Your Thoughts Needed, Prime Ammo 2020

[Lowlight]

When I traveled to California this week I spent a little time with Jim from Prime Ammo. Part of the discussion was about the way forward and new ammo offerings for 2020. With that in mind, a novel new concept was born and wanted your feedback on the subject.

This post is a bit long, but also consider this, without getting too deep, consider the 2nd Amendment restrictions we are seeing today. Consider the fact banks will not loan money, or support the firearms industry. Every day we read more and more articles about the Anti Gun Politicians actively working to stifle the industry as a whole by legislating limitations to how we operate. It's gonna require a new approach and one that puts all gun owners into a collective group of like-minded souls who can then band together in order to circumvent these limitations.

So, here is the thought process from Jim:

The last several months have been very good for PRIME. Thanks to the sheer will of PRIME's customer base we obtained a very good settlement from our former foreign supplier after a protracted legal battle and are enjoying a very good relationship with our new, U.S. based partners. PRIME has reemerged with even better products than we historically offered, and this has proven to be a true Godsend for PRIME. There is a famous cliché that says: "That which does not kill you makes you stronger." This is exactly what has transpired at PRIME. Our products are now 100% American Made, have lower SDs/ESs, are more accurate and are delivered directly to the end-users at prices commensurate with the value they impart. To say that everyone at Team PRIME is grateful for what our customer base did for us is a massive understatement. We have all redoubled our efforts to find new and better ways to provide the very best ammunition products at the best possible prices.


The commodity-based, ultra-low-end "free shipping" crowd that purchases the very cheapest ammunition listed at the top of Ammoseek will always exist. As will the companies offering insane "deals" as they either liquidate their remaining inventory as they go out of business or offer loss leaders just to drive traffic to their site hoping customers also purchase something on which they have some margin. We all know that there is no such thing as "free shipping" and that the old adage of "you get what you pay for" will always be true. The "Wal-Marting of America" has caused most American's to value cheap pricing over actual value and the following link is what you get when that mindset is applied to the ammunition world: https://www.pewpewtactical.com/freedom-munitions-bankruptcy/

Also, the world's largest ammunition company is teetering on the brink of bankruptcy – so we know from these examples that we need to something different.

Indirectly addressing our goal of providing the best products at the best prices, over the last several years have I have come to understand the very unique challenges that the Ammunition industry faces. These are serious obstacles not faced by most other industries and include but are not limited to:


· Massive amounts of the politically engineered stigma associated with the ammunition industry creating nearly insufferable reputational risk for all industry participants - especially investors, lenders, and manufacturers

· Almost a complete lack of access to traditional forms of capital for investment and financing activities

· Things such as purchasing advertising from google/FB/YouTube, traditional banking, taking PayPal payments and crowdsourcing are all completely closed to our industry

· Extremely antiquated manufacturing and supply chain systems as the industry is very small

· The "Politically Incorrect" nature that causes "Reputational Risk" dissuades top-level management from entering the industries

· Almost a complete lack of Just In Time suppliers of components and sub-components for ammunition

· Lack of supply in general

· Limited Research & Development taking place to advance ammunition component manufacturing

· Limited Research & Development taking place to advance ammunition component assembly

· Limited Research & Development taking place for assembly process and procedures of ammunition

· Many major suppliers of ammunition components are Governments

· Ammunition is a heavy, hazardous material not accepted by the USPS and is therefore not inexpensive to ship

· The world's largest retailer of ammunition has announced very significant restrictions on what they will continue to carry


These problems create a situation where we face a lot of uncertainty in terms of what raw materials to purchase, inventory, order, and when to have them on hand and in what quantities.

One of the major competitive advantages the United States still possesses is our world-leading system of partnership between post doctorial academia and industry which produces many of the major discoveries and inventions that quickly make their way to the consumer market. There is no such partnership along these lines for Ammunition related advancements baring some very specialized railgun-based research and some optical-based ballistic solving research not likely to impact "civilian" based ammunition production. To make matters worse, the toxic nature of projectile, propellant and explosives production have placed and continue to place massive amounts of pressure on the producers of bullets, gun powder and primers to the point where much of the commercially viable supplies come from outside the U.S. and are delivered on an infrequent basis. The only answers to these issues from what I can determine is to deploy modern communication and e-commerce related systems to fully understand demand in the effort to manage the supply constraints and therefore more closely match our supply to the demands of the end-users in an effort to keep end-user pricing as low as possible.

I'm talking about obtaining real-time information about the supply of the components, quickly sharing that information with end-users via various modern communication solutions and then using the same communication systems to take orders with payment for products matching the supplies that exist. This then allows PRIME and Sniper's Hide to obtain the components, having them assembled to the specifications provided by our customers and then get them onto FedEx/UPS trucks as fast as possible and on their way to our customer's homes.

