.22 br

#851
NFshooter150 said:
What twist do you run and what would you recommend if building around the 85.5 I'm thinking 7.5
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Currently I have a 24" 7" twist, Bartlein 5R. Going to a 26" 1:7.5" per @padom's post earlier in this thread, still Bartlein 5R. Pretty sure it's a 0.218 bore rather than the 0.219" that people seem to like, but I was getting near the end of my current barrel and needed something soon.

I'm at 2500 rounds, standard Bartlein stainless, and it's possible that the barrel has slowed down about 30 fps but it's hard to tell cause I've changed away from the 88gr I was running to the 85.5s. They both did well for me, I wouldn't stress if I had to run 88's again.

New barrel is the MODBB, curious to see how it compares. In particular, hoping the rumors of it cleaning easier are true, and if it gives 50% better barrel life it'll more than pay for itself in the replacement barrel cost alone.
 
#852
KnowNothing256 said:
Currently I have a 24" 7" twist, Bartlein 5R. Going to a 26" 1:7.5" per @padom's post earlier in this thread, still Bartlein 5R. Pretty sure it's a 0.218 bore rather than the 0.219" that people seem to like, but I was getting near the end of my current barrel and needed something soon.

I'm at 2500 rounds, standard Bartlein stainless, and it's possible that the barrel has slowed down about 30 fps but it's hard to tell cause I've changed away from the 88gr I was running to the 85.5s. They both did well for me, I wouldn't stress if I had to run 88's again.

New barrel is the MODBB, curious to see how it compares. In particular, hoping the rumors of it cleaning easier are true, and if it gives 50% better barrel life it'll more than pay for itself in the replacement barrel cost alone.
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Nice so I'm at like 100 feet above sea level so I think I'm gonna go with a 7 twist at 26inch. I mean bergers stability calculator says to at least lol.. my question is what is to stable and what are the problems? Like if someone was around 2.5 or more?
 
#853
NFshooter150 said:
Nice so I'm at like 100 feet above sea level so I think I'm gonna go with a 7 twist at 26inch. I mean bergers stability calculator says to at least lol.. my question is what is to stable and what are the problems? Like if someone was around 2.5 or more?
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Too stable can result in larger groups, as the higher RPMs will tend to accentuate minor variability in bullet centers of gravity.

More relevant to you, "more stable" at typical 22BR speeds likely means "blowing up bullets." To get a stability of 2.5 with your inputs (I'm assuming 3000 FPS and 59° F), you'd need to spin the bullet through a 1:5.6" twist barrel, which would yield almost 386k RPM. I would expect those bullets to come unglued; most bullet makers recommend an upper limit somewhere between 300k-320k.
 
#854
KnowNothing256 said:
Too stable can result in larger groups, as the higher RPMs will tend to accentuate minor variability in bullet centers of gravity.

More relevant to you, "more stable" at typical 22BR speeds likely means "blowing up bullets." To get a stability of 2.5 with your inputs (I'm assuming 3000 FPS and 59° F), you'd need to spin the bullet through a 1:5.6" twist barrel, which would yield almost 386k RPM. I would expect those bullets to come unglued; most bullet makers recommend an upper limit somewhere between 300k-320k.
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Ya thanks I want to mostly shoot 85.5s, 80.5s 80 eld 88 eld 90 vld and maybe some 75 eld/vld I just wanna make sure if I go 7 twist at 26 inch that 75s will be alright still
 
#855
NFshooter150 said:
Ya thanks I want to mostly shoot 85.5s, 80.5s 80 eld 88 eld 90 vld and maybe some 75 eld/vld I just wanna make sure if I go 7 twist at 26 inch that 75s will be alright still
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Shorter bullets are easier to stabilize. They also uncork faster, so higher RPMs. If you can stabilize a long/heavy bullet, anything under that will be stable.

Not sure why you want to run so many different bullets, but to each dey own.
 
