Just thought I’d leave this here. Some guy that misses a lot, and gets highly average scores, that thinks he knows what he’s doing posted this.
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Rifle Scopes Zero Compromise Optic update
- Thread starter gebhardt02
- Start date
Great review bro thank you.I own the ZC 4X20 and just love it.Happy to hear the 4x20 is just as good as the 5X27,I been saving for another 4X20 that will be on a Vudoo trainer.
You shouldn't be so tough on the poor guy, he did a nice job on the review..........
You shouldn't be so tough on the poor guy, he did a nice job on the review..........
Haha thanks
Thanks! Really appreciate you watching. Definitely means a lot!
Just a heads up on anyone looking for a ZCO, the wait time has decreased quit a bit so anyone wanting to pre-order hit us up
I think I’ve seen or heard that guy before... ?. Seriously, finally had the opportunity tonight to watch the whole thing. Great review. And I would wholeheartedly agree with your statement that the big surprise from ZCO is that the ZC420 is every bit the scope of the 5-27, granted I didn’t get much time behind them but spent a few hours with the ZC420 with my K318i some Schmidt Ultra Shorts and a Minox and that ZCO was rockin everything in all the right ways. Maybe someday the ZCO will be in my future.
Haha thanks for watching brother, really appreciate it. It means a lot! Knowing you the 420 is your ticket.
I think you and ILya will conspire against me and cause me to buy a 4-20 before I actually need one
Also, I agree with what you said in the video about the sight picture, it's like going from a 36" screen to a 55". I believe the TT and the ZP5 both have a larger FOV, but the ZCO "feels" bigger due to the huge sight picture.
You know you need a ZC 4X20.It was not easy to spend that kind of cash on a scope but when i put the 4X20 on my rifle and started shooting I forgot about the pain of spending the cash.Now saving for another one.
I ordered a ZCO 420 yesterday from CS Tactical. Looking forward to getting to the range.
Now you too
I've seen the ZCO, both of them actually, but have more time with the ZC420, it is absolutely stunning and the best ultra short out (I did a review of a bunch recently), I just don't need an ultra short right now. Kind of like Noob's comments in his video, he bought the ZC420 but then sold it because he realized he would benefit more from the ZC527. That's kind of where I'm at right now, and besides I already have the Kahles K318i which did surprisingly well in comparison to the ZC420 except for FOV. I'm trying to sell my K318i to get a bigger scope (full size) but may have to take a huge loss to sell it so I may just keep it. I didn't see anything in the ZC527 that made me think that it is worlds better than the ZP5 5-25 I already own, yes the sight picture is amazing and the overall IQ is amazing but so is the ZP5, I actually like the MR4 better than the MPCT2 because of the dots in the tree instead of the solid lines (personal preference). That leaves the turrets, the ZCO turrets were amazing, some of the best I've felt, but I honestly don't think the ZP5 turrets are bad, so again, what is compelling me to get the ZCO other than the fact it is the new hotness on the market? Please understand, I am not bashing ZCO in any way, I agree with Noob in his video when he says the ZCO's are "worth" the $3500 price point, I completely agree, I don't think many scopes are worth that price, not when you consider the competition and the ZCO is the full package, I cannot find anything wrong with them in order to say, "they could have done better", I can nitpick of course but I can do that with any scope. Having seen them I can honestly say I think they are the best scope on the market right now under $4k, bar none; however, when I think of being able to pick up a relatively new ZP5 for about $2200, can I justify another $1400 for the ZCO and I really can't, not when the ZP5 is so good. Once things settle down a bit and hopefully ZCO will offer a mil/LE discount in the future, that's when I think I'll take another serious look at them, but there's too many other good scopes on the market right now to persuade me to not spend the extra money and that's my dilemma 
From what I've seen @CSTactical is more the one you need to worry about.I think you and ILya will conspire against me and cause me to buy a 4-20 before I actually need one
@wjm308 Unfortunately the only way that ZCO and dealers would be able to afford doing gov pricing is if they raise the MSRP drastically or find a way to make the scope cheaper as there is not much left to make on those scopes unlike the pricing structure of other much larger manufacturers. IMO they came in at this price point since they were a new company but offer an overall package that does compete with much more expensive optics.