The real lesson I learned in going through what just transpired with PRIME was to ALWAYS trust your CUSTOMERS! Based on the very humbling experience of making a bad business mistake of trusting a sole foreign supplier and then having our customer base literally save PRIME I have made an important decision as to how PRIME will move forward. PRIME will once again trust our customer base by turning to them in obtaining the final formulations and demand for the ammunition products enabled by the brass, powders, primers, and projectiles accessible via PRIME's relationships with our new U.S. based suppliers.

Before I had an ammunition company, I worked in the Internet infrastructure business. Requests For Comments are how the Internet was, is and will continue to be built. I think it’s time that an ammunition company deploys the same type of "open community" process in gathering information for the products it makes. In case your members are not familiar with RFCs here is a Wikipedia entry that explains them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_Comments

PRIME has access to a wide variety of very high-quality brass products, we need to use a combination of Internet-based tools and the established trusted relationships we have with our combined customer bases to:


· Gather specific input on what to load in the brass

· Understand how much of it to make and when to make it

· Access lower-cost capital in the form of group purchases in order to procure the components and finance their assembly and fulfillment directly to the end-users via a method similar to the crowdsourcing solutions other industries enjoy that heretofore have been closed to the ammunition industry

We are asking for your partnership to assist PRIME in gathering information on what we should bring to the market. In return for the assistance from your members, PRIME will be offering group purchase based incentives to your membership that will literally enable PRIME to make what your members want in a way not seen before in the ammunition industry. The bottom line is this, many people ask for things and make suggestions but then they don't actually purchase it - and in an industry that has very large challenges in supplying components in a timely manner this leaves large amounts of products on the shelves unsold and literally forces many businesses out of existence. Therefore, we'll be turning this around and will:


· Ask customers what they want, how much of it they are willing to purchase, over what time period, and at what price

· Determine the availability of components necessary to make what customers want at the volumes and delivery time frames they desire

· Communicate the reality of the availability of the necessary components and take orders via group purchases in the form of something resembling crowdsourcing

· Assemble the crowdsourced order and deliver it in the agreed-upon timeframe


The ability to execute on this new system of determining demand, sourcing components, assembling and delivering will rely heavily on trust. The trust Sniper's Hide members have for your community and the trust PRIME has from its customer base are both very significant. It is this combined trust that will enable our new system to work. The key to maintaining this trust is transparency. PRIME is 100% on board and willing to provide a very high level of transparency to any group that makes a group purchase from Sniper's Hide/PRIME. The number one risk that must be avoided is that of a supplier not delivering a key component that holds up the entire process of assembling the ammunition components. Obviously, missing just one of any of the six components (cups, cartridge case, gun powder, primer, projectile, and packaging) can cause very significant delays that will destroy the trust imparted by the group making the purchase.

These risks can and will be successfully managed using the practices I sent you under a separate email. These risk management components are proprietary and that’s why I sent them to you separately.

Here are the calibers for which we currently, have access to brass:

· 22 Creedmoor

· 6x47

· 6 Creedmoor

· 6XC

· .243 Win

· 6.5 Creedmoor

· 6.5x47

· .260 Rem

· 28 Nosler

· 30-06

· 7mm-08

· .300 Win Mag

· .300 Norma Mag

· .338 Norma Mag

· .338 Lapua Mag

· .375 Cheytac

Brass we can obtain:

· 6GT

· .224 Valkyrie

· 6.5 PRC

· 6.5 Grendal

· .300 PRC

· .416

· 50 BMG

· Others???



We look forward to working with you in what we feel will be a new and promising way to gauge demand, finance, procure and deliver high-quality ammunition products to those who need them and are willing to pay a fair price and wait a short period of time for them. PRIME is enthusiastic to work with you in order to determine “next steps”.

As we all know, in order to have a "commercially viable" amount of all the calibers listed above on the shelf and ready for sale without the benefit of knowing the demand, the amount of investment necessary would be taxing on even the largest ammunition company. With the new system of "group purchases" that we are discussing, even a young ammunition company such as PRIME will be able to afford to offer all of these calibers while providing excellent customer service.


Best,


Jim O'Shaughnessy, CEO

PRIME
500 N. Rainbow Road
Suite 300
Las Vegas, NV 89107

702.637.4424 Ext. 762 - Office
www.primeammo.com

 

[TheBigCountry]

How hard would it be to get Prime carried/available in stores like Academy or such?

 

[Lowlight]

Not sure I understand the questions

I believe he is looking for a more customer direct, cut out the middle man approach

Box stores have their own limitations and swing to the whims of "event" and perceived political pressure.

