I knew I'd heard of that stuff before. We've had several wounded horses in the past and used DMSO on them. Had a leaky spray bottle one time and got that crap all over my hands. Got like a stale frito chips taste in my mouth lol. Made me feel sorry for the horse I was spraying it on.
For the Love of God, GI Joe and John Wayne.... cleaning and abrasive cleaners
- Thread starter Frank Green
- Start date
He leaves too much detail out so I have questions.....
Also no cleaning rod/bore guide is used. Guys they are not that expensive and helps prevent damage as well.
He doesn't say if he's using JB Bore Compound (blue label) or JB Bore Brite (red label). I will use JB from time to time but it's the blue label. I will not use the red label!
If and when I use JB Bore Compound I don't put that much on a patch. You don't need that much in my opinion.
Also I wish he would do more normal cleaning with the chemicals before getting any type of a paste/abrasive cleaner involved. Let the chemicals do most of the work first.
In some calibers and types of powders.... yes there does come a time where you have to get more aggressive with the cleaning.
Also I'm not a fan of him saying... they are putting 200-250 rounds on a 300 Norma before doing any cleaning. Your asking for problems. Big mag caliber like that.... around 100 rounds max and I'm doing cleaning no matter what.
Army is having issues with 300 Norma right now. They are putting 200 rounds a day on a barrel/guns and they are having pressure issues and not to mention bullet failure issues as well. Couple this with little to improper care of maintenance/cleaning isn't helping anything at all.
In a combat situation... that's different. I get it.... shooting was hot and heavy and the guy put 130 rounds on it (just picking a number there) and didn't have a chance/time to clean it but for training and target practice/familiarity with the rifle...200 rounds in a day and your doing damage to the barrel and no proper maintenance and your just asking for problems.
So for me... the video leaves a lot of detail out. He also doesn't get into what happens if you use an abrasive with a brush and the bore damage that will result and or.... guys over using an abrasive even just on a patch and you hear from guys...." the patch keeps coming out really black in color!" What they don't realize is you are most likely polishing/removing material from the bore of the barrel. Which can lead to a accuracy / fouling issue.
So those are some of my thoughts.
I say this all the time.... there are more than ten different ways to skin this cat (cleaning) and if you have a procedure for cleaning and your maintaining the system and not wrecking anything... I've got nothing to say. The guy next to you doing it differently might not be doing it any better.
If how Bryan does it for himself and it's working for him that's fine. I myself won't do it that way.
Mark here in the office is a BR shooter and he doesn't do it anywhere like Bryan does and he is the first to admit that the BR guys are whack jobs when it comes to cleaning and they over do it!
Happy New Year to everyone on the Hide!
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
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The thing that stood out most to me was that Bryan barely did anything to ensure he actually got all the paste removed from the barrel after using it. To me that's the caveat with the pastes. They may be good every now and then for a deep clean but they are such a PIA to get out that I try to avoid them all together and just do a solvent soak/clean followed by light coat of oil after each use, patches only with no brushes (except to help with a stubborn carbon ring I will use an oversized brush wrapped in a patch soaked in c4/mineral spirits).
Hi Frank - first, a healthy and joyous new year to you and yours.
Second, thanks as always for coming on the board to share your experience.
Personally, I follow pretty much your process, as you have described here on the Hide in the past, for use of abrasives.
I do use a bore guide and was quite surprised to see Mr. Litz shove a patch loaded with abrasives into that action without a guide. Yeah, some of the JB (blue label) or Rem 40X comes off on the guide but so what...to me its far better than trying to get that grit out of where it doesn't belong in the action/chamber.
I was also a bit surprised to see him use a pointed jag...vice a Parker Hale style...and keep the patch on the jag as he stroked back and forth. I would have thought it would come off on the back stroke. Just shows how little I know! haha
I do use a Parker Hale style as you advised, put some oil on the patch and then the JB, and wrap it around like rolling a cigarette. I have a muzzle thread protector with a plug in it to close up the muzzle end so I don't come out the end of the barrel. But I also don't do 60 strokes over two applications of the abrasive but I'm talking 6.5 CM and not big magnums so maybe that's a significant difference.
