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.22 br
- Thread starter Dai Bando
- Start date
Soooo....did my first "ladder test" yesterday. I put "ladder test" in quotations because I'm quite certain that I did not follow the process to the letter, but it was still informative.
A bit of background. I started out with 30.0 grns. of LeverRevolution and 88's. It shot well enough (at around 2,950 or so), but the couple times I chronographed it, the extreme spread was terrible (I only ran 3 rounds over my chrony, thought it may be "just my cheap chrony", but a friend's magnetospeed gave the same result), around 60-65 fps for just a few rounds! I had always just picked out a load that looked good, chronied it to be sure I wasn't too hot, shot a couple groups at one or two hundred yards and started yanking the press handle. I though only benchrest guys and guys that like to pick fly crap out of pepper worried about extreme spread and standard deviation, but when I figured out that spread meant about a foot of variation at 1,000 yards, it got my attention.
First, the 88 ELDM's and RL-16. I had ran a few over my old chrony to figure out what charge range I wanted to "ladder". I may have prejudiced my own results in the process, but I didn't want to be really slow, and didn't want to push things too much. We ran a magnetospeed and shot at 300 yards. Unfortunately, circumstances didn't allow us to drive back and forth to the target, and neither of us owns a spotting scope worth a crap. So I wasn't able to number the bullet holes in the target. But, looking at the numbers, I shouldn't be hard to figure out who landed where.
Rifle specs; Bighorn Origin, 24" Bartlein 5R, Rem Varmint/Sendero contour, .080" throat, chambered by Southern Precision. KRG Bravo, Burris XTR II 5-25, 9" SAS Arbiter Suppressor. I've posted a pic of it here before.
The round out of the group was #1. That was out of a cold bore. Everything else went into 1". Two of them into the same ragged hole. Looks like 31.6 is where I want to be.
Now the 95's and RL-16.
The wind kicked up a bit shooting 95's, and I felt like I may have pulled a couple. But it was all still in 4" and I'm betting I know where the three in the middle came from. Gonna load a few at 30.3 and see what happens on this one.
As far as seating depth, the 88's were loaded at 2.350" OAL. The 95's at 2.310" OAL.
As I've said, I'm aware we didn't run this test exactly how it needs to be done. But I would welcome any observations or opinions.
Thanks!
A bit of background. I started out with 30.0 grns. of LeverRevolution and 88's. It shot well enough (at around 2,950 or so), but the couple times I chronographed it, the extreme spread was terrible (I only ran 3 rounds over my chrony, thought it may be "just my cheap chrony", but a friend's magnetospeed gave the same result), around 60-65 fps for just a few rounds! I had always just picked out a load that looked good, chronied it to be sure I wasn't too hot, shot a couple groups at one or two hundred yards and started yanking the press handle. I though only benchrest guys and guys that like to pick fly crap out of pepper worried about extreme spread and standard deviation, but when I figured out that spread meant about a foot of variation at 1,000 yards, it got my attention.
First, the 88 ELDM's and RL-16. I had ran a few over my old chrony to figure out what charge range I wanted to "ladder". I may have prejudiced my own results in the process, but I didn't want to be really slow, and didn't want to push things too much. We ran a magnetospeed and shot at 300 yards. Unfortunately, circumstances didn't allow us to drive back and forth to the target, and neither of us owns a spotting scope worth a crap. So I wasn't able to number the bullet holes in the target. But, looking at the numbers, I shouldn't be hard to figure out who landed where.
Rifle specs; Bighorn Origin, 24" Bartlein 5R, Rem Varmint/Sendero contour, .080" throat, chambered by Southern Precision. KRG Bravo, Burris XTR II 5-25, 9" SAS Arbiter Suppressor. I've posted a pic of it here before.
The round out of the group was #1. That was out of a cold bore. Everything else went into 1". Two of them into the same ragged hole. Looks like 31.6 is where I want to be.
Now the 95's and RL-16.
