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.22 br
- Thread starter Dai Bando
- Start date
Any info on 95 SMKs? I'm trying to find the right cartridge to launch the 95s at 3000+ comfortably. Something smaller than Creemoor preferably so I can still use Varget/Precision/etc or similar burn rate powders.
That's the top end of the 22 BR.. May want to look at the 22 BRA, 22 Dasher, 22 GT
Clipped the top of the back of this one 254 yards 22br 85.5s 3030 fps and the wife shot the other one with a 223ai 85.5s 2900fps 117 yards. Carnage and amazing performance.
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You will not get there with Varget and 95 smk. I ran a ladder and at 28.4 (2948 with 26" bbl) I got a heavy bolt lift and stopped. Try 22GT?
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22gt does not like varget for the heavies, which surprised me and made for some frustrations. H4350 and 90 atips at 3170 in a 26" 5 round groups
I'm on my 3rd barrel now for the 22BR. Its been very consistent and easy to shoot.
I pulled my first barrel at 2400 rounds, and the second one at 2700 rounds. It was still accurate, but velocity was dropping off. If I wasn't competing with it I easily could have ran those barrels over 3000 rounds.
I'm at 2920fps now at over 2600 rounds on this barrel. Pretty much running 29grs Varget throughout its life under an 88gr ELDM. I started it at .040 jump just like the others and haven't touched it. I'm sure its jumping .100 or more by now. Its still bugholing. I won the local PRS match with it in March. I definitely like the way they shoot at less than 3000fps versus more. I ran a faster node for a while on the first barrel (3050fps). Ive found them to be much easier to run at the 2990fps node I keep hitting. As the barrel wears my velocity slowly drops, but my SDs and accuracy remains very good throughout.
I've ran a barrel on .050 freebore, .100 freebore and .180 freebore. I experimented with the 95gr SMK on that last one. I found i just couldn't get the velocity I was after with that bullet. There are better cartridges to push the 95 grainer.
I've run the 85.5gr Hybrid alongside the 88gr ELDM and determined there wasn't much justification in the added cost of the Hybrid. Head to head on a big plate at 1250 yards they both performed very similarly, but the Hornady is almost half the cost.
I ran a 22", a 26", and a 28" barrel. Performance was great throughout. Ran a can on the 22 incher.
I really love the round. It's treated me well. Far better in fact than my 6GT running 109gr LRHTs. Maybe when I'm 3 barrels into that rifle I'll have it all figured out as well.
I pulled my first barrel at 2400 rounds, and the second one at 2700 rounds. It was still accurate, but velocity was dropping off. If I wasn't competing with it I easily could have ran those barrels over 3000 rounds.
I'm at 2920fps now at over 2600 rounds on this barrel. Pretty much running 29grs Varget throughout its life under an 88gr ELDM. I started it at .040 jump just like the others and haven't touched it. I'm sure its jumping .100 or more by now. Its still bugholing. I won the local PRS match with it in March. I definitely like the way they shoot at less than 3000fps versus more. I ran a faster node for a while on the first barrel (3050fps). Ive found them to be much easier to run at the 2990fps node I keep hitting. As the barrel wears my velocity slowly drops, but my SDs and accuracy remains very good throughout.
I've ran a barrel on .050 freebore, .100 freebore and .180 freebore. I experimented with the 95gr SMK on that last one. I found i just couldn't get the velocity I was after with that bullet. There are better cartridges to push the 95 grainer.
I've run the 85.5gr Hybrid alongside the 88gr ELDM and determined there wasn't much justification in the added cost of the Hybrid. Head to head on a big plate at 1250 yards they both performed very similarly, but the Hornady is almost half the cost.
I ran a 22", a 26", and a 28" barrel. Performance was great throughout. Ran a can on the 22 incher.
I really love the round. It's treated me well. Far better in fact than my 6GT running 109gr LRHTs. Maybe when I'm 3 barrels into that rifle I'll have it all figured out as well.