#856
Ya I mean I'm mostly gonna be shooting 80 to 90 but I also like to chase stuff too with using grt and what not it's half the fun for me lol.. is there any velocity gain in bra over br or is it mostly feeding benefits?
 
#857
NFshooter150 said:
Ya I mean I'm mostly gonna be shooting 80 to 90 but I also like to chase stuff too with using grt and what not it's half the fun for me lol.. is there any velocity gain in bra over br or is it mostly feeding benefits?
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If you're talking feeding benefits, I think you might be thinking of 22GT. BRA is mostly just trying to accomplish more case volume than the BR, but I'll defer to others to confirm. For what it's worth, 22BR feeds fine out of my 12-rd MDT BR mags in my Archimedes, unless I short-stroke it. When I do, the bullet tip can hit the breech face and jam. Other combos of actions, stock/chassis, magazine, and breech design may differ. The CDG I would expect to avoid that issue due to the coned breech, for example.
 
#858
Alright thanks ya I have a 223ai and love it just wanna try a br variant. Gt is too fast for what I want to do. Also since I have bushings from SAC from .245 to .251 I think I should be good.. what bushing do you guys use? And I have the 40° sac headspace comparator which their website says works for 223ai and 22bra
 
#859
Birddog6424 said:
For freebore I've had great luck with .120 to .130". I've pretty much tried everything from .050 in my first 22BR, to .105", and all the way out to .180" running 95gr SMKs in a 22 Creedmoor.

I've burned up a couple 22 Creedmoors, about 5 22BR barrels, and I'm on my 3rd 22 Dasher barrel. All have been .219 bore 7" twist from 22" to 28" in length. I had one .217 bore in a Proof Heavy Palma 22BR barrel and it pressured funny. I dished it off.

I also have a .223AI that is on its 3rd barrel, It's my trainer and I put a ton of 75gr BTHP Match bullets from Hornady through it. I buy those in 6k bulk boxes. They are surprisingly accurate for the cost. Perfect for an inexpensive training round. Or I run an 80gr ELDM when i shoot that rifle in a match. I also use all 7" twist barrels for that rifle.

With the exception of the 22 Creedmoor and hilariously fast rounds cranking 350k+ RPMs, I've not seen any jacket failures with 88gr, 90gr Atips, 85.5gr Bergers, or 75gr Match bullets. I was blowing up the 95gr SMK in my Creedmoor.
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Awesome thanks so would you recommend. 219 over .218? If so why? Just less pressure?
 
#860
Birddog6424 said:
For freebore I've had great luck with .120 to .130". I've pretty much tried everything from .050 in my first 22BR, to .105", and all the way out to .180" running 95gr SMKs in a 22 Creedmoor.

I've burned up a couple 22 Creedmoors, about 5 22BR barrels, and I'm on my 3rd 22 Dasher barrel. All have been .219 bore 7" twist from 22" to 28" in length. I had one .217 bore in a Proof Heavy Palma 22BR barrel and it pressured funny. I dished it off.

I also have a .223AI that is on its 3rd barrel, It's my trainer and I put a ton of 75gr BTHP Match bullets from Hornady through it. I buy those in 6k bulk boxes. They are surprisingly accurate for the cost. Perfect for an inexpensive training round. Or I run an 80gr ELDM when i shoot that rifle in a match. I also use all 7" twist barrels for that rifle.

With the exception of the 22 Creedmoor and hilariously fast rounds cranking 350k+ RPMs, I've not seen any jacket failures with 88gr, 90gr Atips, 85.5gr Bergers, or 75gr Match bullets. I was blowing up the 95gr SMK in my Creedmoor.
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What is the 223AI barrel life like compared to the Dasher/BR?

I know you are running the 75s pretty slow but the case capacity of 223AI isn't that far off 22BR.
 
