22 Cal Build - What Flavour?

[Cardboard Assassin]

I have been bitten by the rifle build bug after completing a 6BR. I learned a lot and feel like I need a 22 cal in my life too so am starting to formulate a plan.

Probably gonna do things a little differently this time (different action - thinking Terminus Zeus, different chassis - undecided, Trigger Tech Diamond single stage, different barrel contour etc etc) and am unsure on what particular 22 variant would fit me best.

This will be a fun trainer rifle so would ideally like it to be easy to load for and have good barrel life.

I have a lot of 75gr Hornady BTHPs and 77gr Sierras on hand as well as a good supply of Varget and 8208.

I have looked at:

1) Regular 223 - this would be pretty easy as I already have all the components (brass / powder / bullets). As an added bonus I could use this for local comps (223 being a service rifle caliber) as well as F Class if I wanted (not sure I would as the 6BR is probably more capable but it is nice to have options).

2) 223AI - similar to 223 but I can push the bullets a little faster, less trimming would be welcome too. Not sure if the AI variant is allowed in F Class but thats not a show stopper anyways. The only downside I can see is having to fire form the cases and the barrel life may be slightly less?

3) 22BR - this would be a little brother for my 6BR. Don't know a ton about it but it sounds like an interesting round. From what I have read it should work good with what I have on hand and if it is as accurate as my 6BR it should be pretty awesome. I would expect barrel life to be less than 223 or 223AI?

4) 22 Creedmoor - this sounds like a great caliber but I have almost discounted it due to barrel life (its pretty overbore so I wouldn't expect it to be good - some of the folks I know using 22CMs are saying 2500ish) and having a 6BR as they have similar ability. The folks I know using 22CM pretty much all run 95gr Sierras so doesn't really work with my current stash.

Questions:

1) Does barrel life (all other things being equal) go 223 > 223 AI > 22BR > 22CM? From what I can tell 223 should be good for ~5000 rounds and 22CM is good for ~2500 but what about the other two (223AI & 22BR)?

2) Are any inherently more accurate or easier to load for?

3) What barrel length / twists should I be looking at for the bullets in question (75gr & 77gr)? I did a little poking around and it sounds like 1 in 8 was the best fit, for length I'm guessing 26"+ to get good velocity?

4) Do any of these calibers present problems with magazine feeding / seating depth? I'm guessing not as these are AICS size magazines so there should be lots of room?

Please feel free to chime in with your experiences, any info on freeborn setups for any of these calibers would be appreciated too (still learning about this).

 

[texas_vet00]

Not much help here but I'm headed down the 22 Creedmoor path and going with a 1:7.5 twist at 26". Terminus action and AICS mags.

SAC is builder.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

Not much help here but I'm headed down the 22 Creedmoor path and going with a 1:7.5 twist at 26". Terminus action and AICS mags.

SAC is builder.

if I didnt have 6BR I would probably have a 22CM, from what I have seen it is a very capable cartridge. The folks I know with them are running the same twist & barrel length as you with great results.

Good luck with the build, I just picked up some SAC goodies and their quality is off the charts so I'm sure it will be a beauty.

 

[Keith Maggard]

Might consider the 22 GT

 

[Cfshooter]

regular .223 and use all the stuff you have now. You have good enough powder and projectiles for any matches you want to shoot, and even be competitive with it.

 

[anon]

I was recently wondering what to do with a 22-250 VSSF that I bought back about '94. It's so shot out it just sits in the back of the safe waiting for a new barrel.

My question is similar, but, why do I want a .224 caliber bolt rifle other than a 223/5.56?

I use 223/5.56 for service rifle and F/TR, so I too have components. The 22-250 was the first rifle I reloaded for and I still have the dies and plenty of brass. About the only thing I can figure is a fast twist 22-250 to use up the slow powders I have on hand.

 

[S3th]

Personally, I sold a 6BR two or three years ago that was supposed to be my competition gun. I am currently 99% done with a 22BR (competition & training) with a 6.5CM (training) switch barrel. I am excited for my 22BR barrel to be complete; 88gr ELDM + 29ish grains of Varget is going to make this a cheap and efficient round to shoot A LOT.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

Might consider the 22 GT

I'll have a look - if its like the 6GT its got more HP than the BR and a little less than the CM.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

regular .223 and use all the stuff you have now. You have good enough powder and projectiles for any matches you want to shoot, and even be competitive with it.