The wind kicked up a bit shooting 95's, and I felt like I may have pulled a couple. But it was all still in 4" and I'm betting I know where the three in the middle came from. Gonna load a few at 30.3 and see what happens on this one.
As far as seating depth, the 88's were loaded at 2.350" OAL. The 95's at 2.310" OAL.
As I've said, I'm aware we didn't run this test exactly how it needs to be done. But I would welcome any observations or opinions.
Thanks!
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I shot a match last year running 31.6 of Rl16 in my old barrel. It stormed off and on and I found out I was over pressure with wet ammo. I have a ladder loaded with Rl16 for my new barrel starting at 30 and going up to 31.3 grains. I ran some of the 31.6 loads left from last year out of the new barrel and they averaged 3110 fps. I had the best accuracy out of my old barrel at 3000-3050 fps, so I am going to see if I can find a lower mode that I can run in the rain if needed.
It might not be a terrible idea to see what it does from, say, 30.6 to 31.2. It looks to me like there's a low node hanging out around 31.0 to 31.2, but I don't know how wide it is and it looks like it pops up pretty sharp at 31.4 or maybe even 31.3.
Your speeds are higher than mine, but you're probably running a longer barrel (I'm at 24").
I'll probably play at 31.6 or 31.7 for the time being.
Your speeds are higher than mine, but you're probably running a longer barrel (I'm at 24").
I'll probably play at 31.6 or 31.7 for the time being.
Shot some 88gr ELDMs over Rl16 last week. Loaded some at 30gr in brass with loose primer pockets to get a baseline. They were the only ones over .5 moa at 204 yards.
4x fired Lapus brass
Rl16
CCI450
88gr ELDM .020" off the lands
5 shots at each weight
30.2gr 2958 fps average 9 SD
30.5gr 2983 fps average 5 SD
30.8gr 3001 fps average 5 SD
31.1gr 3038 fps average 5 SD
31.3gr 3050 fps average 8 SD
Going to to try 30.8,30.9, 31.0 and 31.1 and see where I end up.
4x fired Lapus brass
Rl16
CCI450
88gr ELDM .020" off the lands
5 shots at each weight
30.2gr 2958 fps average 9 SD
30.5gr 2983 fps average 5 SD
30.8gr 3001 fps average 5 SD
31.1gr 3038 fps average 5 SD
31.3gr 3050 fps average 8 SD
Going to to try 30.8,30.9, 31.0 and 31.1 and see where I end up.
31.1 RL 16 ended up being the load. Less than 1.5" vertical at 415 yards in heavy mirage and a .16" 5 shot round robin group at 100. Match got canceled for the 25th due to the governor extending the stay at home until May 3rd. Will test it out to 800 soon.
Going to test the 88 gr eld m next week.
Just got my gun back together after changing the chassi, scope and stuff.
Going to continue with N150 as it seems be awesome in this calibre. Extremely temp stable and doesn't get the bore as dirty as some other powders...
Also got a bunch of 95 gr smk, going to test those to just for fun. But it's only a 1:7" twist barell so i'm not sure they are going to work well with that. Bought those for the next barell which will be a 1:6.5" twist. Not 100% sure on caliber yet tho, most likely another 22 BR but have a 22 Dasher reamer on order(but might take a while to get it now)...
Just got my gun back together after changing the chassi, scope and stuff.
Going to continue with N150 as it seems be awesome in this calibre. Extremely temp stable and doesn't get the bore as dirty as some other powders...
Also got a bunch of 95 gr smk, going to test those to just for fun. But it's only a 1:7" twist barell so i'm not sure they are going to work well with that. Bought those for the next barell which will be a 1:6.5" twist. Not 100% sure on caliber yet tho, most likely another 22 BR but have a 22 Dasher reamer on order(but might take a while to get it now)...
Hey guys, anyone running a 20" or shorter barrel and if so what speeds were you getting?
Thinking of doing a 20" 22BR/BRA for club PRS out to 550 yards max and curious to speak to anyone who might have something similar.
