162 amazes @ 1854 yds

T

toddconley

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 16, 2007
1,002
1
49
Kentucky
#1
We found a place to get to 1800 pn Friday. I shot some amaxes at a 36 tall 24 wide plate and managed to hit it one time out of about 30. Question is, I would sometimes hold the same two times and impacts would vary as much as a mill? They started at 3020 out of my 28in 280ai. Took 23.8 mills to get there at about 650 da. Is the vert coming from transonic flight or velocity or both. I had been wanting to do this for a while. This experience left me both humbled and wanting to try again. I have crunched a bunch of numbers looking to build a win mag. I can't justify a bigger rifle. On paper I can't find anything the has a significant advantage until I get to 338. Is this true n real life? 162 @ 6 bc moving @ 3000 seems to be hard to shoot inside.
Thoughts from the longest range guys?
Thanks,
T
 
#2
Hmmn. From the ELR shooting I have done, it seems like once you get to the point where the bullets won't hold vertical any more, you have gone beyond the maximum practical range for that bullet/load/caliber.

When we were at gunsite working out from 1600 meters to 2000 meters on KD targets, there was a point where certain bullets just lost it. The guys shooting the 230 Berger Hybrids out of a 300 Norma were hitting fine at 1600, 1700, and 1800 meters, but they started to hit randomly at 1900 meters and out.

My 300g Scenars out of my .338 had no problem reaching all the way out to 2k meters. Wind was the only factor that day, as my hits showed no vertical dispersion that the scope could resolve. When your gun holds consistent vertical it becomes just a factor of learning what the wind is doing. When the bullets start showing a full mil of vertical dispersion? You have gone too far and are relying on luck.
 
#3
This was exactly my question. So based on what I'm telling you, your opinion is I've just shot past the bullets capabilities? It was basically impossible to predict the vertical. The wind was pretty easy compared. What spotters did they use at Gun site to spot at this range. My mark 4 didn't have good enough glass?
 
#4
There were Mark 4's there. My partner and I used a Hensoldt Spotter 60 though.

Yes, it sounds to me like you are shooting past the bullets capability.
 
#5
toddconley said:
We found a place to get to 1800 pn Friday. I shot some amaxes at a 36 tall 24 wide plate and managed to hit it one time out of about 30. Question is, I would sometimes hold the same two times and impacts would vary as much as a mill? They started at 3020 out of my 28in 280ai. Took 23.8 mills to get there at about 650 da. Is the vert coming from transonic flight or velocity or both. I had been wanting to do this for a while. This experience left me both humbled and wanting to try again. I have crunched a bunch of numbers looking to build a win mag. I can't justify a bigger rifle. On paper I can't find anything the has a significant advantage until I get to 338. Is this true n real life? 162 @ 6 bc moving @ 3000 seems to be hard to shoot inside.
Thoughts from the longest range guys?
Thanks,
T
Click to expand...

Todd,
You bring that combo to Wyoming and it would make it fine. Witha DA of 6200ft, most days, you're still at 1250 fps, with 16.5 mils up with a 200 yard zero.
My calculations didn't quite match yours at 600 DA though, I used .625bc, 3020 velocity and only came up with 22.5 mils up.
I'd say you're already through transonic flight, into subsonic which could really mess with vertical, some bullets don't do well, but I was under the assumption the amax did fine.
Needless to say, I'd hate to come down to your elevation to shoot!
 
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#6
For what it's worth.... I've shot my 175smk 308 many times at both a 1500 and a mile. Everytime I don't have much issues with vertical... For me it's usually horizontal dispersion is huge. The first time I shot at a mile with it, it must have took atleast 20 tries to get a hit. More recently i hit it every couple shots. I think experience and conditions can make a huge difference once you push the limits of a bullet.
 