#865
NFshooter150 said:
So can anyone tell me why someone would choose .219 over .218?
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In general terms, less stress on the jackets. A tighter bore squeezes down on the bullet more than a bigger bore.. Some bullets have thinner jackets than other bullets. Tighter bore and thinner jacket bullets could potentially cause bullet failures when pushed to higher velocities... Also, tighter bore, squeezing tighter on that bullet requires more force to get it down the barrel which in turn means higher pressures....

Again, Im speaking in general terms on whats going on. I personally havent had any issues shooting 218 and 219 barrels. Ive shot both in 22BR without issue.... I did find more forgiving, more consistently accurate results using a 7.5 twist vs 7 twist in my 22BR's.. Same load development, same powder, same bullets, same everything, I achieved more more consistency from an accuracy standpoint and wider nodes during load development with the 7.5 twist... This turned out to apply to 22GT as well.
 
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#866
padom said:
In general terms, less stress on the jackets. A tighter bore squeezes down on the bullet more than a bigger bore.. Some bullets have thinner jackets than other bullets. Tighter bore and thinner jacket bullets could potentially cause bullet failures when pushed to higher velocities... Also, tighter bore, squeezing tighter on that bullet requires more force to get it down the barrel which in turn means higher pressures....

Again, Im speaking in general terms on whats going on. I personally havent had any issues shooting 218 and 219 barrels. Ive shot both in 22BR without issue.... I did find more forgiving, more consistently accurate results using a 7.5 twist vs 7 twist in my 22BR's.. Same load development, same powder, same bullets, same everything, I achieved more more consistency from an accuracy standpoint and wider nodes during load development with the 7.5 twist... This turned out to apply to 22GT as well.
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Awesome thanks for the information! What bullets are you running in that 7.5 twist?
 
#868
padom said:
All the ones Ive posted test results in this thread.

80smk, 80VLD, 85.5 Berger, 88 ELD, 90smk
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What’s your favourite projectile in this weight range?
Have you found any to be easier to tune/more accurate than the others?

The 88gr ELDMs are certainly the cheapest with a pretty good BC.
 
#869
Nice ya I might go with a 7.5 then cause thats the same range I want to use. I did watch some of Greg with primal rights videos and he claims you should always go with the fastest possible, he showed a video I think it was .20 cal but he was around like 437k rpm so idk
 
#870
beetroot said:
What’s your favourite projectile in this weight range?
Have you found any to be easier to tune/more accurate than the others?

The 88gr ELDMs are certainly the cheapest with a pretty good BC.
Click to expand...
I've found in my 223ai that the 85.5 is my favorite I've used 8208, varg, n150, n540 and they all just seem to shoot and it isn't to jump sensitive
 
#871
padom said:
In general terms, less stress on the jackets. A tighter bore squeezes down on the bullet more than a bigger bore.. Some bullets have thinner jackets than other bullets. Tighter bore and thinner jacket bullets could potentially cause bullet failures when pushed to higher velocities... Also, tighter bore, squeezing tighter on that bullet requires more force to get it down the barrel which in turn means higher pressures....

Again, Im speaking in general terms on whats going on. I personally havent had any issues shooting 218 and 219 barrels. Ive shot both in 22BR without issue.... I did find more forgiving, more consistently accurate results using a 7.5 twist vs 7 twist in my 22BR's.. Same load development, same powder, same bullets, same everything, I achieved more more consistency from an accuracy standpoint and wider nodes during load development with the 7.5 twist... This turned out to apply to 22GT as well.
Click to expand...
What elevation are you at? Berger’s calculator doesn’t quite love a 7.5 twist at low altitudes, but does say you can shoot it
 
#872
KnowNothing256 said:
What elevation are you at? Berger’s calculator doesn’t quite love a 7.5 twist at low altitudes, but does say you can shoot it
Click to expand...

Im at 450'

My accuracy has been lights out to 900yd across multiple barrels in both 22BR and 22GT. Switched both of them to 7.5 bartleins and the erratic flyers, difficult load development all went away and everything has been stupid consistent across the same powders and bullets.
 