On a separate note, we amazingly have one ZC527 MPCT2 unsold on the way to us. Someone who wants it call us quickly
On a separate note, we amazingly have one ZC527 MPCT2 unsold on the way to us. Someone who wants it call us quickly
Tell me about it, every time my phone rings and I see it's from CS Tactical I start to get nervous
Tell me about it, every time my phone rings and I see it's from CS Tactical I start to get nervous
I usually pull my wallet out before I pick up the call. Still recovering from the last two months! ?
That's exactly what Vortex did as well, but they had huge margins, more than any other manufacturer if I recall, the huge margins inspired dealers to sell the brand, while the scopes competed with other scopes that cost more. Vortex started in the early 2000's (though Mr. Hamilton had already been into optics for a while beforehand on the retail side) but look at them now, one of the largest sport optics manufacturers. This is how I see ZCO but at a much higher end, they hit the ground running and aimed high - think Hensoldt, Tangent Theta and Schmidt, and knocked a home run when they came to bat, great way to impress the fans. I am really hoping this is just the beginning of the game, that we'll see more down the road. I understand as a startup they must have enormous R&D costs, but over time as the brand gains momentum they start to recover and become profitable, but if a company really wants to honor Military and Law Enforcement, they find a way and it may not even be a cost reduction, there are other ways they could do this and promote/honor the people who serve our great nation. Tangent doesn't have this program, but I'm not too surprised given where they are, most every other mainstream optics manufacturer does this (Nightforce, Vortex, Schmidt, Leupold and Minox just to name a few), just saying it would be nice to see ZCO do this too at some point; not saying they have to, just saying it would be nice.
Not arguing, but I looked at it from a different perspective. The time to buy is now. When a brand establishes market value is when you start to see the price hikes. Right now, they are busting into the market place, so price point takes precedence. Then after establishing market share and brand value..... Now it's time to bust out another dollar bill y'all.
My guess is, this is the time when you'll see the other incentives employed...included Tenebraex covers, mil/LE discounts, etc. Due to less stringent margins and reduced risks of start-up. ZCO brought to market a winner, and they knew it, all they had to do was hit the right price point to get the ball rolling. Now once brand value gets established. The true value of these scopes, IMO will be closer to $4k, if not over. At least, this is what I'd do if I were steering the ship. Undercut the comp. by bringing a great product with enough margin to float my boat, establish market share, create brand value and recognition, then increase margins to reap the rewards for a job well done. Once a brand establishes a good brand value and recognition, it's game over folks--people will pay. Buy now--just my humble opinion. Time will tell what the market brings to fruition.
My guess is, this is the time when you'll see the other incentives employed...included Tenebraex covers, mil/LE discounts, etc. Due to less stringent margins and reduced risks of start-up. ZCO brought to market a winner, and they knew it, all they had to do was hit the right price point to get the ball rolling. Now once brand value gets established. The true value of these scopes, IMO will be closer to $4k, if not over. At least, this is what I'd do if I were steering the ship. Undercut the comp. by bringing a great product with enough margin to float my boat, establish market share, create brand value and recognition, then increase margins to reap the rewards for a job well done. Once a brand establishes a good brand value and recognition, it's game over folks--people will pay. Buy now--just my humble opinion. Time will tell what the market brings to fruition.
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Finally got to see one of these in person. I told myself not to, i tried, just lack self control. It's like a recovering alcoholic's friend saying hey come over and have a sip of pappy van winkle i just got. One sip wont kill you...