Yes, 223 does make a lot of sense. My local range only goes to ~450 so 223 would be a good fit.

 

[Cfshooter]

Yes, 223 does make a lot of sense. My local range only goes to ~450 so 223 would be a good fit.

If I was limited to 450, 223 makes even a better choice. My local is up to 330 yards and I have been having a blast with 223, and saving a bunch of money as it is half the cost of 6mm+ to reload. Accuracy does not suffer one bit vs the bigger calibers at that range either, at least if it is not 25+mph winds.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

I was recently wondering what to do with a 22-250 VSSF that I bought back about '94. It's so shot out it just sits in the back of the safe waiting for a new barrel.

My question is similar, but, why do I want a .224 caliber bolt rifle other than a 223/5.56?

I use 223/5.56 for service rifle and F/TR, so I too have components. The 22-250 was the first rifle I reloaded for and I still have the dies and plenty of brass. About the only thing I can figure is a fast twist 22-250 to use up the slow powders I have on hand.

Do you know if 223AI still qualifies for F/TR? I know the other calibers I'm considering beyond 223 dont.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

Personally, I sold a 6BR two or three years ago that was supposed to be my competition gun. I am currently 99% done with a 22BR (competition & training) with a 6.5CM (training) switch barrel. I am excited for my 22BR barrel to be complete; 88gr ELDM + 29ish grains of Varget is going to make this a cheap and efficient round to shoot A LOT.

I just got into 6BR and so far I'm loving it. Very accurate and easy to load for.

The 22BR should be cheaper to run but it doesn't sound like it would be by a whole lot. 88gr ELDMs are sure to be a little cheaper than 105 Berger Hybrids but there is only 1 grain of difference for powder?

With that in mind would the 22BR be more overbore than the 6BR in which case would probably have worse barrel life? What kind of speeds are you hoping for with that setup?

Anyone know what to expect from 22BR for barrel life?

 

[S3th]

I just got into 6BR and so far I'm loving it. Very accurate and easy to load for.

The 22BR should be cheaper to run but it doesn't sound like it would be by a whole lot. 88gr ELDMs are sure to be a little cheaper than 105 Berger Hybrids but there is only 1 grain of difference for powder?

With that in mind would the 22BR be more overbore than the 6BR in which case would probably have worse barrel life? What kind of speeds are you hoping for with that setup?

Anyone know what to expect from 22BR for barrel life?

I am planning to sit around 3,025fps with 3k+ barrel life. I should be pretty even with 6Dasher shooting 105s.

 

[anon]

Do you know if 223AI still qualifies for F/TR? I know the other calibers I'm considering beyond 223 dont.

223 or 308, no improved.


NRA HP Rule Book, 3.4(b), found on page 68.

F-Class Target Rifle (F-TR) - A rifle limited to .223 Remington or .308 Winchester or their commercial and/or metrification equivalents. Chamber dimensions must not exceed the maximum SAAMI or CIP specifications.

The 223AI would be F-Open.

The first rifle I shot F/TR, before getting a dedicated rifle, was a Remington VLS from about 2003 or so. It's chamber is so big it will swallow a no go guage. The best I can shoot that rifle is 1 moa, and not for all of a 60 round match with wind. I only ever neck sized that brass. The shoulders won't even fit into a Giraud trimmer die. I considered a custom die from him, but just got a Savage 223 F/TR rifle instead. The Savage shoots way inside the VLS.

 

[Campguy308]

Tried 223AI, shot lights out but not worth it IMO.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

Tried 223AI, shot lights out but not worth it IMO.

Due to the hassle of fire forming the brass?

 

[4O6shootist]

I have a 22 creed lightweight hunting gun, it's very accurate with 77tmk and 73 hammers all in the 3500-3700 fps area from an 8tw 22" pipe, runs supressed. Currently spinning a barrel in 22br for prs training purposes. Plan to run 88s and 85 bergers at 2900-3k from a 27" 7tw barrel. I would go with enough case capacity to run 3100 and then run the lower velocity nodes for barrel life.