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#874
padom said:
Im at 450'

My accuracy has been lights out to 900yd across multiple barrels in both 22BR and 22GT. Switched both of them to 7.5 bartleins and the erratic flyers, difficult load development all went away and everything has been stupid consistent across the same powders and bullets.
Click to expand...
Hey so ya I'm really torn between 7 and 7.5 twist. I found the builder I'm gonna go with Taylor from SCR chamber it in 22BRA with a BAT hammerhead action and 26 inch MTU Brux barrel. What dies do you recommend? I'm think the SAC for both sizing and seating. Taylor says 7.5 should be plenty fast enough but man that Berger stability Calc worries me cause with 85.5 at 3k fps it says 1.41.
 
#875
NFshooter150 said:
Hey so ya I'm really torn between 7 and 7.5 twist. I found the builder I'm gonna go with Taylor from SCR chamber it in 22BRA with a BAT hammerhead action and 26 inch MTU Brux barrel. What dies do you recommend? I'm think the SAC for both sizing and seating. Taylor says 7.5 should be plenty fast enough but man that Berger stability Calc worries me cause with 85.5 at 3k fps it says 1.41.
Click to expand...
How much effect does a 3% drop in BC have for you at your max target distance?
 
#878
KnowNothing256 said:
So it sounds like you don’t understand what a 1.41 SG means. But here, here is the difference it makes, assuming 2900 FPS MV and various other things:
Click to expand...
Yes you're right I'm pretty new to this still in terms of bc and stability, I guess I was just reading bergers chart like if you're under 1.5 your bullet might not be stable. Thanks for the help
 
#879
NFshooter150 said:
Yes you're right I'm pretty new to this still in terms of bc and stability, I guess I was just reading bergers chart like if you're under 1.5 your bullet might not be stable. Thanks for the help
Click to expand...
Sure, sorry to be a jerk. If you go back to Berger’s calculator, it’ll tell you how much BC you lose with what they call a “marginally stable” bullet. Their calculator will tell you it’ll shoot, it’s just not an optimized BC, and it’ll tell you how much less BC you get.

You can plug the two different sets of info (7 twist and 0.268 BC vs. 7.5 twist and whatever reduced BC you get per Berger) into a ballistic solver and compare. Short version is: you’ll have to dial slightly more dope and very slightly more wind, and only at the farthest targets.

It’s a very minimal BC impact, consistency is usually more important. That said, I’ve been running a 7 twist and gotten good results, I think you’ll be happy with either. Burn up the first barrel improving the meat sack, then you can decide what to do on the second one.
 
#880
Anybody know of a place to get a barrel? Everything seems to be about 10-12 month lead times.. I'm looking for a 26" MTU 7 OR 7.5 twist. I did find a 6.8 twist bartlein but idk if that's too fast for what I'm looking for. Anyone ever tried the 6.8 twist from bartlein it's also 28 inch
 
#881
NFshooter150 said:
Anybody know of a place to get a barrel? Everything seems to be about 10-12 month lead times.. I'm looking for a 26" MTU 7 OR 7.5 twist. I did find a 6.8 twist bartlein but idk if that's too fast for what I'm looking for. Anyone ever tried the 6.8 twist from bartlein it's also 28 inch
Click to expand...
Looks like Altus sold out of their Bartlein MTUs, but they do have other contours. Also, there’s this site that has Brux MTU blanks, and Eric Cortina says Brux is good to go; I trust his judgment.

 
#882
#883
With a velocity of 3000 that 6.8 twist is 318,000rpm.. thats too fast for me.. from all of my experience and data, sweet spot.has been right around that 290,000rpm range. It's proven way more consistent and less erratic and stupid consistently accurate...

