1874 Sharps 45-90 reloading questions.

[Punisher29073]

I am picking up a Pendersoli Dixon Sharps 1874 with a 6x scope on it next weekend. This is my first forray into this type of gun. It is a 45-90. I would like to reload to shoot 600-1000 yds with it. My heart wants to reload black powder paper patch rounds but my brain say grease groove smokeless. I have no experience with anything but modern rifle reloading. Anyone here have experience in this area?

Ryan

 

[sandwarrior]

Nice find punisher. I can't give you a load, but I would look on Hodgdon's website and start there. As you say, grease-groove fake black powder is going to be easier, but look into the real black powder loads too. The only thing I know about real black powder is NEVER leave a gap between the powder and projectile. The explosive properties of black powder can do more than you think they will vs. the burn properties of smokeless "fake" black powder.

 

[kraigWY]

You need to use soft lead bullets and dont push them too fast. Lyman's 535 gr bullet # 457132 is about the best you can find for long range.

I think youre best bet would be to pick up Lyman's BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I have to start loading in that Cal as well... thanks BuffaloWinter...

This is a good thread!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[SmileMaker]

Three books to help you on your way: SPG Lubricants BP Cartridge Reloading Primer by Mike Venturino & Steve Garbe, Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge by Paul Matthews and Loading and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets by Randolph Wright.

 

[308Gunner]

I just got a woody looking at the above picture

 

[Punisher29073]

Thanks for the info. Keep it coming. I will order a couple of those books to start with.

SW - thanks. I didnt know that but makes sense considering how you load a muzzle loader.

I plan to get a good load for it, then remove the scope for a vernier sight.

Ryan

 

[Punisher29073]

Isnt this supposed to get cheaper, the less technology there is in your equipment??????

Ryan

 

[D_TROS]

Also recently picked up the exact rifle/scope but in 45-120

Also a rook in the department of these man cannons. Got the brass (3.25 inches long lol) dies (3 die set) and lead. Cant decide on a powder.

How do you know if the rifle can handle smokless powder?
Is it ok if the case isn't full? (of smokless)

I also read using a filler is VERY bad for the barrel as essentially the "filler" compresses and causes damage to bore somhow.

Thanks for any leads. Will be looking to get a couple books mentioned above.


Regards,
DT

 

[sandwarrior]

Also recently picked up the exact rifle/scope but in 45-120

Also a rook in the department of these man cannons. Got the brass (3.25 inches long lol) dies (3 die set) and lead. Cant decide on a powder.

How do you know if the rifle can handle smokless powder?
Is it ok if the case isn't full? (of smokless)

I also read using a filler is VERY bad for the barrel as essentially the "filler" compresses and causes damage to bore somhow.

Thanks for any leads. Will be looking to get a couple books mentioned above.


Regards,
DT

It is okay to use a non full case with smokeless powder. It's blackpowder that needs to be full.

I do not know if filler will damage the bore. I know people who use it regularly it doesn't seem to affect anything. It would be best to consult a reloading manual. If you do not find the answer you are looking for contact the powder MFG'r to get the straight scoop from them.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Hey, Smile... is that a Ballard I see?

Because, well, Hubba Hubba!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[SmileMaker]

Hey, Smile... is that a Ballard I see?

Because, well, Hubba Hubba!

Cheers,

Sirhr

Cody Ballard #7 45-110 now topped by a DZ Arms 8x scope

 

[sirhrmechanic]

 

[lonegunman762x51]

I recently tried some new 45-90 loads with a 385gr bullet and Blackhorn 209 powder. The idea was they would work in my 1886 lever gun and Sharps rifle, they are a millimeter to long for the 1886. That being said, the powder was actually very nice, a little smokey and easy to clean up, similar to black powder but no extra equipment required to load. The downside is they the powder is sold in 10oz containers so it is a mild robbery.

 

[jbell]

I miss my 1874, what an amazingly accurate rifle, and so fun to shoot! I am always keeping an eye out for a 45-110 or 45-120, especially an Axtell...