It would be like saying, can you sell Prime at Dicks Sports

 

[canezach]

Frank, is there a way to create a poll on here? I realize Jim is asking for a lot more than just what calibers would be viable products, i.e., the how much would you buy, what would you pay for it, etc, but for simple "What ammo would you buy", it would be a good starting point. There could also be a survey created either on Prime's page or on an external site like SurveyMonkey, that would allow us to offer more in depth answers.

 

[BigRed308]

Have Prime create a survey and send it out via the subscription email

 

[Jackomason]

I'd love to buy factory ammo but due to cost I stick to reloading. Is being a vendor of quality reloading components out of the question?

If there is quality loaded ammo for some of these newer rounds I'd probably by a case for the brass and for a good base line on a new rifle.

 

[BigRed308]

I would love to see PRIME push out 22LR once again. I’m not sure how possible that may be now.

 

[LawnMM]

Wonder if he'd be willing to sell components directly as well as loaded ammunition.

There's currently zero sources for 6x47L brass. If Peterson can produce it and supply it for factory Prime ammo that's great, maybe they can mark up the brass a touch and sell that as well.

Saves the guys who shoot the caliber the trouble and expense of buying Lapua and necking down.

Or maybe like a gunsmith, you could send your specs in regarding powder charge and if you buy a certain amount they'd be willing to load to your desired charge in virgin brass.

That would get them a piece of the market that only hand loaders fill themselves. Depending on the cost it might make more sense in terms of time to order 500rds loaded with my choice of powder, primer, bullet and charge than to do it myself.

I wonder if you could return it after firing and have them reload the same brass with fresh components. Stuff like that hasn't really been tried before.

Maybe factory Prime is rich for my blood, but if I can spec the load and ship the brass back after the first firing to save on costs you might open some doors.

Or it might not be a feasible idea, just tossing out ideas.

That they even have access to 6x47L brass put my eyebrow up.

 

[Secant]

I’m probably in the minority, but I’d love to see Prime have a 7mm Rem Mag offering.

Say something like a 15X gr through 17X gr offering. Guessing on price, but maybe high $20’s or low $30’s per box??

 

[Lowlight]

Polls here and surveys are coming shortly

We wanted to look at this first before telling you what is on hand

 

[Sixfivesavage]

If the pricing on 6.5 creed was in line with what I can get the berger ammo for and used a berger bullet, I'd buy at least a barrels worth of it in a calendar year, possibly two barrels worth. Of course this is all dependent on pricing, projectile and brass quality as well as if there's a price break buying by the case vs box. I know it's probably not easily done for a small company to compete with pricing with a company the size of Lapua/berger ammo but if it were at least close in price and offered similar or superior performance then I'll pay the premium. The fact of the matter for me is with what I can get the berger ammo for through targetsports usa and prime membership, the performance of the ammo and the quality of the brass, it doesn't make sense for me to run the Dillon loading the same bullet in the alpha brass I already have. Even less sense when the once fired brass can be sold for what it brings.

Don't load ammo with a hornady bullet, the market is flooded with that already and there's lots of us who don't want that. Same with 130 grain offerings. I'd buy some 22 creed as well but I don't think the chambering will have enough demand in any one particular projectile to be worth pursuing on PRIMEs part. 185s in 308 that aren't slow AF would be something I'd buy as well but again, not sure the demand is there.

 

[candyx]

The gun and ammo industry must change and seek out credit though foreign banks since US Banks are against 2A . I have no problem using foreign money regardless of the Country of origin willing to provide us credit to buy guns and ammo. American Banks have abandoned the American Patriot plain and simple so we must seek money from other sources .

 

[Lowlight]

Why use any banks, crowdfunding is also closed off unless you create your own crowd

Second Amendment Exchange if you will

 

[LawnMM]

Why not do an Amazon Prime approach? Pay x amount per year to get access to better prices or shipping?

Helps get them subscription based capital they can use ahead of time before the order is even made and the customer gets a better price on ammo and shipping

 

[Dthomas3523]

***disclaimer*** This is very, very rough math and numbers. Let’s not worry with a huge breakdown of why some are off either high or low. Just an illustration of the issue an ammunition supplier targeting snipers hide type customers faces.

I’d imagine, for most people who would be interested in buying some sort of bulk (I’m assuming that’s what they are targeting for and not the guy buying a couple boxes or a case a year), you have to overcome the self loading aspect.

Which means, you have to price ammo at a price point which is more than what the cost of loading is, but also low enough that it’s worth the shooter/loader’s time to purchase the ammo instead of loading. And you also have to do this with ammo that will run around .5moa (or .75 whatever) in most any rifle. Otherwise you don’t appeal to serious shooters again.

With about a $3000 (ish) initial investment of loading equipment, you can easily load 150-200rnds and hour at home. For $2000 or less, you can do 100rnds and hour.