 

[Campguy308]

Due to the hassle of fire forming the brass?

Yes. And maybe I had a problem or was doing something wrong, but my formed brass length was not consistent after FF.

IMO, the gain is minimal, and not worth it. Some say FF is no problem, and you just have a straight 223. They are somewhat correct, but been there, didn't like it. Not for me.

If doing it again, I'd get a 223 with a throat long enough for the heavies to be seated long enough as to not intrude on capacity. If you want faster, get a barrel that's a couple inches longer.

BTW, my AI brass did not feed nearly as well as vanilla 223 in my rem 700.

 

[Elite_KG]

I’m interested in the faster 22 cals. Just converted my 22-250 to a 1:7 fast twist. Seeing 3,050 fps with 88 gr ELD and 90 gr A-tip running 37.5 gr of N555. I was looking to break 3000 fps. Starting seeing some pressure at 38 grains N555 and the load was slightly compressed.

 

[LR1845]

22BRA….just waiting for my barrel to show up

 

[spife7980]

4) 22 Creedmoor - this sounds like a great caliber but I have almost discounted it due to barrel life (its pretty overbore so I wouldn't expect it to be good - some of the folks I know using 22CMs are saying 2500ish)

If they are lasting 2500 rounds their standards aren’t very high. I’d consider it half that really good. That said it’s awesome.

223 is the sensible suggestion, 22 creed is the bad ass one

 

[Campguy308]

If they are lasting 2500 rounds their standards aren’t very high. I’d consider it half that really good. That said it’s awesome.

223 is the sensible suggestion, 22 creed is the bad ass one

Thats what I was thinking. 2500 is more of a 6.5 creed barrel life.

 

[AllenOne1]

22LR excellent barrel life qualities.

 

[DIBBS]

I'm leaning hard towards a 7-8 twist 22-250 Ackley. I'm set up to load for same.

The 22 Creedmor is definitely a Stallion, but I would be extremely surprised if barrel life is anywhere remotely close to 2500 rounds unless using a 400MODBB barrel. I would surmise it would be more in the 8-1200 round range but have no experience with the 22 Creed.

My 14 twist 22-250 Ackley with moly bullets back when that was a thing had a pretty eroded throat at 1000 rds but was still sub MOA. In this case I did not baby it, and felt the Need for Speed.

 

[Matt_3479]

At the ranges mentioned the 223 is tough to beat for simplicity and plenty accurate! The 223 Ai is just a step up. Load 223 brass, fire in your rifle, and bam! 223ai brass is born. Trim all to length afterwards and you’ll probably never trim them again lol. It give you just that much more of an edge in velocity.

personally I’m considering a 22gt. Something a little more then the br but less then a creed. Might be fun little gun with the heavies. I love my 223 currently but something a little bigger might be fun. Not settled though as the 20br or 20bra is really peaking my interest.

 

[4O6shootist]

22 lrv is also an option from West Texas ordnance. It's a 6cx necked down to 22, 22x47 lapua is also a less overbore choice over the creed. So many choices!

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

If they are lasting 2500 rounds their standards aren’t very high. I’d consider it half that really good. That said it’s awesome.

223 is the sensible suggestion, 22 creed is the bad ass one

Holy - sounds like those folks were being pretty optimistic when they were talking their round counts.

As this will be a trainer rifle to get some good trigger time I don't think 22CM would be a great fit.

 

[Campguy308]

Holy - sounds like those folks were being pretty optimistic when they were talking their round counts.

As this will be a trainer rifle to get some good trigger time I don't think 22CM would be a great fit.

Trigger time heavy use - vanilla 223 slinging 80 Berger VLD is hard to beat.

 

[260284]

Pretty easy to get 3000 fps with the 22BR and 88 gr ELDM and get performance similar to the 6BR or BRA with a 105 hybrid. Cheaper bullets and a little less powder. I have used H4895, Varget, 4166, and Rl16 in my 22BR.

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

I shoot a regular 223 in local benchrest and F Class matches. FTR only allows 223 Remington and 308 Winchester. I'm sure you could shoot the other calibers in F Open class though.