Which freebore did you like the best and what is your neck diameter? I have two barrels that I used the .050 with a .252 neck and I need a .254 neck for better clearance. Shoots really accurate, but I don't want to neck turn.
Yeh, I hate neck turning. I wont do it.
My first reamer from Manson was a .252 neck. It shot like hell with unturned necks. So I reordered in a .255, which has turned out to be perfect. My loaded OD is .252, and a bullet will slide into the case neck of a fired round with a little resistance.
I like the .100 freebore the best. The .180 was to play with the SMK, which didn't work out. The .050 actually shot really well. I ran 28.5grs of Varget throughout that barrels life and it was easy peasy to load and shoot. But at .050 freebore your down past the neck shoulder juncture and there is "potential" to have issues with thicker brass down there due to being downsized. Using a mandrel for consistent ID really cleans that up though.. Ideally I think .120 is the perfect starting point for 88s, but seeing as how the industry has landed on reamer standards at .100 FB, a guy can run with that.
In every barrel I slapped the 88 at .040 jump and just ran with it. In over 7500 rounds fired I've never needed to adjust my seating depth.
Really debating between running a 6BR w/ 95gr TMKs or 22BR w/ 88gr ELD-Ms. Read to page 2 (plan to read the rest tomorrow) and I'm really leaning towards a 22BR now. Really wish Peterson made 22BR. I have never necked down anything.
What velocity would you guess you were to get out of a 26" barrel with 88gr/80gr/75gr ELDM?
I'm guessing 3,050/3,125/3,200ish?
Assuming;
75gr/3,185 (22BR)
80gr/3,125 (22BR)
88gr/3,050 (22BR)
95gr/3,125 (6BR)
Elevation:
0-300yards: equal across the board (0.0-1.0 mils)
400-800: 75gr> (1.6-5.0 mils)
800-1000: 75gr + 88gr (6.2-7.4 mils)
1000-1500: 88gr> (8.8-16.1 mils)
Wind (10mph):
0-300yards: equal across the board (0.2-0.5 mils)
400-1500: 88gr> (0.6-3.6 mils)
I think I am pretty set on 22BR running 88grs.
I'm guessing 3,050/3,125/3,200ish?
Assuming;
75gr/3,185 (22BR)
80gr/3,125 (22BR)
88gr/3,050 (22BR)
95gr/3,125 (6BR)
Elevation:
0-300yards: equal across the board (0.0-1.0 mils)
400-800: 75gr> (1.6-5.0 mils)
800-1000: 75gr + 88gr (6.2-7.4 mils)
1000-1500: 88gr> (8.8-16.1 mils)
Wind (10mph):
0-300yards: equal across the board (0.2-0.5 mils)
400-1500: 88gr> (0.6-3.6 mils)
I think I am pretty set on 22BR running 88grs.
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I dont think that node at 3050fps is a great fit for the 88gr ELDM. I spent a little time shooting my first barrel at that node, it was far more finicky. The SDs were loose goosy and less consistent, as were the groups.
I dropped to the next node down at 2990fps, and it all came together. Low SDs consistently and nice groups. Its slowly dropped to 2920fps on my barrel that has over 2500 rounds on it, but its still low SDs and shooting great.
That's good to know. I'll adjust speeds across the board but I feel like 88grs will still win out in wind. Additionally, the 95gr TMK in 6BR are likely 75fps too fast. With that said, the 22BR exceedingly outperforms.
I'm wanting to build a rifle for local matches, most 600yards, and in.
Thats exactly what I use mine for. Local matches 1100 yards and in.
The 22BR with an 88gr ELDM at 2990fps is right there neck and neck with a 6 Dasher flinging a 105 Hybrid at 2850fps.
Any issues with bullets blowing up? That’s what I am currently reading with 22BR & ELDMs + SMKs.
I've never blown up a bullet in my BR.
I popped some 95gr SMKs at 3170fps from my 7" twist 22 Creedmoor. But I've never seen a jacket failure from my 7" twist 22BR.
3000fps is about 308,000rpms in a 7" twist. Pretty safe range. As you approach 320,000rpms, things can get a little sporty. Thats a little north of 3100fps.