I was also kind of surprised that he just pushed a few oiled jags down to clean the JB out and called it good. I'm more anal than that and tend to go thru my normal BT solvent cleaning routine after stroking with grit.
And I have to say I don't do the abrasives all that often. I'm finding that if I clean every time right after shooting (and yeah, its a PIA haha) that the barrel is far easier to clean and comes out cleaner with just my normal solvent process.
As you have said...and as we see here often....there are lots of ways to skin the cleaning cat. Diff strokes for diff folks.
Cheers
Yep I forgot to mention that.....
you use any of that stuff you follow up with bore cleaner (I'll use Hoppe's) and make sure you get it all out.
Anything left in the bore with an abrasive and you might as well pour rocks down it and when that first round is fired....you get the picture.
It's back to doing regular maintenance. Stay on top of it and your better off.
You let the gun/barrel get away from you.... and it's going to take more to get it back / get you out of trouble.
I feel like this doesn't get enough attention. Not only is DMSO really good at putting things into your blood, it's really good at breaking down and getting through common nitrile gloves.
As a general rule, if something can just Kool-Aid-Man right through 7mil nitrile gloves AND my skin AND my blood vessels, I don't work with that something at home.
DMSO, especially the higher concentrations of the stuff, is a no from me, dog. There isn't anything it can do materially better than existing products that are far safer.
Source: 10+ year old stale info from Industrial Hygiene training.
I'll go back to receive-only on this thread as a borescope-enjoying rod-guide-appreciator Thorroclean user. I enjoy how effective the product is, and while I haven't SEEN any damage, I did have a factory 6.5 Creedmoor barrel go bad a little earlier than normal at 2,200 rounds, so I'm willing to learn a thing and change my ways if I hastened the end by my own actions.
@Frank Green I don't think it's an accident that F-class John, Ultimate Reloader (Gavin) and now Bryan Litz are advertising Thorroclean. I would expect from them a declaration re conflict of interest. Otherwise I don't care why they recommend an abrasive to clean my barrel!
Come to think of it Bolt Action Reloading also has pushed thorroclean. Their marketing people came up with a good plan getting to all these “influencers”…
I get it.
I tell guys you need to be careful with Thorroclean also. Yes it's a liquid but they mix in Iosso bore paste from what I understand. Even liquid abrasives and how you use them you can wreck the barrel. I had one F class shooter wreck three barrels in a row using Witch's Brew. Argued with me on the phone. His last barrel only had a 110 rounds on it... and he took a full .001" out of the bore using a brush and the Witch's Brew.
I told him he had to change his cleaning technique and I was done arguing about it.
Dunno really about Mr. Litz, but F-class and Ultimate are pure shills. They should be on the Home Shopping Network.
Haha yeah it’s pretty cringe. His tip about using some solvent on an oversized brush to remove a stubborn carbon ring works pretty well but I think most people were probably doing something similar anyway.
Im embarrassed to admit I read every single post in this thread but for some reason reading about everyone’s different approaches and all the back and forth was fascinating to me. As others have said, big thanks to @Frank Green for spending so much time in this thread sharing his knowledge and answering questions….it has certainly helped clarify and refine some things on my end.
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After reading through the thread and brushing up on some organic chemistry heres a quick summary re: cleaning with water-based solvents like Bore Tech:
When done make sure to always thoroughly dry patch it out then follow that with 2 to 3 wet patches of isopropyl alcohol (IPA). The IPA is highly hydrophilic & will draw any water that’s remaining in the bore from the bore tech solvent towards itself as it gets patched out as long as it’s stronger than 65% (pure IPA will rapidly absorb moisture until it reaches an equilibrium ratio of 65% IPA 35% water). It also evaporates very quickly (which is why it’s so volatile). Run a few dry patches the you can run a lightly coated patch of USP mineral oil as a protectant or a CLP like lucas extreme or clenzoil.
If you are using a nonpolar (hydrophobic) non-diluted oil based solvent (derived from petroleum distillates/citrus/pine) like mineral spirits (note that odorless MS are diluted with water), kerosene, d-limonene, turpentine, etc. it contains zero water so there’s no real need to patch afterwards with iso alcohol. When done cleaning you can just skip right to applying usp mineral oil or CLP as a rust protectant.