#8
Bigwheels said:
A couple of quick thoughts.
Could rifle cant be a possibility? Was the vertical dispersion accompanied by horozontal?
ES? How consistent is your load?
Up/down drafts?
Click to expand...
Yes sir cant certainly could be some of it. I have a level on the gun but because the rifle sits in an Elisio chasis scope to bore is about 3.5" so cant is very important. Consistency of the load is part of the reason for my question. I shot yesterday at 1150. My vertical at that range is 12 in. I think this may be too much to reach as far as I tried. I am trying load that was prescribed to me by the smith that built the gun which he had based on past history he had with same twist, barrel maker and reamer. I was just now able find 4lbs h4831 to try as recommended. We will see if this shrinks the vertical. I can shoot to 1150 all the time at my house so I hoping tomorrow to send a few out there and see. Thanks to all of you for your help. I feel like this extra long range stuff will do tremendous things to help true up the data 1000 and in.
 
#9
I am GUESSING it is not the bullet. I have not shot the 162 (A-MAX) at 1800 yards, but I have used the 6.5 140 grain (A-MAX) to that distance, and I have a friend who has done the same with the 30 cal 168 (A-MAX).
My guess is that it is your load, if you are getting 12" of vertical at 1K.
In good conditions at 1K I want my rig to be capable of sub 5" groups.
 
#10
toddconley said:
Yes sir cant certainly could be some of it. I have a level on the gun but because the rifle sits in an Elisio chasis scope to bore is about 3.5" so cant is very important. Consistency of the load is part of the reason for my question. I shot yesterday at 1150. My vertical at that range is 12 in. I think this may be too much to reach as far as I tried. I am trying load that was prescribed to me by the smith that built the gun which he had based on past history he had with same twist, barrel maker and reamer. I was just now able find 4lbs h4831 to try as recommended. We will see if this shrinks the vertical. I can shoot to 1150 all the time at my house so I hoping tomorrow to send a few out there and see. Thanks to all of you for your help. I feel like this extra long range stuff will do tremendous things to help true up the data 1000 and in.
Click to expand...

Do you have a chronograph? What kind of ES are you seeing on the load? Thats where I would look first for vertical dispersion.
 
#11
[MENTION=32602]mwroseberry[/MENTION]

^this fellow is a 7mm guy and I know I've read posts of his once or twice claiming his 7-08 w/ 162amax was not consistent in the trans-sonic and subsonic zone. He says he switched to the 162bthp and things improved greatly, though the BC of the hpbt isn't quite as good as the amax.

[MENTION=52353]timelinex[/MENTION]

If .308" 175 sierras are nice and consistent for vertical at 1760 yards for you, you're doing something very right and I'd like to know what it is! I've poked my 308s out to 1760 with the 175s and been all over the place, both horizontal and vertical.
 
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#12
He told me in a pm he was getting 12" of vertical at 1150. Which is about 1 moa. Maybe not perfect, but it doesn't remotely translate to the 1 mil of vertical he was seeing (3.6 moa.)

I think the bullets are haywire when they start to go transonic.
 
#14
turbo54 said:
@mwroseberry

^this fellow is a 7mm guy and I know I've read posts of his once or twice claiming his 7-08 w/ 162amax was not consistent in the trans-sonic and subsonic zone. He says he switched to the 162bthp and things improved greatly, though the BC of the hpbt isn't quite as good as the amax.

@timelinex

If .308" 175 sierras are nice and consistent for vertical at 1760 yards for you, you're doing something very right and I'd like to know what it is! I've poked my 308s out to 1760 with the 175s and been all over the place, both horizontal and vertical.
Click to expand...

To be fair, the mile target was 36" and my DA is closer to 4000. I have had times when the bullets would leave keyhole marks on the targets at that range, but not other times. So obviously environmental conditions do effect the actual stability of the bullet. I have never heard anyone else ever mention this, but my thoery is I actually think opposing cross winds destabilize bullets. I have had my 338lm keyhole at 1900 before, and that time there was alot of crosswinds. The wind at my shooting location was atleast 10-15mph, while I had to enter almost no windage to make it there. Bullets don't actually fly straight, they fly with their tips slightly skewed towards the side where the wind is blowing from. So I think when there is many abrupt opposing crosswinds, it might wobble the bullets gyroscopic stability...

The load I have is about .5moa at 100yds and sd in the lower single digits. 44.8gr of varget , winchester brass, .01" into the lands and with very low neck tension (1 in 50 or so rounds the bullet would probably collapse into the case if I pushed on it hard enough, from natural case thickness variation).

Maybe next time I go I will bring my 308 and try to capture a video. I always want to video tape my shoots, but by the time I get there I get caught up in just having fun shooting and don't remember until I'm already driving home!
 