If I were you, I'd build a regular 223. You already have great components for it.

I just shoot a Tikka T3x with the stock 24" barrel with a 8" twist, works great.

 

[Forward543]

.223 is a badass trainer/ comp rifle. It will make you watch your rounds and read wind.
.22 creed is a sweet round for shooting low round count, as it will lose its barrel very fast.
.22BR is cool, and shoots well. It is only a mild gain inside 1000 yards over the .223 and does not have as long of barrel life. Neck turning is stupid. I had trouble in the end of the barrel life getting the brass to stay consistent.

If it were me, .223. Cheaper, easier, and gets you volume practice. Not sexy, but pretty functional.

 

[Nortex]

223ai is one of my favorite setups. I tend to run what amounts to max 223 loads but the ai does so at a little less pressure. Fire forming loads shoot just as well as formed just a touch slower. I have noticed zero difference in feeding between the two options with the accurate brand mags I've ran.

 

[SporterII]

I put 5000 75gr. Amax thru an 8tw. 24” Broughton at 2900fps. Very capable. 223 is a solid choice.

 

[SporterII]

I put 5000 75gr. Amax thru an 8tw. 24” Broughton at 2900fps. Very capable. 223 is a solid choice.

ETA; I would go 25” next

 

[b6graham]

22 lrv is also an option from West Texas ordnance. It's a 6cx necked down to 22, 22x47 lapua is also a less overbore choice over the creed. So many choices!

88/95 at 3150 is no problem with only 37.5ish gr H4350 which is a cruise load

cheap peterson 6XC brass helps too. same price as lapua 223 brass basically

 

[jcwarrior87]

I am kinda a 22 cal nut.

I done .223 223ai 22-250 22-250ai 22brx 22creed

This is my basic thoughts

.223 cost to shot best deal. Long barrel life, easy to buy over the counter ammo.

.223ai On of my favorites, can shoot 223. Give a little step up (about 150 fps) over it on reloads.

22-250. Light bullet monster, great for killing small furry things, bad case growth

22-250ai. The king of Light and fast. Less case growth than regular 22-250.

22 creed. If you are not shooting 80gr plus pills it is a waste. But it is amazing with big heavy bullets.

22brx. Middle ground. Super efficient in short barrels. Low recoil. Fun but a little more work.

I have a 223ai that will always have a home at my house. 900yrds and in it is stupid fun.

Have a 22brx on a 16.5"barrel that is kinda my do all. Kill dogs, compete, just shoot for fun.

But with only having a 450 range. I would have a 223 or 223ai(if you reload go ai) and just start burning barrels.

Going to shoot prs/f-class 22 creed, long barrel set up for 90 or 95 bullets.

Going to just smoke small and furry 22-250 for 50gr ish bullets(reload go ai)


Just my quick 2 cents

 

[kthomas]

I don't have a centerfire .22 bolt gun, just to provide some context. So my answer is worth what you paid for it.

However, as a 6BRA shooter, I'm really intrigued with the idea of a .22BRA.

You can get good velocities with the heavy for cal projectiles, which means you could easily run a ~22" barrel and still have a fairly optimal velocity. If you shoot suppressed, a 22" .22BRA would be a bit more "wieldable" then a 28" 6BRA.

I love my 6BRA - it pretty much shoots itself. It's amazing how automatic that rifle is for printing good groups. It's not picky on powder charges either, in my experience it's been very friendly to reload for. If these qualities translate over to the .22BRA, combined with optimal efficiency in a shorter barrel, I think a .22BRA would be a real killer setup.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

I don't have a centerfire .22 bolt gun, just to provide some context. So my answer is worth what you paid for it.

However, as a 6BRA shooter, I'm really intrigued with the idea of a .22BRA.

You can get good velocities with the heavy for cal projectiles, which means you could easily run a ~22" barrel and still have a fairly optimal velocity. If you shoot suppressed, a 22" .22BRA would be a bit more "wieldable" then a 28" 6BRA.

I love my 6BRA - it pretty much shoots itself. It's amazing how automatic that rifle is for printing good groups. It's not picky on powder charges either, in my experience it's been very friendly to reload for. If these qualities translate over to the .22BRA, combined with optimal efficiency in a shorter barrel, I think a .22BRA would be a real killer setup.

