For the Love of God, GI Joe and John Wayne.... cleaning and abrasive cleaners
- Thread starter Frank Green
- Start date
In the old days, it was felt that the best way to clean out the built up carbon in a vehicles engine’s cylinders was to take it from to 90 as fast as it would go.
I suppose the best way to clean carbon out of a barrel…….(I will not put the recipe because at least one idiot will read it, use and and get himself hurt, so the rest of us will just have to read between the lines)
Oh, the last time my father tried blowing out the carbon, was with our 1958 Ford, blew out both mufflers.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs, and maybe it doesn't really matter, but isopropyl alcohol isn't going to neutralize CLR. The main active ingredient in CLR is Lactic Acid. You'd need a base to "neutralize" it. IPA is acting more of a flush, but it's not deactivating the CLR.
I also wouldn't go trying to use something basic to try and truly neutralize CLR. Depending on the strength of the base it could be a little exothermic, and then you're left with some type of salt in the barrel that need to be removed.
I also wouldn't go trying to use something basic to try and truly neutralize CLR. Depending on the strength of the base it could be a little exothermic, and then you're left with some type of salt in the barrel that need to be removed.
Solvents within oil based solution ,allows cleaning action to cling to the bore surface and filling isn't necessary . You most certainly can fill it ,drain used solution place in a metal container and reuse it at a later date . Parts and Brake cleaners are also effective solvents ,if one is opposed to using water based products . Duration varies but generally 20-120 minutes is more than adequate . As for acids ,what do they do too metals , ETCH which negates smoothing bores so pretty counter productive ,Eh .
Excellent post.
Anything different for a rimfire ? Some people are saying the lube/wax on 22lr match ammo is a protection from rust. Any truth? Many barrels only see BT carbon remover and sometimes no cleaning for a while and I'm wondering if a bit of oil down the bore is necessary for storage.
Anything different for a rimfire ? Some people are saying the lube/wax on 22lr match ammo is a protection from rust. Any truth? Many barrels only see BT carbon remover and sometimes no cleaning for a while and I'm wondering if a bit of oil down the bore is necessary for storage.
I DON'T clean .22 RF bores . Took an inordinate amount to ammo to restore accuracy ,after I foolishly decided to clean a 1936 NRA Target Master ,aka Remington model 41 and J C Higgins/ Marlin model 101 that Pop bought new . Both shoot accurately but require bore fouling too do so . Bought a few guns off of a long ago deceased Stock Wangler who worked Movie sets in addition to popular TV Westerns . Have Gun ,Maverick , Rawhide ,Big Valley ,and his last stint was Gunsmoke . Anyway Ole Lance was quite a character himself .
@Frank Green
Would Lucasoil CLP be an effective replacement for Hoppes? Reason I ask is I have a .375 CT barrel that shoots really well when it’s really dirty. I started putting Hoppes in the barrel after each range session and patching it out prior to shooting. When I push the patches out I noticed a good amount of copper fouling being removed and when I shot the rifle my 6 fps ES went to the 20s and groups went from 1/2 MOA to barely 1 MOA. It would then take 20 or so rounds for me to get back in the 2888 velocity node the gun likes. So would the CLP (which shouldn’t remove copper) be able to protect the bore as well as the Hoppes?
On every gun except the .375 the Hoppes TTP works great BTW.
Would Lucasoil CLP be an effective replacement for Hoppes? Reason I ask is I have a .375 CT barrel that shoots really well when it’s really dirty. I started putting Hoppes in the barrel after each range session and patching it out prior to shooting. When I push the patches out I noticed a good amount of copper fouling being removed and when I shot the rifle my 6 fps ES went to the 20s and groups went from 1/2 MOA to barely 1 MOA. It would then take 20 or so rounds for me to get back in the 2888 velocity node the gun likes. So would the CLP (which shouldn’t remove copper) be able to protect the bore as well as the Hoppes?
On every gun except the .375 the Hoppes TTP works great BTW.
Hmmmm?
I've used the Lucas as a preservative but not for a cleaner in any way. So I can't give you a definite answer one way or another.
I get what your saying that the barrel likes to be dirty for consistency and I'm following what your doing but I have to throw a but in here....
Depending on how much and or how fast the copper fouling builds up... after x amount of time if the copper fouling is heavy/keeps building up... I think at some point in time you will have accuracy issues that way also. Once you have that accuracy problem due to the copper and carbon build up... your really going to have to work at it to get the bore back to any consistency again. Just keep that in mind.
Pay attention to the gun... it'll tell you what it needs cleaning wise etc... you just have to learn how to read it. Sounds like your doing that at least to some extent already.