 

[29aholic]

For a plinking load I have used 17gr of Trail Boss in my C. Sharps 45 2 4/10

 

[Supersubes]

Id use real black powder personally. My target load ES figures can’t be touched by any smokeless load. Typically lower than modern SD figures for a 10 shoot string. Paper patching is neat, and what I like to shoot, but it’s another layer of load developement you’ll have to learn. I suggest grease groove first, then work into PP loads. The books listed above are good, and buffalo arms is a great place to buy stuff.

I don’t buy the air gap danger thing either. An old wives tale imo. The paper cartridge percussion rifles operated with a bunch of gap. Breech seating bullets by target shooters frequently puts the bullets base well above the case mouth in some circumstances. I’d wager that most ringed chambers were caused by smokeless or duplexed loads, not air gap BP loads. There are also quite a few old ordinance dept tests on this subject.

Black powder is quite predictable and safe. That postell bullet that Kraigwy recommended is a good one, and happens to be what I started with, although mine comes out of a buffalo arms mold. It’s got about .650 of bearing surface. If you seated it to the top of the last grease groove (for example),that would leave you about 1.8” of powder space inside the case. To give you an idea of how BP works, you could fill the case with loose BP to a height of 1.8”(about 80 grs), or you could drop tube it to the very top of the case mouth (probably 100+ grains)and use a compression die to cram it down to 1.8”(.6” of compression), and not make a whole hell of a lot of difference. You could also do any variation between that in pursuit of a good load. In other words, your smokeless powder knowledge doesn’t apply to BP.

I think the only loads that consistency didn’t perform well in my shilohs have been light bullet plinker loads. Everything heavy has shot for me though.

The old dead guys were loading this stuff around camp fires after a day’s hunting, it isn’t rocket science. Fun as hell though!

 

[Dog&Jeep]

I picked up a Pedersoli Quigley last April. It's a 45-70. It's become an obsession. (As people here warned me it would be...)

My first few bullets were smokeless. Once I switched to black powder, I haven't looked back. My current load is 60 grains of 1.5 Swiss with a .30" vegi-wad, Capped by a 535 gn Postell lubed with SPG. (Seating that bullet takes a little over .25" of powder compression.) At 100 yards that load produces tighter groups than most of the local hooples with scopes can do.

Since you're running that scope, what I have to say next doesn't really apply. But I'm gonna say it anyways: Pedersoli makes some fantastics barrels, but their period sights leave a lot to be desired. I upgraded to Kelly Soule and globe sights. That led to a big improvement in shooting over the course of a day.

These guns command the respect of everybody at the range. They're huge fun to shoot.

Congratulations on your find.

 

[Punisher29073]

That is great info. Do you cast your own bullets?

I plan to use the scope for load devolopment but then remove for good sights. Note taken.

Thanks for input.

Ryan

 

[Dog&Jeep]

Yes, I do.
A short while ago, an old timer in my area passed on and his family dumped all his bullet make stuff at our local gun shop. Besides his tools, (that I snatched up) there was about 900 pounds of cast bullets sitting in vacum packaged 50 round boxes. Beautiful looking bullets cast in a 20:1 lead/tin alloy. I tried shooting a few as is, but my Sharps didn't like them. So I used them as lead for casting 535 gn Postell's. (Lyman mold number 457132) In the end, the gun shop got tired of the bullets taking up space so they gave them all to me just to get them out of there. So at some point in the future, I still need to learn about mixing alloys. For now, I'm cheating.

A couple of weeks ago I bought a different Lyman mold for a flat-nose 405 gn bullet that I want to use with a Rem Rolling Block that found its way into my safe. (Did I mention that block powder shooting is really addictive?) Anyhow, the mold makes such a beautiful hassle-free bullet that I decided to try some out of the Sharps.