What rifling in your barrels?
Seems 4 groove cut rifling is hardest on jackets when pushing them to upper limits.
More /shallower grooves seem better...
It’s weird you were having issues pushing the 95gr SMK’s in the 22cm at those speeds. I’m running them in my 22GT (kreiger 4 groove, 26”, 1/6.5tw, standard bore size) at 3240 and they’re making it to the target @ 100yds. Dropped speeds due to pressure at that speed but it shot good.
I actually agree with you. I dont think those jackets should have been failing like that.
I wasn't really seeing an issue in load development. I took the rifle to an NRL match with about 300 rounds on it and a good shooting load, and had about a 15% failure rate. I popped about 35 bullets over the weekend. I ended up not scoring very well
I've seen where people were running a lot of good loads at faster RPMs than me, so I'm not certain of the cause. I ended up abandoning the 22 Creed as a PRS rifle. Its a great varminter, but more finicky than I wanted for competition. I recut the barrel for my 22BR.
If I wanted a fast 22 for competition I think the 22GT is the Cat's meow. My buddy runs his at 3100fps and got nearly 3000 rounds out of his first barrel. Mostly running 88gr ELDs, but he shot some 90gr Atips at some bigger matches.
How long ago were you having these issues? Maybe they changed something? But I’m gonna be doing a seating depth test and then get them out to distance so I may have issues further out. Yet to be seen lol that’s promising to see that many rounds out of a barrel tho. I almost went with a 22BR and I still might depending on how invested I get into 22GT 
Last September was the NRL match. I tinkered with the round, slowing it down, etc. Finally decided it just wasn't where I wanted it to be after about 800 rounds down the pipe, and had it rechambered to the BR. I have a bunch of Berger 85.5gr Hybrids that I load developed for that barrel, then pulled it as my back up and put another barrel on it that I shoot 88s through.How long ago were you having these issues? Maybe they changed something? But I’m gonna be doing a seating depth test and then get them out to distance so I may have issues further out. Yet to be seen lol that’s promising to see that many rounds out of a barrel tho. I almost went with a 22BR and I still might depending on how invested I get into 22GT
I like the 22BR as my club gun. Its super cheap to shoot with 88s and it is so easy to load and maintain tje load over a very long period without having to mess with it. It has those great BR case characteristics.
My main comp rifle is now a 6GT running 115gr DTACs at 2850fps.. But I think the 22GT is brilliant as well. If I didnt already have the BR I would have leaned hard towards a 22GT. But as I already have a 22BR, I went 6GT instead.
i built a 22 brx and had a custom reamer spun up. 95s at 3150 in a 28" tube..... it was freaking amazing. going to do another with a shorter throat for the 75 elds on a 16" barrel for killing dogs
FYI this isn't accurate! I have a 22br Redding bushing FL. My die sizes 6br necks down without a bushing in it. You can use a 6br bushing die for 22br but not the 22br bushing die for the 6br. Just saying don't buy the 22br bushing FL die thinking you can use it for 6br also.
Well how odd is that. And the neck sizing aperture on yours is the proper size for 6BR without a bushing? I think yours is goofed up
Mine requires a bushing for both 6mm and .22. It doesn't touch the neck on the 6BR with nothing in there. I use a .248 bushing for my 22BR, and for the 6BR the same .270 bushing that I use on my 6 Creedmoor. With my 6 Creedmoor die I'm able to load 22 Creedmoor, 6 Creedmoor, and 6.5mm Creedmoor by swapping the bushing.
You must have a different version than I have.
