Thorroclean & Bronze Brush Bore Cleaning Result.
- Thread starter Ronin22
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And I thought the best part of a 6.5 Creed was deer die when the rifle gets out of the truck and panties drop when it gets removed from the safe.
Boy was I wrong!
Ha. I had a 308 I was about to rebarrel so I didn't really care about it. Previously this barrel had shot a .0xx on one occasion and several groups at or just under 1/4" over the course of its life.
After watching that video I chucked the cleaning rod up in the Dewalt and went to work on it. There was some really fine light cross hatch in the bore in a few places but it didn't seem to affect the way it shot. But I won't do it again.
I clean ( solvents and patches only ) after each range session, usually 20-25 rounds . I also concentrate on the neck and throat area and about the first 4-5 inches of barrel beyond those areas. More frequent, yet perhaps more gentle, cleanings seems to be keeping me ahead of fouling build up. I do have a scope and will periodically look in my barrels, even though the guns are shooting well. More just out of curiosity than anything else. I don’t get torn out of the frame if I seen a carbon speck or two. The bore scope has indeed let me know that one of my guns seems prone to copper fouling, though.
In the video you linked I really wish he'd have put his money where his mouth was and done it with a brand new barrel, and not a shot-out (4.5K?) tomato stake.
…and had used abrasives, as that combo (brush + abrasives) is mainly what Frank is talking about.
Been cleaning ace, benchmark, kreiger, crb and hawkhill barrels with clr/thoroclean since the thoroclean was available, not an issue one, barrels shoot great and have lasted typical round count. I don't go crazy and only clean when necessary. They don't get cleaned to bare steel, just carbon rings and excessive fouling in the throat. I do most the cleaning with patches and try keep brushing to minimum.
I used to experience a speed up at 70-100 rounds when I cleaned to bare steel. Now that I leave some the carbon staining in the throat, I am back to normal velocity by round 3 or 4, and it usually starts to speed up again around 250 rounds from carbon fouling accumulating in the throat. This is with 6gt, 25x47, br variants, and 65cm. I ran my 65cm for close to 900 rounds last season and it still shot half moa for 10 rd groups, speed dropped a bit as the throat moved. Cleaning is only necessary if velocity is climbing due to fouling, or accuracy is diminished. Abrasives are just fine as long you don't go crazy with em.
I used to experience a speed up at 70-100 rounds when I cleaned to bare steel. Now that I leave some the carbon staining in the throat, I am back to normal velocity by round 3 or 4, and it usually starts to speed up again around 250 rounds from carbon fouling accumulating in the throat. This is with 6gt, 25x47, br variants, and 65cm. I ran my 65cm for close to 900 rounds last season and it still shot half moa for 10 rd groups, speed dropped a bit as the throat moved. Cleaning is only necessary if velocity is climbing due to fouling, or accuracy is diminished. Abrasives are just fine as long you don't go crazy with em.
I dunno...I have too many questions...like why so few rounds to prove a point?
I don't believe him to be a bullshitter. But I don't think he's provided anything conclusive yet either.
I personally spin a (nylon) brush inside the chamber neck area to get rid of the carbon ring...and it works. So I'm not against the use of brushes in unconventional ways.
We all have our personal cleaning routines, and everyone seems to be more dug-in on what they do than reloading even.
I use Thoroclean and an Iosso nylon brush. Follow the instructions. Only 10-15 strokes to clean as I dont demand perfection. Maybe a touch more in the throat to remove carbon ring with an oversized brush. I will admit I pre-clean the barrel with Hoppes to remove the chunky stuff to make it easier, usually patch it, let it sit for 15 minutes, patch it out and finish with Iso alcohol. I do not use it everytime, its not needed. Most of the time its just Boretech copper and carbon remover and its good enough.
Has it hurt the bore on my rifles? No. They still shoot just as good as they always have. It was a god send with my 6 CM barrel that is at about 1200 rounds now which I struggled with for way too long.
I think what Frank is really cautioning against is the guys that load up some blue JB bore paste and go ham with a brass brush for a 100 strokes or plug and soak their barrels in CLR and wonder why their barrels are cooked. These people are morons and deserve us laughing at them.
Has it hurt the bore on my rifles? No. They still shoot just as good as they always have. It was a god send with my 6 CM barrel that is at about 1200 rounds now which I struggled with for way too long.