Cheers
Thinking of doing a 20" 22BR/BRA for club PRS out to 550 yards max and curious to speak to anyone who might have something similar.
Cheers
Haven't done it yet, but I have a 26" barrel with 1800 rounds on it that I am going to chop and set back to 20" and try it suppressed on coyotes.
I'm at 22" getting 2930 suppressed with 88eldm. This is not the top node but it shot so well, I left it alone.
30.2 RL16
30.2 RL16
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Is anyone still running the lighter heavies; 75 A Max's ,77 & 80 SMK's ? At the time I had mine built I only had a 300 yd. range, and a $hit pot full of the mentioned bullets so I went with a 26" 8T. Just got some H 4350, RL-16 & some 4451.
I shot just under 100 of the Berger 77gr OTM that didn't shoot well in my AR. I just loaded them over 28gr of 4166 for barrel break in. Shot really good out to 416 yards where I have a 12" plate for barricade practice. Not enough velocity gain to shoot the 75gr ELDM over the 88 at distance. I am really liking Rl16 with the 88gr ELDM. It should work fine with the lighter bullets too. Very temp stable in my 6.5 Creedmoor.
My barrel, 26" 7tw Bartlein sped up again at almost 400 rounds. I was getting 2958 with 30.2 of RL16 and am now up to 3030 fps with the same charge.
I have 200 of the 90gr A-Tips that I need to try in place of the 88s.
95's ran swimmingly in my 1:7. 30.3 grains of RL16 at about 2850. Nice flat node there in my rifle. Wind blew like hell the day I tried to shoot them, but they didn't shoot any worse than 88's at 600 and 1000.
I like them, but I don't think they'll do anything that 88's won't do for less money. Might be a different story in a .22 Creed case.
90 A-tips look pretty badass, but jeez they are proud of them.
I shot some A-Tips with RL16, 29.4 to 30.2 in .2 increments. Had a good node between 29.6 and 30.2. so I shot some more at 30. The 88s shot better so far, but it was really windy last night. The 88s with 30.2 of Rl16 give me 3030 fps out of my 26" 1:7, SD of 4 and ES of 14.
Awesome.
Tested the 88 gr eld m, and got some promising results with the N-150 powder at around 3000 fps.
Going to test the 95 gr SMK next, and see what it can do.
Wish i could get my hands on some RL-16, but seems to impossible here in Europe...
Tested the 88 gr eld m, and got some promising results with the N-150 powder at around 3000 fps.
Going to test the 95 gr SMK next, and see what it can do.
Wish i could get my hands on some RL-16, but seems to impossible here in Europe...
Been reading and collecting loading data, and here is what I have for the 88 ELD M
1. 28.5 - 29.5 Varget
2. 29.0 H 4895
3.30.0 LeverRevolution
4. 30.5 RL-16
Also on hand; H & I 4350, H 380, & I 4451
My Remage barrel should arrive today, anymore suggestions will be greatly appreciated
1. 28.5 - 29.5 Varget
2. 29.0 H 4895
3.30.0 LeverRevolution
4. 30.5 RL-16
Also on hand; H & I 4350, H 380, & I 4451
My Remage barrel should arrive today, anymore suggestions will be greatly appreciated
Depending on your chamber, I would start at 27.0 or lower with H4895 and 28.0 or lower with Varget and the 88gr ELDM. I ruined some brass with my first shots with 28gr of H4895. I ended up at 26.8 to 27.3 grains getting a little over 3020 fps. 28.8 of Varget was great in my first barrel, but blew a primer in my new barrel cut with the same reamer.
Baddog,
If you try LeverRevolution, be aware of a couple of things, first, it does not enjoy a reputation for temperature stability, secondly, ladder up to 30 grains from 28 or so.
I just spitballed 30 grains, it shot well enough at 100 yards, I was still forming out brass and getting used to the rifle and shooting at distance, so I didn't fret it. But that load had a 65fps extreme spread that will come back to bite you at long range. A quick ladder test would likely reduce that and I'd consider 30 grains top end with 88's.
