yet ANOTHER accuracy and barrel question thread............

[komishe]

yep

So, there's a million articles on .22lr shooting .25" at 25 and 50 yards, and if th' enternet is correct, there's a zillion Rugers and Savages that hold MOA out to 400......

My problem is, everything seems to shoot great at 50y. It's after 50 where a good rifle and ammo seems to stand out to me.

My first question: If guys in white coats and goggles, with the finest facilities,a shit-ton of money, and a pile of all the readily available match grade .22 ammo. How accurate could the round be? So far,-- .22 LR Ammunition Accuracy ? 55 Ammo Types Tested « Daily Bulletin-- is the most informative thing I've found.
My google skills are feeble, and I'm not able to deduce a whole lot from benchrest comp. scores.

Would I be out of line to assume that would be pretty much the upper limit with the .22lr round? Five,5-shot groups at 100y averaging .455 is pretty sweet.

Anybody qualified(or under-qualified) to comment on this?

Second question: for the Lilja barrel guys out there. What kind of groups are you seeing benched,on a windless day with your favorite ammo?

I'm asking because I have a stock CZ 455 varmint that shoots really well(for me) with Midas+ and Center-X,however, my VQ barreled 10/22 w/hogue will outperform it by just a hair on any given day. I haven't seen the most enthusiasm for that Ruger or stock here, so it got me wondering how much I may have to gain. I realize some bedding and a sweet ass trigger usually are included to maximize potential.

Before I post pics, I'll just say, I know learning wind doping and proper setup is more important than just a possible few tenths in accuracy for becoming an accomplished shooter. Sometimes its just fun to make things more awesome.
I can't shoot at my 100 in the a.m. when it's calm because of my neighbors, and it's been gusty till dark most days when I'm ready to shoot some paper.
I live right by the coast in the mountains, I think this is the first time I've got to shoot in an actual full value wind without having head and tail winds, so this is the best I have for an approximate average.

targets shot @ 100y Lapua Center-X
center- 3 shots with no wind/atmosphere correction, corrected elevation, tried to hold for the changing winds, gave up and let the fifth go just to see what the wind was really doing at full blast. The rest are 5 shots each. I was struggling a bit with getting comfy on a bench with loading the bipod and squaring up(I mainly shoot prone,although I've been having a blast trying to strengthen my offhand and sitting)


the next groups
the paper on the bottom was with midas+,always the best shooter for me, I was still struggling with getting solid. I definitely dropped the ball on bag setup on a bunch of those trying to force shots. Plus two groups from the 6.5 testing some 120gr.
I shot at the gong at 200 y for a while and returned to 100 to shoot the groups in the top paper. The wind had died quite a bit, so I thought I might get some nice groups with the Center-X.................
After shooting the first two marked after 200, I knew something was wonky. Upon inspection, I had a barnacle of Lapua Woo forming on the crown of my barrel. I bore snaked it for the second time in about 2000 rounds(lifetime, not for the day HA) and shot the remaining groups. The circled one was forgetting to dial the 6.5 back from 200 and proceeding to wig out, fifth round hit the 8" gong

All groups are five rounds except for the very bottom row center was only 3.
While it's clear a more accurate barrel won't help me much whilst the wind is blowing, I'm still wondering how much I may stand to gain with a Lilja.

Thanks for taking the time to read all this.

Sorry to beat a horse to death.
I'm only asking because I don't know..........
Any input,comments,links or general harassment is greatly appreciated

Komishe


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[justin amateur]

for the Lilja barrel guys out there

Accuracy improves with the quality/cost of the ammo and barrel.
A factory barrel can only take you so far, for that last 0.10"
a match grade barrel and match grade ammo is what's needed.
If you're not competing, you don't need them, unless you're like me,
and needed a reference to understand the difference between
what a factory barrel and a custom barrel can do. In which case
it's worth the money for the experience and education derived.
Having a match grade barrel allowed me to improve my skills beyond
the limits of my factory barrels. If you don't know the cause
of the problem, then you can't work towards a solution.

 

[BenY 2013]

There was a thread a while back about the installation on the lilja barrel on a 455 and how to tweak the gun to make it shoot amazingly well! I think DFOOSKING really hit the nail on the head! That was some good advice!