First, I’m not a competitive shooter, so I’m not putting thousands of rounds through my barrels each year; probably less than 500 in the most used rifle. Also, the rifles I’m using the about to be described technique in are either hunting guns that are shot very little after load development, or have chrome lined barrels, or have known good custom barrels on them.
Anyway, I’ve not been cleaning copper out of them after break-in for the past two years and so far it’s working for me. I use Boretech C4 Carbon remover to clean the fowling out, I only use patches I don’t use brushes, then run a couple dry patches and oil with Slip 2000 EWL at the end. I’m sure at some point I’ll have to clean the copper out, but so far I haven’t seen a degradation of accuracy. The other thing is that neither of my PVA barrels are copper whores, it just doesn’t seem to build up much. I have a Savage Hog 308 that badly clings to everything that goes down the barrel and is a bitch to clean, even the powder fowling out of. It doesn’t really shoot anything that well, so I’m letting the copper fill in the dozer tracks and will see if that helps; we shall see, I don’t really have any hope, but who knows. It’s a solid 1.5 MOA gun, so much for nasty looking Savage barrels shooting “lights out”
.Give C4 and Slip 2000 EWL a try, it might work. Also, the Slip is a mild cleaner, supposedly, of fowling and it protects, so you might start with just it.
Good luck.
Frank thank you and will do.
Is the Lucas oil good as a preservative for the bore?
I’d say yes. Haven’t seen anything to say it wouldn’t work good.
I still primarily use Hoppe’s to protect the bore and while I have used the Lucas… I use that and CLP as a lubricant as well on gun parts.
I’ve wondered if “ letting the rifle tell you when to clean it “ and shooting a resulting however many rounds without cleaning is a prescription for the dreaded carbon ring and copper fouling to an extent that becomes a negative. Would it not be better to have a regular cleaning routine to preclude carbon and copper build up? It would seem to me that a fouling shot or two would be a small price to pay.
Every third or fourth cleaning I use JB's Bore Paste on a patch with a few drops of Kroil on it. Have been doing this for years with no adverse effects. Bore gets sparkeling clean. I have done this on hand lapped match grade barrels and inspected with a bore scope after many times with no damage done, rifeling is still pronounced and the edges sharp.
Leaving some copper fouling in the barrel is a good thing for accuracy on some barrels, it will fill in imperfections left behind from the machining.
Leaving some copper fouling in the barrel is a good thing for accuracy on some barrels, it will fill in imperfections left behind from the machining.
Clenzoil
clenzoil.com
Superior for rust prevention and does a little bit of cleaning/carbon remover.
Project farm compared all of these things, so take a look:
Clenzoil - The Original C.L.P.
Clenzoil is the leading and most trusted manufacturer of cleaning and maintenance products for the firearm and marine industries. Founded in 1948 by a WWII Army captain and still veteran owned today, Clenzoil is proud to be an All-American brand.
clenzoil.com
Superior for rust prevention and does a little bit of cleaning/carbon remover.
Project farm compared all of these things, so take a look:
It is.
I clean the barrel every time I reload that barrels lot of brass, so every 2 or 300 rounds.
I only really ever notice the first round on the clean bore that’s different via target and chrono, the rest go back to group.
You don’t need to every 10 rounds unless you are shooting the pinnacle of benchrest and have proven you need to. But an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Clenzoil
Clenzoil - The Original C.L.P.
Clenzoil is the leading and most trusted manufacturer of cleaning and maintenance products for the firearm and marine industries. Founded in 1948 by a WWII Army captain and still veteran owned today, Clenzoil is proud to be an All-American brand.
Superior for rust prevention and does a little bit of cleaning/carbon remover.
Project farm compared all of these things, so take a look:
I use it, seems to work well and I like the smell to boot.
It is. Ask me how I know! I will also say that I’ve never gotten copper with Hoppes!
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And this is why I would try cleaning the fowling out and leaving the copper. It’s called the “Copper Equilibrium Method”. At some point, you will probably have to clean the copper out, but it might work for a good while not doing it.
Interesting. I clean after each range session and the next session might require 2-4 shots to “settle in”. Of course, different barrels react differently.
I don’t care to use abrasives so I try to practice “better living through chemistry.”
...and you have a Bartlein barrel?
I've got alot of rifles, and the only cleaning I really do is to use C4 carbon remover, then a few patches of boretech copper remover, and then I put Clenzoil down the bore and return the rifle to storage.
1-2 fouling shots, and away I go.
Never end up with a Bartlein or Proof BBL that gets overly crudded with copper, or starts losing accuracy. That said, more of the powders I'm using have anti-fouling additives...