The good news about 'Lever is that it flows like water through my old Uni-Flow (which is pretty tempermental) and it's dense enough that I want to try it with 75's (you can fit a lot of it in the case, more so than RL16).
FWIW, I'm really liking '16 with 88's and 95's at the moment, just be aware you'll want to funnel it in to the cases slowly with a bit of a drop tube (I've got an old MTM funnel with about a 6" drop tube) as it's easy to run out of room with it (for those who have followed this thread, I'm likely NOT gonna try RL22 at this point
).
Posty,
THANK YOU, summer is almost here with 90* days , unless it rains . I'll save the Lever R for fireforming cases . With 600 yds as my limit I'll try RL 16 & 17 with the 88 ELDs as well as the Nosler 85 RDF's. I picked up a lot of 80 SMK's at an estate sale so finding loads for those will be another project
Again, Thanks
THANK YOU, summer is almost here with 90* days , unless it rains . I'll save the Lever R for fireforming cases . With 600 yds as my limit I'll try RL 16 & 17 with the 88 ELDs as well as the Nosler 85 RDF's. I picked up a lot of 80 SMK's at an estate sale so finding loads for those will be another project
Again, Thanks
I did, but most don't and just rely on fireforming to get rid of the donut. I feel like most people don't think about the inner donut though.
I bought the K&M neck turning tool, and after fooling with it a bit, didn't see the point. Though as the Displaced Texan says, I may not be channeling my inner donut.
One thing, run either a Forster and get the neck honed or a Redding Bushing FL die. I made the mistake of buying the regular Redding FL die thinking it would eliminate the donut, but it sizes necks WAY too far down, resulting in an even worse donut (outer, and quite likely, inner), along with several crushed shoulders.
I bought the Redding Bushing Neck die, but I still need something (likely the Redding Bushing FL) to bump shoulders with eventually.
One thing, run either a Forster and get the neck honed or a Redding Bushing FL die. I made the mistake of buying the regular Redding FL die thinking it would eliminate the donut, but it sizes necks WAY too far down, resulting in an even worse donut (outer, and quite likely, inner), along with several crushed shoulders.
I bought the Redding Bushing Neck die, but I still need something (likely the Redding Bushing FL) to bump shoulders with eventually.
I've run a couple pounds now of the Shooter's World Precision Rifle. They market it as comparing favorably with Varget. To an extent it does.
Myself and a friend also running it experienced the same issue. I was at 29.7grs, he is at 29.6grs, both of us just below or just over 3000fps using 88gr ELDMs. Both of us experience some heavy bolt lift with the PR that we dont see in Varget. So you are more limited on velocity with Precision Rifle as it hits pressure sooner. And this has all been in cooler weather.
I spoke to a guy at Shooters World who expressed surprise. He speculated I was running a faster lot of Varget, because it varies from lot to lot. But I've run nearly 24lbs of Varget through my 22BR, and I'm pretty sure I can hit 3100fps without pressure from every keg of Varget I used.
So Varget seems like the powder of choice at the moment. I may try some RL16 as guys seem to be having some success with it.
I'm testing the 85.5gr Berger Hybrid and the 95gr SMK right now. So I may include the RL16 in that. I'll probably have to get creative as this chamber only has a .050 freebore. I suspect I may have to chase that out a bit with a throater for the SMK.
Anyone land on a good freebore for that bullet?
Myself and a friend also running it experienced the same issue. I was at 29.7grs, he is at 29.6grs, both of us just below or just over 3000fps using 88gr ELDMs. Both of us experience some heavy bolt lift with the PR that we dont see in Varget. So you are more limited on velocity with Precision Rifle as it hits pressure sooner. And this has all been in cooler weather.
I spoke to a guy at Shooters World who expressed surprise. He speculated I was running a faster lot of Varget, because it varies from lot to lot. But I've run nearly 24lbs of Varget through my 22BR, and I'm pretty sure I can hit 3100fps without pressure from every keg of Varget I used.