The number for initial equipment can go up or down depending on going cheaper or more expensive, bit

Two fx120 v3 = $1900
Forster co-ax = $ 325
Giraud = $ 400
Misc tools = $ 500

So, let’s say $3k investment for top shelf, just for shits and giggles.

Now, let’s go with a number like, 5,000 rnds/year. This is a pretty liberal number, as most guys don’t shoot this much, but we need a number somewhere.

Thats 50hrs a year loading. Plus range trips, shooting, etc etc for load development. Let’s call it 150hrs once you brass prep, load, develop.

The $3k initial investment is pretty much a one time deal. So, let’s look at things over a 5 year period, as people looking at loading are looking long term, and not just immediate.

That’s a $600/yr investment in loading equipment and 150hrs of time.

Now, let’s break down costs for that 5,000 rnds.

500 pcs brass (due to lost brass and such, I’m going with 10 loadings/pc). $500
24lbs powder (ish) $675
5000 primer $170
5000 bullets $1500
Misc lube and such $200

$3,045 per 5k rnds
+ $600 reloading investment

$3,645 + 150hrs labor a year.

So, that’s $0.73/rnd (total with supplies and equipmentmy cost each year for the next 5 years. And 150hrs of bench/range time.

Now, another challenge is with shooters who actually enjoy loading and load development. You’re likely not going to get them away from the bench. So that’s a dead market.

So, the big question:

How much per round above your loading costs are you willing to pay not to do it??

50 cents? $1?

Me personally, it would be very, very hard to get me away from loading now that I’m invested in it.

But, had I not been invested and was confident loaded ammo from say Prime was going to be good enough, I’d say somewhere around $1.40/rnd would be my point.

But that’s $7,000 someone would have to put down to buy the ammo up front Vs $3k (OT less) initial investment and then buying components as needed.

It’s a tough “problem” to figure out

 

[verdugo60]

+1 on the survey. I personally am also a reloader but I have followed PRIME and recommend them to my friends who don't reload.

The problem I see is that with the proposed system you're asking the customer to pay first and wait, almost in group buy fashion. This format hasn't gone well in the past. Companies get overwhelmed, can't keep up and customers get frustrated. There was a whole fiasco years ago with a small ammo company like that on the hide, owned by vets. Seemed like good guys, just couldn't keep up. So that will be a big part of making things work PRIME.

I also see the challenges to ammo companies outlined by Jeff above. Just not sure this is the fix, people get grumpy paying for stuff and waiting. See PVA and many others in this game. We are a Walmart culture used to instant gratification.

I would love to see PRIME source some high quality 280 AI brass from Peterson or ADG. It's now SAAMMI approved and gaining traction with long range hunters especially. Offer the brass, a hunting load with maybe an Accubond or ELD-X and a long range target load. I would buy several hundred of the brass and maybe some loaded ammo in a pinch.

Good luck!

 

[lash]

So, I’ve read the thoughts from Jim and get what he’s talking about. But the thoughts seem to leave the path to the answer unclear. It seems as if the concept is like a mini crowd funding concept, but that the funders are actually those wishing to buy said product. Or maybe that the funders are somehow reimbursed or vested in the venture.

I do buy ammo for some things that I don’t reload, but cost is most definitely a factor. In the past, I liked Prime ammo in .260, but the cost for .260 over 6.5 Creedmoor was too high to justify buying more than a couple cases for the brass. If, for example, .224 Valkyrie was as affordable as the Hornady match options in an equivalent load,then I’d be all over Prime and could commit to some purchase amount.

 

[want2learn]

So few companies are willing to sell to California.

Certainly it must be extremely challenging to keep up with the ever changing set of rules and restrictions and yet this must be a sizable market. My impression is that the situation we currently face may well soon extend to other states...other markets.

Thankfully there are some local FFLs who are willing to accept ammunition. Networking with them, perhaps directly instead of only dealing with major distributors might prove helpful in the long run.

It would sure be nice to have a reliable source for 6.5x47L.......it's really hard to secure here.

 

[Dthomas3523]

So, I’ve read the thoughts from Jim and get what he’s talking about. But the thoughts seem to leave the path to the answer unclear. It seems as if the concept is like a mini crowd funding concept, but that the funders are actually those wishing to buy said product. Or maybe that the funders are somehow reimbursed or vested in the venture.

I do buy ammo for some things that I don’t reload, but cost is most definitely a factor. In the past, I liked Prime ammo in .260, but the cost for .260 over 6.5 Creedmoor was too high to justify buying more than a couple cases for the brass. If, for example, .224 Valkyrie was as affordable as the Hornady match options in an equivalent load,then I’d be all over Prime and could commit to some purchase amount.