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You have a 22br type S bushing FL and not the 6br? If you have the 6br marked die that's the difference. No it's not the "proper" size to size down to 22br without a bushing but it does size the neck down to .25x"(at work and don't remember the exact size but I think it's .256") without a bushing inserted. It's actually really nice for forming virgin 6br to 22br because it step sizes it instead of just be shoved directly into a .247" bushing. Almost like progressively using smaller bushings without actually having to swap bushings.Well how odd is that. And the neck sizing aperture on yours is the proper size for 6BR without a bushing? I think yours is goofed up
Mine requires a bushing for both 6mm and .22. It doesn't touch the neck on the 6BR with nothing in there. I use a .248 bushing for my 22BR, and for the 6BR the same .270 bushing that I use on my 6 Creedmoor. With my 6 Creedmoor die I'm able to load 22 Creedmoor, 6 Creedmoor, and 6.5mm Creedmoor by swapping the bushing.
You must have a different version than I have.
Yeh, that's interesting. Mine is the 22BR Remington Redding type S FL resize die. Mismarked from Redding maybe?
Funny you should mention that about step sizing. I used to do that for the first year. Then I shot a match with a guy running a 6BR with Norma brass (I use Lapua) and I ended up with some of it mixed in with mine. I run a progressive loader, so his fed down and got resized, I felt it was stiffer on the press, so pulled them out and caught the error every time I got one. I remember that I resized and pulled out like a half dozen of them. And looking at them later, they resized perfectly in one pass. That was the last time I stepped them down.
I've probably resized 500 or 600 pieces in one pass now. It works just fine.When I sized with a Redding non-bushing 22br FL sizing die I noticed that the majority of the bottom of the necks got pushed down into the shoulders a bit leaving it concaved at the neck shoulder junction. Now I have a custom honed Forster FL sizer and the Redding bushing FL sizer that I use for different circumstances.Yeh, that's interesting. Mine is the 22BR Remington Redding type S FL resize die. Mismarked from Redding maybe?
Funny you should mention that about step sizing. I used to do that for the first year. Then I shot a match with a guy running a 6BR with Norma brass (I use Lapua) and I ended up with some of it mixed in with mine. I run a progressive loader, so his fed down and got resized, I felt it was stiffer on the press, so pulled them out and caught the error every time I got one. I remember that I resized and pulled out like a half dozen of them. And looking at them later, they resized perfectly in one pass. That was the last time I stepped them down.
I am told that this is common and the shoulder build-up will push out during fireforming.
There's a bit of a doughnut on the first sizing. I use a mandrel on mine so it doesn't effect the internal dimensions. Then its gone after the first firing.
It may be common but it's also easily avoidable by either using a bushing sizing die or using a full-length sizing die that's been honed out close to(-.002) where you want the neck diameter to be before seating. As far as the donut goes using a mandrel helps but doesn't fully eliminate it so if you don't want to use a donut cutter your best bet is to set your freebore up to where your bullet is seated above where it forms.
The doughnut isn't enough of a problem to justify chasing after a fix. The mandrel sets the inside diameter exactly where it needs to be. It resizes the entire inside diameter. Fire it once and its gone. Seating becomes uniform even below the neck shoulder juncture.
There are zero issues with it even on the first firing. I've shot matches with first time fired brass running SDs of 8 to 10 and bugholing. I ran 88's in my first barrel with a .050 freebore and a .040 jump. I shot 28.5grs of Varget through that barrel for 2500 rounds without having to tinker, chase lands, change powder, nothing. It shot like a dream seated well below the shoulder for the life of the barrel.
If a rifle doesn't shoot as it should, a guy can start digging for a cause. I have a pair of 22BRs, one on an Axiom, one on a Tempest, I'm spinning on my 5th and 6th BR barrel this weekend, and every barrel prior has been easy peasy to load and shoot. I've never once in all the brass I've resized and shot seen an issue.. My money is on ignore the doughnut.
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I think you think the donut is gone because you are using a bushing die and they don't size the full length of the neck. If you run it through a non bushing full length die you'll see that it's still there even after using a mandrel because brass does rebound and unless you are turning necks the necks are thicker at the bottom. I know this to be true after trial and error with 3 different dies and a k&m neck turning tool with a donut cutting turning mandrel. Even after running a .224 sizing mandrel down the neck my .223 turning mandrel still cuts the donut at the bottom of the neck. You are doing it the easiest way by running a larger neck chamber and not sizing the donut area. Which works well if you have access a .254" or larger necked reamer.