It was very brief as i was running short on time but man it gets so much right that idk that it gets anything wrong all things considering. I had them both at 20x. So for what little bit i had it next to the ZP5 at 7pm here at Gunline in Carthage. I thought the image was just a little more vibrant on the ZCO where as the ZP5 was more mute, IMHO more true tone, that said i think i preferred the tone of the ZCO. Resolution wise it was hard to discern a difference moving edge to edge looking at the 1100yd line. Both just "cut" through mirage that many scopes have issues with honestly. Really loved the MCPT2 i mean really loved it. It is the SKMR3 perfected. I think the main reason i want one though was the damn turret. It's no secret i'm picky as all get out when it comes to turret feel, especially past a price point. The ZP5 IMHO leaves a lot to be desired in that realm. If i could put a Kahles or ZCO turret on the ZP5 idk that i'd have a complaint with the optic.
But damnit if it's not tempting to offload some stuff and try to go ZCO. Used market is in the dumps right now for Minox tho lol so it's really not even in the cards.
It was very brief as i was running short on time but man it gets so much right that idk that it gets anything wrong all things considering. I had them both at 20x. So for what little bit i had it next to the ZP5 at 7pm here at Gunline in Carthage. I thought the image was just a little more vibrant on the ZCO where as the ZP5 was more mute, IMHO more true tone, that said i think i preferred the tone of the ZCO. Resolution wise it was hard to discern a difference moving edge to edge looking at the 1100yd line. Both just "cut" through mirage that many scopes have issues with honestly. Really loved the MCPT2 i mean really loved it. It is the SKMR3 perfected. I think the main reason i want one though was the damn turret. It's no secret i'm picky as all get out when it comes to turret feel, especially past a price point. The ZP5 IMHO leaves a lot to be desired in that realm. If i could put a Kahles or ZCO turret on the ZP5 idk that i'd have a complaint with the optic.
But damnit if it's not tempting to offload some stuff and try to go ZCO. Used market is in the dumps right now for Minox tho lol so it's really not even in the cards.
Now you've done it Will, the ZCO is the real deal. As good as the ZP5 is, when side by side with the ZCO as a whole package the ZCO just kicks ass, as they say
Thank you sir, didn't realize how good they were till i got them on the PC Iphone XS has it's moments that are downright impressive.
On a side note i want a 527 gonna have to hold off for the time being. ZP5 is certainly enough but those turrets on the ZCO....
One of the things that keeps popping up here is the price. Yep, it's $3600.00 US Dollars for the 5-27, but a:
Nightforce ATACR 7-35 mil-XT is 3600.00
Kahles 525i is 3299.00
Minox ZP5 5-25 is 3200.00
Tangent Theta 5-25 Gen3 XR is 4700ish
So, are they really that expensive? When price compared to everything else in its class, and a few that are not, I don't think so.
Just my .02 worth.
Nightforce ATACR 7-35 mil-XT is 3600.00
Kahles 525i is 3299.00
Minox ZP5 5-25 is 3200.00
Tangent Theta 5-25 Gen3 XR is 4700ish
So, are they really that expensive? When price compared to everything else in its class, and a few that are not, I don't think so.
Just my .02 worth.
I’ve had or have all 3 scopes you mention. I’ve actually got a 735 mil-xt that will be here Tuesday. I’m definitely excited because I love the reticle a lot. I’m not sure how much the military discount is, but if it’s substantial then I would personally look at how much ammo/reloading components I could buy with the difference. I’d rather shoot a lot more. That’s gonna help me at matches more than either scope. Both are top tier.
You are comparing retail pricing, do street pricing and there is more of a difference, but I understand what you're saying. If you're going to pay $3k for a NF will $600 more for the ZCO really break you if the ZCO has everything you want? I like what covertnoob said in one of his videos - "the ZCO is the scope that is actually worth its price", the other $3k scopes... maybe not so much.
I agree features and glass considering it's the best scope on the market right now in the tier 1 category. Even though TT might edge it out and have arguably better turrets i think the MPCT2 is just a better design than the Gen 3XR.
I own both mpct2 and gen3xr. The differences are fairly small.
I prefer the hash design of the .2, .4 .6 .8 of the mpct and the dots of the gen3xr
While it’s not a big deal, the small going to large .2 to .8 has of the gen3xr isn’t my favorite. But it’s not awful.
The tree is basically a user preference dots vs lines. I find them both perfectly functional.