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I've been using the Clenzoil after cleaning, like it! What I noticed especially with the V22 is that I don't see and CCB shift, velocity is even consistent with the rounds.
Almost exactly my cleaning regimen. One thing I’ve noticed with C 4 is that at times it will come out of the barrel with a blue tinge. I’ve assumed that’s due to it picking up some copper. When that happens I usually run some KG 12 copper solvent , ending up with Clenzoil followed by a dry patch.
This isn’t a Bartlein barrel.
All of my bartlein barrels hardly ever foul and shoot pretty much the same, dirty or clean.
Yeah, it def picks up some copper. Both @GBMaryland and I use it to clean our suppressors and we pour it out into a small jar (in my case the always useful jelly jar! haha) to use again (yes, Dorothy...it will work a time or two) and it is def blue.
I sometimes use C4 and C2 but most times I clean after a range session (eh, maybe 40 rounds down the barrel) and I use Eliminator and a bit of nylon brush. Seems to get the bore really clean if done regularly and not let the crap build up.
I have all SS barrels and don't put any oil in the bore after cleaning. First...I'll forget to patch it out before next time shooting and second...eh, it doesn't seem necessary.
I don't really see any cold bore deviation in my Bartlein MTU or Proof M24 barrels that I'm running now.
Cheers
I did my own little corrosion test with some of the products I had on hand. Fluid film, Hornady one shot, one shot HD, and Lucas CLP. Bought some steel plate and cut it into equal sized pieces, all from the same piece. Buffed it all and cleaned with brake cleaner, then applied the above. I left one as a control. I did wipe off all excess with clean cotton patches. Handled everything with fresh gloves, avoiding cross contamination. I did have a control piece. I placed everything in the back yard for a month all laying flat. It rained a lot and rain pooled on the plates until it evaporated. The control rusted after 62 hours. Fluid film after 91.5 hours (probably needed to be left on without wiping the excess). On the morning of day 13 the one shots were showing tiny rust spots. On the evening of the 13th day CLP started showing a small rust spot. On day 15 they all were starting to rust. I’ve been using Lucas CLP since.
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NO copper removing element but powder residue and lead fouling ?
OK : Equal parts acetone, turpentine and 1/3 part ATF . Wet patch twice allow to soak 10-15 minutes Dry patch until dry .
You could also substitute Marvel Mystery Oil or mineral oil for ATF.
OK : Equal parts acetone, turpentine and 1/3 part ATF . Wet patch twice allow to soak 10-15 minutes Dry patch until dry .
You could also substitute Marvel Mystery Oil or mineral oil for ATF.
@Frank Green
I have been using bullet central thoroclean for my last 6.5 CM bartlein barrel
I usually do 3x30 strokes of iosso nylon brush. Barrel looks clean as brand new but I was wondering
maybe that’s the reason I have to use almost 1 more grain of H4350 to get to my node.
With my 28” 300 prc my charge weight id 79.6grs of H1000 to get to 2915fps with lapua brass and berger 220. You think that’s slow? Is there anyway we can save the barrel? It has only 250 rounds.
I used it once on my brand new 7PRCW barrel after 150 rounds
I decided to quit using it for my rifles. Do you think the prcw barrel will speed up like normal barrels since I used it once and the fire cracking hasn’t started yet?
Thanks
I have been using bullet central thoroclean for my last 6.5 CM bartlein barrel
I usually do 3x30 strokes of iosso nylon brush. Barrel looks clean as brand new but I was wondering
maybe that’s the reason I have to use almost 1 more grain of H4350 to get to my node.
With my 28” 300 prc my charge weight id 79.6grs of H1000 to get to 2915fps with lapua brass and berger 220. You think that’s slow? Is there anyway we can save the barrel? It has only 250 rounds.
I used it once on my brand new 7PRCW barrel after 150 rounds
I decided to quit using it for my rifles. Do you think the prcw barrel will speed up like normal barrels since I used it once and the fire cracking hasn’t started yet?
Thanks
On the 300prc…. Is it a standard spec reamer for the chamber?
Your load seems hot for a 28” barrel and the velocity for that load seems low as well. We would also need to know the exact bore and groove dimensions of the barrel as well.
Your 6.5CM your using +1 more grain of powder to get to your node? Could be something with the cleaning and maybe not. Need more info as too many variables.
Barrels don’t always speed up. Type of powder, maintenance etc… are all variables. If it hasn’t changed by now… after a 150 rounds it should be where it’s at. What’s your load or loads for the 7mm?
Thanks for the response Sir.
My reamer is 300 PRC AW reamer. I will attach the print.