For the record hoppes #9 solvent is mainly a mix of nonpolar (kerosene, oleic acid, propane) and polar solvents (ethyl alcohol, acetone) in unknown proportions.
2016 ingredients list:
When done make sure to always thoroughly dry patch it out then follow that with 2 to 3 wet patches of isopropyl alcohol (IPA). The IPA is highly hydrophilic & will draw any water that’s remaining in the bore from the bore tech solvent towards itself as it gets patched out as long as it’s stronger than 65% (pure IPA will rapidly absorb moisture until it reaches an equilibrium ratio of 65% IPA 35% water). It also evaporates very quickly (which is why it’s so volatile). Run a few dry patches the you can run a lightly coated patch of USP mineral oil as a protectant or a CLP like lucas extreme or clenzoil.
If you are using a nonpolar (hydrophobic) non-diluted oil based solvent (derived from petroleum distillates/citrus/pine) like mineral spirits (note that odorless MS are diluted with water), kerosene, d-limonene, turpentine, etc. it contains zero water so there’s no real need to patch afterwards with iso alcohol. When done cleaning you can just skip right to applying usp mineral oil or CLP as a rust protectant.
For the record hoppes #9 solvent is mainly a mix of nonpolar (kerosene, oleic acid, propane) and polar solvents (ethyl alcohol, acetone) in unknown proportions.
2016 ingredients list:
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I friend of mine was watching some YouTube videos and found some old guy (not sure who) that said most older products (like Hoppes) are most just some sort of petroleum based product, and recommend just using straight mineral spirit, white spirit, or turpentine.
Other than cost saving, is there any reason you might do this, or is Hoppes 9 just the way to go?
I actually prefer the older Hoppes #9. When I find it I buy it. It will say Nitro on the label. It had nitrobenzene in it if I recall correctly. I feel it does a better job than current Hoppes. If I remember correctly it was removed because of cancer causing concerns or something like that. I want to say they removed the nitro from it around 1990 or early 90's.
Hoppes is the old standby but what I really like about it is it will protect as good as any oil and will keep cleaning if left in the bore. So it doesn't wreck anything. LOL!
Oh.... if you read the old label on the Nitro #9 it says don't soak nickel plated parts or if you do to remove/dry the parts right away.
Some solvents are mostly water based.... I feel if left in the bore it will cause issues with pitting etc...so use them and get it out and oil the bore.
Solvents with ammonia in them... use them and get them out and oil the bore afterwards as well.
Pay attention to what your doing and how your doing it. Never mix solvents as well... unless your a chemist and you know what's all going on... don't do it. An old No No was mixing Sweets and Shooters Choice.
Later, Frank
Attachments
I know a guy who used Flitz metal polish and a brush one time cleaning a 30BR barrel. Know the gunsmith that did the work also. Barrel had like 250 rounds on it and was an honest .25moa gun. Actually shot .5" groups at 200 yards. Cleaned it one time and after that the gun would only shoot 2" groups at 200 yards.
Ask Mark here... he currently holds 2 or 3 world BR records. He will tell you he cleaned a barrel one time with Iosso and a brush the way the famous short range BR shooter Tony Boyer said to clean barrels.... and the barrel was junk after that. Mark never cleaned his barrels like that again.
Again JB Bore Compound or Rem. 40x cleaner does have a place and time it needs to be used and I do use them.
As I said... with any abrasive cleaner.... you better watch how you use them.
Ask Mark here... he currently holds 2 or 3 world BR records. He will tell you he cleaned a barrel one time with Iosso and a brush the way the famous short range BR shooter Tony Boyer said to clean barrels.... and the barrel was junk after that. Mark never cleaned his barrels like that again.
Again JB Bore Compound or Rem. 40x cleaner does have a place and time it needs to be used and I do use them.
As I said... with any abrasive cleaner.... you better watch how you use them.
I think this is correct. They changed the formula and took the nitrobenzene out.
Still loved the smell! Prolly what's wrong with me now. . .
When they changed the formula, I stopped using Hoppes because I was butthurt and moved to Shooters Choice, the plain SC7 stuff.
I have been using the SC rather than the new Hoppes for about 20yrs now because it isn't too aggressive and seems to do fine with carbon when used regularly.
Can you tell me if I'm barking up the right tree with my assumptions?