So Varget seems like the powder of choice at the moment. I may try some RL16 as guys seem to be having some success with it.
I'm testing the 85.5gr Berger Hybrid and the 95gr SMK right now. So I may include the RL16 in that. I'll probably have to get creative as this chamber only has a .050 freebore. I suspect I may have to chase that out a bit with a throater for the SMK.
Anyone land on a good freebore for that bullet?
Did some testing on the 95gr SMK over this weekend. The freebore has to be run out pretty far to accommodate it, the bullet is 1.288" in length. It's essentially the same length and BC as the 6MM 109gr Berger Hybrid. Great bullet, but too heavy for the little BR case to get up to speed.
I ran my freebore out to .180" and tested a bunch of charge weights. 2850 to 2900fps is achievable, but that pretty much puts it right there with the Dasher in drop and wind. So if you want Dasher performance with less powder and no fireforming, here's a good route.
Personally it wasn't what I was shooting for. So I'm going back to 88's and testing the 85.5 Hybrid. I worked up a new 88gr ELDM Varget load at the new freebore length and ended up shooting a .2 group at .040" jump while testing seating depths between .020, .040, .060, .080, and .100". Velocity testing on my Magnetospeed gave me a 2 SD, 7fps ES with that depth at 29grs of Varget. From .040 to .100" jump everything shot from a .2 to .5 moa. The ES from .020 to .100" jump was only 29fps. So that freebore looks good, but I do believe it's a hair longer than neccessary. I think I'm going to get with Manson and get a new reamer with a .256 neck and a .150" freebore. I think that is going to be money for the 80gr plus bullets.
I ordered a new MTU 7" twist Hawk Hill barrel in .224 to build a 22 Creedmoor. I'm going to run the 95gr SMKs in that.
I ran my freebore out to .180" and tested a bunch of charge weights. 2850 to 2900fps is achievable, but that pretty much puts it right there with the Dasher in drop and wind. So if you want Dasher performance with less powder and no fireforming, here's a good route.
Personally it wasn't what I was shooting for. So I'm going back to 88's and testing the 85.5 Hybrid. I worked up a new 88gr ELDM Varget load at the new freebore length and ended up shooting a .2 group at .040" jump while testing seating depths between .020, .040, .060, .080, and .100". Velocity testing on my Magnetospeed gave me a 2 SD, 7fps ES with that depth at 29grs of Varget. From .040 to .100" jump everything shot from a .2 to .5 moa. The ES from .020 to .100" jump was only 29fps. So that freebore looks good, but I do believe it's a hair longer than neccessary. I think I'm going to get with Manson and get a new reamer with a .256 neck and a .150" freebore. I think that is going to be money for the 80gr plus bullets.
I ordered a new MTU 7" twist Hawk Hill barrel in .224 to build a 22 Creedmoor. I'm going to run the 95gr SMKs in that.
My throat's pretty short at .080 (likely a bit longer now), but I didn't have any trouble with 95's (I'm sure I had quite a bit of bullet below the neck, but I'm too lazy to look at my notes).
I came to the conclusion that .22BR speeds, the 95's don't do anything 88's don't do (they seemed to shoot fine, just more money). At 3000fps out of a Creed case, it's a little different story.....
I came to the conclusion that .22BR speeds, the 95's don't do anything 88's don't do (they seemed to shoot fine, just more money). At 3000fps out of a Creed case, it's a little different story.....
I'm sure the 95GR SMK will shoot with a shorter freebore. But it's far from optimal. Lining up the boattail juncture slightly above the shoulder/neck juncture of the case measured .150 to the lands. So at .080 freebore, you are approximately .070 into the case while touching the lands. Any jump puts you further into the case.
It will shoot like that, but its limiting velocity and case capacity. You will hit pressure sooner.
As you pointed out, at that point, you may as well stick with the 88gr. It can easily be pushed over 3k with it's slightly reduced weight and shorter bearing surface. And can overcome the slower velocity, higher BC of the 95gr.
It will shoot like that, but its limiting velocity and case capacity. You will hit pressure sooner.