I think what Frank is really cautioning against is the guys that load up some blue JB bore paste and go ham with a brass brush for a 100 strokes or plug and soak their barrels in CLR and wonder why their barrels are cooked. These people are morons and deserve us laughing at them.
That would be great, I could use the supplemental income! Alas, I can't even get the stuff free.
So, lets get some general understanding here, take away all the jump to conclusion mats...
Does a bore cleaned to bare metal shoot the best? Not that I've discovered. It usually takes 3-6rnds to get the tube to settle back in and then it's off to the races again. So, bullets like the copper and carbon to an extent. As with anything, except too much money, or too pretty a woman, too much of anything is bad. So that copper and carbon builds up and things go pear shaped. But why get to the pear shapes? Preventive maintenance to keep the barrel in a stable precision condition is how I look at it. What number of rounds, or when is that? You got to find out for yourself and apply what you think is the best. (Barrel equilibrium?)
I'm stuck cleaning the barrel mentioned in this thread every 100rnds till it craps out, but I will start on a new barrel, just cleaning the chamber and carbon ring. Granted there will be a light cleaning of the bore as I flush out the Thorroclean from the chamber cleaning, but that's it. Maybe this is the ticket too? I could use less product and extend the cost per ounce savings. Hmm...
Does a bore cleaned to bare metal shoot the best? Not that I've discovered. It usually takes 3-6rnds to get the tube to settle back in and then it's off to the races again. So, bullets like the copper and carbon to an extent. As with anything, except too much money, or too pretty a woman, too much of anything is bad. So that copper and carbon builds up and things go pear shaped. But why get to the pear shapes? Preventive maintenance to keep the barrel in a stable precision condition is how I look at it. What number of rounds, or when is that? You got to find out for yourself and apply what you think is the best. (Barrel equilibrium?)
I'm stuck cleaning the barrel mentioned in this thread every 100rnds till it craps out, but I will start on a new barrel, just cleaning the chamber and carbon ring. Granted there will be a light cleaning of the bore as I flush out the Thorroclean from the chamber cleaning, but that's it. Maybe this is the ticket too? I could use less product and extend the cost per ounce savings. Hmm...
I like and respect Frank. Bartlien is one of the companies that is really trying to innovate barrel manufacturing. His interviews with Cortina really show that. And Bartlien blanks generally are great shooters.
I think he has a bad taste in his mouth because of a handful of ham handed idiots that wrecked their stuff and expected him to warranty their barrels. I can't blame him for that. It's easier to just say "Don't use abrasive cleaners, ever". That covers the businesses ass.
Of all the abrasive products, I think Thoroclean is probably the least dangerous option compared to something like Iosso or JB which I have also used over the years. That doesn't mean it's safe to point where you can put no thought into it. You still have to engage your brain when you use it and that's the hard part for some people.
Thorroclean is Iosso in a suspension (liquid/oil) If you look at the bottom of the bottle, there be an "Iosso Products" stamp. Previously Iosso recommended the paste be suspended in Kroil oil, or their "Triple Action" oil.
Just so we’re clear. Frank isn’t saying to never use a brush. Perhaps this has already been mentioned.
My underlining:
This is a post in which he details how he cleans:
www.snipershide.com
I’ve also attached his pdf cleaning method that came straight from him.
He isn’t against all abrasives or brushes, just never use a brush with an abrasive. Never drag a brush over the crown. And he says to stay clear of JB red. He uses the blue JB or REM 40x cleaners every 300 rds or so, and cleans the same day as the shooting.
My underlining:
This is a post in which he details how he cleans:
Carbon ring removal
Youre not going to get a real answer to that question as there isnt really one because who really knows. Its just going to be a yes all of the above answer. Bore snakes dont do anything. Clean the carbon out and the copper if need be. Just clean it every few hundred instead of every many...
www.snipershide.com
I’ve also attached his pdf cleaning method that came straight from him.
He isn’t against all abrasives or brushes, just never use a brush with an abrasive. Never drag a brush over the crown. And he says to stay clear of JB red. He uses the blue JB or REM 40x cleaners every 300 rds or so, and cleans the same day as the shooting.