For me, it comes down to the turrets and parallax. I run a theta on my AI because I have 5 barrels for it and the tool less turrets are awesome. I run a zcomp on my vudoo because of the parallax going to 25m.
I will say this, if zcomp ever makes a tool less turret, I’ll only own zcomps. If theta ever makes a 20-25 m/yd parallax, I’ll only own thetas. Until then, I’ll run both.
But I have been totally spoiled by both and won’t run anything else except them. I’m sitting on a 50% off minox code and I like these two optics so much, I’m considering using it on a spotter and not a zp5.
My only real complaint with the ZP5 is the turret. Personal preference but i really don't like it considering the cost of the optic. I'd rank it pretty low on the turrets i've felt and prefer. It's honestly reminiscent of a MK6.
I honestly like the turrets on the zp5. I’d rather have a super stiff turret like the minox so I never have to worry about it moving on me.
I find it kinda like trigger reset on a pistol. When I’m dryfiring with it slowly, I notice it. When I’m actually shooting, I don’t at all.
With the zp5, the turrets seem really stiff when messing with it. In a match, I never noticed it.
It’s not the stiffness that bothers me it’s the tactile clicks or lack there of. They’re just mushy to me compared to kahles ZCO or even my amg.
I wasn't crazy about them, but got used to them over time. The knurling is what irritated me the most and took the most getting used to. The lack of tactility made them quicker but at the expense of having to slow down to make sure you didnt go over whatever mil you wanted. I actually preferred the ZP5 turrets over the K525. The K525 tenths are way too close.
Street Price / Used Price / PX Price:
Nightforce ATACR 7-35 MIL-XT ~$3000
ZCO 527 MPCT2 $3600
TT525P Gen3XR $4200-4300
ZP5 525 MR4 ~$2300 (continuing to depreciate in the PX)
Kahles 525 SKMR3 LSW ~$2500-2600
The only model I havn't personally owned is the ZCO 527. For the price difference I still wouldn't even consider the K525 or ZP5. The ZCO and TT IMHO are that much noticeably better. The ATACR 7-35 is growing on me, but it isn't without flaws. Still jonesing for a TT525P Gen3XR or ZCO 527 MPCT2. I dont regret selling the gen2xr as I utilize the 0.2mil windage holds on the mil-c a lot, no more guessing.
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Whoa there, some of those prices are a wee bit low. Unless we are talking used/demo items haha
So funny thing i just got home and the ZP5 i got with the Mauser promotion has turrets that are 10x better than the one i traded my friend for. Funny really. I wonder if minox could make it like the new one. Didn’t get to the second rev dad and i went to eat.
That said my k525i and k318i are still probably my favorite turrets I’ve used. Dunno why but the spacing didn’t bother me at all.
Whoa there, some of those prices are a wee bit low. Unless we are talking used/demo items haha
Used / Pre-Loved / Demo / Show-room Demo / Range Demo / Blem
Edited original post to call it "Street Price / Used Price / PX Price" to avoid confusion
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Yeah as Ilya has stated there is some significant sample variance
Use TT and I am sure itll change your mind
A big shout out of thanks to CS the new 527MPCT2 to compliment my 420.
I just got it mounted up on my 338L setup at last light to dry fire on our local mule deer herd. Beautiful clarity, so easy for old eyes like mine to get behind.
Reticle very usable even w/o illumination in last few minutes...fabulous @ 600-700 yards 15-20X.
I just got it mounted up on my 338L setup at last light to dry fire on our local mule deer herd. Beautiful clarity, so easy for old eyes like mine to get behind.
Reticle very usable even w/o illumination in last few minutes...fabulous @ 600-700 yards 15-20X.
For those with experience with the minox zp5 and the zco, as far as eyebox ease how do the two compare. Have owned the minox and it was impressive but am intrigued by the 25m parallax on the zco for some 22lr use. My main question is if the zco is worth roughly $1500 more than a zp5.
Prior to Tangent releasing the Gen 3XR and ZCO showing up with their MPCT2 reticle, the Minox ZP5 w/ MR4 was at the top of the heap for me.