7 twist is 309,000rpm
7.5 288,000 rpm

I shoot my 90smk @ 3030 out of a 28" which is 291,000rpm


Berger has a twist rate calculator for a reason and specifically states you risk possible stability and bullet failure issues when going over that magic 300,000rpm mark..

Just another data point to factor in. That stability calculator isn't the live all be all only data point for me. Experience and all data points matter for me.

From all my testing, right around that 290,000 mark is super consistent at all distances. The drop and wind is whatever it is from there.
 
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#884
Awesome thanks for the input so how do you figure out the rpm? Is there a scale or formula for it? The other thing I'm thinking about to is I don't necessarily want to constantly push high velocities I want to try and find probably a node around 2900 for the 85.5. I mean I might just do the 6.8 if I can get it spun up now and going and then order a 7.5 so hopefully it will be ready in a year lol
 
#889
Ya after now understanding the rpm and what not I think I will go for a 7.5 twist I found a brux from GTaccuracy.. anyone heard of them? I emailed he responded and seems legit and uses authorize.net
 
#890
I have 2x 22br barrels, both 7tw but 219 bore. The Hawkhill has 300 rounds on it, the Mullerworks closer to 800. Running 88s and 90s just under 3k fps w/ varget and they've both been excellent.
 
#891
4O6shootist said:
I have 2x 22br barrels, both 7tw but 219 bore. The Hawkhill has 300 rounds on it, the Mullerworks closer to 800. Running 88s and 90s just under 3k fps w/ varget and they've both been excellent.
Click to expand...


80 SMK, 80 VLD and 88 ELD specifically shot amazing in my Mullerworks 0.219 7 Twist. I could not get consistent accuracy out of the 90 SMK's with that MW.. And thats the bullet I wanted to shoot coming from 220TB shooting the 90 SMK @ 3000 into stupid small groups out to 1000yd for years. Id find a good load at 100, I would then get unexplained, random flyers at distance. Went through many different powders, charges, seating depth tests. I ran into this exact same problem with 22GT.

I ordered 2 Bartlein 7.5twist and had each chambered in 22BR and 22GT. Right from the start, stupid consistent accuracy. No fussing with powders, seating depths, nothing. I had all the exact same data from the MW 7 twist and you would think I was shooting 2 different calibers just going from 7 to 7.5 twist.

I want to make sure we are talking the same results/numbers here. I want to be clear here. I am not saying the MW 7 twist 22BR shot 2 MOA groups or anything unacceptable. It just wasnt shooting consistent 0.1's, 0.2's @ 100yd and 0.250moa or less at distance like my previous 220TB was. And that was the gun I was replacing when I jumped into 22BR so I wanted equal results..

I was still getting 0.5-0.75moa accuracy from the MW 7 twist.. But, I would get 3-4 shots in one hole then a flyer that would open the groups up to 0.5-0.75 consistently and with no explanation.. Thats what drove me to run my RPM numbers and go up to a 7.5 twist..


Here my 22BR 90smk results after switching to 7.5 twist. Initial testing with same everything as the MW 7 twist. I couldnt shoot a group over 3/8" and my final load shoots in the 0.1's.... You can see I have a low node at 28.7gr which is my go to nice easy load which sped up on this new barrel to just over 3000.... I have a high node there at 30.2gr which sped up to right at 3100 but thats too fast for me. My goal when I went to 22BR was 90smk right at 3000fps..


Bartlein 7.5 90smk OCW


t8Y31T1.jpeg







Bartlein 7.5 90smk Seating Depth Test





hb6Itve.jpeg
 
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#892
padom said:
80 SMK, 80 VLD and 88 ELD specifically shot amazing in my Mullerworks 0.219 7 Twist. I could not get consistent accuracy out of the 90 SMK's with that MW.. And thats the bullet I wanted to shoot coming from 220TB shooting the 90 SMK @ 3000 into stupid small groups out to 1000yd for years. Id find a good load at 100, I would then get unexplained, random flyers at distance. Went through many different powders, charges, seating depth tests. I ran into this exact same problem with 22GT.