And about the “bronze/brass can’t scratch SS” guys: then why do bores wear out at all?
For the bullet is encased in copper, which is surely softer than all three of the other materials (brass/bronze/SS).
Oh yeah, it’s friction & heat & pressure & speed etc. And other particles in there. D’oh!
Take a look at my extended post here, which has a link to this engineering thread on the topic, which basically asked, “Why does a hard surface such as hardened steel wear when a soft material such as cotton fiber runs on it?"
For the bullet is encased in copper, which is surely softer than all three of the other materials (brass/bronze/SS).
Oh yeah, it’s friction & heat & pressure & speed etc. And other particles in there. D’oh!
Now, I’m no engineer. There may be a technical difference between scratching and “wear”; it's unclear to me but I’m pretty sure there is.
Take a look at my extended post here, which has a link to this engineering thread on the topic, which basically asked, “Why does a hard surface such as hardened steel wear when a soft material such as cotton fiber runs on it?"
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Ok, so, my understanding is that Thorroclean is basically Iosso in a solution. If that’s true, how does that make it safer than regular Iosso? What should lead me to conclude, as apparently you have, that Thorroclean is “ safer “ ( less abrasive ? ) than JB bore cleaning compound ( blue container )? It’s been my impression that JB bore cleaning compound has been long recognized as a mild abrasive .
It would appear so. I’ll be interested in Kaldor’s response to my questions. Can certainly stand to be corrected, but my impression is that Iosso is considered more abrasive than JB bore cleaning compound.
You got it carbonbased!Just so we’re clear. Frank isn’t saying to never use a brush. Perhaps this has already been mentioned.
My underlining:
This is a post in which he details how he cleans:
Carbon ring removal
Youre not going to get a real answer to that question as there isnt really one because who really knows. Its just going to be a yes all of the above answer. Bore snakes dont do anything. Clean the carbon out and the copper if need be. Just clean it every few hundred instead of every many...
I’ve also attached his pdf cleaning method that came straight from him.
He isn’t against all abrasives or brushes, just never use a brush with an abrasive. Never drag a brush over the crown. And he says to stay clear of JB red. He uses the blue JB or REM 40x cleaners every 300 rds or so, and cleans the same day as the shooting.
To recap what I say about this stuff....
yes Thorroclean or Witch's brew etc... is a liquid with an abrasive mixed in with it. You use a bronze brush and these together damage will result. How aggressive you are how often you use them together.... that's beyond our control.
Again... a 308win and only 500 rounds on the barrel... guy used Witch's brew and a brush... took a .001" out of the bore and the gouge marks like in that picture where starting to show. Barrel is junk. Can't save it.
Another shooter...not one, not two but he wrecked 3 barrels in the span of say 6-12 months. His last barrel was a 260imp on a f class gun. 110 rounds fired thru it and I don't know how much or often he cleaned it.... but he took almost a .001" out of the bore of the barrel. He wanted that barrel replaced at n/c also. I told him I was done! He argued with me (nicely I'll say) that the liquid abrasive cleaners are not as aggressive as the paste cleaners. I said... say what you want. You have to change your cleaning technique and I'm never replacing a barrel for you ever again. I'm done.
The same guy in the above paragraph.... was a few months later telling a bullet maker they're bullets are no good and are blowing up. I get a call from the bullet maker and they asked me... we want to hear it from a barrel maker. What do you see that causes bullet failures? So I went thru all that I know. Then we got into cleaning and told him about the above shooter and I couldn't remember his last name... I said his first name and what state he was from.... the bullet maker finished my sentence and said the guys last name and I gasped. He's damaging the barrel... the damage to the rifling was causing the bullets to blow up. They took the bullets the shooter returned and ran them thru out test barrels... even a 4 groove barrel that the bullet maker had abused and they told me they couldn't get the bullets to blow up.
I said, He's your customer right now and I'm not telling you what to do... but I will not replace his barrels anymore. I'm not saying we won't make him any/can't use our barrels but if he ever sends in another one and it looks like the others... I'm not replacing it.
This guy wouldn't happen to be from the PNW... as in WA state... would he? Because that sounds oddly familiar...
I’m thinking this could be more an Indian than the arrow problem at this point. Since nobody can answer why I’m not experiencing the same damage with using Thorroclean in the manner & frequency I’m using, it’s certainly piqued my intellectual curiosity and I plan to march on.