Agreed.

Unless they can get into the Hornady and Berger costs of ammo, I think they are going to be using the line “fair price for a good product” line.

Unless ammo such as hornady and Berger increase in cost, most consumers are going to use that as a baseline for “fair.” Regardless if it’s really fair or not.

 

[LawnMM]

I think the observations regarding the current challenges are spot on.

I think to survive he's going to have to think outside the box and do something new to survive and thrive.

The pay now and wait thing only works if the timeline is stuff as a board. Any delays and people get pissed.

 

[Tunnuh]

There was a lot of wording in the statement from Jim, and I want to make sure I understand the intent of the communication.

In summary:

1. Keeping pricing low is affected by the cost of inventory and production capacity.

2. Prime is looking at crowd funding and group buys or "pre-orders" to more accurately forecast demand and then they are able to right size production, procurement, and reduce carrying costs.

3. The benefit of crowdfunding through a group buy, and listing the above calibers is a better cost to those who purchase in this way, they can also plan purchases and you basically have a co-op style ammo group for an undetermined portion of Prime's business. Buyers have availability and cost savings for planning ahead.

Is that basically what is being proposed to us?

If so, I think that is a great idea because we are a niche market. Will they own this segment of the business? No, but serve a dedicated and loyal customer base, absolutley. What is the plan to get a group buy rolling? Do they need help planning?

 

[bornhunter04]

Hard part will be managing expectations and keeping lead times between payment and product delivery short. Comms will jave to be 100% consistent and on point to do this.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

I can buy my creed ammo for $1.32/ round delivered and I buy my 308 ammo for $1.80/round delivered. The 308 isn't from a big company so that's mostly why it's higher priced but its also substantially faster and lower es/sd than the 185 FGMM because it's tailored to my rifle. My point here is, the price spread and the fact that the 6.5 is in Lapua brass vs the federal brass for the 308 is enough to make me shoot the 6.5 two to three times more and have zero desire to load it on my own. The 308 I would actually load on my own if it weren't for being lazy and tight on time.

 

[stello1001]

Not sure that my input means much, but not too long ago I was looking to buy ammo as my ammo pile was really really low. It was between Spark Munitions and Prime for me. I only went with Spark because the 140ELDM used there is known and has a track record for being good on 4 legged critters. I hunt so I wanted a bullet that was not going to pencil through nor explode.

Prime markets their bullet as a great option for hunting pronghorn, pigs, etc but nobody could tell me based on experience that it was actually good for that. Not even Jim who responded on my thread. I know Prime's target market is more towards PRS shooters and precision rifle shooters. But if you look in the hunting thread, you will see almost everyone posting their kills using their 20 pound precision rifles.

If Prime would offer a hunting load, I would have gone that route, and I'm sure many others would like to have that option as well. Just my .02...

 

[Lowlight]

There was a lot of wording in the statement from Jim, and I want to make sure I understand the intent of the communication.

In summary:

1. Keeping pricing low is affected by the cost of inventory and production capacity.

2. Prime is looking at crowd funding and group buys or "pre-orders" to more accurately forecast demand and then they are able to right size production, procurement, and reduce carrying costs.

3. The benefit of crowdfunding through a group buy, and listing the above calibers is a better cost to those who purchase in this way, they can also plan purchases and you basically have a co-op style ammo group for an undetermined portion of Prime's business. Buyers have availability and cost savings for planning ahead.

Is that basically what is being proposed to us?

If so, I think that is a great idea because we are a niche market. Will they own this segment of the business? No, but serve a dedicated and loyal customer base, absolutley. What is the plan to get a group buy rolling? Do they need help planning?

This

 

[Tunnuh]

This

I'm down. Everyone has various levels of income, but I think if we get an ammo group buy section that is for Prime as a go-through means/partnership with the hide and its members that would work.

Maybe like a quarterly buy? Im just brainstorming and of course that would be dependent on @lowlight approval. Or a pre-order in whatever the appropriate lead time might be based on caliber.

Where does Prime want the feedback, here?

Edit: Scratch that, I see ehere s poll is coming soon.

 

[Jabot]

If u could use the survey and come up with loads precision shooters would actually use in compition, practice. Using the components they already use,berger ,varget ,4350 and such at a price that makes it hard to justify reloading that would be outstanding. The closest I've seen is the berger ammo shoots pretty damn good

 

[1moaoff]

I have a fair amount of PRIME on the shelf for times I cant reload. That being said when I do purchase ammo I tend to buy multiple cases. One thing I would like is a break on 5 case plus orders. And I dont need any more SWAG...

Other options
- try doing runs of a specific load or caliber. This would need to be based on feedback that shows demand but it could be just having runs made a few times a year. Basically a limited run.