I can say that if you have not messed any with the trigger on that CZ that you should! There are several options. Depending on your budget you can completely replace the trigger (Timney/Rifle-Basix) or you can just replace the spring on the factory trigger. (YoDave trigger kit) I bought a #144 spring from ACE Hardware and it reduced my CZ trigger down to a nice 2lb no creep pull! Good luck with your gun, looks great by the way!

 

[komishe]

Benchrest shooting and tactical/field shooting and the majority of the skills and firearms they entail is completely different.

-100% agreed. I rarely shoot benchrest and it does not have much practical application in most scenarios. The photos were from my second trip to an actual range with real benches. I prefer my BLM spot, less yahoos and it's not flat as a pancake.

Fuck your neighbors...if you aren't breaking the law and harming or risking anyone...do what you want.

-While I agree that it's my right as a human. I reside right outside city limits, the county marker is in my backyard. So, while it is technically legal, I don't shoot in the early morning out of respect for the many families surrounding me. I can head to BLM land if I really want to freeze my ass off for some trophy groups. Plus the BLM land has about 675 extra yards to play on.

I notice some people chase the white dragon when it comes to groups.

-Not really into punching paper, I just wanted to get an idea of what the rifle and me were really doing. I don't see much value to shooting a piece of paper from the same chair, from the same distance, again and again and again. I like to enjoy squandering my hard earned bucks.

Yeah, strive for better...but eventually you gotta get out there and push your skills.

Part of the reason (In my opinion) to strive for this kind of accuracy is to be able to take a shot on demand and within reasonable expectation... to hit it.

-Yes, I prefer to know who's fault it is when I miss. Like I said, these teeny gains in accuracy aren't going to help me with my horrible wind holds

Getting off the square range....moving off the 50yd line or the 100yd line....getting off the bipod....shooting small obscurely covered targets is just as important as group size.

Ever taken a 125yd shot on a 1.75"x 3" target sitting four stories up? I have. Was it easy? Fuck no. But I'm sure most of us have taken a 125yd or greatly farther shot and thought to ourselves, "oh yeah I got that".

No, but I did shoot a bluejay four stories up from about 50y offhand with my buddies pellet gun once. I didn't let anyone know how shocked I was
Confidence goes a long ways for me making hits. If I don't think I can hit it, everythings fucked.

Your doing great OP and your rifle looks fantastic. Start mixing in some practical shooting and step out of your comfort zone...but your doing really good.

Thanks for the compliments. I'm pretty stoked on the paint too. I didn't want to roll the dice with cerakoting the stock, so I did all the metal in coyote tan and did a little custom blend of rustoleum over that using my HVLP gun.
Practical shooting is where my hearts at, my preferred .22 range is 100-200y. My favorite targets are clay pigeons halfway hidden in a hole, or making "hostage" clays by covering most of a clay with another clay black side towards me with just a small target revealed.
Silhouette has taken me so far out of my comfort zone and I LOVE it.

Thank you, yet again

 

[komishe]

Accuracy improves with the quality/cost of the ammo and barrel.
A factory barrel can only take you so far, for that last 0.10"
a match grade barrel and match grade ammo is what's needed.
If you're not competing, you don't need them, unless you're like me,
and needed a reference to understand the difference between
what a factory barrel and a custom barrel can do. In which case
it's worth the money for the experience and education derived.
Having a match grade barrel allowed me to improve my skills beyond
the limits of my factory barrels. If you don't know the cause
of the problem, then you can't work towards a solution.

If I only stand to gain just a teeny tiny hair, I don't really care to put on an expensive barrel and feed it ammo that costs twice as much. I HATE Midas+! double the cost for .10 inches. I wish I had never got those 600 rounds. It's really hard to not put some in the cart, but I just add center-X and shoot double

I'm mostly curious because my 10/22 with just a Volquartsen barrel and a few cheap tricks will beat this gun by about .1-.2 on a regular basis, and there's this one guy on this site who takes a strong stance against the 10/22 for it's lack of consistency. I cannot recall his name at the moment I notice inconsistency with wolf and eley in it, but it LOVES that damn Midas+ crap.

