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6gt
- Thread starter Dthomas3523
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I'm trying to figure out how any of that is relevant to the discussion about that particular load? Not coming up with anything that makes sense, other than maybe communications got crossed somewhere. If you go back and look, I and 406Shootist were replying to WyomingShooter, but you seemed to reply to us that you didn't think CJ73's load was slow?
"This time of year" has nothing to do with it - the discussion was about a specific load using H4350 which is very temp stable, not some sensitive ball powder. No way it lost 150 fps due to "this time of year" - again referring to WyomingShooter's load.
Also don't see how other people loading down for PRS, or Dasher loads, or accuracy relating to speed have anything to do with this. The discussion was about the velocity difference one person saw with a specific load that was a lot slower than the exact same load for others of us.
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There is no "optimal" powder across the board for any cartridge. It just doesn't work like that.
If your H4350 load was slower than your Varget load with the 112 MB in 6GT, then your Varget load was at higher pressure. End of story. That may be what you're after, but it'd be a mistake to think that Varget was capable of more velocity than H4350 in this particular combo; for some reason your H4350 load was at lower pressure, giving lower velocity.
Again, nothing at all wrong with loading down if that's what you're trying to do, but that's not what the comments regarding your load were about.
Well, I have abandoned the 107gr SMK/Varget attempt in my barrel. I got okay-ish accuracy, but never anything that knocked my socks off. I don't think that I had a single 5-shot group that exceeded an inch...but I had several 4 shot groups in the .2s with an unexplained flier that opened it up to 3/4". This isn't my first or second rodeo, and I exhausted seating depth and charge weight...and I'm not at the point where I want to start goofing with things like the friction interference.
The barrel will absolutely shoot, and it certainly likes the 105gr Hybrids. I just don't have any on hand. With a factory load and slight seating depth tweak I averaged right at .400" for multiple 5-shot groups, and a 2/3 MOA 10-shot group at 655 yards. But they were also loaded with what either looked like N150 or Reloader 16. I'll definitely investigate that load later.
I'm going to give the 108gr ELD-M and H4350 a try next. Its what i have a lot of. I've always had acceptable accuracy with the ELD-M in my other barrels at .020 - .030 off, so I'll start there and at 37.0gr and work my way up to 38.0. Hopefully it gives me a little hope until I can get my hands on the 105 hybrids.
If anyone has any 108 ELD and H4350 experience, I'd love to hear what works for you.
The barrel will absolutely shoot, and it certainly likes the 105gr Hybrids. I just don't have any on hand. With a factory load and slight seating depth tweak I averaged right at .400" for multiple 5-shot groups, and a 2/3 MOA 10-shot group at 655 yards. But they were also loaded with what either looked like N150 or Reloader 16. I'll definitely investigate that load later.
I'm going to give the 108gr ELD-M and H4350 a try next. Its what i have a lot of. I've always had acceptable accuracy with the ELD-M in my other barrels at .020 - .030 off, so I'll start there and at 37.0gr and work my way up to 38.0. Hopefully it gives me a little hope until I can get my hands on the 105 hybrids.
If anyone has any 108 ELD and H4350 experience, I'd love to hear what works for you.
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What was your seating and charge weight/velocity range with the 107's?
27" Krieger
33.0 - 2,860 FPS - ES up to frigging 30
33.2 - 2,876 FPS - ES still about 25
33.4 - 2,888 FPS - ES still about 25
33.6 - 2,906 FPS (best accuracy) - ES 16 SD 8
33.8 - 2,924 FPS (next best) - ES 14 SD 6
^ These are only small sample sizes of 5 shots.
I ran off: .010, 020, .030, .035, .040, .045, and .050. I had the most luck at .040 (which is what I ran the charge weight test at) but was throwing the single flier, so I tried in and out .005 but without luck as that opened it up further.
There was zero pressure signs, but 33.8 was starting to open up. 2,900 was my target velocity.