They grouped well, but at 100 yards the POI dropped just over 8" compared to 535 gn Postells. This surprised me. I've since heard from several sources that this is due to the shorter period of time that the lighter and faster bullet spends in the barrel subject to recoil/barrel rise. I had never encountered this to any significant degree with modern rifles. But with these big slow moving bullets it's very pronounced.

 

[polish handgunner]

About 20 years ago I purchased a used Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Billy Dixon model in 45/70.
I replaced the tang sight with a Pedersoli souls sight.
That was a mistake!
I then purchase a MVA Buffalo souls sight with a Hadley eye piece.
I also replaced the Pedersoli ‘bubble’ front sight with a better one - no cold molasses slow bubble level.
My loads have been 60 to 61 grains of Swiss 2FFg or Swiss 3FFFg, .03 vegetable wad, slight compression with one lube groove exposed and an overall length of just under 3.00”.
This is with a Lyman home cast Postell Bullet.
I have made hits beyond 1000 yards on occasion!

 

[sandwarrior]

About 20 years ago I purchased a used Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Billy Dixon model in 45/70.
I replaced the tang sight with a Pedersoli souls sight.
That was a mistake!
I then purchase a MVA Buffalo souls sight with a Hadley eye piece.
I also replaced the Pedersoli ‘bubble’ front sight with a better one - no cold molasses slow bubble level.
My loads have been 60 to 61 grains of Swiss 2FFg or Swiss 3FFFg, .03 vegetable wad, slight compression with one lube groove exposed and an overall length of just under 3.00”.
This is with a Lyman home cast Postell Bullet.
I have made hits beyond 1000 yards on occasion!

Hoping you'd see this thread, Karl. How are things out N. Idaho way?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

So now that it's finally not snowing here.... I broke out the mold and started to make some Hexagonal Whitworth paper patched boolits...

I got about 100 cast and about 30 patched in a short afternoon. I could have done more, but it's time for a beer!

I have 20 done with a small dab of (highly-diluted with water) white glue holding the patch corner... but I am concerned that it will not release the paper patch completely and will cause erratic flight. So I ended up doing another 10 with nothing holding the patch on at the top and those worked out just fine... I just had to work on my technique to get the paper to sit down during wrapping so that I could 'capture' the point without it slipping. Turns out no glue needed once you get the technique down. I did put a dab of my diluted glue mixture on the tail to hold the wrap in place.

Paper was a gift from a fellow 'Hide member. I love this place! .003" airmail vellum that was just perfect! I designed a parallelogram pattern that puts exactly two layers on a .451 Bullet and the edges match up very well. After the Elmers mixture set up, I rubbed each with a bit of liquid Alox and that is now drying.

I might even go out tomorrow and shoot them all! Get a range report! My first time paper patching and I can't wait to see how it comes out. Very satisfying and relaxing!

Cheers,

Sirhr

P.S. I get 18 patches from each sheet of paper... and I got sent 500 sheets! Since I don't see firing this 9,000 rounds in the immediate future... if someone wants some paper for trying out patching... let me know! It's cheap to mail! Sirhr

 

[sandwarrior]

So now that it's finally not snowing here.... I broke out the mold and started to make some Hexagonal Whitworth paper patched boolits...

I got about 100 cast and about 30 patched in a short afternoon. I could have done more, but it's time for a beer!

I have 20 done with a small dab of (highly-diluted with water) white glue holding the patch corner... but I am concerned that it will not release the paper patch completely and will cause erratic flight. So I ended up doing another 10 with nothing holding the patch on at the top and those worked out just fine... I just had to work on my technique to get the paper to sit down during wrapping so that I could 'capture' the point without it slipping. Turns out no glue needed once you get the technique down. I did put a dab of my diluted glue mixture on the tail to hold the wrap in place.

View attachment 7327913

Paper was a gift from a fellow 'Hide member. I love this place! .003" airmail vellum that was just perfect! I designed a parallelogram pattern that puts exactly two layers on a .451 Bullet and the edges match up very well. After the Elmers mixture set up, I rubbed each with a bit of liquid Alox and that is now drying.