Either way my results/conclusions, after more time on this barrel and others I plan to FAFO with, will be posted. Probably gonna be another year or so, but I’ll revisit.
I think that’s what Frank is intimating (I don’t speak for him, obv), but at one point it becomes an arrow problem. We’re sorta just arguing about where that point actually lies.
Just don’t say a softer thing can’t harm a harder thing, and I have no beef with you. It’s your barrel. Notice I said “harm” and didn’t say “scratch”.
I’m sticking with Frank because I’m a dumbass and am sick of wading through and evaluating cleaning products and techniques.
Hardness ≠ toughness
They say if you’re going to be stupid, you better be tough.
Therefore, the tougher something is, the dumber you have to be to defeat it.
Thus, dumb people ruining exceptionally hard to ruin things.
They say if you’re going to be stupid, you better be tough.
Therefore, the tougher something is, the dumber you have to be to defeat it.
Thus, dumb people ruining exceptionally hard to ruin things.
Its true, actually. The feeling of “warped” actually caused by uneven pad material transfer to the rotor, and later leading to uneven wear.
I have floating disks on my two piece rotors to maintain braking consistency that is diminished when single piece and fixed two piece rotors warp.
Huh. Interesting.
A very smart girlfriend of mine once said, “Most arguments eventually devolve to disagreements over the definitions of words.”
Maybe this particular argument isn’t yet at that level, as I can see uneven wear being materially different than warping. But you get my drift.
That’s what my non-engineer mind would think. But the eff I know lol. You’re an engineer, right?
The question we should all be asking is, “Should my brake pads be made of bronze, can I safely clean the rotors with Thorroclean, and why can’t I just scour them clean with a shotgun with bronze birdshot?”
Metallic brake pads can have bronze in the ingredient list.
I think your remedy of a floating rotor could be chalked up to a number of things, such as the composition/characteristics of the floating rotor vs the fixed, its compatibility with the pad you're using, and your usage. When I was doing a lot of amateur racing and track days, I went down this rabbit hole. Im not fully disagreeing, its a hunk of metal, and could warp, I just dont think that whats happening generally.
It isn’t MY remedy. It’s THE remedy to eliminate coning.
The point being, rotors change shape through their temperature range, and fixed rotors cone (warp) while floating will not until it’s at the end of its allowable float.
The point being, rotors change shape through their temperature range, and fixed rotors cone (warp) while floating will not until it’s at the end of its allowable float.
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But according to Frank my barrel should be a tomato stake in the garden and it isn’t. Shouldn’t the focus be on why it isn’t? Instead of name calling the product and lumping it into a general category. Obviously I’m not completely on board with Frank’s conclusions based upon what he’s presented as the foundation for them.
What also hasn’t been addressed is the possibility of barrel steel differences. That is a big variable in this conversation. But I get there’s not a lot of motivation to investigate what’s going on. Very well. I’ll investigate.
If the person that Frank mentioned is either of the two people that I am thinking of... I wouldn't base *anything*, much less advice a company gives out, on anything either of those fuck-tards did. Either or both of them are fucking legendary around my locale for exactly that kind of shenanigans - or worse. Yes, I get that he has to protect himself and his company against the lowest common denominator idiots out there, but still... it kind of paints the whole argument in an entirely different light for me.
I appreciate your background knowledge on who is suspected of this level of dupery. Possibly they had a beef with Frank? I don’t know.
I’ll just preface I know Frank is watching this thread, so I know he’s in the room.
I’ll be perfectly clear here. I’ve owned Bartlein barrels. They shot great! But that was years before I knew of abrasives in bore cleaning. I’m not attacking Frank or his company on the performance & quality of his barrels. I would expect to be drawn & quartered if I was just saying “Barlein Sucks” so totally different conversation/debate we’re having here.
But to put it frankly, Frank as an individual, separate from his barrel company, because we’re not discussing barrels here, isn’t giving this a fair & unbiased shake. It’s abundantly evident. So nobody, including Frank, wants their product reputation shit on. However, in lack of substantial evidence, Frank is totally fine ratfucking these abrasive cleaner companies & their products. Even when presented with a case where there’s no damage. If that’s not bias I don’t know what is!
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