Historically, my rifles/barrels that shoot Varget well will maintain an ES of 15 or less across an entire charge range. I've got plenty of powders to try on hand (N150, RL-16, H4350, SW LR, RL-15 etc...). Once I get this round of brass shot and prepped again I'll probably try after the 107s one more time but with a different powder.
If you decide to play with the 107s and even the Hybrids start off at .050 off and work deeper and I bet you'll hit the sweet spot at .070 off...the problem you'll run into is getting into the neck/shoulder with the short free bore.
I'd just run the 4350 or the varget by the time you run through several different powders you'll be half way through the barrel...I'm running a 1.25" 27", Alpha brass, CCI450s and at 37g H4350 I'm right at 2950-2960, 37.5g is 2980-2990 and 38.1 is 2995-3005 with 107s at .060 off...at .040 off it shot like shit, at .060 off it tightened up and I'm will to bet .070 off is money, if its not raining in the morning I will finish this load up.
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Yeah, I was touching at ~ 2.540 OAL (.120 freebore and I can't remember exactly, but it was within .005 of 2.540). You are probably right about getting into the neck. The longer ogive of the hybrid allowed me to run those a bit closer to the lands and get great accuracy...that is why I am going to give the 108 ELD a try.
I've only shot a few of the 108 ELD but if I remember they are pretty long...no matter what 105 class bullet I still think the .120 free bore is to short but then I do not like being close to the lands.
Yup, pretty much every bullet I have run is close to or at neck shoulder junction at .045. I will be looking to throat my next barrel a little. All mine are a .120 freebore. This is a 115 DTAC at .045
I'd go .180 with the DTACs...If I end up sticking with the GT I will have a reamer made with a .180 free bore.
Sir - Thanks for your note. It appears my post was unclear. My bad. I'm not chasing velocity. My interest is in reducing my SD and ES. In my limited 6GT experience, it seems that's easier done with Varget than with H4350 - at least with 105 - 112 grain bullets.
To add:
I ran the entire 2022 PRS season with my 6 GT going 2635 fps. It did very well. SDs between 3-11 through the life of a Hawk Hill Heavy Comp barrel at 22"
I wouldn't worry about slow speed in a 6 GT.
Just to give you an idea where mine is at. Chambered with a Manson .120 freebore then throated out to .185 the best we could tell by measuring it. 115 DTACS at .061 off that measurement.
Just a quick ladder once I got 225 rounds on the barrel just to see velocity. H4350 and no pressure signs
I'm just about hanging on by a thread fighting the urge to buy a hand-throating reamer... I just haven't turned the corner in my head of how to gauge exactly how far to ream accurately..? (So far, my best plan seems to be to just use a dummy round and the same "Deep Creek method" I use to find my distance to the lands... but it might be a painfully slow process that way.)
Ideally, I'd like to be able to load/jump .100" off the lands if I want, with whatever bullet I choose, and using my bad-at-math, probably flawed, calculations... I think that would mean something like ~.210" of freebore.
I suppose I could take a barrel to a gunsmith with a lathe... but I like to avoid gunsmiths and prefer to work on my guns myself if possible, as IME many gunsmiths seem to be more snake-oil salesmen than rocket scientist, with most as dumb or dumber than me lol.
On one hand, I really do feel like using a healthy jump does do great things for one's vertical consistency downrange, but on the other hand, I'm not completely convinced reaming and more freebore is the only answer... as just simply seating bullets deeper into the case and purposefully breaking the "bearing surface above the neck/shoulder junction" reloading "rule" has seemed to work just fine too for me (no donuts, no issues, etc)... but I could've just been lucky, and luck tends to run out lol.
IDK..?
Ideally, I'd like to be able to load/jump .100" off the lands if I want, with whatever bullet I choose, and using my bad-at-math, probably flawed, calculations... I think that would mean something like ~.210" of freebore.