- sell components. I understand PRIME wants to sell ammo but I bet a huge percentage of their users also reload. So you could create brand loyalty and impulse buys while ordering.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I didn't want to handload for precision rifle. But, as @Dthomas3523 said, I'm invested. So, now I look for QUALITY components on sale. If components could be made available as well as loaded ammo, with competitive pricing - not necessarily the cheapest, but consistent, fair, and predictable, I'd be a loyal customer.

As it is, I spend more time than I'd like price shopping because the differences in pricing among different outlets are quite significant.

 

[b2lee]

$3k on reloading equipment?....pfft...amateur. I love my time in the reloading room....and sometimes no matter how much money and time I have...components for what I shoot aren't available. If Prime had it available...I'd choose them first over other options.

If shipping wasn't such a hassle with ammo...I for one would sign up for an 'Ammo of the Month' club and have a box or two sent to be from a revolving wish list...and auto deducted from my credit card.

If you could load up some 300PRC in non-Hornday brass....you could probably sell quite a bit at the moment.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

For the love of god, if prime wants to have a future and group buys and crowd sourcing is how they are gonna fund things.....please be on point with comms and be frequent with it. Dont turn into the shit show the John Hancock rifle did.

 

[BigPineyTradingPost]

It sounds great! Very nice, but is it a good business move?

 

[W54/XM-388]

The commodity-based, ultra-low-end "free shipping" crowd that purchases the very cheapest ammunition listed at the top of Ammoseek will always exist. As will the companies offering insane "deals" as they either liquidate their remaining inventory as they go out of business or offer loss leaders just to drive traffic to their site hoping customers also purchase something on which they have some margin. We all know that there is no such thing as "free shipping" and that the old adage of "you get what you pay for" will always be true. The "Wal-Marting of America" has caused most American's to value cheap pricing over actual value and the following link is what you get when that mindset is applied to the ammunition world: https://www.pewpewtactical.com/freedom-munitions-bankruptcy/

Also, the world's largest ammunition company is teetering on the brink of bankruptcy – so we know from these examples that we need to something different.

This pretty much explains why a couple big corporations who can afford to loose billions of dollars of "other people's money" selling things below cost as well as Chinese with mail rates that are lower than even US domestic mail rates are pretty much pushing everybody else out of the market on so many fronts and there is going to be a real issue with there being only a couple monopoly type resellers of everything left and all will be at their mercy.

 

[Diver160651]

I been reloading for years... loosing my ass on every round until you get to the ELR calibers.

if you are retired or single with no hobbies other than reloading you really should add in the same rate you’d be making at work..

let me add to @Dthomas3523 ’s math.

Let’s say without OT there is about 2,080 working hours on average per year. Let’s say you provides healthcare that otherwise might run your family 2k per month (I have friends paying $2800).. so bennies on HC run it around 20k, assume you have a nice job and earn 200k annually.. so 220,000/2080hrs = is $105 hr. Or in a very sobering metric about $1.75 a minute.

I have many thousands of $$ in reloading equipment plus thousands in inventory of bullets and powder.. way more than I care to admit.. when I reload I might waste 50 plus rounds and then at lest that many gathering dope.. these numbers add up in barrel wear and more waisted time. Oh, and how about components that get waisted do to FIFO layer issues??

My 419 kitted auto trickler making match quality reloads are not much better than the new Prime, certainty not in the PRS type game.

I can load about 50/60 Precision rounds an hour. This does not include brass preparation and clean up.

So I want to be real, my loaded ammo costs me the cost of the components + the cost of the inventory $ not making me money + about $2 round in labor.

Makes quality loads, like Prime a steel...

That said, Prime might be better off focusing on any ammo the big guys are not. Using the crowd sourcing to be ahead of Hornady like with the 6GT or whatever

Just my IPA into Siri ramblings

 

[LawnMM]

Damn, Diver. "Assume you have a nice job and make 200k/yr"

L-oh-fuckin-L.

Pretty sure you're in the minority on that assumption. I make a good wage and even better with OT and you're still talking close to double my salary.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

I think he's in California. Wages vary across the country.

 

[lash]

I think he's in California. Wages vary across the country.

True enough. Florida touts it’s low wages to attempt to attract potential employers. It really just means that people here are suckers. Ask me how I know.

 

[Winny94]

I been reloading for years... loosing my ass on every round until you get to the ELR calibers.

if you are retired or single with no hobbies other than reloading you really should add in the same rate you’d be making at work..

Unless you taking unpaid leave or giving up paid OT to reload, why would you do this? A hobby is just that - something you enjoy doing during your downtime. Do people attach an hourly value based on their job rate to time spent in a tree stand? under the hood? painting? woodworking? watching football? Setting a fantasy roster?