I think I'll pass on the barrel for now and put the cash in the Anschutz jar

 

[komishe]

I cerakoted the trigger when I did the action. That really smoothed the spring guide rod and the top where it contacts the roll pin. Between that, loosening the spring, and liberal doses of the heavy grease that came with one of my Gissele triggers, the factory trigger feels quite agreeable as it approaches 3k cycles. It's plenty light for an oaf like me, and if I keep it greasy,it breaks crisp with no creep.

Thanks for the tip. I saw it before, but I forgot allready

 

[seanh]

one thing that will help with the neighbors is shooting subsonic ammo. Another thing that will help is a sight tube extension...just a tube to put the front sight farther out. What this does is dull that muzzle crack...doesn't eliminate it, think of the fake suppressor tubes....barrel shroud works too. Mine is 3/4"x 26" on an 18" barrel (slides over the barrel to the receiver). No baffles, or cap...just a shroud. I shoot almost every day in my back yard and no one every says anything.

as to accuracy...crap, I'll get back, got family stuff to do

Back...
One thing you'll see on extreme precision, BR rimfire shooting is how they prep for groups...no different than centerfire, consistency. Every round is weighted, rim thickness measured...then grouped accordingly. When you want to shrink your .22lr groups, this works. It won't make a 1moa rifle a .25 moa rifle but it will significantly reduce fliers and those separate groupings.

 

[komishe]

The last guy that lived here got the sheriff called on him so many times for shooting .22, they got to know each other on a first name basis, and they get along quite well. While it is legal, "it's all about how well you want to get along with your neighbors" according to Johnny law.

My discovery of the quiet match ammo has been quite a blessing for me. My sessions have been pleasantly devoid of any law enforcing or whiny messages upon return.

The extension sounds very cool, I'll have to check those out. However, where I shoot can be seen from the county road(lots of traffic and I'm barely past the 150' county road rule), and I'm surrounded by liberal hippies of your worst nightmares. There is little doubt in my mind that this would cause more alarm than it's worth.

 

[coWSMasher]

As far as ammo goes i have had shitty luck with all the high end stuff eley and the works, but that's ok with me cause my 10/22 loves federal auto match $14 for 350... yeah i'll take it.
I feel with a .22lr your biggest thing is going to be buying a little bit of everything and see what it likes. I have tried over 20 different types of ammo in mine with results ranging from 4 moa to sub-half moa at 50. 22's are picky.

 

[golden_311]

Experienced the same thing.

As far as ammo goes i have had shitty luck with all the high end stuff eley and the works, but that's ok with me cause my 10/22 loves federal auto match $14 for 350... yeah i'll take it.
I feel with a .22lr your biggest thing is going to be buying a little bit of everything and see what it likes. I have tried over 20 different types of ammo in mine with results ranging from 4 moa to sub-half moa at 50. 22's are picky.

 

[Travis224]

I started as a hunter, began benchrest ARA shooting 9 yrs ago, and still hunt. The thing that helped me the most was to understand the enviroment's effect is the largest factor. Yes, there are a ton of factors involved in shooting terrific. Some barrels stabilize bullets better in the wind than others. Seen one gun shoot in the same hole at 50 yds with no wind, then fall apart with wind from the right but hold decent when it blows from the left. Has to do with then right handed twist of the rifleing..anyways, i had a gun that shot great no matter the wind or direction. Then it stopped competing, rebarreled it and never shot as well in the wind again. I kept that barrel in hopes that i would build another gun and i might regain its accuracy.

Keep in mind ARA is shooting from a one piece rest but that helps to key in on wind conditions and your equipment. Ammo is a large part in that and i was tickled when my gun shot well with the lower grade Lapua, but lot #s are half the battle in the accuracy game.

Not sure if much of this applies to your situation but this is some of the things i've learn in the race to the top, (havent made it there yet either!).

 

[komishe]

The more I shoot for precision, the more I notice those environmental effects.
interesting stuff about the wind direction.

I'm curious what would be considered an extremely accurate benchrest gun, or the accuracy limits of the round itself.