It was probably this video by GunBlue490:
His simple approach of using mineral spirits as a solvent, then mineral oil as a lubricant/protectant is perfectly fine and a great way to save money, but his assumption that hoppes 9 solvent is mostly just kerosene is way off. It definitely has a good amount of kerosene, but it also has acetone, ethyl alcohol, oleic acid, and a few other things in there as well.
In fact, I would slightly tweak his approach and use oleic acid as the oil/rust preventative after cleaning instead of mineral oil because I believe it bonds better to the metal surface compared to mineral oil but Id have to check on that. Both would work great.
(Edited to note: oleic acid would be an option here but if not using it as part of an all in one mix it can oxidize/go rancid in the storage container within a few months so better to stick with old reliable mineral oil which can never go rancid)
For long term storage/protection you can actually use boiled linseed oil which dries quickly to a hard film creating a barrier that protects the metal's surface from corrosion (just make sure the 416 SS is thoroughly cleaned and dried with iso alcohol before applying).
This study actually showed that linseed oil, mineral oil, or oleic acid are so good at protecting steel from oxidation they can be used as a flux in the galvanization process.
Also see this study: Effect of oleic acid on the corrosion resistance of carbon steel in concrete exposed in NaCl solution
FTR I think from looking at the MSDS hoppes gun lubricating oil is 100% paraffin oil which is a type of mineral oil...so instead of buying it I'd definitely just buy some USP mineral oil.
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No I think we are on the same page.
Kind of like comparing the SC and even guys saying Butch's Bore Shine is better than Hoppe's etc...Even the formula for Butch's changed from when it came out originally. I've tried them and I don't see much of a difference in how they perform... so I've just stuck with the Hoppe's during my slow cleaning method.
I did just pick up another bottle of #9 Nitro still brand new in the package. LOL! I also know a guy that's got like a 5 gallon container of the old Hoppe's but he won't share!
Maybe the smell has me hooked also? Just kidding on that!
Terry if the SC is working for you.... bud run with it. Like I said... more than one way to skin this cat.
Later, Frank
Can’t say yea or nea but I can say that when I purchased my XP-100 in 7mmTCU, the action was nickel plated to match the stainless barrel. The recommendation was that Hoppes was tough on Nickel. So, I went exclusively to Rem Oil to clean. Since my IHMSA loads were very light, I never had a problem. I would suspect that the barrel on that XP-100 has at least 5000 rounds through it and can still put three shots in under an inch when I do my part. (And take down rams at 200 meters as well.). Problem is, between a broken back and a broken shooting hand and the total lack of rams to shoot at anywhere closer than 500 to a 1000 miles, it as well as its last remaining brother, an XP-100 in 300 Whisper, have become all but permanent safe queens.
I still use Hoppes on other firearms but only rarely. I use a carbon cleaner on the chambers of the rifles that I use Varget in and the .22’s that get heavy use, but otherwise, its a good gun oil on the barrel with a nylon brush and patches, and a bit of gun lube on the recoil lugs and that’s it.
I used the original Hoppes for decades and it did a good job of cleaning barrels and keeping the firearms pretty much rust free. Got run out of the house more than once when I cleaned a rifle or handgun with it…….However,
As always, in these days and times….
If something works…….CHANGE IT!
FTR here is a stainless steel chemical compatibility chart, note the column for 416 type steel if you want to use your own solvents/mix to make sure it doesn’t eat the steel. Stick to chemicals rated A or B and you should be fine.
This may have been over previously (been a while since I read through all the posts).
But the general though is we need to keep out barrels as clean as practical, basically clean after each range use.
Not to get the bore spotless (aka remove copper fouling and everything) but to at least remove carbon, powder residue, and general crud that builds up.
So you need a cleaning product that will remove loose crud, carbon, not attack metal (chemically or physically), preferably not be water base, and preferably offer some protection.
I started using BoreTech products a while ago, I know mostly just use C4 as I shoot 99% 22lr and want to keep in top of carbon in the chamber.
The general thought is you don't want to remove all the good fouling (bullet lube and lead) but again loose crud, carbon, and definitely the carbon ring. The Boretech C4 seems to work well on the carbon, but as I tend to just dry patch the barrel (centrefire I always run a oiled patch then need to run a dry patch before shooting), there is some risk to corrosion from the water base.
