80,000 PSI capable actions for Sig Fury
- Thread starter Noobilicious
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.300 WSM and it's compatriots were exactly why I commented that it's an irrelevant question for bolt actions. Semi-autos have more restrictions on the action, particularly the bolt face, which is why I think there is potential in large frame semis to equal the performance of 300WSM.
Also, nice looking setup!
it will have the same recoil. Physics doesn't change. the semis have less recoil because energy is spent to move the bolt carrier, but as long as you're a locked breech and moving the same weight at the same velocity, your recoil impulse is identical
Every recoil calculator I've seen always takes powder quantity into account along with projectile weight and muzzle velocity.
The more powder, the more recoil, for the exact same MV and weight.
I'd imagine this has to do with inefficiencies and not converting all the burning powder into velocity for the projectile.
A good example is a 16" 8lb 30-06 vs a 26" 8lb 308, both same bullet. The 3006 will probably have a lower MV, for that extreme a barrel length difference, yet it will recoil more.
you've probably been looking at "felt recoil" which is different than "true recoil" felt recoil can change with several factors, including powder burn rates, but ultimately is just perceptions, the physical reality remains the same.
No, I'm looking at recoil velocity and energy. Both can be empirically measured. Both can be reasonably estimated by math alone.
The powder difference between a 140gr 6.5 saum load at 3000fps and a 140gr 277fury load at 3000 fps is a roughly a 10% reduction in recoil velocity and energy.
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20 grains less powder??
If they're rocking that cartridge in the 80,0000 psi range I'm betting it's using closer to 50 grains of powder.
My load with 144 bergers is using 59 grains for a MV of 2925 from a 16" barrel recoil is already stupid light but the suppressor makes it silly easy to shoot.
At any rate running a cartridge in the 80,000 psi range isn't going to buy you anything in terms of barrel life either, so I have to agree that this cartridge brings nothing to the table for bolt guns.
Not bashing on the concept I actually find it really cool just not practical for most applications
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an example of a 200gr berger with a sig cased .308 loaded to maximum mag length (2.83")
some definite potential in there
some definite potential in there
No, it won't have the same recoil. Recoil is a product of the conservation of momentum, basically the Vbullet x Mbullet + Vgas x Mgas = Vgun x Mgun.
Mgas will be higher with a Magnum burning 20gr more powder, Vgas will be related to the residual pressure when the bullet leaves the muzzle. When I played around modeling the Fury in QL when it was announced a long time ago, the only way to match advertised pressure and velocity in 7mm-08 ish case capacity was with fairly fast powders, which peak and fall faster than a big load of slower magnum powder in a given bore volume. All of that to say, the residual pressure at 16" for a 65ksi magnum, could be similar or even higher than the 80ksi Fury. With higher Mgas and probably relatively similar Vgas the total recoil for the magnum should be higher than the Fury.
I think any suppressor that can handle a 16" 7mm WSM should have no problem with the Fury. In terms of residual pressure at the muzzle, something like a heavy load of RL26 in a short barrel Creedmoor is actually pretty stout.
I should go hit myself in the head with a physics textbook, or just stop posting when I've not had sufficient tea to do more than stay awake at my job.....
80,000 PSI and 277 Fury caliber capable semi-auto rifle is up for sale on Sig website at a jaw dropping price of $7,999.
www.sigsauer.com
MCX-SPEAR
First Production Run Special Edition Now Available at Select Dealers MSRP: $7999.00
www.sigsauer.com
Supressor included at that price? 13" 7tw barrel, that's definitely pushing the envelope. I wonder what the muzzle pressure is at it enters the can, HAS to be really high.80,000 PSI and 277 Fury caliber capable semi-auto rifle is up for sale on Sig website at a jaw dropping price of $7,999.
MCX-SPEAR
First Production Run Special Edition Now Available at Select Dealers MSRP: $7999.00
Seems like $8k is more than the sum of it's parts.80,000 PSI and 277 Fury caliber capable semi-auto rifle is up for sale on Sig website at a jaw dropping price of $7,999.
MCX-SPEAR
First Production Run Special Edition Now Available at Select Dealers MSRP: $7999.00
When you have to carry 1000 into a battle arena, which would you rather carry?
Well I'd love for someone to share load data but for now what we have to go on is that it's the same capacity as the 308.
Looking at 7-08 140 grain load data many powders are listed in the 45-49 grain range..
So yeah at 80,000 psi from a case with slightly more capacity I'd say 45-50 grains behind a .277 140 is entirely plausible
Read the reviews at the bottom of that page.80,000 PSI and 277 Fury caliber capable semi-auto rifle is up for sale on Sig website at a jaw dropping price of $7,999.
MCX-SPEAR
First Production Run Special Edition Now Available at Select Dealers MSRP: $7999.00
Epic.
Powder weight and energy delivered during the burn process don’t have a perfectly linear relationship amongst different powder chemistries.
Powder burn rates are regulated by the shape of the kernels and the usage of combustion inhibitors which a higher maximum pressure will allow you to use less of. Thus more energetic powder in total.
Powder burn rates are regulated by the shape of the kernels and the usage of combustion inhibitors which a higher maximum pressure will allow you to use less of. Thus more energetic powder in total.
Probably a little more than the 308 for capacity. It's like a 270-08AI for the case. Less body taper, 30 instead of 20 degree shoulder, but not 40 like a real AI.
Unless things have changed....from what I heard a while back....the ammo that is available to the military will not be available to the general public. Not sure if that has changed or not.