As you pointed out, at that point, you may as well stick with the 88gr. It can easily be pushed over 3k with it's slightly reduced weight and shorter bearing surface. And can overcome the slower velocity, higher BC of the 95gr.
Got my 22 br running good now. Made the switch from 88s/varget/swpr to 95s and RL26. 2894 fps low node sd of less than 5. Had them up to 2940 but the accuracy wasn't what I wanted. Plus the extra 46 fps didn't gain me anything extra but less barrel life. 
Sweet!
I'm probably sticking with 88's, but I still do have most of a box of 95's I'll eventually load and shoot.
I'm running RL16 and found a nice node at 30.3 right on top of 2850 with 95's.
I love this cartridge in that, after minimal fooling around with it, it's pretty predictable. Even something as slow as '26 runs swimmingly.
Just curious, what barrel length and throat are you running?
I'm probably sticking with 88's, but I still do have most of a box of 95's I'll eventually load and shoot.
I'm running RL16 and found a nice node at 30.3 right on top of 2850 with 95's.
I love this cartridge in that, after minimal fooling around with it, it's pretty predictable. Even something as slow as '26 runs swimmingly.
Just curious, what barrel length and throat are you running?
26 in Hawk Hill 7 twist. No idea on the throat as I had my smith throat it for 88s at the neck/ shoulder junction. Running the 95s at 20 thou from hard jam.
What are your chamber specs? I have had great sd and es with RL16 and the 88gr ELDM. I have some 90 gr A-Tips, but haven't tried them yet.
All I know is that it's a. 253 neck. Just a regular 22 br chamber.
Boy, that's a tight neck.. are you running Lapua brass?
Nick at Straight Jacket Amory has built about 100 of these. He gave up on the .254 neck and went to a .256 with .100 freebore.
Manson messed up my first reamer and sent me a .252. It overpressured and wouldnt even feed properly. My new reamer is .255 for my .250 loaded OD.
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Opened up a new jug of powder. Old load was 33.1 @ 2894. New jug load is 32.9 @ 2954. Same or better accuracy.
They sent me a reamer print and I didn't look it over real close. It was a .252 neck, even though I requested a .255. So I didn't make a big stink over it, I should have caught it.
But .252 only works if you neck turn. Which I won't do.
Just wanted to say they had a replacement reamer to me in a week. Happy with the customer service!
A great point. And I had the same experience. They took very good care of me on that issue.
I've ordered several reamers from them since, their service is excellent..
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So neck turning... is it necessary or not? Or completely dependent on neck diameter/chamber?
I have zero interest in turning or really having to do anything beyond the normal size down - load - shoot.
I have plenty of virgin BR brass, RL16 and 88s. Thinking this could be an option... if I can be lazy with loading.
I have zero interest in turning or really having to do anything beyond the normal size down - load - shoot.
I have plenty of virgin BR brass, RL16 and 88s. Thinking this could be an option... if I can be lazy with loading.
I refuse to neck turn.
Its a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist. Get the right reamer dimensions.
Its a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist. Get the right reamer dimensions.
I've noticed and measured that necking down can cause the necks to get thicker towards the base of the neck. Turning has helped with my neck tension consistency, seating depth consistency, and reduce flyers. Saw this with my 22 Creed and I'm seeing it with my 22BR. I guess results may vary
I run a .222 mandrel from Sinclair through all my brass so I get consistency. Its on the second station of my progressive reloader, so it doesn't add any time to my reloading process. It gives me .002 neck tension and a .252 OD on the neck. It pretty much eliminates any issues.
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I use the same mandrel after sizing. What I noticed at first seating started easier than it finished when the necks aren't turned. Hypothetically, since the brass of the neck gets progressively thicker as it goes down the tension will be higher as you go down. Just out of curiosity have you measured the top and bottom of the neck with a mandrel in the neck or a long bullet seated? I saw at .002" difference from top to bottom. It could be an issue with the particular lot of brass I have when necking down.