I also hate the residue it leaves on your fingers, and worry about it possibly building up in the trigger group over time.
I'm guessing kerosene or mineral spirits would be a good alternative as a carbon cleaner (not so much the smell or oily residue though) is it going to be any better than Hoppes or Shooters Choice? With the latter two offering some protection without the need for running an oily patch after cleaning, and should be less likely to gum up/build up as most of the ingredients will just flash off.
But the general though is we need to keep out barrels as clean as practical, basically clean after each range use.
Not to get the bore spotless (aka remove copper fouling and everything) but to at least remove carbon, powder residue, and general crud that builds up.
So you need a cleaning product that will remove loose crud, carbon, not attack metal (chemically or physically), preferably not be water base, and preferably offer some protection.
I started using BoreTech products a while ago, I know mostly just use C4 as I shoot 99% 22lr and want to keep in top of carbon in the chamber.
The general thought is you don't want to remove all the good fouling (bullet lube and lead) but again loose crud, carbon, and definitely the carbon ring. The Boretech C4 seems to work well on the carbon, but as I tend to just dry patch the barrel (centrefire I always run a oiled patch then need to run a dry patch before shooting), there is some risk to corrosion from the water base.
I also hate the residue it leaves on your fingers, and worry about it possibly building up in the trigger group over time.
I'm guessing kerosene or mineral spirits would be a good alternative as a carbon cleaner (not so much the smell or oily residue though) is it going to be any better than Hoppes or Shooters Choice? With the latter two offering some protection without the need for running an oily patch after cleaning, and should be less likely to gum up/build up as most of the ingredients will just flash off.
I use boretech c4 to get all the carbon out which is a great product then I will use patchout with the accelerator to finish cleaning. Seems to work and no issues of rust or anything.
Interesting chart. couple of things surprised me, Turpentine and Whiskey.
IMO If you want a nice all in one solution (cleaning and rust prevention) then go with Hoppe's, ed’s red, or your own homebrew.
Or you can go the route of using a dedicated solvent followed by a dedicated oil/protectant.
If you want a non-toxic fast evaporating dedicated nonpolar solvent that's good for breaking up gun powder residue (which is mostly nonpolar), carbon, and other crap USP/Food grade d-limonene works well. It's actually a stronger nonpolar solvent than mineral spirits and potentially less toxic with a more pleasant smell but mineral spirits (stronger solvent than kerosene) would also work. Dry patch then follow up with a light patch of mineral oil etc. for rust protection.
** Note that before applying the oil, copper would still need addressed as needed with some bore tech eliminator or ammonium hydroxide/sweets
A good all around solvent for guns, the house etc. would be food grade d-limonene mixed with Iso alcohol and Oleic acid. This combo is actually pretty similar to this patent for an all purpose cleaner.
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It's definitely interesting...not sure what context/application these ratings were made but it's at least somewhat of a reference point. I was also surprised to see a big difference in how the same chemical is rated for 316 ss vs. 416, it would be A for one but F for the other (see amines, boric acid, lemon oil, food gelatin, glucose, etc.)
Your post made me want to dig into this a little more (plus I clearly have nothing better to do with my time
) and you're dead on.Hoppe's #9 formulation has changed quite a bit even between 2016 and 2019 and not just re: Nitro. They took out a major component used as a SS protectant (oleic acid) sometime between 2016 and 2019. Not clear on what they replaced it with.
2016 (still had 9 total ingredients) in order of %: acetone (polar), ethanol (slightly polar), kerosene (nonpolar), oleic acid (nonpolar, protectant/emulsifier), propane (nonpolar), N-butane (nonpolar), N-Amyl Acetate (nonpolar, banana smell), isobutane (nonpolar), and citronellal (polar, lemon smell)
2019 (now has 16 total ingredients), in order of %: Kerosene (nonpolar), ethanol (slightly polar, used as emulsifier), propan-2-ol (isopropyl alcohol) (polar), amyl acetate (nonpolar), 2-methylbutyl acetate (polar), methyl alcohol (slightly polar, used as emulsifier), <1% of ammonium hydroxide, <1% naphtha, <1% various other things.