I wish!

Being in Canada our current Liberal overlords feel that suppressors are too risky for Joe Average to own / use.

I cant think of another instance where PPE is denied to the public.

 

[kthomas]

I wish!

Being in Canada our current Liberal overlords feel that suppressors are too risky for Joe Average to own / use.

I cant think of another instance where PPE is denied to the public.

As a fellow Canadian, I feel your pain.

I feel lucky to have a bit more freedoms when it comes to firearms, now living in the US, but there's still a lot to be done for suppressor legislation in the US.

As you allude to, suppressors are PPE, and should be an over the counter purchase like they are in Europe.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

As a fellow Canadian, I feel your pain.

I feel lucky to have a bit more freedoms when it comes to firearms, now living in the US, but there's still a lot to be done for suppressor legislation in the US.

As you allude to, suppressors are PPE, and should be an over the counter purchase like they are in Europe.

It grates my cheese pretty good, to the best of my knowledge only Canada has this stupid policy, even the UK and NZ with their strong anti gun policies still allow suppressors.

I`m convinced part of the reason for the ban is that suppressed guns are much less obnoxious and would be less threatening / scary which would help encourage more folks get into the sport (which our anti gun overlords don't want).

Anyways, rant over.

 

[kthomas]

It grates my cheese pretty good, to the best of my knowledge only Canada has this stupid policy, even the UK and NZ with their strong anti gun policies still allow suppressors.

I`m convinced part of the reason for the ban is that suppressed guns are much less obnoxious and would be less threatening / scary which would help encourage more folks get into the sport (which our anti gun overlords don't want).

Anyways, rant over.

There's also a huge misconception in Canada (here as well), as to what suppressors actually do.

They've been demonized - largely due to how they are portrayed in hollywood and the media.

Absolutely they should be allowed from a PPE perspective, but it would require a huge step change in public perception in regards to these devices and what they actually do.

Anyways, good luck with the build. And if I may, I would highly recommend having Insite Arms complete your build for you. Top notch rifle builders in Canada.

 

[308pirate]

@Cardboard Assassin have you considered the 22-06?

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

There's also a huge misconception in Canada (here as well), as to what suppressors actually do.

They've been demonized - largely due to how they are portrayed in hollywood and the media.

Absolutely they should be allowed from a PPE perspective, but it would require a huge step change in public perception in regards to these devices and what they actually do.

Anyways, good luck with the build. And if I may, I would highly recommend having Insite Arms complete your build for you. Top notch rifle builders in Canada.

Pretty sure I know what you are getting at - there is a perception among Joe Public that a suppressor reduces the noise to imperceivable levels (which just ain't the case) - this is at least in part due to inaccurate portrayals from the outlets you mention.

Insite built my 6BR (or at least sold me the barrelled action - Impact / Krieger combo) and it shoots excellent. I wont get into it but they have been somewhat disappointing for some other items I wanted.

This time around I want to try a Terminus Zeus and as the 4 groove Krieger shoots so well in my 6BR I may go that direction again (via Insite) but I will see how the other issues play out first.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

@Cardboard Assassin have you considered the 22-06?

Honestly - I've never heard of 22-06.

To be fair there are a few calibers mentioned that I haven't heard of (but thats good as I'm open to suggestion).

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

Yes. And maybe I had a problem or was doing something wrong, but my formed brass length was not consistent after FF.

IMO, the gain is minimal, and not worth it. Some say FF is no problem, and you just have a straight 223. They are somewhat correct, but been there, didn't like it. Not for me.

If doing it again, I'd get a 223 with a throat long enough for the heavies to be seated long enough as to not intrude on capacity. If you want faster, get a barrel that's a couple inches longer.

BTW, my AI brass did not feed nearly as well as vanilla 223 in my rem 700.

This part interests me and from what little I do know I feel like it is important to get correct for the reasons you mention.

I'm not an experienced enough builder / reloader to have dabbled in this too much but I'm assuming you are referring to "Freebore" which as I understand it is the part of the barrel the bullet passes through first when it leaves the case before it engages the rifling?