Not poking a dog or trying to start any fight....but you guys better watch what you think and say about pressure. You think of running ammo at 120k or 150k psi....and I'll guarantee something with the gun is going to come a part/fail. Until I see testing to say otherwise.
I've seen guns and barrels and have pieces and parts in my hands to prove it that when you start hitting those pressures...something is coming a part or is going to fail!
Even on ammunition pressure test barrels (breech end is a full 2" o.d. on the barrel) I've gotten barrels back to repair the pressure test port where they accidentally loaded the ammo to around 120k psi. It blew the transducer out of the test barrel and lodged it into the concrete ceiling of the test room. Yes you can argue that it's because of the port/transducer was maybe a weak area but think of this. I don't know of anyone running a 2" diameter breech end barrel on any standard bolt gun or semi auto rifle. You run insane pressures....and I again reiterate something is going to give some where. Might be the lugs on the bolt, might be the receiver, might be the barrel.....etc....
Guys be safe with what your doing or even think of doing! That's all I'm trying to say here.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Not poking a dog or trying to start any fight....but you guys better watch what you think and say about pressure. You think of running ammo at 120k or 150k psi....and I'll guarantee something with the gun is going to come a part/fail. Until I see testing to say otherwise.
I've seen guns and barrels and have pieces and parts in my hands to prove it that when you start hitting those pressures...something is coming a part or is going to fail!
Even on ammunition pressure test barrels (breech end is a full 2" o.d. on the barrel) I've gotten barrels back to repair the pressure test port where they accidentally loaded the ammo to around 120k psi. It blew the transducer out of the test barrel and lodged it into the concrete ceiling of the test room. Yes you can argue that it's because of the port/transducer was maybe a weak area but think of this. I don't know of anyone running a 2" diameter breech end barrel on any standard bolt gun or semi auto rifle. You run insane pressures....and I again reiterate something is going to give some where. Might be the lugs on the bolt, might be the receiver, might be the barrel.....etc....
Guys be safe with what your doing or even think of doing! That's all I'm trying to say here.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
For certain there are things that can be done to help isolate the pressure and contain it. Steel head composite cases, sure. The brass head is typically the failure point once you start getting much over 85-95ksi. And usually it's the head blowing out that releases gas into the action that causes even more damage...
However, I'm on the same train of thought as Frank. At 80ksi you're cutting out margin for material properties. If everything goes as intended it's great, but the pipe bomb is that much spicier if there's an obstruction, or a manufacturing/material defect in a case head, etc... We'll see how it plays out but you can bet money that people are going to fuck this up. People are already screwing it up at 55-65ksi, and those kabooms are plenty spicy as is.
However, I'm on the same train of thought as Frank. At 80ksi you're cutting out margin for material properties. If everything goes as intended it's great, but the pipe bomb is that much spicier if there's an obstruction, or a manufacturing/material defect in a case head, etc... We'll see how it plays out but you can bet money that people are going to fuck this up. People are already screwing it up at 55-65ksi, and those kabooms are plenty spicy as is.
Slow down, Lena! That stuff is 4 bucks per round!
You know far more about barrels and materials than we ever will Frank, so thank you for sharing your thoughts!
One of my friends at Sig mentioned that they are using harder types of steel to handle 80K PSI. Not sure if it is just corporate talk, but we shall see in the next year or two.
I'm not exactly sure what they are using but I know it is different. They have also bought the 400MODBB material from us for doing R&D / prototype work as well.
Standard material from what I've been hearing doesn't hold up well at all.
That was what I was thinking when I saw a video of the new SIG Spear running their high pressure ammo (6.8) on full auto!
They sold some steel head ammo back in January. I guess for the couple of spears they sold. Nothing else since then.
Just saying. $75/100 after coupon code. https://americanreloading.com/277-fury/3249-277-fury-sig-primed-hybrid-case-100ct.html
$80 for 20? Shoot them 2x with something else. It’s cheaper…
I'll let you know what kinds of chrono readings I get out of them after re-necking to .308
assuming they actually deliver
and assuming my TC compass II survives the event.
I have been skeptical of the 277 Fury from the beginning. May work in a bolt gun but in a semi automatic battle rifle containing 80,000 psi in rapid fire for 500+ rounds in a firefight without the gun overheating rapidly and failing seems to me a tall order. Maybe my skepticism is misplaced. What do you guys think who have had real combat experience?
nothing to do with combat experience there, its all in the metallurgy. The higher nickel content in the alloys used for the Spear barrel gives it better heat stress and wear resistance. Same reason the alloys are used in aerospace in high heat applications (usually in engine components)
the reason they haven't been used before now is expense, as regular stainless is cheaper and easier to work with.
the Ruger SFAR is another example of using better alloys than "standard" to achieve things regular stainless isn't capable of (barrel extension made of Aermet or similar high-nickel alloy)
I mean, there's videos of them putting more than 500 rounds through a full auto spear... with a suppressor on it.
I suspected there had to be a materials solution. Would be interesting to bore scope one of those barrels before and after long strings of full auto fire. Thank you for shedding some light on this subject.
In my opinion this is just part 2 of Stoner's legacy coming to fruition, with companies finally being forced to explore materials that are standard use in other industries but haven't been used in firearms until now (due to cost) to remain competitive. Consumer demand for innovation is there, and so far both the Spear and SFAR are proving there is a market for items carrying a slightly higher pricetag if the extra performance is there.
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