I like the look of the 2016 formulation way better than the 2019 b/c in the 2019 version I'm not sure off hand what they are using as a protectant (the 2016 version uses oleic acid for this).
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Yep, also here's a different compatibility chart but it doesn't seem to say which type of SS the chemicals were tested on:
Stainless Steel Chemical Compatibility Chart
www.calpaclab.com
YMMV but I’ve been using BT products on SS barrels for about 5 years and have never had even a hint of oxidation/corrosion.
Now, I don’t leave it or any other solvent in a bore. I’ve always wondered about the folks who say they run three dry patches, after using a cleaning solvent, and then they are done. When I clean, getting the crap out ain’t near done after three dry patches.
Perhaps that’s where the disconnect is but I’ve plug one end of a barrel and filled it w BT and left for a day or two. Zero negative impact.
And I don’t run an oiled patched down after cleaning. Mostly because I’ll forget to patch it out before going to the range! lol
I do run a couple of patches w Gun Scrubber just to make sure I get all solvent out then it’s in the safe w a Golden Rod to control humidity/condensation.
Cheers.
Now, I don’t leave it or any other solvent in a bore. I’ve always wondered about the folks who say they run three dry patches, after using a cleaning solvent, and then they are done. When I clean, getting the crap out ain’t near done after three dry patches.
Perhaps that’s where the disconnect is but I’ve plug one end of a barrel and filled it w BT and left for a day or two. Zero negative impact.
And I don’t run an oiled patched down after cleaning. Mostly because I’ll forget to patch it out before going to the range! lol
I do run a couple of patches w Gun Scrubber just to make sure I get all solvent out then it’s in the safe w a Golden Rod to control humidity/condensation.
Cheers.
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When I was a wee lad of 16 (read about 20 pounds or more lighter, running stadiums after football practice will do that) my mother owned and operated a print shop. Not just any old print shop, but a print shop making decals for trucks and other applications using the silk screen process.
I might add that we used a lot of really, really, REALLY NASTY solvents. We had barrels of the stuff. The vinyl inks were really tough. And permanent. They would actually fuse to the vinyl backing material. My part time job was to clean up after the printing was done. Probably why I have some serious allergies today, but I digress. One of the solvents we used was acetone. I can tell you, that is some strong stuff.
I could have had that business, but was always pushed into the parts I hated and never allowed to do the parts that I liked. And, Had CAD had turned up twenty years earlier, I probably would still be operating that business. Even so, I loved working with the cameras, and creating stencils to make signs using the photographic process. But in the end, I really needed to change the world, making life better for people with mental retardation. Being dyslexic, I could identify.
Anyway, when we talk about stuff like acetone, I tend to shy away. Oh, I'm a cyclist and used glue on tires (tubular) my time trial bike. Guess what the recommended solvent for the glue is......For all the money I'd bet you guessed correctly, Acetone.
That's why I stick to Rem Oil, whenever possible.
I might add that we used a lot of really, really, REALLY NASTY solvents. We had barrels of the stuff. The vinyl inks were really tough. And permanent. They would actually fuse to the vinyl backing material. My part time job was to clean up after the printing was done. Probably why I have some serious allergies today, but I digress. One of the solvents we used was acetone. I can tell you, that is some strong stuff.
I could have had that business, but was always pushed into the parts I hated and never allowed to do the parts that I liked. And, Had CAD had turned up twenty years earlier, I probably would still be operating that business. Even so, I loved working with the cameras, and creating stencils to make signs using the photographic process. But in the end, I really needed to change the world, making life better for people with mental retardation. Being dyslexic, I could identify.
Anyway, when we talk about stuff like acetone, I tend to shy away. Oh, I'm a cyclist and used glue on tires (tubular) my time trial bike. Guess what the recommended solvent for the glue is......For all the money I'd bet you guessed correctly, Acetone.
That's why I stick to Rem Oil, whenever possible.
Even Shooter's Choice isn't the same as it was in the 90's. Like every effective solvent they aren't good to touch or breathe.
I have a couple of bottles of 99% acetone here....but I don't let it get anywhere near a gun (or anything else I value, tbh).
Yeah, won't hurt uncoated stainless steel but there's a lot of other stuff on a scoped rifle that it will just eat up.