I might even go out tomorrow and shoot them all! Get a range report! My first time paper patching and I can't wait to see how it comes out. Very satisfying and relaxing!

Cheers,

Sirhr

P.S. I get 18 patches from each sheet of paper... and I got sent 500 sheets! Since I don't see firing this 9,000 rounds in the immediate future... if someone wants some paper for trying out patching... let me know! It's cheap to mail! Sirhr

What? You, me and all the "likers" on this post all remember when this technology was new?

 

[Dog&Jeep]

Okay Gentlemen, you're getting me inspired.

I've been loading my Pedersoli with greaser bullets (and getting great results), but never made the move to paper patching. Time to change that.

 

[SmileMaker]

45-90 paper patched, Paul Jones "Money " bullet. My only qualm with paper patch and black powder is wiping between shots.

 

[acudaowner]

Love the pics and the guns was a tearjerker congrats on a great find . I have been dreaming of owning one or 6 having . Any plans since you are going to shoot 1k yards of going to the quigley challenge ?
this thing.

FORSYTH RIFLE & PISTOL CLUB

Matthew Quigley Buffalo Rifle Match is held annually in Forsyth, Montana and is a black powder cartridge rifle target match. It has been held for 25 years and is the largest match of its kind in the country with over 600 shooters.

www.quigleymatch.com

 

[sandwarrior]

View attachment 6877042

Cody Ballard #7 45-110 now topped by a DZ Arms 8x scope

I love the overstuffed chair as much as the rifle. I used to have a really nice overstuffed chair like that. Until one of my GSP's decided he needed to eat it piece by piece.

D'OH! just realized I quoted a two year old post.

 

[Supersubes]

I was just digging my BPCR stuff out the other day. Been packed away since our move two years ago. These bullets are out of custom brooks molds. The greaser is basically a Postel bullet and 530 grains. The PP bullet is flat based and 513 grains with 1:20 alloy. I really enjoy the paper patching. The PP bullet is well under bore size(.447 iirc) when patched so it can be loaded in a dirty bore. Shoots way better than you’d think it would. Im
loading for three variations of 1874 Shilohs in 45-70. Getting antsy to order a shiloh 1877 in a yet to be determined 40 cal. Maybe 40-70SS.

 

[SmileMaker]

Collection of bullets from 45 cal molds I have accumulated over the years: Paul Jones Creedmoor, NEI Gunn 349c, 349C nose pour, PJ Money & PJ Money paper patch. I had Brooks make a mold for a paper patch with two diameters so that when patched it can be both bore & groove diameter. Just a long range target round that I haven't had much time to experiment.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Your Finish on those is spectacular. I am not
Coming close on the Whitworth. Even though mold is hot and I am giving them a good set time.

Pedersoli steel mold. Lee production pot at full temp. About 3 percent tin on the hexagonal. Very short drop on the pour (less than 1/4”). They frost fast. Dropping into bucket of water for a chill.

What am I missing to get that level of finish???

sirhr

 

[Supersubes]

Your Finish on those is spectacular. I am not
Coming close on the Whitworth. Even though mold is hot and I am giving them a good set time.

Pedersoli steel mold. Lee production pot at full temp. About 3 percent tin on the hexagonal. Very short drop on the pour (less than 1/4”). They frost fast. Dropping into bucket of water for a chill.

What am I missing to get that level of finish???

sirhr

What do you mean “drop” on the pour? Like a stream of lead out the bottom of the pot? That could be your issue. I pour with a ladle, which remains in contact with the mold for a few seconds. “head pressure” I think it’s called, which fills the mold better. After that I’d say mold cleanliness or pot/ mold temperature.

 

[SmileMaker]

I pour with a ladle also and run my lead (usually 20:1) hot at around 850 - 900 F

 

[sirhrmechanic]

What do you mean “drop” on the pour? Like a stream of lead out the bottom of the pot? That could be your issue. I pour with a ladle, which remains in contact with the mold for a few seconds. “head pressure” I think it’s called, which fills the mold better. After that I’d say mold cleanliness or pot/ mold temperature.