I suppose I could take a barrel to a gunsmith with a lathe... but I like to avoid gunsmiths and prefer to work on my guns myself if possible, as IME many gunsmiths seem to be more snake-oil salesmen than rocket scientist, with most as dumb or dumber than me lol.
On one hand, I really do feel like using a healthy jump does do great things for one's vertical consistency downrange, but on the other hand, I'm not completely convinced reaming and more freebore is the only answer... as just simply seating bullets deeper into the case and purposefully breaking the "bearing surface above the neck/shoulder junction" reloading "rule" has seemed to work just fine too for me (no donuts, no issues, etc)... but I could've just been lucky, and luck tends to run out lol.
IDK..?
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Also your right in the ball park with your free bore to jump .100.
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Not at all. Just trying to figure out what you were talking about. At first glance it looked like a poorly considered objection to our comments about velocity of a specific load, but on further consideration maybe you just mixed up which member we were talking to?
If that's how it's working out in your barrel, go for what works for sure - a lot of it depends on the velocity range you are looking for. That pretty well illustrates what I said about no one powder being optimal - if your goal is lower velocity with small SD, then a faster burn rate like Varget will be optimal for that application, while a goal of higher velocity (with equally low SD) will mean a different powder is optimal. One thing Varget does get you is lower charge weights, which equates to a little less recoil.
Personally I've noticed that H4350 is better suited to the heavy bullets than Varget, and got single digit SD from day one when loading in the 2850-2950 range with those 112's, but I started off with a goal of finding a node between 2800-2950 based on the ballistics I was looking for. However if your load is at lower pressure for some reason then you may likely see higher SD with H4350 than with Varget, which will peak pressure a little earlier and higher, and likely be more consistent at lower speeds. In my barrel the top end for the 112 over H4350 seems to be somewhere around 3,000 fps or higher, while Varget seems to be getting pretty hot even in the 2900 range, just my observations FWIW.
I'm still a little surprised how slow that H4350 load was in your barrel, when the identical load in at least 2 other barrels here runs about 150 fps faster, but that ~22" barrel does explain some of it. A looser chamber might account for the rest of the difference, which would also drop pressure and explain your higher SD. Just spitballing though.
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Impact
Proof 1-7 Comp contour @ 26.75”
.185 freebore
115 DTACS
Alpha brass
CCI 450
H4350 @ 35.8gr
BTO 1.9825 (which would be .061 jump off original chambering)
310 rounds on the barrel.
5 shots at 501yds to true velocity on Kestrel. Trued out at 2810fps
Proof 1-7 Comp contour @ 26.75”
.185 freebore
115 DTACS
Alpha brass
CCI 450
H4350 @ 35.8gr
BTO 1.9825 (which would be .061 jump off original chambering)
310 rounds on the barrel.
5 shots at 501yds to true velocity on Kestrel. Trued out at 2810fps
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Well, piss.
27" Krieger, M24, 1:8
108gr ELD-M
Alpha brass
Fed 205MAR
H4350
1.962 CBTO / 2.524ish OAL
Decided to try H4350 and the 108gr ELD-M in this barrel. Made an arbitrary guess at .025 off as the ELDs always seem to shoot well somewhere between .020 - .040 for me. I went what I thought was "safe" on the charge weight range, and immediately exceeded my velocity goal of 2,925 - 2,950 on the very first weight (37.2).
Making matters worse, I managed to let a round slip low on that first group too
. The comp trigger on my AT-X is just too low for my numb fingers.
37.4 and I got a bit of a sticky bolt lift, and 37.6 raised an ejector mark on the brass.. I called it good there.
I'll probably drop down to 37.0 and play with seating depth a touch.
Not what I wanted, but it is difficult to get too upset when I have yet to fire a group that exceeded MOA regardless of bullet and powder.
27" Krieger, M24, 1:8
108gr ELD-M
Alpha brass
Fed 205MAR
H4350
1.962 CBTO / 2.524ish OAL
Decided to try H4350 and the 108gr ELD-M in this barrel. Made an arbitrary guess at .025 off as the ELDs always seem to shoot well somewhere between .020 - .040 for me. I went what I thought was "safe" on the charge weight range, and immediately exceeded my velocity goal of 2,925 - 2,950 on the very first weight (37.2).