And, very interesting story about the decal print shop. Thanks
Your post made me want to dig into this a little more (plus I clearly have nothing better to do with my time
Hoppe's #9 formulation has changed quite a bit even between 2016 and 2019 and not just re: Nitro. They took out a major component used as a SS protectant (oleic acid) sometime between 2016 and 2019. Not clear on what they replaced it with.
2016 (still had 9 total ingredients) in order of %: acetone (polar), ethanol (slightly polar), kerosene (nonpolar), oleic acid (nonpolar, protectant/emulsifier), propane (nonpolar), N-butane (nonpolar), N-Amyl Acetate (nonpolar, banana smell), isobutane (nonpolar), and citronellal (polar, lemon smell)
2019 (now has 16 total ingredients), in order of %: Kerosene (nonpolar), ethanol (slightly polar, used as emulsifier), propan-2-ol (isopropyl alcohol) (highly polar), amyl acetate (nonpolar), 2-methylbutyl acetate (polar), methyl alcohol (slightly polar, used as emulsifier), <1% of ammonium hydroxide, <1% various other things.
I like the look of the 2016 formulation way better than the 2019 b/c in the 2019 version I'm not sure off hand what they are using as a protectant (the 2016 version uses oleic acid for this).
It's a great point on how these cleaners etc. change over time and probably something to pay more attention to. The Hoppe's is a great example, I've used it for decades as a final step in cleaning, especially if it will be awhile before I hit the range with that gun again, and just patch it out before the range. However, if the formulation has changed and no longer includes a protectant, it might be time to find something else to fill that roll. They do still claim it has a strong rust inhibitor.
That said I also wonder for decades people have considered #9 as pretty much harmless, and MSDS sheets are always a little scary to read, a bit like those medication commercials where all the side effects sound worse than the thing you have they are treating. However, it's interesting that the Hoppe's #9 current MSDS sheet now specifically calls out multiple ingredients as known IARC Group 1 cancer risks for both inhalation and skin exposure. IARC Group 1 are those having human evidence of causing cancer. A quick look at other options like Shooters Choice or Boretech Eliminator MSDS sheets mention nothing about cancer risk ingredients. Even the older 2016 MSDS for #9 does not really mention cancer causing risks aside for the CA Prop 65 stuff that no one seems to pay attention to.....good or bad. I've resisted in the past, and used to work with a lot of rad stuff so gun cleaning fluid is probably the least of my life spans worries, but it might be time to give in and start wearing gloves when gun cleaning.
So it's of course possible that reporting requirements, or making a more "scary" report is required these days, or the usual legal CYA but if not it sure seems like #9 has become more risky to work with.
Aside: the Lucas oil bore cleaner MSDS is amusing to read, it basically contains zero information on what's in it, aside "petrolium distillates" and every risk/health category just says "There is no data available" or "No known significant effects or critical hazards"
Clenzoil
Clenzoil - The Original C.L.P.
Clenzoil is the leading and most trusted manufacturer of cleaning and maintenance products for the firearm and marine industries. Founded in 1948 by a WWII Army captain and still veteran owned today, Clenzoil is proud to be an All-American brand.clenzoil.com
Superior for rust prevention and does a little bit of cleaning/carbon remover.
Project farm compared all of these things, so take a look:
So a little bit of an update... turns out Clenzoil removes some carbon and alot of plastic...
Seems that it's REALLY good for cleaning shotguns... especially automatics.
I used it recently to clean the forcing cones and chokes, and it made short work of the build up vs Boretech products (even the shotgun formula).
I highly doubt it'll remove copper fouling, but it does great on the carbon and especially any plastic.
DMSO: Back in the day we would use DMSO as a carrier to get drugs through the skin barrier. (Things like localized pain relievers and such.)
The "Wear Gloves" is super important when dealing with DMSO... you really don't want to get unintended things into your system.
The "Wear Gloves" is super important when dealing with DMSO... you really don't want to get unintended things into your system.
Frank, I tried to skim through all 12 pages so o could better learn how you clean barrels. I found your “hurry-up” method described above. I apologize if I missed it, but if you have time to answer, what is your “normal” cleaning method? From steps to specific products used. Currently have two of your barrels, so I want to keep them nice. Thanks so much!