Yes, that is the drop. I can try direct contact next batch. That puts a lot of head pressure on the mold. I will also give a good cleaning to my molds! Cheers!

 

[Old Soldier]

sirhmechanic, Your leads too hot. Thats why the frosting.
Punisher, go to the Single shot rifle forum. Lots of great info there.

 

[craigos]

I am picking up a Pendersoli Dixon Sharps 1874 with a 6x scope on it next weekend. This is my first forray into this type of gun. It is a 45-90. I would like to reload to shoot 600-1000 yds with it. My heart wants to reload black powder paper patch rounds but my brain say grease groove smokeless. I have no experience with anything but modern rifle reloading. Anyone here have experience in this area?

Ryan

I reload both a 1874 45-70 in blackpowder (both hard cast and paperwrapped) and a 1877 45-90 blackpowder in the same.

There are some fantastic books and resources as well as good youtube videos. Because BP is by volume, you need to compress the different powders differently, etc its a lot more work than modern reloading. Ping me happy to share what i have learnt.

 

[nesikabay]

Three books to help you on your way: SPG Lubricants BP Cartridge Reloading Primer by Mike Venturino & Steve Garbe, Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge by Paul Matthews and Loading and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets by Randolph Wright.View attachment 6875875

This ^

 

[TerryH]

The books listed so far are great starting points, if you want to look at PP then Randolph Write's book is pretty decent.

I like turned molds over cherry cut so something from BACo or Brooks drop tidy bullets.

Just starting to dabble with paper patch, you do not need to wipe between shots if you use a grease cookie, only need about 3/16" of bullet in the case.

BP is the way to go in these rifles, card or PE over powder wad, no air gap, probably a little bit of compression on the powder after using a drop tube. These rifles really are what shooting is about, don't get me wrong, I shoot the modern rifles but they have as much character as Kim Kardashian

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I am now on a quest to start making my own nitrated paper cartridges...

Advice is Curling papers (never heard of them until Google searching), rolling papers... which work great but are way more expensive. Or (and I am going to hell for just thinking of this)... snag a free Gideons Bible from your next hotel stay and the paper is perfect.

I mean... the Gideons do put it there to take it, right? And there is an old saying that goes something like "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition???"

Apparently Hi-Yield stump Remover from Ace Hardware is an ideal source of KNO3.

Anyone make their own Flash paper/nitrided paper? Any tips?

Cheers,

Sirhr

PS ordered high grade potassium nitrate from eBay... it’s being sold to pot growers for their hydro operations. So between rolling papers and saltpeter... I’m probably on another list...

 

[Old Soldier]

During the Revolution of 76, the most popular hymns and hymnal was put out by a guy named Watts. Paper for musket cartridges being in short supply a Patriot preacher cut up the hymnals and had his congregation roll cartridges with the paper. At the battle of Breed's Hill ( Bunker Hill) he could be heard shouting to "Give them Watts" This is where the expression "give them Whats for" came from. So, if you use the Gideon's bible paper to fight for Liberty, I'd say you'd be excused.

 

[lonegunman762x51]

You guys are killing me. I'm stuck working 7 extra days a month for the corona until maybe August and everyone is enjoying their black powder rifles. I did find a nice nice Lyman #55 new in the box with a drop tube at a pawn shop this winter. So I'm one step closer to loading smoke this year.

I do have a question. When using smokeless, I give the bullets an extra coating of Lee liquid alox and have had far less leading and accuracy is better. I'm not exactly sure why but it works for me. The cast bullets I used didn't have SPG lube, just the standard wax lube I've seen on cast pistol bullets.