-the barrel is a standard spec Bartlein 5r HV I purchased from bugholes
For 6.5 CM
I have a 28” Bartlein 5r m24
41.7grs H4350 giving me almost 2795-2800fps with berger 144s and amazing groups to 600 yards.
For prcw I only fireformed the brass
But I tested 57.6grs N555 and it was 2951fps
Let me look at my print when I get home later tomorrow on the 300PRC
Your load for the 7mm seems spot on. I updated the thread on 7 6.5prc load data like a month ago with all the loads tested. What barrel length you running on the 7mm?
My max load with 6.5cm and H4350 with a 150gr bullet is like 41.5 or a smidge less. I’m running a honest 2700fps out of 23” barrels. My load with a 135gr bullet is like 42.8? Again all my data is at home but I know they are running at a honest 2800fps.
Let me look at my stuff when I get back home.
Go to this thread for the 7/6.5prc load data…
www.snipershide.com
7-6.5 PRC
Good to see the shooting industry working together like that. If we can get past the supply issues I can see the sport growing in popularity. We need to get more young people into the sport, most shooters I know are older than me and I'm far from young!
www.snipershide.com
Thank you sir
For 7mm I am running a 32” 1.25 straight bartlein barrel
This load was before I clean it with the thoroclean. Hopefully I didn’t mess it up. i will find out next time I shoot it
I don’t have a copy of my 300prc reamer at home. It’s on my computer at work. I’ll dig it up later this week.
What ^^^Bubba said.Thanks and thanks again for coming in here and sharing your wealth of knowledge. Invaluable stuff
Every time I come here I learn stuff about stuff I didnt even know there was stuff to learn about.
Some times it's over whelming
In lieu of BT C4 Anyone ever use a “natural” solvent/carbon remover on a 416R barrel such as D-Limonene or DMSO? dry patch it out Then you can use some copper solvent if needed then clean with Rem40, thoroughly dry patch it out then a light coat of protectant (lucas CLP, hoppes 9, etc). Dry patch before shooting.
Interesting. I bought some suppressor cleaner that is basically 100% DMSO. I should try some down a barrel before I use all of it up cleaning suppressors.
Yeah please do and let me know how it goes. DMSO is a pretty amazing chemical/organic sulfur compound. The high purity stuff can be diluted to 70ish% with castor oil and used topically for pain, anti-inflammatory, etc. has tons of uses. I healed a nagging shoulder injury with it after just a few applications.
One thing ive heard re: D-limonene is that it can fuck up nitrided steel. Turns it pink or something.
If you soak your suppressor/muzzle device in orderless mineral spirits it would also probably work really well.
Happy New Year!
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DO WEAR GLOVES when using DMSO. We used it to treat issues/injuries to performance horses legs. Powerful stuff. Anything you touch with your hands that has any type of substance and also has DMSO in it, will be in your bloodstream.
The old test. Put some lemon or orange juice on your palm and rub some DMSO on it. Shortly you will taste the citrus juice.
Yes, good call out. With that in mind it’s probably less of a hassle to use something else as a general “natural” solvent like oderless mineral spirits/paint thinner. It’s one of the main ingredients of Ed’s Red but it’s pretty effective against carbon/grease/etc all by itself and way less volatile than kerosine, acetone, or auto trans fluid (the other ingredients to ER)
Then use a light coat of usp mineral oil as a general oil/protectant.
(You'd still have to take care of copper somehow with BT copper remover, ammonia, etc as needed)
The above is Pretty much the approach gunblue490 takes:
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If you decide to put the DMSO in smaller bottles to make it easier to handle make sure you test a little first. DMSO will dissolve some kinds of plastic.
Yeah, so many caveats to working with DMSO.
I think going forward, On my bench my go to solvents are going to be 99.9% iso alcohol and low VOC mineral spirits/paint thinner. You can get a gallon for $17 at home depot:
Klean-Strip Green 1 gal. Paint Thinner - Eco Friendly GKGP75CA - The Home Depot
Decorate your patios, walkways and flower pots with the selection of this durable Klean-Strip Green Paint Thinner Eco Friendly.
www.homedepot.com
You can also get a gallon of USP mineral oil for around $30 to use as a metal protectant after cleaning and you’d be set for yrs for ~$50!
I have a bunch of clenzoil CLP (which is super expensive per oz) and some Lucas CLP that I will use up first as protectants after cleaning my barrel but when they run out im going to just exclusively use the mineral oil.
no short version….too much detail in that video is left out.
Give me a call and will talk about it.
Later, Frank
I've been using DMSO for the same thing, mix it with some other salve, and it works. My shoulder, knee, and multiple neck injuries have improved a LOT.
So I'm guess Frank doesn't recommend this cleaning method.