A longer throat would allow for a larger range of bullets (ie heavier / longer bullets) to be used - are there any downsides to having a longer throat? Ie is it possible to have to much throat?

In my mind the bullet is not supported / being guided by the rifling when in the throat area but I know we are only talking about a fractions of an inch of difference.

I would also imagine that with AICS pattern mags (which are quite big relative to any of the 22 cal cartridges mentioned) it would be pretty hard to exceed magazine lenght and run into issues with that?

 

[b6graham]

This part interests me and from what little I do know I feel like it is important to get correct for the reasons you mention.

I'm not an experienced enough builder / reloader to have dabbled in this too much but I'm assuming you are referring to "Freebore" which as I understand it is the part of the barrel the bullet passes through first when it leaves the case before it engages the rifling?

A longer throat would allow for a larger range of bullets (ie heavier / longer bullets) to be used - are there any downsides to having a longer throat? Ie is it possible to have to much throat?

In my mind the bullet is not supported / being guided by the rifling when in the throat area but I know we are only talking about a fractions of an inch of difference.

I would also imagine that with AICS pattern mags (which are quite big relative to any of the 22 cal cartridges mentioned) it would be pretty hard to exceed magazine lenght and run into issues with that?

if you're talking 22CM/22LRV/22Dasher etc you'll never exceed an AICS mag

but 223 throated for 85.5/88/90/95 you may run into issues even with the long for cartridge MDT poly mags at 2.550

 

[308pirate]

Honestly - I've never heard of 22-06.

To be fair there are a few calibers mentioned that I haven't heard of (but thats good as I'm open to suggestion).

I was kinda trolling because I thought no one would ever do such a thing, but I was wrong: https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/22-06-Easling-PO-Ackley-Data/6311

 

[LR1845]

I don't have a centerfire .22 bolt gun, just to provide some context. So my answer is worth what you paid for it.

However, as a 6BRA shooter, I'm really intrigued with the idea of a .22BRA.

You can get good velocities with the heavy for cal projectiles, which means you could easily run a ~22" barrel and still have a fairly optimal velocity. If you shoot suppressed, a 22" .22BRA would be a bit more "wieldable" then a 28" 6BRA.

I love my 6BRA - it pretty much shoots itself. It's amazing how automatic that rifle is for printing good groups. It's not picky on powder charges either, in my experience it's been very friendly to reload for. If these qualities translate over to the .22BRA, combined with optimal efficiency in a shorter barrel, I think a .22BRA would be a real killer setup.

I’m waiting for my 22BRA barrel from PVA should be about another week or so I’ll keep you posted.

i shoot a 6BRA and have for awhile so the 22BRA was the logical choice for me as all I needed was a barrel bullets and a couple of bushings

 

[The D]

Am I too late to chime in? I’ve got a doozy

P. O. Ackley - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Campguy308]

This part interests me and from what little I do know I feel like it is important to get correct for the reasons you mention.

I'm not an experienced enough builder / reloader to have dabbled in this too much but I'm assuming you are referring to "Freebore" which as I understand it is the part of the barrel the bullet passes through first when it leaves the case before it engages the rifling?

A longer throat would allow for a larger range of bullets (ie heavier / longer bullets) to be used - are there any downsides to having a longer throat? Ie is it possible to have to much throat?

In my mind the bullet is not supported / being guided by the rifling when in the throat area but I know we are only talking about a fractions of an inch of difference.

I would also imagine that with AICS pattern mags (which are quite big relative to any of the 22 cal cartridges mentioned) it would be pretty hard to exceed magazine lenght and run into issues with that?

Your understanding of freebore is basically correct. The reamer that was used on mine was a Manson standard 223AI reamer, which was listed as .025" freebore. It worked, but i feel its on the short side for heavies, and is more intended for light and short bullets.

Too much freebore and you can have a long "jump" with light bullets. Too short and you might not be able to chamber heavies without seating the bullet too deep.

As someone stated above, magazine length is also a big concern. I used 80VLD in AICS mags, but had to use a dremel to trim the plastic mag insert to fit the 80s. I can certainly see that being a bigger problem with bullets longer than the 80 grain class. This is one reason I always stuck with the 80 grain class. They are not unreasonably long, and offer solid performance in 223.