If you are happy with how your gun shoots then doesn't really matter what's up with the brass. I've had rifles that shoot damn near anything awesome and ones that need special attention during load development. I know most people avoid any extra work if possible but I tend to like to eliminate variables if it only takes a bit of work. Not saying this is "the only way" but having correct information is helpful for troubleshooting issues that may arise.
I agree. And you make good points. The extra bit of brass isn't gone and I agree with you that a reloader should understand that in the event it does cause issues.
I've evolved into a "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" reloader. Simply from spending so much damn time at the bench that sometimes it just isn't fun anymore, and it becomes a last minute affair to load 300 rounds for a match. Because I've procrastinated.
Fortunately the 22BR truly has been one of the easiest rifles to develop and load for. I can just toss the same load into damn near every barrel and take it out. It will bughole with single digit SDs. I've shot 88 ELDs, 85.5 Hybrids, and even experimented with 95gr SMKs. The 88s at .040 have been money in every barrel from .050, .100, and .180 freebore (my SMK experiment barrel) .
So you make good points, and I dont mean to sound like I'm discounting your methods. Reloading is part art form to many people, everyone has their comfort zone of reloading practices that they simply have to maintain in order have a level of confidence in their rounds.
I've evolved into a "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" reloader. Simply from spending so much damn time at the bench that sometimes it just isn't fun anymore, and it becomes a last minute affair to load 300 rounds for a match. Because I've procrastinated.
Fortunately the 22BR truly has been one of the easiest rifles to develop and load for. I can just toss the same load into damn near every barrel and take it out. It will bughole with single digit SDs. I've shot 88 ELDs, 85.5 Hybrids, and even experimented with 95gr SMKs. The 88s at .040 have been money in every barrel from .050, .100, and .180 freebore (my SMK experiment barrel) .
So you make good points, and I dont mean to sound like I'm discounting your methods. Reloading is part art form to many people, everyone has their comfort zone of reloading practices that they simply have to maintain in order have a level of confidence in their rounds.
Yeah, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you but more so trying to add info. My reamer is a .255" neck .195" freebore and I'm actually prepping virgin 6br Lapua brass the same way you do for a match this weekend because I don't time to do those extra steps. It's a new barrel but I'm sure it will shoot just fine without those extra steps.
I completely understand your mentality.... I shot lots of 2 day PRS matches 2016-2018, a couple in 2019, 1 in 2020, 0 in 2021 because I've pretty much switched to all 1 day matches. I hate reloading but I'm also detail oriented so my solution to that is to just shoot less at the match plus I tend to have more fun at 1 day matches. I don't have the time, money, or willpower to be competitive at 2 day matches anymore. I might jump into a 2 day again if the venue looks awesome.
I run that neck size as well on my Manson reamer. And I do have to say, that .180 freebore treated me pretty good.
It took a smidge more powder. The two barrels prior were solid at 28.5grs. I loaded the longer freebore load at 29grs. But it shot great all the way through. And was still shooting great when I pulled it at 2500 rounds. I honestly would have left it on but had a big match to go to. It was still shooting plenty good for local stuff.
I would have loved to give the 95gr SMK a go, but it was fairly high pressure even down at 2850fps. Its just too long and creates too much pressure...
The 95gr smk must be very barrel dependent. I ran a quick pressure test on it the other day and I hit mild pressure at 30.5 grs of Varget going 3016fps. The barrel is a 28" Krieger 7 twist only has 25ish rounds on it. I hit pressure much earlier on my 28" Mueller 7 twist. I think it was low 2900s
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Boy isn't that the truth. I hear velocity numbers all over the board with them.
My Proof barrel is so tight that even 88s are faster and higher pressure than my .237 bore Hawk Hills. Running SMKs in my 22 Creedmoor drove me nuts. I was popping them at 3100fps in a 7" twist. But other people have been able to run them over 3200fps in that round with 7 twist.
Good bullet, good BC, but the effects on jacket integrity are heavily influenced by barrel type.
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