to try to get under the lead). One that is cleaned out, I'll clean for carbon.

Last thought, if you haven't, detail clean the bolt and firing pin. A dirty or slow pin can cause light strikes, potentially affecting accuracy.

 

[natdscott]

Take the damned Magnetospeed OFF the barrel. Rimfire rifles are finicky little bitches at times.

I know, I know..."not supposed to matter"...

And yet it caused one barrel of mine to shoot 6-8" groups at 300 yards, from ammo that is usually good for about 3/4 Minute.


Oh. And quit worrying about velocities with the .22LR. Groups fired at 100+ yards will tell you e'rythang you need to know about whether ammo works or does not.

 

[TimK]

Velocities don't matter? Gotta disagree. The longer the range, the more it matters. I'd concede that at 50 yards it doesn't matter, but I guarantee that at 200 it's a prime factor in hitting or missing.

 

[4sfed]

Oh. And quit worrying about velocities with the .22LR. Groups fired at 100+ yards will tell you e'rythang you need to know about whether ammo works or does not.

I took that comment to mean that the impact point will tell you how consistent the velocity is from shot to shot. That it's not necessary to measure it.

 

[ZG47A]

I suspect that his primary point is: shoot it and see what it does.

I recommend that, if you are going to record velocity strings of 10, 20 or 50 shots, you should be interpreting the variations on a percentage basis, i.e. divide the standard deviation by the mean (or average if you prefer that term) velocity. This will give you the coefficient of variation.

Coming back to my original point, the most important measurement is the shot dispersion on the target. Anything else is, in the final analysis (and with all due respect to other posters) a way to fill the conversation whilst taking refreshment, away from the firing point.

 

[natdscott]

I took that comment to mean that the impact point will tell you how consistent the velocity is from shot to shot. That it's not necessary to measure it.

I suspect that his primary point is: shoot it and see what it does.

Yup. The thing is, there is SOOO much to the equation of whether a .22LR ammunition shoots well that velocity is not really worth tracking, except as much as knowing whether it accidentally goes supersonic or not.

Eley engineers have over FIFTY variables they track and engineer around. And yet we sit here and talk about ONE as though we know what we're doing?!

You can select two lots of Eley Match of the exact same speed, and shoot them in your rifle, and one WILL shoot better than the other, sometimes significantly so.

The differences between ammo that DOES work, and ammo that does NOT work are usually so stark that it's not even necessary to know what speed it was. This gets kinda dicey when you start testing different lots of the same ammunition, but that's easy too: put the target further away. Test a 10 meter rifle at 50 feet...test a 50m rifle at 200..you get the idea. If it will easily X-clean a 200 yard target, then it will most likely have NO issue at 50m.

Coming back to my original point, the most important measurement is the shot dispersion on the target. Anything else is, in the final analysis (and with all due respect to other posters) a way to fill the conversation whilst taking refreshment, away from the firing point.

I like that. Nicely worded.

-Nate

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Use this to remove a carbon ring. The little VFG pellets can be saturated with the JB by pressing it in. Just posted about his on RFC.

 

[quickdraw]

I've been using VFG pellets for about 6 month and I love the ease of use and how well they clean. I use boretech as a solvent for them. They are perfect for a 22lr. I have tried the 30cal on my 6.5CM and like those also but I already had a good cleaning system for that.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

jesus christ.....i wondered into the wrong thread. you guys have more rimfire witch craft and chicken bone shit then ive ever heard in years.

my savage fvsr trainer has around 28k rounds on it. i rarely if ever shoot paper as i run it from barricades out to 200yd on small shit. usually 1-2moa steel. it stacks shots as in under 1moa off a barricade at 100yd runniong the same old cci standard velocity ive ran since it was new. always suppressed. never scrubbed shit, never chicken bone jb bore paste or any other carbon ring horse shit.

at most once in a while i will pull a bore snake through it with some kroil on it....usually when i get drunk and forget it outside on my barricade over night .

 

[natdscott]

jesus christ.....i wondered into the wrong thread. you guys have more rimfire witch craft and chicken bone shit then ive ever heard in years.

my savage fvsr trainer has around 28k rounds on it. i rarely if ever shoot paper as i run it from barricades out to 200yd on small shit. usually 1-2moa steel. it stacks shots as in under 1moa off a barricade at 100yd runniong the same old cci standard velocity ive ran since it was new. always suppressed. never scrubbed shit, never chicken bone jb bore paste or any other carbon ring horse shit.

at most once in a while i will pull a bore snake through it with some kroil on it....usually when i get drunk and forget it outside on my barricade over night .

You need a blowjob and a pancake.

-Nate

 

[Hoser]

I clean my rimfires after every match/practice using VFG pellets and kroil mixed with shooters choice.

It only takes 15-20 rounds to settle down after a cleaning.

 

[Nik H]

Give it more time to settle?
Barrel is fucked/starting to be shot out?
Is it lead buildup? Doubtful as its a Lilja barrel but I dont have a bore scope so no idea how to verify if it is/isnt; if so, how do you get the lead out?
Something else? Only thing I was going to try was to re-torque the action screws.

I've seen settling time vary depending on the ammo but never have seen it take more than 30 rounds.

Find it super hard to believe that your barrel is shot out. That is crazy. .22LR barrels last a LONG time so unless you have fired over 100,000 rounds through it, I would be shocked.

Is there a carbon ring in the chamber? Get some sort of fiber light pipe and shine it into the barrel and see if there is a ring. They are hard to get out if you don't clean it somewhat regularly. This could be the cause?

It doesn't sound like an action issue to me; especially, if you haven't touched them.

I will regret saying this but what about damaging the crown?

 

[ZG47A]

One thing that has not been mentioned is ... primer residue. Back in the 1980s I purchased an Otis ‘Kit in a Caboodle’, a cleaning kit in a round steel tin. It came with instructions to pull the patch through to the end of the chamber, twist the cable several times and then pull through the barrel. I had never come across that instruction before but ... I decided, I will play your silly game.
I followed the instructions and out came small chunks of primer residue. The same result is achievable using a bronze brush but the Otis way is quicker. You always get more primer residue building up in a Rimfire because there is a higher ratio of primer to propellant. I once heard another customer complaining in a local gun shop that it had become hard to close the bolt on his expensive European .22WMR rifle. I advised that it was probably a buildup of primer residue and he arranged to have the rifle professionally cleaned. It is my recollection that the proposed remedy worked.
You can argue till the cows come home about lubricant, lead and carbon rings but the one thing that will put the brakes on every ,22 Rimfire rifle, is primer residue building up at the front of the chamber,

 

[Kisssofdeath]

ZG47A,

Are you saying the primer residue buildup is "before" the carbon ring buildup?
'Before", meaning closer to the bold head.

 

[ZG47A]

The primer residue builds up in the leade of a .22 lr firearm (given that it does not have a throat). It could build up further back, if the firearm is frequently used with .22 short or CB cap, Aguila Kolibri, etc. I have never really looked into the matter of carbon rings although I have my own suspicion about the primary cause of their creation in firearms chambered for .22 long rifle. My point is: that shooters should worry about what is definitely a problem before worrying about what might be a problem.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Ok, wasn't sure. I know when I inspect my bores with my borescope I always see the carbon ring as the first substance of resistance. See photos for examples.

This particular rifle had a thick carbon ring 360°.

This one is just forming, Rifle has 200 rounds of CCI Standard Velocity through it.