As for whether the ZCO is worth the extra bucks, only you can answer that.
For me it’s a resounding yes.
Will do, had to ready for archery opener today...but must say with my limited time with the 2 setups - ZCO420 on the 300N with 7” ultra is a great LR carry rifle for me; whereas the 527 on the 338L with Ultra can is the perfect tripod “overwatch rig” for LR ELk, etc.
For me $1500? Not necessarily retail to retail yes i go ZCO. If the ZP5 i just received is indication what’s regularly coming out of minox i really don’t have that many complaints. The turrets on it are much better than my ZP5 i got from my fiend which is the older model. Obviously i can’t say for certainty that it is my sample size is 2.
Right now given the promotion it’s hard to not say the ZP5 is the best scope in its current range. I mean we’re talking 2215 with a rifle. More like 1900ish after you sell or trade the m18 in. That’s not a knock to zco obviously anyone who’s seen my recent post knows i want that optic and regret not jumping on that train two years ago. But the ZP5 is an extraordinary bargain right now for quality scope it is and make no mistake it’s up there with the rest of the heavy hitters.
Right now given the promotion it’s hard to not say the ZP5 is the best scope in its current range. I mean we’re talking 2215 with a rifle. More like 1900ish after you sell or trade the m18 in. That’s not a knock to zco obviously anyone who’s seen my recent post knows i want that optic and regret not jumping on that train two years ago. But the ZP5 is an extraordinary bargain right now for quality scope it is and make no mistake it’s up there with the rest of the heavy hitters.
After reading 5RWills post I thought to clarify myself.
When I think of the Minox ZP5, I’m thinking of it as a $2800 scope street. What it costs this second is very temporary. Don’t know wth Minox was thinking with their recent move. Maybe to get more out there?
Don’t want to detract from the purpose of this thread though and that’s to say that the ZCO is amongst the finest scopes ever come to existence.
When I think of the Minox ZP5, I’m thinking of it as a $2800 scope street. What it costs this second is very temporary. Don’t know wth Minox was thinking with their recent move. Maybe to get more out there?
Don’t want to detract from the purpose of this thread though and that’s to say that the ZCO is amongst the finest scopes ever come to existence.
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Now, having both, I think that if Minox ups their game and replicates the turrets from either ZCO or TT, they will have the right to charge in the range of $3,400.00 to $3,600.00, comparable to ZCO. Having said that, ~ $2,100.00 to $2,200.00 for a ZP5 is pretty damned hard to pass up right now. That's ~ $1,400.00 adder to get to a ZCO and ~ $2,000.00 to get to a TT. It'll be sad to see if Minox doesn't pay attention (or, is ambivalent) and continues to do nothing other than whore up the market. Fundamentally, they are better than that.
Until Minox fixes their customer service issues and QC consistency, they don't even have a right to be charging what they do IMHO with the Razor Gen 2, ATACR, TT, etc. all being better values. If it takes 3-4 months to get a scope back and the manufacturer has enough problems that they get sent back pretty regularly, that's a complete deal-breaker IMHO. If you live in a place where you don't have to go across the pond for service, it would be much higher on the list. But here in the states, I just don't see it, ESPECIALLY given their significant sample variation and lack of good QC and consistent product quality.
All that being said, ZCO also seems like a much better value. There are very few ppl who can truly afford a ZP5 who can't also afford a ZCO, so when comparing the two, what does Minox do better than ZCO? In my estimation...nothing, right? Just price. So if you're willing to sacrifice on a number of fronts for a relatively small discount on the normal price for each, then that's up to you. But personally, if I'm willing to take a discount for less performance, I think I'd go ahead and drop down to the Razor Gen 2, which is another $500-$600 cheaper than the ZP5 even at the temporary ZP5 discounted prices.
At this time of life (for me) I don’t care what the ZCO costs. If priced higher than the TT I would still buy ZCO.
To say I am impressed is an extreme understatement.
To say I am impressed is an extreme understatement.
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