Also, "nice salary" and "$200K" should never be used in the same sentence. haha. $200K in any region is phenomenal money

 

[Diver160651]

Damn, Diver. "Assume you have a nice job and make 200k/yr"

L-oh-fuckin-L.

Pretty sure you're in the minority on that assumption. I make a good wage and even better with OT and you're still talking close to double my salary.

But I am broke.... You'd cry if you saw the federal tax I pay. The guy across the street (we have tiny yards compaired to most the rest of the country) pays over 20K year in property tax... Gas is 4.29gal and our roads a f'd up. My house in Wyoming it's about 2 something gal a gallon and the roads are nice..

So ya, even then, I am the working poor... That's the bitch about perception on who should pay what... Anyway, going to bed.. have to get up early and set the UKD for next weekend team match...

edited to add: glad I didn't put down my actual earnings.. lol..you guys are rough.

 

[Milf Dots]

This pretty much explains why a couple big corporations who can afford to loose billions of dollars of "other people's money" selling things below cost as well as Chinese with mail rates that are lower than even US domestic mail rates are pretty much pushing everybody else out of the market on so many fronts and there is going to be a real issue with there being only a couple monopoly type resellers of everything left and all will be at their mercy.

Yes, like Amazon.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I also have thousands dumped into reloading but I do NOT enjoy doing it. I do it because the calibers I want to shoot arent offered by anyone (except Lapua 6BR and that shit is slow and retarded expensive, so I dont count it.)

With that said, I recently picked up a 6CM barrel for my AI simply to shoot factory ammo when I dont feel like loading for a match and dont feel like being at a disadvantage ballisticly. If prime offeres some of the calibers listed in Frank'a email from Jim, it will be a complete game changer for people in my position. 6GT, 6.5PRC, GOOD .300WM, 6.5 grendel, 6x47L, etc, I probably would quit shooting the calibers that I currently load for as much and shoot what's offered by prime. I'm all about getting this ball rolling.

Besides, Jim was suppose to come fishing with me here in NC a while back but that pesky Guardian Ireland match got in the way. I'll happily trade him a free offshore trip for some ammo supply! ???

 

[Tunnuh]

I also have thousands dumped into reloading but I do NOT enjoy doing it. I do it because the calibers I want to shoot arent offered by anyone (except Lapua 6BR and that shit is slow and retarded expensive, so I dont count it.)

With that said, I recently picked up a 6CM barrel for my AI simply to shoot factory ammo when I dont feel like loading for a match and dont feel like being at a disadvantage ballisticly. If prime offeres some of the calibers listed in Frank'a email from Jim, it will be a complete game changer for people in my position. 6GT, 6.5PRC, GOOD .300WM, 6.5 grendel, 6x47L, etc, I probably would quit shooting the calibers that I currently load for as much and shoot what's offered by prime. I'm all about getting this ball rolling.

Besides, Jim was suppose to come fishing with me here in NC a while back but that pesky Guardian Ireland match got in the way. I'll happily trade him a free offshore trip for some ammo supply! ???

I'd volunteer time to help get a group together, just not sure how he wants that done. I also switched to 6mm Creedmoor to save reloading time, and cant wait to get my bonus and buy some prime 115 ammo. I hate load development and reloading with family, work, and all the other stuff I do.

 

[Secant]

At this stage in my life, reloading would merely be a means to an end. I would be willing to do it if the numbers add up, and I’ve ran the lifecycle costs of reloading at least twice a year for I don't know how many years. Just from memory, If I don't account for initial cost of equipment and don't factor in a learning curve, I need to perform all the brass prep and reload each round in about 40 seconds (ish) to break even with purchasing ammo.

 

[LawnMM]

But I am broke.... You'd cry if you saw the federal tax I pay. The guy across the street (we have tiny yards compaired to most the rest of the country) pays over 20K year in property tax... Gas is 4.29gal and our roads a f'd up. My house in Wyoming it's about 2 something gal a gallon and the roads are nice..

So ya, even then, I am the working poor... That's the bitch about perception on who should pay what... Anyway, going to bed.. have to get up early and set the UKD for next weekend team match...

edited to add: glad I didn't put down my actual earnings.. lol..you guys are rough.

Sounds like Jersey. Just saying that's a lofty assumption. I don't think I wind up getting close on time vs cost unless I add materials and time.

Part of the reason I think reloading is popular is obviously it's tuned to your gun, but the costs when set up are smaller and sporadic instead of regular and high.

In other words, I think it's easier to buy components here and there in terms of cost than to pony up for 300rds (two cases of 200) at $200-$300 per case in one purchase than the peacemeal purchasing you can do when loading your own.