Making matters worse, I managed to let a round slip low on that first group too
. The comp trigger on my AT-X is just too low for my numb fingers.37.4 and I got a bit of a sticky bolt lift, and 37.6 raised an ejector mark on the brass.. I called it good there.
I'll probably drop down to 37.0 and play with seating depth a touch.
Not what I wanted, but it is difficult to get too upset when I have yet to fire a group that exceeded MOA regardless of bullet and powder.
^Redemption...maybe.
Pulled my last two loads, dropped charges, and shot them. 37.0 looks promising, but one 5-shot group is a fluke. I was getting pretty excited though when the first three shots all went into the same exact hole..
I literally started scanning the target thinking I had wild fliers.
36.8 dropped one right that was unexplained, and the left flier was probably due to that bullet having a jacked up tip that I created when I pulled it (inertial). It had a pretty good lip put in it.
One group does not make a load, so I've loaded a few more at 37.0 H4350, and have played with seating depth on a few of them.
Pulled my last two loads, dropped charges, and shot them. 37.0 looks promising, but one 5-shot group is a fluke. I was getting pretty excited though when the first three shots all went into the same exact hole..
I literally started scanning the target thinking I had wild fliers.
36.8 dropped one right that was unexplained, and the left flier was probably due to that bullet having a jacked up tip that I created when I pulled it (inertial). It had a pretty good lip put in it.
One group does not make a load, so I've loaded a few more at 37.0 H4350, and have played with seating depth on a few of them.
I’m on my third barrel and in that time I’ve used 109 hybrids, 109 ELDMS , 115 DTACS, Varget. RL15.5 and H4350 and all those combos have shot exceptionally well in the 2775-2850fps range.
Wife's GT just went over 2k rounds. Adjusted jump for erosion and added some powder. Still shooting great. 109 LRHT and RL 15.5. And this was her shooting. 12th firing on Alpha OCD brass.
I still think RL15.5 is the perfect powder for the GT too bad you can’t hardly find it and the price being so high.
Great stuff. Thanks! What's been your experience with the "TS" feature of RL 15.5? Here in the Big Empty, I can expect to shoot in temps from + 10F to + 85F. Thanks again.
It was still shooting good, but velocity dropped 30 - 40 fps and it was grouping in the .4s.
It has not been an issue. I have been very happy with the 15.5 so far. We have shot in the 30s to 90s without any issues, it is very consistent.
Does it build mad carbon rings like rl16? I have a bunch of 15.5, just haven't tried it.
Not in our experience. I have run lots of both and only had issues when I did not clean regularly. We clean every 150 - 200 rounds now and have not seen any issues with carbon. I had a nasty carbon ring (many years ago) with 16 but it was because I did not clean for 800 rounds - ruined the barrel.
Also, how often are you annealing the Alpha brass and how are the primer pockets holding up? I'm on my 9th loading and while not dropping primers, they sure are easy to seat.
Anneal every firing. Still cannot get the go gauge all the way in the pocket, only goes half way.
Not what I was hoping for. I did a small seating depth test with the 108gr ELD-M and H4350. Unfortunately I just didn't get the accuracy I was looking for. I have it with the 105gr Hybrids, but the 107gr SMK and 108gr ELD-M are a bit lacking.
I'm confident that I've exhausted reasonable attempts. Velocity, ES and SD are good, but I'm hunting for better accuracy.
No called fliers, those two that pushed way out on the first and last group were solid shots.
I'm confident that I've exhausted reasonable attempts. Velocity, ES and SD are good, but I'm hunting for better accuracy.
No called fliers, those two that pushed way out on the first and last group were solid shots.