 

[Old Soldier]

Leadding is caused by several things. Most commonly too small of a bullet. Bullets s/b .001-.002 over groove diameter. When a bullet is too small, it allows gas cutting around the bullet. Since extra lube helped you, I suspect that
you are trying to push a soft bullet faster than it's alloy or temper will allow. There are ways to fix the bullet, but the easy way, is to keep your velocity closer to 1100 fps or less. I know, NOT FUN. You must remember that during the black powder days, 1300 fps was screaming! They advertised 13-1500 fps, but the lied. A 500 grain 45 bullet at 1000 fps will completely penetrate a buffalo.Why do you need more? I know, to "flatten the trajectory." Look it up. You ain't flattening much. Not near enough to compensate for the recoil, and trouble. There are as I'm sure you know many benefits to being sub sonic. You can't keep a BP bullet super sonic very long anyway. Just start sub sonic and save the trouble, unless your shooting really far.
Another cause of leading is the wrong lube for your conditions, bullet, and barrel. Standard bullet lube usually works with smokeless powder. Are the grease groves sufficient on the bullet your using? Check your muzzle after 5 or so shots. The crown s/b greasy. If not there is a problem. When you decide to use BP, just get you some SPG. Be careful adding grease to your bullet, that you don't get too much extra lube in your barrel. You can build excess pressure PDQ that way. Have fun.

 

[craigos]

I love to see other Pual Jones enthusiasts, have ~ 10 of his moulds in 500+ gr 45 cal. Have a nice little 40 cal i picked up accidentally ...

 

[TerryH]

As per OS, use SPG lube on your BP bullets.

Pay attention to ‘filling’ the grease grooves when sizing, no little air gaps, especially the grooves near the base of the bullet. BP explodes and the bullet obdurates a bit, if there a void in the lube the bullet will deform to fill the void, if near the base of the bullet then the base will no longer be flat which effects accuracy when the bullet leaves the barrel. Cast BP bullet bases should be ‘sharp’ and fully formed not rounded as you’d find in say lead pistol bullets.

Not sure on keeping the velocity that low IMHO. Currrent 45-70 is running around 1170 with a 505g Money bullet/20:1/SPG and when I did shoot competitively (at distance) my 45-90 was at 1250 with 540g Money/20:1/SPG and performed very well for me.

But in close, say to 300 yards, 1050-1070 is cruising

T

 

[johnl]

Here are mine. All Shiloh’s 2, 50-90 and 2 45-70.

 

[JohnK454]

Great thread! Really enjoy shooting my 45-90 Shiloh with BP and bullets i cast myself. Mostly settled on a 530gr Postel over a compressed charge of Swiss 1.5. The bullet is lubed with a Paul Matthews formula. I use the Lyman 457125 in my original Trapdoor Carbine.

 

[JohnK454]

Speaking of casting for these big bullets, in my experience you need a very large spout orifice to use a bottom pour pot or you get very inconsistent results, particularly wasp-waists. I use a ladle. No need to water quench, or run the pot hot. Mine work fine at 1350fps with a nice lube star at the muzzle. All it needs is three breaths on the blowtube and you can shoot all day without wiping.

Also, casting technique and pot temp needs to be consistent to produce consistent weights. I found stacking them in a distribution pattern with .1gr increments in a batch helpful in refining my casting technique.

 

[Possumpete]

I recently picked up my new Shiloh in 45-70,and am already planning on getting a second in 45-90

 

[XTR]

Get a Waage pot for melting, great temp stability, for casting heavy bullets for long range it matters

@sirhrmechanic , I get the impression you‘re in VT. I’m over the river in NH. We should shoot some time

 

[Dog&Jeep]

A couple years back, when I bought a Pedersoli Sharps to find out if they're as much fun as they looked like, SirHrM and Buffalowinter welcomed me to my new obsession. I didn't understand that at the time. Now I do.

Tonight I just bought my third Sharps off of Gunbroker. It's a C. Sharps 1874 Sporting rifle. Never been fired. 34" barrel Chambered in 50-140. Here's a pic from the auction. It probably will be a week or so before I get my hands on it.

The price was just too good to pass up.

For the record, this makes Sharps #3.