 

[Bravo6niner]

If they sold a good 6br or 6br variant and it shot well it would be hard to not go that route if you could be in it around $0.90.

 

[lash]

I don’t know why we're discussing reloading in this thread, but it’s a false argument to include your income making potential when talking about the cost of reloading. If you have the spare time to load, it’s no different than making your own dinner. Is it cheaper to make and eat your own food at home or by that logic is it cheaper to eat at a restaurant for every meal? The answer is that it is obviously cheaper to prepare your own food at home.

The same logic applies for any endeavor that involves the use of your non-working time. Unless you actually are going to spend all of those hours producing income, they are not valued at income making rates. Thus the widely used term “free time”.

Does growing your own food save money? Does fixing your own vehicle or home or mowing your own grass save you money? Unless you would otherwise actually be working and producing income then the answer is always yes.

I had to start loading my own match ammo in order to not go broke and still be able to shoot. I spent the better part of two years shooting purchased ammo, at the best rates I could find for decent ammo. I spent many thousands of dollars doing so. After spending about $1000 initial total investment for my loading equipment and initial loading supplies, I now save literally thousands of dollars every year by loading my own. I don’t love to do it, but it’s the only way I can afford to keep shooting any reasonable amount.

I decided a while ago not to go down the rabbit hole if chasing every caliber I shoot and to only focus only the volume of my match shooting and ELR rounds. All other calibers are purchased.

 

[Jackomason]

I like the way Frank was talking about barreled actions with savage, why couldn't prime do the same kinda deal? Component packs, maybe primed brass and enough powder for 200 rounds (with load data) and bullets. I dont even need to know the type of powder.

Starter kit has brass included and can be opted out of later.

That way, if reloading isn't realistic (time wise) then you can pick up a case and shoot the near exact same ammo.

 

[TxWelder35]

Only time I buy factory ammo is to get the brass. Ill buy a case every once in a while. I can reload my 260 for roughly 60 cents per round after I buy a case of factory ammo for the brass. I don't mind reloading, I enjoy it. In order for me to give up hand loading it would have to be pretty low cost, maybe $20/box? I know yall can't make money at that pricing.

Maybe consider doing group buys for components instead? I'm going through around 2k rounds per year. If we could get competitive group buy pricing on components I would be game.

This should be even easier for you guys since you should already have access to these components, no drama with waiting for other suppliers, no waiting for ammo to be made before it can be sold. Now you are still making money on people that reload and not writing off a huge swath of your market.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I don’t know why we're discussing reloading in this thread, but it’s a false argument to include your income making potential when talking about the cost of reloading. If you have the spare time to load, it’s no different than making your own dinner. Is it cheaper to make and eat your own food at home or by that logic is it cheaper to eat at a restaurant for every meal? The answer is that it is obviously cheaper to prepare your own food at home.

The same logic applies for any endeavor that involves the use of your non-working time. Unless you actually are going to spend all of those hours producing income, they are not valued at income making rates. Thus the widely used term “free time”.

Does growing your own food save money? Does fixing your own vehicle or home or mowing your own grass save you money? Unless you would otherwise actually be working and producing income then the answer is always yes.

I had to start loading my own match ammo in order to not go broke and still be able to shoot. I spent the better part of two years shooting purchased ammo, at the best rates I could find for decent ammo. I spent many thousands of dollars doing so. After spending about $1000 initial total investment for my loading equipment and initial loading supplies, I now save literally thousands of dollars every year by loading my own. I don’t love to do it, but it’s the only way I can afford to keep shooting any reasonable amount.

I decided a while ago not to go down the rabbit hole if chasing every caliber I shoot and to only focus only the volume of my match shooting and ELR rounds. All other calibers are purchased.

Because, I can either go out and get food and not be home cooking (I could be loading for example).

I could spend an hour between grill, sides, and washing dishes. Or I can order something and not worry about anything but eating.

I want a steak. At some point, that steak is “cheap” enough for me to not deal with going to store to buy the steak, prepping, cooking, and cleaning.

At a high enough price point, I don’t go out and I do all the above.

For some, reloading is the same and that’s why we are talking about it. Ammo is the same way. There is a zone where it’s priced right to go out to eat, and then there’s a point where we stay home and cook.

 

[Secant]

Because, I can either go out and get food and not be home cooking (I could be loading for example).

I could spend an hour between grill, sides, and washing dishes. Or I can order something and not worry about anything but eating.

I want a steak. At some point, that steak is “cheap” enough for me to not deal with going to store to buy the steak, prepping, cooking, and cleaning.

At a high enough price point, I don’t go out and I do all the above.

For some, reloading is the same and that’s why we are talking about it. Ammo is the same way. There is a zone where it’s priced right to go out to eat, and then there’s a point where we stay home and cook.

Ding ding ding!