I ordered 2 Bartlein 7.5twist and had each chambered in 22BR and 22GT. Right from the start, stupid consistent accuracy. No fussing with powders, seating depths, nothing. I had all the exact same data from the MW 7 twist and you would think I was shooting 2 different calibers just going from 7 to 7.5 twist.

I want to make sure we are talking the same results/numbers here. I want to be clear here. I am not saying the MW 7 twist 22BR shot 2 MOA groups or anything unacceptable. It just wasnt shooting consistent 0.1's, 0.2's @ 100yd and 0.250moa or less at distance like my previous 220TB was. And that was the gun I was replacing when I jumped into 22BR so I wanted equal results..

I was still getting 0.5-0.75moa accuracy from the MW 7 twist.. But, I would get 3-4 shots in one hole then a flyer that would open the groups up to 0.5-0.75 consistently and with no explanation.. Thats what drove me to run my RPM numbers and go up to a 7.5 twist..


Here my 22BR 90smk results after switching to 7.5 twist. Initial testing with same everything as the MW 7 twist. I couldnt shoot a group over 3/8" and my final load shoots in the 0.1's.... You can see I have a low node at 28.7gr which is my go to nice easy load which sped up on this new barrel to just over 3000.... I have a high node there at 30.2gr which sped up to right at 3100 but thats too fast for me. My goal when I went to 22BR was 90smk right at 3000fps..


Bartlein 7.5 90smk OCW


t8Y31T1.jpeg







Bartlein 7.5 90smk Seating Depth Test





hb6Itve.jpeg
Click to expand...
That is awesome stuff I mean I think you are dead on! After looking back and checking the MV of my best loads out of my 223AI brux it's right around 290k rpm. It makes total sense and I'm exclusively looking for a 7.5 twist barrel. I wonder if this could be why the 224valk failed like it did because they were way over rpm
 
#893
NFshooter150 said:
That is awesome stuff I mean I think you are dead on! After looking back and checking the MV of my best loads out of my 223AI brux it's right around 290k rpm. It makes total sense and I'm exclusively looking for a 7.5 twist barrel. I wonder if this could be why the 224valk failed like it did because they were way over rpm
Click to expand...

224V failed because they claimed it could do what it never did once it got into our hands... I tested 224V extensively in an AR and I designed a custom reamer for bolt guns to get that bullet way up out the case to maximize capacity to fit more powder in the case and shot on my TL3..

It couldn't handle the speeds they claimed.. The brass was just toast if you tried to push 85/90's past 2850. Can you do it, sure I did it but you didnt get more than 1-3 firings on the brass above that speed. 88 ELD in a 22" Rainier Ultramatch 1:7 AR I would shoot in the 2550-2640 range. Nowhere near the speeds they claimed before initial release...

In a bolt gun, why is the question. So many better cartridges with AWESOME brass out there to shoot 224 90s in a bolt gun with awesome accuracy and long brass life.... 22BR... Hahah
 
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#894
padom said:
224V failed because they claimed it could do what it never did once it got into our hands... I tested 224V extensively in an AR and I designed a custom reamer for bolt guns to get that bullet way up out the case to maximize capacity to fit more powder in the case and shot on my TL3..

It couldn't handle the speeds they claimed.. The brass was just toast if you tried to push 85/90's past 2850. Can you do it, sure I did it but you didnt get more than 1-3 firings on the brass above that speed. 88 ELD in a 22" Rainier Ultramatch 1:7 I would shoot in the 2550-2640 range. Nowhere near the speeds the claimed before initial release...

In a bolt gun, why is the question. So many better cartridges with AWESOME brass out there to shoot 224 90s in a bolt gun with awesome accuracy and long brass life.... 22BR... Hahah
Click to expand...
Haha! The real question I have is who has a 7.5 twist mtu blank they could sell me. Lol
 
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