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#15
Did some work on my load this last week. Went from h4350 to h4831. Results were sketchy to start with. A friend asked if I had tried magnum primers. I hadn't so I did. Results were dramatic. Went from 12 in of vertical @ 1150 down to a .1 mil or a little tighter. 61 gr of h4831 and magnum primers gives me 3020 working backwards from drop. Getting to 1000 @ 6.4-6.5 in greensburg ky. Da today was 17 on my shooter app. Has anyone shot the 162hpbt at distance. On paper they give up about .5 @ 1000 of drop. They shoot as good or maybe better in my rifle up close. This week going back to 1850 to test some more. Thanks for your advice
T
 
#18
We got to figure out a way not to carry that steel 1850 yds. I may be able to ask to come in from the other road. Maybe I'll bring a mini truck. I think I got this vertical figured out somewhat. Also. Your In the match. I asked that you guys get squaded with us and he said ok.
 
#21
Vertical dispersion is quite possible depending on your locale... here in Norcal with wild winds in high desert canyons, an upslope/downslope winds can carry the bullet up or down as much as it blows left and right.
My 300 Scenars get pushed all over the place. In the rare dusks when the wind dies to zero, we get amazing groups back. It's almost fun to shoot ELR then. But during the day all this talk of grouping at mile plus, at least around here, is just that... talk. Can't be done. We've tried with several platforms.
 
#22
Very interested in this thread, i plan to shoot some 162 A-Max's out to about 1800 yards from a 1:8 twist 284 win 26" barrel. I will be shooting in about 80* and about 2200' above sea level. Could you guys tell me what you mean by DA? I am new to ELR shooting, i am 14 y/o.
 
#25
DA means Density Altitude. I think it originated in aviation, don't qoute me. Most all ballistics programs can utilize DA, it will cancel out temp, barometer, humidity, but you need something that can read it, like a Kestrel. A local airport would have it also.

Examples, it's 4700 elevation here, most sunny days DA will read 6200 or higher, depends on all atmospheric conditions. I've seen it as low as 3200, and as high as 8900, it tells you what it thinks the elevation is according to conditions.
Say you're shooting at a 20"x20" plate at 1500 yards, it's sunny, nice day, a cloud comes over and hovers for awhile, you're hitting dead center, shoot again and miss the plate low, it's because the changes dropped your DA by 1000 ft, and you didn't compensate for it, and were 3/4 minute low.
DA changs quite a bit during the day, the most rapid changes occur early in the day as the sun gets higher, and seems to drop quite rapidly after say 6:00 here, sometimes evenings with no wind seem so perfect, but really your bullet doesn't fly as well as in midday heat.
There are people who can explain this way better than myself, google it and learn.
Your goal of 1800 with the .284 and 162 amax is a pretty lofty goal, good luck and welcome to the hide.
 
#26
milo 2.0 said:
DA means Density Altitude. I think it originated in aviation, don't qoute me. Most all ballistics programs can utilize DA, it will cancel out temp, barometer, humidity, but you need something that can read it, like a Kestrel. A local airport would have it also.

Examples, it's 4700 elevation here, most sunny days DA will read 6200 or higher, depends on all atmospheric conditions. I've seen it as low as 3200, and as high as 8900, it tells you what it thinks the elevation is according to conditions.
Say you're shooting at a 20"x20" plate at 1500 yards, it's sunny, nice day, a cloud comes over and hovers for awhile, you're hitting dead center, shoot again and miss the plate low, it's because the changes dropped your DA by 1000 ft, and you didn't compensate for it, and were 3/4 minute low.
DA changs quite a bit during the day, the most rapid changes occur early in the day as the sun gets higher, and seems to drop quite rapidly after say 6:00 here, sometimes evenings with no wind seem so perfect, but really your bullet doesn't fly as well as in midday heat.
There are people who can explain this way better than myself, google it and learn.
Your goal of 1800 with the .284 and 162 amax is a pretty lofty goal, good luck and welcome to the hide.
Click to expand...
Thank you, i know its a long shot (pun intended) but i think it will be some fun. I may have to give the 195 berger EOL a try once it is out.
 
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