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Here’s a link to the detailed cleaning & break in guide he posted upstream:
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...g-and-abrasive-cleaners.7183723/post-11082636
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I am a big fan of Litz. I own several of his books and run the AB app as well as the AB Kestrel.
But like all good students there are things I just can’t jump on board with.
When I saw this video the first thing I thought of was this thread. Thanks for bringing this in to the discussion.
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Thanks for the reply! For some reason it’s taking me to a google drive link and says I need to request access? Do you have the post number? (For example, this post is #592)
I don’t care that these folks push 3rd party products for money. My problem is if they don’t disclose that information clearly. It was my understanding that this is required in the Youtube TOS.
My bad I forgot I saved the pdf to my personal google drive. Here’s the post where he provided the pdf attachment so you can just download it to your device or print it out:
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...g-and-abrasive-cleaners.7183723/post-11082636
One thing he mentioned somewhere in the thread that’s worth repeating…
** Don’t let a barrels bore sit dry & dirty, always patch it out with solvent/CLP after shooting (let it soak overnight if possible and repeat for a few days, run a hoppes/solvent patch or oil before long term storage). Otherwise moisture in the air interacts with the fouling in the bore which can cause rust, pitting, etc..
Also see posts 411 and 421. You can use the search feature to pull up all of Frank’s posts in this thread as well (go to the search bar, click the gear icon, change the dropdown from “Everywhere” to “this thread”, leave the search box empty, in the By section type “Frank green” then click on his name when it auto populates, then click search.
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I always get a crack when people try to argue with probably the preminent SME on cut rifle barrels on the planet. Someone who modernized cut rifle production while everyone else was still fucking around on WW1/2 p&w machines.
Clenzoil may make the claim to be the OG CLP but....BreakFree probably has something to say about this and neither seem to be the OG.
Haha so many claims out there. For best bang for the buck I still use mil surplus LSA on gas guns. Clenzoil also works but is damn expensive per oz. Lucas extreme is also good but expensive.
I did a deep dive on appropriate gloves for DSMO.
Suppressors - Best way to clean heavily fouled TBAC can ?
Time + temperature + mechanical agitation are a bitch. Things get worse if there's any contamination remaining from machining operations (such as ferrous deposits that act as a site for initial corrosion). On the other hand, chemical passivation via exposure to strong acids post-machining can...
www.snipershide.com
Use a butyl rubber glove as nitrile doesn’t do a great job.
The safe bets seem to be the all in one cleaners/protectants like Hoppes #9 (not sure if their new formula still contains a protectant or not). You use this as a solvent and to leave a light coat in the bore to protect it.
Or you can do the all in one home brew like Ed’s Red (mineral spirits, kerosene, ATF, and acetone).
Here are my notes on an all in one that I haven't tried out yet:
All in one “green” home brew solvent/protectant, similar to Hoppes #9/Ed’s Red but simpler & less toxic:
- (70%) Nonpolar solvent: Varsol solvent or lab grade mineral spirits or Klean Heat Kerosene Alternative (mineral spirits with a little bit of trimethylbenzene, see HERE for MSDS) (easier to store than kerosene)
- (20%) Polar solvent: USP Isopropyl Alcohol 91% (aka IPA) (or denatured ethanol alcohol - mostly ethanol mixed with a small amount of IPA and methanol, or try Ethyl Acetate)
- (10%) Oil/Protectant/Emulsifier: USP/NF Oleic Acid
Or you can go the dedicated solvent and dedicated protectant route. Here are some options:
Dedicated solvent/oil approach:
- Clean with a nonpolar solvent: varsol solvent or lab grade mineral spirits
- dry patch it out
- If needed: for copper removal/chelation use Bore Tech Eliminator (which is a mix of approx 70% distilled water, 25% Monoethanolamine, and 5% propylene glycol)
- Clean with a polar solvent (IPA or denatured ethanol, which will also evaporate any residual water before applying oil),
- dry patch it out & allow to dry for about 5-10 mins
- Run a light patch of mineral oil or CLP to prevent rust (oleic acid would also be an option here but if not using it as part of an all in one mix it can oxidize/go rancid in the storage container within a few months)
- Run a dry patch before shooting