Never tried 108eld cuz their bc sucks, but I bet they shoot low to mid 2900s jumping 50k. 107smk do very well at same velocity jumping 40k with N150 in my woman's rifle.
Question:
I ran the factory Eagle Eye Ammo over my chronograph, and got 2,967 FPS with an ES of 12 and SD of 4 (105gr Hybrids, and it shoots well). Barrel is a 27" Krieger.
^ I pulled two rounds and weighed charges, and they were both only 33.5gr. I'm at 37.2gr of H4350 to get that same velocity. I was thinking before when I looked at the powder granules that it might be Reloader 16...but that seems like the charge weight and velocity don't match for RL-16. Anybody try N540 in their GT? What kind of weights to velocities were you getting?
My apologies for the newbie question. This is my first attempt in the 6GT. I'm a huge fan of the 6.5x47L, but I wanted to try something different.
I ran the factory Eagle Eye Ammo over my chronograph, and got 2,967 FPS with an ES of 12 and SD of 4 (105gr Hybrids, and it shoots well). Barrel is a 27" Krieger.
^ I pulled two rounds and weighed charges, and they were both only 33.5gr. I'm at 37.2gr of H4350 to get that same velocity. I was thinking before when I looked at the powder granules that it might be Reloader 16...but that seems like the charge weight and velocity don't match for RL-16. Anybody try N540 in their GT? What kind of weights to velocities were you getting?
My apologies for the newbie question. This is my first attempt in the 6GT. I'm a huge fan of the 6.5x47L, but I wanted to try something different.
.040 off was actually where the 107s shot best in my rifle too. I just couldn't shake the 20% fliers that would open the group from a .3 to a .6...I'm probably just pushing them too hard. Usually a small seating depth change knocks that crap out, but it just made it worse in this case.
I had 200 of the 108gr ELD-M on hand to tinker with until I found some more Hybrids. I've found the Hybrids, so I'm abandoning this combo.
No worse than any other powder but I also clean mine after ever match. So around every 120 rounds or so. I did feel like it was a tad dirtier than Varget.
How much 4350 with the 107s and what was the farthest off the lands you tried?
Sorry to keep asking questions, but how much throat erosion did you measure?
That would be about where I was at velocity -wise with Varget, but the Eagle Eye kernels are black, and not that Varget-gray. I probably should have stated that.
I used Varget with the 107s, and I'm left thinking that perhaps my barrel likes the slower burning powders. I went from 33.0 - 33.8, and the ES and SD were pretty crap until I got up to 33.6, where they dropped in half to about 15/7, and stayed there. H4350 gave me much tighter ES/SD across the entire range.
I ran the 107s from .010 - .050 off. Best accuracy was at .040. By .050 off I'm under 2.500 OAL, so I didn't continue with it. If they run better at .060+, I'll have to start over. I'm not opposed to that.
Will probably give H4350 and the 107s a try at some point.
I'm a component hoarder and I have a half dozen rifles that use similar components, so I'm literally sitting on a bunch of Varget, N150, RL-16, H4350, and 3-4 other less popular powders in that range. It's just a matter of tinkering around until I land on the right combo.
Any insight is appreciated.
Seating test with 107s 5 each at 100yds….steel 550yds 5 rounds
4350, alpha, CCI 450s, 27” barrel .180 freebore
All mine are 0.170 cept the womans, and a barrel I bought second hand. I now have 6 on hand and have burned a few lol. I def prefer the long freebore.
Years ago I'd start close...like at or maybe .005 off then work back. When Mark Gordon did the seating testing in 2020 I think I had just replaced a 6BRA barrel and thought I'd try what he recommended. I started with a known load in my BRA and started seating at .050 off back to .080 off .010 at a time...I wish Ida kept the pics.....050 to .070 all shot 1 hole...not ragged but 1 hole... .080 started to open up but was a tight clover so I have been starting seating testing at .040 off every since and will work back to .080 and just about every time it ends up at .070-.080 I have never made .002-.005 jumps always .010 at a time.
